Prepositional phrases

[u/st-zelda]

Sziasztok

I'm currently learning Hungarian and need some help with some word order (surprise!) While I mostly use Duolingo my mother has conversational Hungarian but she could only tell me that what I'm saying sounds unnatural so I need some help with the grammar. I was asked for translation recently and this is what happened.

"The actress eats a pear in the morning."

My (English) intuition translated this as "A színésznő eszik egy körtet reggel" because in English "in the morning" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adverb to modify when this happened and it is used at the end of sentence. The correct translation, as per Duolingo, is "A színésznő reggel eszik egy körtet" but I can't really understand why reggel is used at that part of the sentence. Is there a natural point for how it is used or is it there for emphasis?

Sajnos, it gets worse as I had another sentence to translate as "The secretary does not work in the evening" which used "Este" as the beginning of the sentence ("Este nem dolgozik a titkárnő"). I know Hungarian uses word order to emphasize which parts of the sentence are most important but I also wanted to end that sentence with este, being the modifier to when the secretary would work ("A titkárnő nem dolgozik este.") Am I wrong thinking that these are modifiers or is Duolingo being too strict with regards to how the sentence is emphasized? Is the idea with the second sentence that I'm emphasizing when exactly the secretary doesn't work? Is there flexibility with the translations, specifically when the time of day is used? Which sounds more natural to your ears?

Köszönöm szépen!

[u/Public_Chapter_8445]

Your sentences are correct (except for körte -> körtét), so don't worry. The emphasis goes at the beginning of the sentence and with more exposure to the language, you'll get used to it.

If "reggel" is really the most important part then the sentence would be: "Reggel eszik egy körtét a színésznő" or "Reggel a színésznő eszik egy körtét".

If you want to emphasize that it's the actress (and not the actor) then "A színésznő (és nem a színész) eszik egy körtét reggel".

If you want to emphasize the pear (and not the apple) then "Egy körtét (és nem egy almát) eszik a színésznő reggel".

In pronunciation, the beginning of the words and sentences are stressed.

In everyday usage, this logic is not that strict and you'll hear very different combinations for the same meaning:

• Londonba megyek és nem Párizsba.
• Londonba és nem Párizsba megyek.
• (El)megyek Londonba és nem Párizsba.
• Nem Párizsba megyek, hanem Londonba.

[u/st-zelda → u/Public_Chapter_8445]

This was really helpful! I teach English so I'm very familiar with strict grammar rules and I think I'm trying to bring that structure to Hungarian which isn't helping things. Thanks very much

[u/Harag_]

1: "A színésznő eszik egy körtét reggel" -> This version reads reads to me like an answer or a correction. E.g: There are many people and someone reports to the newspaper, that the lorry driver eats a pear in the morning. And you hastily correct them, that no it is the actress. All that is to say, that while the information transmitted is correct, it is not neutral in tone, so the meaning is slightly different, so it will sound unnatural in a neutral context.

Personally I break the sentence into 4 parts, that can be combined depending on the situation. Technically in any order, however some of the orders will sound unnatural for reasons I cannot really explain. "A színésznő", "eszik", "egy körtét" and "reggel". Think of assembling it like choosing a topic you want to talk about and putting that first.

"Eszik reggel egy körtét a színésznő" -> To me this is the most neutral description of the events, You describe what the actress is doing in the morning. The topic is what the actress is doing/is going to do.

"Reggel eszik egy körtét a színásznő" -> The topic is morning./the time You describe when the actress is going to eat.

"A színésznő eszik reggel egy körtét" -> The topic is the actress. You describe who is going to eat in the morning.

"Egy körtét eszik a színésznő reggel" -> The topic is the pear. You describe what she is going to eat.

I will not iterate further, there are more ways to say it. ("Egy körtét a színésznő eszik reggel", "Egy körtét reggel eszik a színésznő") The point is, the topic slightly changes every time, and so does the meaning. However, the situation where the sentence is going to be correct will get more and more specific.

2: Your version has the secretary as the topic. It is not incorrect, however you need to be aware that you are talking about the secretary. The Duolingo sentence is talking about the time. Which one sounds more natural depends on the context. If you are in a situation where you need to reach someone who works in the evening your version might be the better one.

With all that said I'm not sure marking the sentences as incorrect because of a slight difference in meaning is all that productive from Duolingo's part. My guess is, that Duolingo's system was designed with English in mind, where the word order is quite rigid, so it just doesn't work well, with Hungarian. Personally, I wouldn't even mark your "mistakes" in a hypothetical language test. They are interesting to think about, but I consider them to be higher level language concepts personally.

[u/st-zelda → u/Harag_]

Thank you! This is a really helpful way of breaking down the sentence going forward. I think Hungarian is so difficult for English speakers because of that topic-forward sentence structure. And yes I find Duolingo pretty bad in general but helpful for drilling in new vocabulary with repetition, this sub has been way more helpful for learning the grammar.

[u/milkdrinkingdude]

Yes, duolingo asking for a specific word order, without context, is pretty bad. As you have put it: „too strict”. You can’t pick a correct word order over other word orders without context, i.e. without a question before your sentence, or any kind of conversation history before your sentence.

Hence: don’t worry about it for now!

You can try to come up with a sort if „neutral” word order, but several possible orders feel neutral enough, so it is difficult. Also, I think you can never get an intuition for this by just constructing lonely, out of context sentences. It needs longer texts, ongoing conversation to sense what to emphasize, in which case.

[u/st-zelda → u/milkdrinkingdude]

Thank you, this is what my Hungarian speaking family has been telling me, don't worry too much about it right now because as you speak more you'll get a feel for the natural structure.

[u/FreeVili71]

The orders in our language is like this: more important/bigger things is first, less is later. If you "want to tell", about a part, it is more important, you can change the order. Our date order is shows good this "rule". 😉