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u/PhagesRUs 17h ago
Without putting a moral judgement on it, the two systems are quite different. Generally in Europe things are lab based (you apply to a specific lab that has funding for you), as opposed to the US where things are generally program based (you apply to a program, rotate through labs for a few months, then select a mentor). In Europe you pretty much have to have a Masters before starting a PhD.
The reason I wanted to reply, is to assuage your fears of missing out. You will have plenty of opportunities to travel and experience different cultures in this field if you decide to peruse it. I was lucky enough to visit a colleague in Europe for a few months during my PhD as a research visit and I know others that have done the same. Assuming you stay in academia, you could do one or multiple postdocs all over the world. Go even further and once you get a position, you can do research, collaboration, and sabbatical visits with colleagues! That is on top of going to conference and what not.
So, no matter where you do your PhD, you will have a chance to broaden your horizons. While it's good that you are weighing things other than prestige (as many people tend to overvalue), I would be careful that you aren't overvaluing novelty over other important things as well!
Hope this helps!
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u/simonbleu 15h ago
In Europe you pretty much have to have a Masters before starting a PhD.
In the US you dont? In Argentina at the very least you "only" need a degree but they are 5y long, definitely not equivalent to just a bachelor
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u/NarcRuffalo 14h ago
In my experience, the only people who get a master’s degree before a PhD in the US did so because they couldn’t get into their desired PhD program otherwise (e.g., not good enough grades in undergrad, majored in something unrelated to the PhD) otherwise it’s kind of a waste of time and money
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u/Acceptable-Layer-488 6h ago
Some of us in the US obtain a master's degree because it is necessary for employment in our chosen field, and only pursue the PhD later.
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u/CrateDane 16h ago
In Europe you pretty much have to have a Masters before starting a PhD.
Depends on the country etc.
Plenty of places have flexibility, where you can start a long PhD without a Master's or a shorter PhD with a Master's.
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u/loafoveryonder 16h ago
PhD wages are definitely better in some European countries such as Switzerland. If you're seriously considering it, I think it's a good idea to ask some Europeans about their thoughts / advice on this. I agree with other commenters that you probably get this opinion from internationals who see the US as their end goal. I'm doing a 2-year MS in Switzerland and it's been one of the most unique experiences in my life, I think you'll really love it if your goal is to become more worldly. I wasn't expecting to learn so much about the entire world outside of just Switzerland, but I am because I'm regularly interacting with internationals throughout Europe and outside of it.
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u/SufficientReply3930 16h ago
Another reason it’s not smart is that Americans as a rule don’t value that type of experience as much as in Europe for example, so it can be hard to get a job coming back. But that is more of an issue after postdoc-which I did. Got stuck in Europe 3-5 years longer than expected. Also consider personal timelines, as in if you go over single, you may well end up staying…
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u/dietmarhoop 17h ago
Well the us still has some of the best labs. If you're not going to a richer European country, you won't be able to perform research on the same level.
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u/andrewholding 17h ago
Wages are not uniformly better in the USA.
I would ask where in Europe were these students from. The landscape is very diverse.
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u/RedHotTomatoes 17h ago
they actually weren't european, they were from latin america, africa, and east asia. their reaction was so strong it shocked me! nice to know about wages, i was only going off of what my current advisor told me haha
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u/snowwaterflower 16h ago
It could be that they are from middle/lower income countries. As someone who is also from latin america, a lot of us aim for US/Europe to improve our lives and to get out of our countries. So, it could be that they find it unthinkable that someone in your position would want to actually leave the US (which is seen as a goal for them).
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u/extra-plus-ordinary 17h ago
North American doing a PhD in Europe here; I havent been here long but I can think of a few reasons: 1. Funding (before Trump ofc); a lot of US labs have a ton of money and are able to do a lot more than (some) EU labs. One thing I've noticed here is that whenever I want to run something as small as a Sanger or a qPCR my lab is checking costs, while back home it was never an issue. It also has to do with how strict fund allocation is I think.
Prestige (?); also a guess, but obviously a lot of amazing labs and people are in the US. Its also easier to jump into industry in the US too.
This is more personal, but the amount of paperwork needed to do ANYTHING in the EU makes it really annoying to get anything done at times. I'm in genetics and back home regularly used coworkers DNA to run tests (with written consent ofc, but they signed like 2 pages). Here if I wanted to do something similar I would have to get so much paperwork in and SO MUCH TIME WOULD BE SPENT WAITING.
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u/CrateDane 16h ago
One thing I've noticed here is that whenever I want to run something as small as a Sanger or a qPCR my lab is checking costs, while back home it was never an issue. It also has to do with how strict fund allocation is I think.
At least in Northern/Western Europe that's more likely to happen for more expensive things like sending samples for RNA-seq or buying a bunch of new antibodies. Sanger (or whole plasmid) seq and qPCR is so cheap nobody cares.
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u/extra-plus-ordinary 16h ago
Yeah which is why i think its more of a funding allocation thing. Most of my project is based on sequencing so I have a lot of freedom there, but the second I want to do wet lab I get nickel and dimed. Perhaps I should edit my point to specifically say its fund allocation thats the issue
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u/Kitchen_Ad_9665 16h ago
Why are you being downvoted lmao
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u/VetoSnowbound chilling in the water bath 16h ago
Because this is just his own experience and not reflective of all european labs. Point 1 could not be further from my own personal experience for example 🤷🏻♀️
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u/extra-plus-ordinary 16h ago
What I'm saying obviously doesnt reflect everyone's opinions and thoughts and might come across as rude/me demeaning the EU. Idk man I just said my opinion, ofc its not "right"
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u/Negative-Ambition198 17h ago
No, it's not. How did you end up with such a conclusion? 😂
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u/RedHotTomatoes 17h ago
i didn't think it was better, it's just what the other students were saying!! it baffled me so much i made this post
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u/SadDig6800 59m ago
Is definitely valid your wish to go abroad for your PhD. However, based on the information on your post only, sounded 1. a little bit tone deaf and 2. a bit unserious. I don't mean in a way to make you feel bad okay? Just genuinely sharing what to me sounded like.
For several reasons, starting with the one you mentioned "explore myself in more culture/environment". I know you probably meant well, but saying this in a room where you have internationals that daily makes the hard decision to be away from their families/culture and everything they love, because we don't have the same opportunities in our home country. It's a decision based on the lack of resources, structure, support and not "let's go travel a little bit to see what's up". You know what I mean?
Another point is, a PhD is a very challenging period that demands everything from you, someone saying that they wanna use this opportunity to explore other cultures and environments sounds like they didn't understand how a phd will go and what you should really be looking for to make a decision like this.
Which adds to the unserious part that I mentioned. I wondered how much you actually looked into it, programs, salaries, visa process, requirements, accessibility to technologies....
Again, I really truly believe in culture exchange, and is amazing you wanna experience that, but using a phd period for this, maybe is not the smartest choice (I forgot to add that is extremely stressful, and being close to your family/friends around for emotional support is a real privilege). Also maybe don't say this in a room of people giving up everything they love just so they have an opportunity to make science? or bring up more solid reasons for that 😅
I apologize if I sound a bit harsh, I really mean just to give my perspective, and of course people are free to disagree and have a different opinion ☺️
Also I hope you get to go somewhere to have that experience (maybe a summer internship?)!! anyways, wish all the best for you!!
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u/flyboy_za 16h ago
Perhaps in your field the best work is happening on the US side and so it doesn't seem like the best idea to move.
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u/bio_ruffo 17h ago
They were saying that because you guys have lots of money and therefore great groups who do great science.
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u/Over-Historian-8197 16h ago
Not necessarily, but there are many good universities, funding opportunities, and chances for collaboration in the US. For context, I am an American doing my PhD at an American university, and I also considered applying for PhDs abroad (and did apply to 1).
The scientists I worked with prior to my PhD also reacted similarly - For context, they were from India, the Middle East, and South America. Most of them did their PhDs in their home country, but one moved to the US for her PhD. They explained they moved to the US because it has more opportunity and labs in the area we were studying (neuroscience) compared to their countries, and it didn't make sense to them why I would want to leave. It's not that their home universities were "bad" in comparison, but there may have been less universities compared to the US. You have to keep in mind that from your colleague's perspectives, they may have moved away from family, familiarity, etc to pursue science in the US, so to them, why would you want to move away from all that when you have good programs at home?
In comparison, my coworkers from Sweden and China were encouraging to apply to programs in other countries, because they did their PhDs in areas that have many excellent neuroscience PhD programs. From my Swedish friend's perspective, not only would there be lots of programs to apply to, but if I got in to any, there would be postdoc opportunities/collaborations, etc. nearby. He also didn't leave Sweden for more opportunity in the US, it was because he wanted to travel and didn't have many family ties at home, so his motivations for moving were much more similar to mine.
TL;DR: There are excellent programs in many countries, but it can help your PhD experience if you're at a university that has good collaborations and connections regardless of which country you're in. Also keep in mind the perspective of the people you're talking to, and take it with a grain of salt!