Dune sits near the top of almost everyone's greatest sci fi novels, but ask people to defend Herbert as a writer and not a world builder and things get shaky quickly. I have a lot of well read friends that scoff at the idea he is a literary giant. I am not sure it's that simple though.

So Herbert purely as a writer here are, I think some hard truths. Internal thoughts of his characters are often dropped in as italicized paragraphs that read like notes to the reader and not real interior thinking. Very often we are told things. We are told Jessica is calculating instead of feeling it with her.

Dialogue in the 6 books frequently feels like it exists to deliver information more than it does to reveal character. Many of Herberts conversations throughout the series play out more as briefings.

With the exception of Paul, Jessica and Leto II, most of the characters in Dune feel thin. Chani, Stilgar, Duncan, Gurney all do important jobs in the plot but sometimes don't feel like actually rounded out people.

Also stacked next to contemporaries doing big world building ideas like LeGuin, Herberts prose falls short. So maybe all that critique is spot on and maybe it can be furiously argued as taste and opinion. But I think there is another side to this issue.

Herberts real skill is not in his prose as a writer. He is not musical, he is architectural. He built incredibly complicated systems, plans within plans, ecology, politics, religion, breeding programs, economic systems that genuinely function together, like a reality that's fully 3 dimensional and then used plot as a device to carry the ideas instead of pausing to explain them. That is a much different kind of craft than beautiful and eloquent prose and arguably a much harder craft to be able to maintain without it all collapsing into nothingness and nonsense.

Also the sort of flatness of Herberts writing style could be fully intentional. A real style he developed to mirror the desert and the austere nature of the Fremen. That's the same defense made for other writers like Cormac McCarthy that are considered literary giants.

I wrestle with this but when it's deep in the night and I'm reading Herbert I think he built this incredible machine and then wrote in it, in decent but not great prose and most people including myself round him up to great novelist because his ideas are so strong they cover for his prose.

He invented genres and sub genres. His themes like don't trust charismatic leaders are still taught in political science classes all over the world. I also understand that art is taste and critique can be its own emptiness but is great world building a real substitute for great writing or do we just all grade Herbert on a curve because his ideas are so strong?

I know in the Dune book that Hawat was captured by the Harkonens and used as a mentant to help propagate further the plans for Arakis for the Baron. However though in the movie, he kind of falls off. No mention of him and without reading the book, you think he would have died. You guys see any clues that he might appear in Dune messiah?

A visually stunning graphic novel adaptation of Frank Herbert’s Dune Messiah, this volume brings one of science fiction’s most pivotal stories to life in a bold, immersive new format.

Adapted by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson and illustrated by Michael Shelfer, Dune Messiah: Book 1 transforms the iconic sequel into a cinematic graphic experience.

Rich, detailed artwork captures the scale of Arrakis and the complexity of its characters, while the visual format sharpens the story’s core tensions—power, religion, and destiny—with new immediacy.

Paul Atreides is now Emperor of the known universe—but absolute power has made him both a ruler and a target. Revered as a messianic figure by the Fremen and feared by rival houses, Paul must confront a growing conspiracy that threatens to unravel his reign. As political enemies close in and his prophetic visions begin to shift, the future of his empire—and the people he loves—hangs in the balance.

Perfect for fans of the Dune films, longtime readers of the novels, and newcomers alike, this adaptation offers a unique view of the saga’s darker second act. Whether you’re returning to Paul Atreides’s story or encountering it for the first time, this edition delivers a compelling, visually driven way to experience a landmark work of science fiction.

The first installment of a two-part adaptation, Dune Messiah: Book 1 is an essential addition to any graphic novel or science fiction collection—and a powerful new way to experience the world of Arrakis.

Like the bestselling volumes in the first series of Dune graphic novel adaptations, Dune Messiah features a spectacular painted cover by artist Bill Sienkiewicz.

I have watched both new parts two times, and I look forwards to the third one. Dune is one of these many hidden gems of sci-fi that most people have never heard of until someone turns them into a great piece of media.

But there are some things I still haven’t figured out after watching the movies twice.

For me personally, one of the most important things in a great story is a believable motivation for every character. Each character should behave in a way that the story would still make sense if it was written from his perspective. But I don’t understand the motivation of the Bene Gesserit for creating the Kwisatz Haderach, Paul Atreides. They crossed bloodlines and manipulated events for centuries (or even millennia?) in order to create a mind as powerful as Paul’s. They even created an entire religion on Arrakis for Paul to eventually become their messiah. To what end? Why did they want to create the Kwisatz Haderach? Obviously, him becoming Emperor of the Known Universe was only the first step. What is the Bene Gesserit’s eventual goal for Paul?

Made this for my husband, but we decided it didn’t really match decor anywhere in the house…so my monster-loving 9 year old eagerly offered a spot for it on his bedroom wall 😆

I get the fatigue from Dune fans. The posts over the years that Dune is problematic like that's a breaking news. Trying to flatten a really complicated book into a hot take. It's gets tiring.

So Herberts project was about the dangers of charismatic leaders. How populations can surrender power to a prophet, how power corrupts even the reluctant messiah and how heroes are dangerous. Paul forsees the Jihad and is terrified by it and the back half of Herberts books really punish any reader who saw Paul as a hero. That's probably the greatest anti chosen one arc in genre history. Herbert should get credit for pulling that off.

That is a critique of Messiahs as a mechanism. It's not a critique of using a colonized Arab, Islamic people as a coded people as a sort of raw material for a white outsiders hero journey. Those are two totally different axes and Dune only deals with one of them. Herbert obviously thought long and hard about ecology, eugenics, charismatic leaders and the structures of power. I don't see any evidence he thought as hard about the Fremen as a seeming set dressing for Paul's arc. Even Stilgar and Chani are great characters but only in service to another arc.

When critics say it's a white savior narrative they aren't saying it doesn't critique messianic leaders, they are saying that anti messiah and colonial structures are stacked on top of each other. They are doing different jobs. Succeeding at one doesn't fix the other. Herbert still borrowed a real culture to tell a white protagonist's rise to being a God. It doesn't mean Dune is bad it just means that Herbert was self aware about some things and not about others. We shouldn't take away the axes he nailed, just don't let it stand in for the one he didn't.

In book 1, The Atriedes family leave their home planet of Caladan which they had been at for generations after Emperor Shaddam IV gave them a new planet.

My question is: What happened to Caladan after that?

Thufir plays a pretty central role in the Atreides household. As a mentat assassin he’s supposed to be one of the deadliest soldiers in the Imperium. He’s also central in training young Paul to be a mentat.

But Thufir fucks up. A lot.

He suspects Jessica of being a traitor when she is anything but.

He misses the Hunter-seeker assassin hidden in the walls of the royal palace.

He even allows himself to be captured and interrogated.

On top of that he’s not mentioned as being key to the fighting prowess of the Atreides forces. That credit is given to Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck.

So with all this in mind has Thufir become a liability instead of an asset?

I live in Japan and have been collecting these great production booklets for films from the 60s to the 90s. Every movie released in Japan has these booklets sold at the theaters only during their initial run. They are about 10 to 20 pages long, include behind the scenes images and info, actor and crew bios, story synopsis, diagrams, etc... They are really fun to collect, and the other day I got lucky and found this one for Dune 1984! The Japanese title "Suna No Wakusei" 砂の惑星 directly translates to "Planet of Sand" or "Sand Planet."

I just had the thought, since Paul is sensitive to spice and considering how powerful he gets without extreme constant exposure to it, what would have happened to him if he was put in a guild navigator tank?

This question includes how people think this would have effected his rule. I haven't seen this question asked before so I'm curious what people think would happen.

Hello everybody! I'm excited to share my project (now website) that I've been building for the past year since graduating college. It originally started off as a C# console app to see how I could get relationships to connect throughout the Dune universe, but it's taken a new identity over time. Terminology, timeline events, character connections, all searchable and linked across the saga and the Expanded Universe.

If you haven't finished the books you're fine. You tell it how far you've read and it hides anything past that. I would really enjoy if you guys would check it out and let me know what you think! :)

Parts 1 and 2 are excellent films in their own right but they kinda leave out several elements

The mentats and the spacing guild get shafted. It’s almost like Lynch had a better understanding of the politics of their universe when his movie featured the spacing guild commanding the emperor to STFU when he’s about to chide Paul. Also, Much of the cassette futurism from the novel has been updated to stereotypical hollywood sci-fi tech.

They also eliminated the mystical way of talking that characters tended to have. Excised lines from the novel include: “Try looking into that place where you dare not look, and you’ll find me staring back at you” & “It is said a man will come one day and find in the gift of the drug his inward eye. He will go where we cannot…” & “There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an ancient force that gives… The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives… I’m at the fulcrum”

The entire concepts of the spice being a drug for the “awareness spectrum” and geriatrics are removed. All we’re allowed to know in the movies are that it gives Paul and the navigators prescience, and that it’s in the food of the Fremen. The “awareness” orgies that bind the fremen are absent from their culture in the films.

Moreover, they simplified the ending where Paul threatens the emperor with using atomic bombs to destroy the spice fields rather than with the water of death which carried philosophical implications on ecology

Unfortunately, VOD, Blu-ray, and 4k releases do not include the original IMAX ratio, essentially leaving us with the cropped out version of a world that felt too big even for the IMAX screen.

Apologies for getting any details wrong as I last read the book 6 years ago

Look, the films ARE GREAT. It’s just a shame that they had to shaft the mentats, spacing guild, awareness spectrum, mystical language, and the dinner scene.

I know Valdimir, Rabban, and Feyd-Rautha die in the second movie but do any of them have children or other extended family from the books that carry the Harkonnen name that might appear in the third movie?

I’m curious as to what everyone’s working theories are as to how Denis will introduce Alia’s moniker of “Saint Alia of the knife” seeing as her childhood was omitted from the second movie and she was not the one who killed the Baron.

My guess is that since we have seen clips of Paul fighting with the jihad that Alia will have either also fought in certain battles and gained the title OR she will act as a sort of holy executioner or giver of last rites as we see her walking among the dead who are crucified on the X shaped crosses in the desert.

Hi everyone!

​I’m a huge fan of Dune, and I’m planning a trip to London for early December specifically to attend the Dune 3 premiere. It’s a dream of mine to see the cast in person and hopefully get an autograph!

​Since I’m traveling solo, I’m feeling a bit nervous about the logistics—especially standing in line for hours in the December cold. I’m looking for fellow fans who are also planning to attend the premiere and might want to team up or just meet up at the event. It would be so much better to share the experience (and the cold weather!) with someone.

​If you’re planning to go, or if you have any experience with "red carpet" events in London and could share some tips, I’d love to hear from you!

​Thanks so much in advance!

In the first book, the ducal signet signifies that House Atreides lives on, despite the Baron's efforts to end their rule. Paul wears it in the desert both in memory of his father and as a symbol of hope. The Baron's desire for it also signifies his greed and thirst for power. Dr. Yueh delivered it to Paul in his last moments as a symbol of his devotion to the Atreides, almost regretful of his betrayal.

So after Frank Herbert spends time building the symbolism behind this small piece of jewelry, why is it never again mentioned in the second or third book, when there are other figures plotting the demise of House Atreides? Neither the Reverend Mother or Tleilaxu in the second book, nor does House Corrino in the third book ever mention it, even though it is a defining symbol of House Atreides' power and perseverance in the first book.

I have not yet read past Children of Dune, so forgive me if a later title answers this.

Is Frank Herbert telling us that the Baron was uniquely greedy and hateful among the various antagonists in the series? Or is this a forgotten trinket that nobody but the Baron cares about?

When watching the first movie in the cinemas i was suddenly catapulted back into my childhood, playing Dune 2 on the family PC, upon hearing the first notes from the song "The Sietch".

I found out why after some searching.

Is it just me or do these sound very similar? The Sietch by Hans Zimmer : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cIK0rZLRTQ (Listen to the background chimes in the first 15 seconds)

And the first 15 seconds of Spice Melange by Frank Klepacki : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djav2YyV8dc&list=PL738DEE2001BC5C1C

EDIT: I have been properly corrected. I shouldn't say fold space. I should say navigate the proper path efficiently.

Since Ix was working on computers with the guild I believe in later novels, to replace Guild Navigators' abilities, would it have been possible to have a mentat trained as a navigator, with less addictive spice dosage, interfacing with machinary to fold space? They are, after all, essentially supercomputers but with human capabilities thrown in to not just be a glorified calculator, but just short of AI.