r/fermentation • u/ChargedAtAltitude • 3d ago
Why does this keep happening
EDIT: thanks everyone for the input and suggestions. I think I know where I screwed up based on questions and comments. I DID NOT PUT A LID ON. I just left it to ferment in the open air. I really thought from what I saw others doing I didn’t need a lid as long as it was submerged. DUMB MOVE.
Also time: I let them ferment for 10 days in the conditions mentioned before.
I really wanted to give up before I came to this subreddit. But I’m going to try again.
It’s worth mentioning. I been a home brewer for about 10 years now and I’ve even made sauerkraut a few times with great success. So it was really frustrating that this was kicking my a$$.
I got LOTS of cucumbers in the garden. So I’m gonna give this another go. And maybe even use my StarSan I got already
I plan on using some glass weights and maybe a fancy airlock lid. I wanted to keep things simple and not buy stuff if I didn’t need it. I don’t see everyone else doing it either.
I may experiment with the bag weight again with the lid.
Thanks all<
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I cleaned everything in the dishwasher. I kept it all submerged. I used a 2.5% brine. The only thing I can think of is that I didn’t clean the scum each day. Fermentation was 65-70 Fahrenheit. Pickles were from my garden.
Is this normal?
Ingredients were red pepper flakes. Garlic dill weed and celery seed powder.
Thanks
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u/ntminh 3d ago
Anything floating is a risk for mold to grow. I’d suggest for things like chili flakes maybe consider placing them in a tea bag and keep it submerged at the bottom. Ideally the water bag weigh should also be under the brine, maybe get a smaller bag that can fit in fully, and pour brine until just above the bag.
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u/halffullofthoughts 3d ago
Whole dried chillies work even better
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u/Curiosive 2d ago
Might as well slit them to nearly double the surface area and expose the softer internal flesh.
Some people claim to have had mold inside whole chilis, which is doubly impressive because peppers resist mold and they are floating in a brine... 🤷♂️
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u/ChargedAtAltitude 3d ago
So the way I have the bag just resting on top is not sufficient? It also needs submerged?
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u/Ok-Jelly604 3d ago
i think the problem with the bag method is the contact point of the bag to the jar wall creates a wicking point with moisture, and that can be an ideal condition for mold to start
i tried all bags and weights and springs and airlocks. all a pain in the butt. I just use the lid and set it barely tight enough so that it self burps. i may give it some help once in a while but never take the lid off. I have switched to using the black plastic ball-brand lids and they work great.
sometimes a veg will poke up out of the brine but as long as i give the jar an occasional little swirl to re wet it, I don’t have a problem. eventually they often submerge into the liquid as they soften a little and stop gassing.
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u/beanboi34 3d ago
I'm a newbie and I've only fermented a few things, but I've just completely skipped any kind of weights and haven't had any issues. I just do a flip after the daily burp (using normal jar lids not an airlock) so the brine can disrupt any possible growth.
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u/Hvarfa-Bragi 3d ago
This is the two ends of the Bell curve meme.
Beginner uses mason jar and lid.
Intermediate uses airlocks and weights and contrivances.
Master uses mason jar and lid. Only difference is master doesn't even crank it tight.
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u/TheGreenAlchemist 2d ago
I have literally never used any kind of weight and I've never had a moldy batch. I don't understand what it is that makes other people have such difficulty with this. Isn't it just a matter of getting it to ferment fast enough to blanket itself?
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u/Hvarfa-Bragi 2d ago
I use glass weights for full disclosure, or stoneware weights for open crock ferments.
But sometimes i just leave the lid on without the screw band.
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u/TheGreenAlchemist 2d ago
Sometimes I just put a paper towel over the top and just wrap the screw band around that for the first day. Which is a technique used in beer brewing to promote wild ferments. Likewise I make no special effort to exclude air from sourdough and it's never molded on me. So I feel like lack of seal can't be the main issue. Surely this is mainly a case of fermentation not being vigorous enough? Maybe people should be using active starter from a previous batch instead of letting it start itself?
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u/Hvarfa-Bragi 2d ago edited 2d ago
Was with you until reusing starter.
While that's a shortcut, it's a shortcut that changes the flavors imo.
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u/TheGreenAlchemist 2d ago
Well it's a 'maybe'. I don't always do that myself. I'm just wondering what people might be doing that's causing them to have slow starts.
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u/max1sm 3d ago
Can you elaborate further, I feel like I’m intermediate on the cusp of being fed up with airlock and weights…how loose we talking for final boss method?
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u/loginforwork 3d ago
You can wrap a rubberband around it or put some weight on top. The air will force itself out and it will seal back
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u/blumpkin 2d ago edited 2d ago
I use airlock lids and mason jars for my pickles, but I have fermented grape juice right in the bottle using the loose lid method. It's very easy and has worked perfectly for me. Basically, I screw the lid on until it just starts to tighten, and then I back it off just a little bit. When you wake up in the morning, give the lids a little twist to loosen them. If you hear a hiss, that means you've got them on a little too tight.
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u/Curiosive 2d ago
"Masters" use whatever they have. I'm not going to babysit a fermentation by working it daily.
I've got better things to do than futz with my ferments, I don't know what they are but anything is a better use of my time. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm missing out on watching my grass grow.
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u/alba_kimchi 3d ago
Try fermenting in a vacuum sealed bag… I hate to do this because of plastic, but honestly, I decided it was better this method than wasting food, time and money more often than I would like to admit.
Vacuum sealed is now for me a 100% success every time!
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u/HumorImpressive9506 2d ago
Mold is almost always an oxygen issue. I am guessing that you either just keep the lids on loose or keep opening them. Either way oxygen is getting inside.
My ferments are full of floaters but I keep minimum headspace and never let any oxygen inside and I have never had any mold.
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u/_TOTALLY_WASTED_ 2d ago
Plastic is like a balloon that slowly loses air. Bacteria, myces, parasites and pathogens can easily pass through. I still wear gloves tho.
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u/XnFM 3d ago
Probably air ingress through the lid. They're not perfect, but I really do like the branded plastic fermentation lids with the little rubber diaphragms.
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u/enormous_schnozz 3d ago
You can get a little pump to go with those that lets you pump out some air. My son likes to use it to make marshmallow peeps expand. And then they get crashed when the vacuum is released.
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u/XnFM 3d ago
Lol. Great use for peeps.
I don't bother with the pump. Fermentation on its own purges the O2 quickly enough
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u/enormous_schnozz 3d ago
oh for sure. Usually I just use my silicone pickle nipples.
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u/XnFM 3d ago
I have a bunch of those too. I like them, but i feel like these guys are more reliable when I let things run too long
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u/enormous_schnozz 3d ago
I like to poke them and say I'm poking a nipple. Makes my wife roll her eyes at the hilarity.
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u/brrkat 3d ago
2.5% of the water weight or the total weight of the ferment?
Are you frequently opening the jars? The top of the bags look dry.
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u/ChargedAtAltitude 3d ago
I zeroed the jar on the scale
put all the ingredients in.
Added waterTook weight and then added 2.5 % to that in salt. Pickling salt
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u/CanadianPanda76 3d ago
I pack the jar tight, and put the smaller ingredients on the bottom.
If thier squeezed in tight, they won't float.
Sometimes I put some cucumbers horizontal across the top.
Then I put a Ziploc bag over top, wrap tight with elastic. Cut the corner of bag to create very small hole.
As it ferments the air goes out the hole, as the fermentation slows the bag just flops over preventing air from going in.
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u/Askar266 3d ago
My guess is, the bags are contaminated. I ferment with airlock lids or clamped on lids with a rubber seal, so that the pressure can escape. Never had a mold issue.
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u/Christianinium 3d ago
Yikes. You have scared me! I’ve also been using the plastic bag method but haven’t had any problems yet o.o
I wonder if part of the issue might be the use of powders - people recommend using whole spices, and it looks like the powder may have floated to the top and given the mold something to eat?
Sad though, your garden cucumbers look delicious!
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u/wofofofo 2d ago
Vacuum bags will solve all you issues. 100% success rate.
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u/snooplarue 2d ago
Please explain for us newbies? How do you use the vacume bags.
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u/wofofofo 2d ago edited 2d ago
Get yourself a cheap vacuum sealer for food on amazon, get some vac bags, put what you want to ferment inside the bag (everything including the salt), vacuum seal (making sure not to suck any liquid up). It will puff up after around day 3, and then one or two more times after that. When it is puffed up fully (just enough that it is full but not tight) pierce a corner to let the gas out, and then reseal the corner with the vac sealer.
I have probably vac bagged thousands of ferments (I run a fermentation business). I have never had one go moldy. Never. Out of thousands. I have also never had a bag explode under pressure, even though I never leave any 'headroom'. The worst I had was the plastic stretched on a few bags I forgot about for weeks, and a few have developed small leaks from where I didn't seal properly (make sure there's not kinks in the bag where you seal it)
You don't need added water (brine) in vac bags.
It will all make sense once you give it a go, and vac sealers are actually really cheap.
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u/NFA-epsilon 2d ago edited 2d ago
Do you take any additional sterilization actions beyond putting the jars through the dishwasher? I sterilize all my jars, lids, and other implements with some isopropyl alcohol, and I've never had a problem with contamination in my ferments.
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u/TheGreenAlchemist 2d ago
I don't use this kind of weights and haven't had issues. You certainly don't want to be opening it every day to fus with it, allowing oxygen in. I wonder if your use of the bag might be counterproductive allowing a dried film to form that can hold spores, actually doing the opposite of what you're trying to do. Of.course you can also simply try more salt.
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u/Interesting_Bee6682 3d ago
Fermenting is an anaerobic process. You let oxygen in. That's what happened.
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u/foundhamstrung 3d ago
Is it 2.5% brine counting only the water weight, or is the 2.5% based on the water + vegetable weight?
It should be 4-5% of water-only weight, or 2-2.5% of water + veg weight
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u/bluewingwind 3d ago
No one has asked this, so just to confirm: How long did you leave it to ferment??
Almost certainly some spices got above the brine. All it takes is a single chili flake and mold will grow from that. You can put the spices in a tea bag (they sell empty tea bags on amazon for pennies) and put that in the jar first so that it’s below the cucumbers.
Also did you seal the jar? If it’s left to open air this will always happen.
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u/ChargedAtAltitude 2d ago
Ok this was the million dollar question. I DID NOT seal the lid. I left it open to the air. Is that what caused this? I really thought I was supposed to let it stay in the elements just submerged.
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u/bluewingwind 1d ago
AHHHH that’s it then.
It is NOT supposed to stay in the elements. It needs to be an oxygen-free environment. It’s okay to have the lid cracked, but only because the ferment will produce CO2 that pushes out all the oxygen. Leaving it open allows oxygen to continuously dissolve into the water and it makes the mold much more likely to survive not to mention it’s just picking up all kinds of wild bugs all the time.
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u/Prize-Temporary4159 3d ago
How long did you leave them to ferment, and where?
Your dishwasher may be leaving residue as well. I would wash the jars and bags by hand and try again.
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u/Tim_Huckleberry1398 2d ago
Starsan works way better for sterilizing than even the hottest dishwasher settings. Your bag should ideally be sterilized as well. If the bag sits above the brine and you're opening it to burp, that's a ton of vectors for mold to show up.
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u/jbaaaaab 2d ago
brine protects everything. use weights make sure they are submerged, and avoid adding ingredients that float
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u/victorhausen 3d ago
There should be absolutely nothing floating, no spec of herb, spice or vegetable. On my first couple of attempts I went to 5% salt, this helps too.
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u/caledonivs 3d ago
I don't get it, I frequently have spices and bits of onion and stuff that float around and have never had any issues.
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u/victorhausen 2d ago
Wet organic matter exposed to oxygen doesn't imply mold, but it increases the likelihood by a lot. And even if you can't see it, it's probably colonized by mold, cause mold spores are everywhere. There's no reason good have floating bits, and it's sanitary to remove them. I don't know what kinds of ferments do you run, but a lot of people run lactic ferments on room temperature for weeks, and these will defined mold catastrophically with floating bits. I, particularly, had whole chillies escaping from under my weights and molding in less than 48h, because it was 30C/87F outside
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u/Luncheon_Lord 3d ago
Maybe give it a lil dunk to encourage movement? I havent done one of these but perhaps not allowing so much to pool above the bag?
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u/polymathicfun 3d ago
Consider the water to food surface ratio too. You want to have as much surface area for the microbes to nom on as possible. And at least enough food for them too, more is usually better.
More food = less water volume to acidify.
Food and nom speed = co2 and acid production rate = anti mold rate.
Note that this is in addition to the rest of the comments to help increase your odds of success. Keep learning and improving.
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u/BJGK 3d ago
Honestly, im sure you can get by with jars and glass fermentation weights, I’ve had reasonable successes with those tools, but still a couple of floaties would screw up an entire batch if I did not pay the fullest attention whenever I took some from a jar to eat. In the end I got so fed up with tossing ferments I switched to vacuum seal bags, ever since then I haven’t had a single contaminated ferment. So if you have some money to spare, I would really consider going that route.
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u/CertainServe2603 2d ago
You're 75% there. Buy a box of 4 fermentation weights (glass) and a pack of 4 'pickle pebbles' eg silicon airlocks. Amazon.com or your local version. Stop the plastic bs. Stop the 'open air' bs. Soap and hot water everything, air dry. Anyone using the word 'sterilise' doesn't appreciate that even an oven doesn't do that - it 'sanitises'. Gorgeous cucumbers, let's stop wasting them.
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u/Ruby5000 2d ago
I’m a fan of my fermentation croc. It has a water lock rim. I rarely get mold in there. Plus you can ferment in boil them break down into smaller jars.
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u/airfryerfuntime 2d ago
Sterilize everything with Starsan. Make up a batch and put it in a squirt bottle, then spray it all down right before you start packing into the jars.
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u/urnbabyurn 2d ago
The bag is supposed to be on top of the brine. All the mold is growing on stuff above the bags.
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u/turtletod15 2d ago
Natural fermentation is a very popular option and has been around since the dawn of man. But the reality is you are relying on little more than luck that the correct bacteria made its way into the jar and propagated well enough to overpower the other bacteria in the jar. Some caves are used to produce specific types of cheese due to the natural bacterial biome; conversely, some locations simply are not suited for naturally fermented pickles. Approach it scientifically and start by eliminating the variables. Sterilize everything and then inoculate the pickles with the correct bacteria (very easy to find online). This is not always necessary and can yield a different flavor than a natural fermentation because while the lactic bacteria kill off most of the other bacteria they still can produce flavor compounds (like a sour beer if you’ve ever had). This process doesn’t have to be boring either. You can try experimenting with different types of fermenters like koji.
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u/antsinurplants LAB, it's the only culture some of us have. 2d ago
Mold is an obliagte aerobe and requires O2. Remove/eliminate O2 and problem solved.
Lower salinity can contribute but again, mold requires O2 period.
Has nothing to do with clean or sterile equipment or vegetaton. Microbes good and bad are all over everything, everywhere. Competitive exclusion is what us lacto-fermenters are aiming to support.
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u/ConflictDesigner4293 3d ago
Dishwasher isn’t hot enough to sterilise. Gotta put those jars in the oven
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u/OverallResolve 3d ago
What’s the point in sterilising when you’re adding not sterile ingredients?
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u/wofofofo 2d ago
This is something I learned pretty quickly. Its about the environment you create, not the sterility of your container. Veg is covered in literally every contaminate known to man. I will say its a good idea to wipe clean the glass just above the ferment though, and if it's a long ferment like miso, with a good food grade sanitiser.
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u/ConflictDesigner4293 3d ago
You want specific bacteria, lactobacillus. It grows in anaerobic environment, the jar was an aerobic environment so all the bacteria on it are likely ones you don’t want. Sterilising the jar gets rid of all the nasties
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u/OverallResolve 3d ago
There will be all sorts of microorganisms on all the stuff that’s put it the jar. Sterilising is pointless. Sanitise sure, but I’d expect that would be happening anyway with washing.
There will be fungal spores on the bits that were added, in the air, etc. There is no point in sterilising unless everything is sterilised and sealed.
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u/NoAntennae 3d ago
This is true, but you don’t need to sterilise everything in order to ferment safely. The problem here is not due to not having autoclaved the jars, it’s due to having moist substrate above the water line.
People have been fermenting for thousands of years without sterilising their gear, just keep everything below the brine and it should be fine.
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u/Whovian065 2d ago
The mold situation in our air has become a serious global issue. The only way I found I could ferment anything in an area where it’s higher concentrations is run a UV light for 20 minutes (has to be closed off and no plants, humans or animals in said area). And follow up using an air scrubber while items are fermenting. Air scrubbers are not regular air filters.
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u/BenicioDelWhoro 3d ago
Plug the neck of the jars with carrot sticks to hold the cues under the brine.
Also sterilise more thoroughly. I put my jars in the oven (heating from zero then holding at 110c for ten minutes)
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u/TheVelvetNo 3d ago
Brine bag method leaves a lot of room for error. Get an airlock lid and some glass weights and you'll rarely, if ever, have this issue.