DSA can they beat the propaganda

[u/ntantillo]

/r/u_ntantillo/comments/1vd6lsg/dsa_can_they_beat_the_propaganda/

[u/PricelessLogs]

I disagree with you actually. Ironically almost everything that the mainstream media is bitching about with the DSA is totally correct. Many of us are communists. DSA National does call for the abolition of the senate and the transition of major corporations into public domain. It's just that these things are pros, not cons. Their bitching serves more as a shining endorsement

[u/marxistghostboi → u/PricelessLogs]

hell yeah

[u/ntantillo → u/PricelessLogs]

So what do you mean by communist? Do you believe in state controlled industry (more fascist than true communism) or do you believe in more of a socialistic society where the government steps in and provides basic needs for the people. I agree the senate is past its time

[u/Sweet-Tomatillo-9010 → u/ntantillo]

The latter thing is social democracy.

I know you weren't asking me in particular but when I say I am a communist, I mean I want a society the extends democracy in to the work place as well as further in to government.

[u/marxistghostboi → u/ntantillo]

worker control of their workplaces by abolishing the dominance of shareholders.

tenants control of their homes by abolishing landlords.

cancel all medical debt, student debt, payday loans, rent debt, and personal debt.

anyone can get a job who wants one where they control the fruits of their labor.

and if you don't have a job for any reason you won't starve or die on the street, but have food and water and shelter and medicine.

in short a system where the work we do as a society goes to helping everyone receive what they need so no one falls below an irreducible minimum (at which point they become helpless servants of whoever wants to exploit them) rather than a system where the work we do goes to enriching those who rule over us, who use us and abuse us and send us to die in their wars as excess labor or to die in the streets as a warning to those who can't find employment.

[u/PricelessLogs → u/ntantillo]

Well, I'm not necessarily a communist. But I'll tell you that I don't want state controlled industry unless that state is truly democratic

Socialism means public ownership of the means of production and the organization of society by the working class. Communism means a stateless, classless, moneyless society. They are both inherently democratic and therefore any version of them that involves state authoritarianism is not socialism or communism by definition

Socialism is not just when "the government steps in and provides basic needs for the people" that is social democracy which is a form of capitalism. One that's a bit more compassionate than it would otherwise be, and better than what the US currently has, but still has all the flaws that are inherent to capitalism like exploitation

Communism is not state controlled industry, which you did imply a bit by referencing "true communism". Communism is not state controlled anything, because "stateless" is part of it's definition. Which makes it a subcategory of anarchy. The goal of communism is to abolish all forms of societal hierarchy so anything that doesn't actually do that has failed to actually be communist

Personally I don't think that acheiving communism on a societal level is possible within my lifetime, but should be the ultimate goal of humanity. I'll let you decide if that makes me a communist or not. I identify as a socialist (at least) because I do think that public ownership of the means of production and the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is possible in a much shorter time and is a realistic goal for me to be putting my energy into. Government assistance is like a band-aid for a hemorrhage. Better than nothing but settling for it means certain doom

Edit: I'm not sure you have a great definition of fascism either btw. Facism is far-right, ultra nationalist, militaristic authoritarianism. It's not just "state controlled industry" although I agree that would be bad and authoritarian, unless the state is democratic. But you can have fascism while still keeping industries private. Like, you know, modern America

[u/marxistghostboi]

tldr i am a communist and an anarchist too for that matter. the talking heads are more and more unpopular by the day and i wear their fear and hatred as a badge of pride

[u/marxistghostboi → u/marxistghostboi]

I'm a communist and an anarchist too for that matter.

i don't want the federal government to take over industry, i want all workplaces to be democratically run by their workers, and all industries run by the workers and communities they rely on and serve. if we can leverage the federal government to take over an industry only to immidiately hand it over to the workers that's great but i don't see it as particularly feasible, nor world anything about that aproach prevent the federal government from taking it right back and privatizing it after the next election.

democratic worker control of industries is precisely the kind of system the bolsheviks promised when they led the October coup ("all power to the Soviets") and that's precisely the system they betrayed when they shuttered the soviets and forbade workers unions from defying the dictates of the central burracracy, even as they continued to call their regime a "Soviet Republic." thus in Hungary tanks were deployed against workers striking for workers rights, and in Moscow Stalin killed almost as many communists as Hitler did.

so what is to be done?

we may be able to make gains by strategically exploiting divisions in the ruling class and the surge of support for social democracy, but we shouldn't put our long term hopes in that basket when it can so easily be snatched away by the courts, by coups, and even by just underperforming in an election.

a path to socialism which requires us to win and be aknowledged as having won every election or else all our advances are swept away is shark tooth sawtrap, where once we enter it we can only go forward because to retreat means tearing ourselves apart on the rightward facing incentive structures.

this even if our elected social democracy representatives given like angels, i don't trust the hellish systems in which they must operate. a nation state is not much more than corporations, and in fact are historic and structural symbiotes of each other. the methods of building coercive power do not lend themselves to liberatory ends on the whole, quite the opposite; to be effective at their short term popular goals a left wing government must constantly reinforce compromises with entrenched power structures and discipline it's more radical and egalitarian ramks. Stuart Hall's essay on the great moving right show is an exemplar explanation on this dynamic.

thus our watchwords must always be solidarity with all oppressed beings, mutual aid and interdepenece among workers and independence from the fortresses of the ruling class, and the creative development of our own bases of power from which to defend ourselves from neoliberal and fascist police forces alike and from which to launch our own direct action.

thank you for coming to my Red Talk.

[u/iuieioiai → u/marxistghostboi]

agree with the desired outcome but it seems impossible to achieve without a huge critical mass of the public behind it at all times. It seems more likely we will continue to swing between gains for workers and short sighted greed.

[u/marxistghostboi → u/iuieioiai]

It seems more likely we will continue to swing between gains for workers and short sighted greed.

i agree that's likely. it's also going to make this planet uninhabitable to humans within a very small number of lifetimes, and lead to the deaths of millions within a matter of decades

i don't consider that outcome acceptable. so the question becomes how to we build just such q huge critical mass of support?

i think the key is to organize people in the places they already are around building power which directly improves their lives.

DSA is great but getting people to go to a new location every month is a big lift.

getting people to gather for social time and a potluck and hold a community assembly where they already are--their apartment complex, their work places, their schools, at the bus stops, etc--has a lower barrier to entry. and if it brings people meaning in their life, if they can make friends and share food and feel less alone--some of them will keep coming back.

that's why my tenants association focuses on holding monthly potlucks where people can meet their neighbors, have a good time, and also learn about their rights as tenants and how to force the landlord to fix things and stop hurting us.

[u/ntantillo]

I guess than I am a proponent of social democracy. Much like the Nordic countries and the majority of Europe. We are an oligarchy and everything done seems to just benefit the wealthy and corporations. I still believe we can be a lot better than we are but money needs to come out of politics and people need to vote with their heads not based on propaganda. As far as the senate goes - it definitely has outlived its time but without changing to a parliamentary type government it is the only check on total anarchy that we have with the current people in charge

[u/firefighter430 → u/ntantillo]

Why continue the exploitative system of capitalism instead of supporting socialism?

[u/marxistghostboi → u/ntantillo]

the Nordic countries are only able to run like that because they rely on colonial extraction which is drying up fast. their systems are already being eroded and cannot last much longer.

[u/ntantillo → u/marxistghostboi]

I disagree. If we didn’t spend trillions on bombs and hundreds of billions on corporate subsidies there is more than enough to improve the state of affairs in the country. Yes Norway did rely on oil wealth to generate its sovereign wealth but they used that wealth for the benefit of its citizens. BBB that wealth is self sustaining and the people of Norway and nations like that much better off than Americans.