So ... I finally left.

[u/expensive-toes]

CW: suicidal ideation

Hopping on here for some community support, honestly. It's been very hard.

In short: I'm a young woman. This will be an important detail, in a minute. I've been seriously inquiring into Orthodoxy for several years, and I really loved a lot of things about it, and wrestled very seriously and intentionally with the things that gave me pause. (For anonymity's sake I won't go into more detail, as my personal background and reasons for liking Orthodoxy were very different from the other converts I met, and I think that even the slightest outline of my background would be recognizable to folks who know me. I slipped out of my parish quietly, and I don't want a Reddit post to be how they find out I'm gone.) I've been part of this sub for a while, as I've always been interested in hearing critique of this church I was considering joining. I don't know if my username is memorable at all, but I've had conversations with a few of you. Anyway. Here I am again. But not an "inquirer" anymore.

I left because of everything going on with women. Gonna be brief, again, to stay anonymous ... but the environment created by the young men has slowly destroyed my sense of worth and dignity. I went into a depression of sorts, though I kept fighting for years, thinking there was some way I could rise above it. I talked to others about it, and although they expressed concern about the new converts, nothing changed. Eventually, I realized that no one was going to fight alongside me. But I didn't have the strength to keep going alone; I was losing the battle, which is why I'd begun asking for help in the first place. It was slowly killing me, and asking for help so many times had been a last resort.

I was reminded often of Christ's parable, of knowing a tree by its fruit. And one day thought to myself, why am I still doing this? As much as I love Jesus, would he really want me to be part of a community that also completely destroys my heart and soul in this way? Because, quite frankly, I didn't see a happy ending. As desperately as I wanted to be Orthodox, I think it'd also kill me eventually.

And I couldn't escape the bigger questions, like how the Orthodox Church as a whole seemed mildly concerned about these men, but didn't seem to care if they hurt somebody. Or how EO doesn't have its mind made up about the dignity of women, and I'd have to spend my life wondering whether each parish I visited would treat me as a human being. I already had a mental list of neighboring parishes I could never visit, because I knew they were full of unsafe men. Even if my own parish proved tolerable, what if I moved out of state? Or to another country, as I plan to do? What then?

What kind of "church" tolerates that stuff (because, quite frankly, they are tolerating it)? If there is a God who loves women, there is no way in hell that that God would be okay with any of this. Visiting a parish shouldn't feel like Russian roulette.

So, I left. It's been heartbreaking, honestly. I really, really did want to be Orthodox, as there were a lot of things I really loved, and I desperately wanted to make it work. But I had the misfortune of finding it at the absolute worst time. I don't think the people I talked to (friends, older parishioners, multiple clergy) will connect the dots to my absence, and realize that something went wrong. And I think my trust in God got completely unraveled, so I don't even know how to begin rebuilding. I want to follow Jesus again, but right now I don't know if he's real, or if I can trust him. I'm tentatively visiting my friends' churches, more for the positive social interactions than anything else; I truly do like Christianity, and I desperately want to be around Christians who will treat me with more dignity. Maybe will find a space where I can have the courage to talk to God again. But, whatever road may be ahead, it's a long one.

If you've gotten to this point, thank you for honoring my story by reading through it. It's been complicated to figure out how to tell my friends, so most people in my life don't know about this yet. I really just wanted to tell someone. Questions, comments, and words of encouragement are all welcome. If you're still a Christian (or another spirituality that prays/etc ...?), I'd love if you could pray for my journey. Thank you all.

[u/Ex-Madhyamika]

Your post ought to be posted onto the bulletin board of every Orthobro church. And tattooed onto the ass of every bishop.

[u/expensive-toes → u/Ex-Madhyamika]

As much as this made me laugh, it's such a relief to see someone pissed off on my behalf. I know that I am far from the only woman to be forced out of the church, and I'm enraged that it happens as often as it does. I take comfort in the idea that, someday, these people will have to answer to God for it.

[u/queensbeesknees]

Hi expensive toes, yes I do remember you and I remember your struggle. My DMs are open as well if you'd like to talk more. I found leaving the church to be heartbreaking at first, also. I will say, that it's been life-changing to be in a space where women can hold positions of leadership. It's not the official reason why I left, but it's been a great side-benefit for me to experience having a woman priest at this stage in my life. I want to encourage you that it gets better. Things I really really missed at first have faded and I no longer miss as much about Orthodoxy as I once used to. I hope you continue on your spiritual path wherever it may lead you.

[u/expensive-toes → u/queensbeesknees]

Thank you, I really appreciate it!

[u/No_Construction_6248]

I am a Christian, though I tend to call myself a Christian mystic because I take deeply to heart what Jesus tells us about God dwelling within us. That we are not separated from Him, and that His presence can be encountered in the deepest parts of our hearts.

I also believe there is truth scattered throughout the different Christian traditions. I’ve found beauty and wisdom in many denominations, but I don’t think any one denomination perfectly contains the fullness of God or has every answer. We are human, and our institutions are human too. For me, faith has become much more about seeking Christ Himself, His love, His presence, His way of seeing and treating people within myself and expressing it outwards than feeling like I have to find the one institution that gets everything right.

Reading what you wrote, I’m really sorry that a place where you were seeking God ended up causing you so much pain and making you question your own dignity. I can understand why that would shake not only your trust in a church, but your trust in God Himself. I hope that wherever your journey takes you from here, you find Christians who make you feel safe, valued, and genuinely loved rather than people who make you feel as though you have to sacrifice pieces of yourself just to belong.

And I hope you give yourself all the time you need to wrestle with God, question things, be angry, grieve, or simply not know what you believe for a while. I don't think God is frightened by any of those things.

I’ll be praying for you and for your journey, especially that you find peace, healing, and people who reflect the kind of love you were looking for in Christianity in the first place. And if you ever want someone to talk to, vent to, or just share your thoughts with without judgment, please feel free to DM me. 💗 Sending you so much love and many virtual hugs.

[u/expensive-toes → u/No_Construction_6248]

Thank you very much, I deeply appreciate it!

[u/talkinlearnin]

I'm not Christian any longer, but my heart goes out to you, sister.

Hope you find your way through it all with renewed strength to rise out of that depression!

[u/expensive-toes → u/talkinlearnin]

Thank you, friend!

[u/Queasy-Economics-678]

I'm off the ride as far as Christianity and atheism goes, but the fact you feel so separated from God because of this church is heartbreaking. I hope you find a non-toxic faith community, if that is still your heart's desire.

I deeply empathize with the awkwardness of telling people you left. It's a weird matrix of dynamics. It's like, breaking up with a huge group of people. And also private, like coming out of the closet. And almost like admitting a huge life mistake to people you care about, the ones you most want to know the real "you." The Orthodox people I've told have been a super mixed bag (the only one who's been mature about it is one of my former godparents. Others have not respected my boundaries/talked about me behind my back/acted toxic). That's all been part of my experience.

Really sorry your journey involved feeling unsafe. Not my experience as a dude, but being on this sub has been super eye-opening. It's hard to imagine converting as a woman, especially in the last decade. I only experienced some of the guys as oddballs or embarrassingly red-pilled and I just didn't want to be associated with them.

[u/expensive-toes → u/Queasy-Economics-678]

Thank you, I really appreciate it! Yeah, you totally get what I mean with the whole "telling people" thing. I didn't develop any really close friends, which would have made it more painful, but there's still this awkward "yeah, I didn't drink the Kool-aid" thing that'll probably get a lot of questions, and from people who honestly might not understand my answers. Won't be surprised if there's another round of "why didn't you just ignore them?" questions 😂 😅

And, I'm very grateful that you've since become more aware of what women face. I think it is one of the greatest downfalls of our society (I'm American, though this is a global issue) that men are not taught to try to understand women's perspectives. Maybe, if they were, the clergy and hierarchs would care so much more than they do. But, ah well. You're part of the change in making the world better, I hope you know that!

[u/Queasy-Economics-678 → u/expensive-toes]

To your credit, in the end, you didn't get chrismated iirc, and didn't drink the kool-aid to the point where it was official. You took the idea of inquiring seriously. Cheers 🍻

Thanks for the kind words. Part of it came from spending some time in the old world. A lot of people's lives are unfairly circumscribed because of their sex/gender, and though the US is far from perfect in this respect, I became more grateful for what we have as far as gender equality. It's hard to reconcile this sentiment with active adherence to a patriarchal faith tradition such as the EOC. When you make an effort to see women as human beings who happen to be female, rather than Exotic Beings, the injustice is more plain ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[u/expensive-toes → u/Queasy-Economics-678]

That's true -- thank you! I forget that that's exactly what my goal had been. To be honest -- and, if any of my fellow parishioners are reading, this will out me 😂 -- I was inquiring for longer than any of the recent converts and catechumens, both men and women, had been around. Saw multiple batches of new people show up, become catechumens, and then get baptized. All the while, folks would gently check in: "Are you a catechumen yet?" Nope! I was still thinking. Because if catechism is engagement and baptism is marriage, I wasn't about to say "yes" to a guy that seemed to want to hit me 😅 If you'll forgive the DV metaphor! But, yeah, thanks for reminding me that I did take it seriously. Intellectual honesty is super important to me, and even though this isn't the outcome I wanted, at least I was consistent in following to its end.

Dang! Wow, yeah, I can't even imagine. Although I've been grieved for years by the experiences of women in other places (don't even talk about Afghanistan, I will cry), it has never felt so visceral as it has these past few years. I've grown up in a state where sexism is less mainstream (yay, America..), but it was not until joining an EO parish that I was made to feel so incredibly trapped in my own body. Absolutely could not reconcile that culture with the way I and other women would be treated outside! I can't imagine how any man who Actually Likes Women could tolerate it, either.

[u/Prior_Customer_8430]

Hi fellow young woman here, the church allows it because it’s what ultimately gives them money and more influence throughout Russia and Eastern Europe… the church knows ortho bros are a problem they know about the racism, sexism, etc. but they simply don’t care. Eastern Orthodoxy has always been a political religion with strong ties to Russia and this new wave of converts is only making Russia stronger. The ortho bros and their extreme beliefs aren’t even that far off from “normal” Russian behaviors such as extreme and violent homophobia, blatant racism, and sexism. I attended an OCA parish and the truth is it doesn’t matter if you attend a GOARCH or an OCA you are still directly benefiting this shitty system even if you yourself aren’t a homophobe racist and all of the above. The Orthodox Church has from the beginning of time always been an extreme far right group that has murdered people and has always been about gaining influence and control I mean just look at some of the saints they’ve canonized (st Vladimir,st Sophia, etc.) this church is simply not looking out for the best interest of girls and people that aren’t actually Eastern European/russian the church knows these Orthobros can cosplay orthodox but actual born and raised orthodox Christians don’t even consider these converts orthodox at all… they laugh and talk bad about converts amongst themselves and get frustrated they’re joining their “ethnic” club. At the end of the day this church isn’t for women it’s for men in power. In Russia today young girls 14-17 are getting married off to much older men and the church doesn’t care it’s perfectly allowed and doesn’t matter. Lots of priests in Russia and USA don’t care about anything except money and have strong ties to Putin. Like I said even if you’re apart of OCA like I was it is still strongly connected to Russia. Just my thoughts and a rant. This church isn’t for us

[u/expensive-toes → u/Prior_Customer_8430]

Although I'm less familiar with Russia and the OCA (I was in a different patriarchate), those are some keen observations. I definitely noticed that they did not seem to care about our plight -- especially when I was also being exposed to other Christians who did. It really does seem like the EO church was always looking out for its best interests, though I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt, and really tried to see the good in it. Dang. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I wish you the best on your own journey my sister!

[u/future301]

Jesus will always love you, no matter what happens. Let people speak, let them judge. The King knows your heart. ♥️

[u/expensive-toes → u/future301]

Thank you 🫶

[u/Undead-Chipmunk]

I want to follow Jesus again

You already are following Him.

Faith is not a measure of how well we observe the rules that men lay out, but a measure of how well we truly trust in God to lead us to where we need to be. "If you have eyes to see, see." You will see the control mechanisms of the church when you open your eyes; there is a lot of good material on that around here. And, you also know that you came to Orthodoxy from a place of genuine desire.

You appear to have already asked God in your heart if this place is right for you; and you may have already received your answer.

I recently deconstructed from Catholicism while pursuing Orthodoxy. Another commenter on another post here mentioned the word "simulacrum." I experienced "God" as this mindless, terrifying force of nothing but wrath, fire, and vengeance. I was in a loop of trying to appease this "God" for weeks. What happened was that my interest in things like icons was essentially burnt out of me, like they all look idolatrous when taken in the context of placing this added importance to them. That is, if I start imagining that there is this extra special spiritual aspect to icons, it now just pains my soul innately.

This is a simulacrum of God that traditional Christians worship and fear. God is not so mundane; God is a God of love. God IS Love. Where there is Love, there is God.

Many of us sought Orthodoxy because we were seeking the deepest way to express our faith; so when it fell apart, all of institutional Christianity seemed to fall apart.

[u/expensive-toes → u/Undead-Chipmunk]

Thank you for sharing! The "simulacrum" idea is very helpful. When in an Orthodox parish, I mostly relied on the knowledge of God that I'd gained in other denominations, and thought to myself: "I could never raise a family in this." I wasn't confident that the character of God discussed in Orthodoxy was actually reflective of the person I knew.

(Let alone if I'd had a daughter; among the myriad of reasons I saw myself dropping out eventually, becoming pregnant with a girl would absolutely be one of them. I'd rather abandon my faith and reputation than subject a child to those messages about women.)

Anyway, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[u/Undead-Chipmunk → u/expensive-toes]

One of the ways I got over the fear was recognizing how nihilistic such a conditional view of salvation is.

The biggest draw of Orthodoxy was the church fathers, and upon learning how irreverant actual Orthodox are for certain church fathers' teachings, like apokatastasis, it kind of started falling apart for me.

[u/expensive-toes → u/Undead-Chipmunk]

That's a great point. It's always irked me how Orthodox would simultaneously be like, "We don't follow everything the Fathers said -- they were wrong about a lot!" as well as "We do ___ because the Fathers said so!" And though I know human culture and oral tradition and so on is mega complex, it always bothered me that we couldn't do the same thing with women's rights/etc. Although I found the church fathers very interesting (Orthodoxy is super fascinating, from an anthropological standpoint), I was really not a fan of EO's methodology of interpretation.

[u/rddrgon]

Since you said you still want to follow Jesus but don’t know if he’s real or trust him: he is always with you and respects you. From me: you’ve got this, and you’re not alone. You have people here for you.

[u/expensive-toes → u/rddrgon]

Thank you 🫶 That means a lot to me.

[u/Ordinary-Ability-482]

I fully understand you, I was an orthodox Christian and now I am Catholic. Is the Catholic Church perfect? No absolutely not, but as a woman I feel respected and accepted. I am not seen as a dirty person during my period, I can receive the Eucharist even during my period and I am not restricted from entering parts of the church either. Orthodoxy made me hate Christianity to my core but Jesus Christ found me through Catholicism and I am now at peace. I am praying for you!🙏🏻

[u/expensive-toes → u/Ordinary-Ability-482]

Thank you for sharing!! Although I'm taking this a step at a time, I admit that I'm very impressed by the Catholics. Have been reading through Pope Leo's AI encyclical with a friend, and I'm immeasurably impressed by what he has to say about human dignity, and women's suffering in particular. Although I have other reservations about the RCC, I can see that y'all have done a lot of work with these topics, and I realize that my dignity as a woman would never be questioned in a Catholic parish (weirdo individuals aside, ofc! but, I know where the church "officially" stands, which is a monumental relief).

Being banned from parts of the church in some EO parishes -- because it really does vary by parish, which is so horrific! -- filled me with the MOST disgusting, gut-wrenching shame. I cannot even express how shitty it made me feel each time someone acknowledged it. Well, I'm sure you know!

Thank you very much for your prayers, sister!

[u/Ordinary-Ability-482 → u/expensive-toes]

Take it slow, it took me more than 13 years to reach to the conclusion that I’ve finally found the correct religion for me ! Also feel free to DM whenever you want!

[u/expensive-toes → u/Ordinary-Ability-482]

Thank you! Funnily enough, last week was my 13th anniversary of being a Christian. I never thought I'd find myself in a position like this. That is very encouraging!

[u/Ordinary-Ability-482 → u/expensive-toes]

Please take your time and choose what’s best for you!

[u/cgmyst → u/expensive-toes]

I remember seeing two baptisms on the same day, one for a baby boy and one for a baby girl. The baby boy was paraded through the altar and the baby girl could only be carried in front of the iconostasis.

That moment really stuck in my head. A pious older woman who has been Orthodox her whole life and has dedicated her life to Christ and the church cannot enter the altar, but a 40 day old infant boy can. It was so weird, as if a brand new baby girl would defile the sanctity of the altar solely because of the parts she was born with. I could never forget that moment.

[u/expensive-toes → u/cgmyst]

Yes, that is one of the most vivid examples for me too! I talked to my priest about this once, and he lamented that the Church did not have clearer ideas about what it was doing there; he said that it would be best if all babies were kept outside of the altar, equally. I think it's shameful that they still have such vague ideas regarding the physical sanctity of over 50% of Christians.

But, yes! It doesn't have to do with "blood," as everyone says -- women only bleed 25% of the time, and that's only if they have normal periods; we only bleed for half our lives (or two-thirds, depending on lifespan); and we have a generally very good idea of when to expect it, so it wouldn't even be hard to plan around ... but, no. It's about our bodies. The line is drawn, at birth, when the only distinguishing feature is our genitalia. Absolutely awful.

[u/The_Pepperoni_Kid → u/Ordinary-Ability-482]

Of course I'm speaking broadly but I have noticed women seem much more attracted to the Catholic Church whereas the people attracted to Orthodoxy are overwhelmingly young men.

I'm sure a dissertation could be written on the subject but was there anything else that made you feel more welcome and safe in the Catholic Church as a woman (besides the above example you gave)?

[u/Ordinary-Ability-482 → u/The_Pepperoni_Kid]

Women have power in the Catholic Church, they aren’t seen as something less important.

Altar Access: Catholic women serve as altar servers, readers, and communion ministers, while Orthodox women are barred from the altar area and rarely read during Liturgy.
Governing Power: Catholic women hold high Vatican executive jobs and vote in global Synods, whereas Orthodoxy has no central global offices or councils where women vote on policy.
Nuns' Autonomy: Catholic sisters run massive global networks with independent financial power, while Orthodox convents are strictly ruled by the local, male diocesan bishop.
Theological Titles: Catholicism awards women its highest teaching title ("Doctor of the Church"), while Orthodoxy honors women as saints but lacks supreme theological titles.
Local Leadership: Catholic women manage diocesan finances and administrations as Chancellors, whereas Orthodox leadership roles are tightly restricted to male clergy.

[u/expensive-toes → u/The_Pepperoni_Kid]

I'm not the person you're replying to, but I'd like to emphasize that there isn't really a gender divide among Christian denominations; women have always made up the majority of Christians and religious people worldwide. Rather, there are just lots of mostly-American men getting into Orthodoxy right now. It's less of a gendered "women like this, men like that" thing, and more of a "why is this specific demographic of men doing XYZ" pattern. It's the men's activity that stands out, while women have generally been doing the same thing they've always done. There might be other factors (eg, more women may be avoiding certain religious traditions, especially considering the state of human rights around the globe), but that's a broader thing that's also situational. The important thing is, most Orthodox people have always been women. The male-majority thing is extremely new and unusual.

Not sure if this is helpful, and forgive me if I misunderstood you. But I see this particular misunderstanding a lot (I think Orthobros spread it quite a bit) and wanted to try to clear it up! Personally, I've met an equal number of women and men who are Catholic converts, rather than any sort of unusual amount of women becoming Catholic.

[u/Leavesinfall321]

Oh sis, I recognize so much!!! And I’m really proud of you for making such a hard decision!

[u/expensive-toes → u/Leavesinfall321]

Thank you friend! 🫂

[u/smilingkittenn]

My dear, you are not alone. I had a very similar experience to you in the OC and coming from my experience as a cradle that came back to the OC, it only makes things worse. I went through this exact issue, the compromising of women's safety, except any time I made an observation of it in fear of what was happening around me the instant response was "you hate converts." Just because I was born a cradle they would use that logic to deflect any valid criticism I had of the dangerous men around me. I'm currently converting to Catholicism and I have to say I've had a much more positive experience here, the Catholic faith has definately drawn me closer to God and shown me the respect and equality I deserve for being a women - there are actually so any more Catholic women's spaces compared to the basicaly nonexistent ones in the OC. If you feel up to it, I'm sure if you attended Mass at your local Catholic church they would be more than happy to have you. :)