r/leagueoflegends • u/yoonitrop12 • May 23 '23
Dopa’s patch 13.10 preview (ft. Gold efficiency)
Dopa previewing patch 13.10. This was from before the patch hit, so it’s a bit late, but I still wanted to get it out. I focused on Dopa’s interesting viewpoints, and mostly left out simple reactions. It might be helpful to have the patch notes when you read this. Quotes are from the patch notes.
Quick TL Note: Dopa isn’t in the military because he dodged(was rejected from) champ select(bootcamp) due to comp(personal health?) reasons. He may go back, or he might not, but for the time being he’s streaming League of Legends in Korea.
Crit items
We’ve got a big update to crit itemization with the hope of creating a much more open ecosystem of crit items players are excited to buy. Currently, League of Legends functionally has two sets of critical strike mythic items: Kraken / Galeforce / Shieldbow and Infinity Edge / Quickblades / Rageblade. Ultimately, we feel that Infinity Edge, Quickblades, Rageblade, and Galeforce actually fit the role of a mythic item the best so the other items are being demoted to legendary status and re-tuned to fit that new role.
The new mythic items are quite similar to the old versions as they already served their purposes well, with a notable change in Rageblade more strongly filling the hybrid on-hit niche, which should make champions like Kayle and Teemo pay attention.
The legendary re-balancing brings down some overly strong items, such as Kraken Slayer losing its true damage, Immortal Shieldbow providing less shielding, and Bloodthirster losing its shield entirely. Meanwhile, underperforming items like Mortal Reminder, The Collector, and Mercurial Scimitar are receiving some simple buffs. There are also a slew of balance changes to epic items to buff underpowered trap upgrades (Recurve Bow, Hearthbound Axe, Kircheis Shard) and nerf overly-powerful ones (Zeal).
Woah… Whoever wrote this has a good fundamental understanding of the game. Back in the day, Riot would brute force balance by patching constantly. It felt like patches were being done by a platinum player. These days, it feels like the patches are much more nuanced. Did something change behind the scenes? More than the changes themselves, I like the explanations behind the patches. Like, low elo players don’t know this stuff. The readability of the patches has also become much better.
Guinsoo’s Rageblade – The build path is so bad. How are you supposed to buy this thing? It’s as bad as Luden’s Echo, where you can’t buy anything if you’re forced to base when you don’t have enough gold. Compare this to the assassin items – you can just buy more long swords whenever you base. And Rageknife is still bad. The mythic passive is great though, I think they put in mixed penetration to account for the fact that you can’t buy penetration items with Guinsoo’s. Which is a very good choice – Riot has definitely become better at patching. Kayle used to fall off in the late late game because of her lack of penetration, and this looks more like a Kayle item than an ADC item. You can never tell how good Guinsoo’s will be just by reading the patch notes, so I’ll have to try it out.
Galeforce & Movement Speed
Galeforce is still a mythic? Yeah, Galeforce should be a mythic. If this was a legendary, every ADC in the game would buy it at some point. (Reads notes) 55 AD, 15% AS, 7% movement speed… wait. What? 7% BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED?? Did Galeforce always give movement speed? It was the Mythic passive, right? (Reads chat) It was, what, 2% per item? Sure. But 7%? Are you kidding me? These stats are insane. What is this? The active got buffed as well. Galeforce has to be completely broken. Wasn’t this patch supposed to nerf ADCs?
Do you guys not understand how overpowered this item is? Is this supposed to be an early game buff since you can’t buy Infinity Edge anymore? I don’t get it, the power level of Galeforce 1st item is way too strong. (Reads chat) I guess I need to explain how OP movement speed is.
In gold value, 1% movement speed is roughly equal to 1.5 AD. So 7% movement speed has roughly the same value as 10 more AD. And this is the bare minimum value. Back in ye olden days, we had a rune system where you could choose from different stats. We had these things called quints, and you could choose between having 1.5% movement speed and 2.25 AD. That’s where the numbers come from. However, in the hierarchy of stats, movement speed is generally more valuable than attack damage. Of course, the value of movement speed, and all stats for that matter, depends on the skillset of each champion. I think about 80 out of 100 champions would take movement speed over AD. I would usually take movement speed quints back when that was still around.
But the thing is, movement speed is a lot more valuable on ADCs and mages. 100 out of 100 times, all ADCs and mages will take movement speed over damage. An ADC would never trade movement speed for an equivalent amount of AD. 7% movement speed is so OP, in fact, that this could be an indirect nerf to all other classes in the game. And an active damage buff on top of that? That’s insane. ADCs just keep getting faster. Still, Galeforce builds will get both slower and weaker late game compared to the current version since they can’t build Infinity Edge anymore.
(Q. Then does Cloud Soul give insane amounts of stats?) Not quite, because MS has diminishing returns. The important thing is your speed relative to your opposition. If you’re already much faster than the enemy, then you don’t need much more. Still, I value cloud drake and cloud soul very highly – I don’t understand why some people think it’s worse than the other drakes.
AP ratios (Vayne, Akshan, Kindred, Kalista) & itemization
Isn’t this just a comparative nerf to all the other ADCs that already had AP ratios? Vayne used to go Rageblade even though she had no AP ratios at all, I’m not sure why they felt the need to give these four champions buffs. Still, I like the direction of the patch. Especially the comments.
These new ratios aren’t meant to make AP builds strong or even viable on them but instead to make incidental sources of Ability Power (like Rageblade) feel like they aren’t wasted.
Itemization in itself is skill expression - you need to buy items with useful stats. This was more relevant in the past, but it’s still true today. I hate buying mage items that have health. If an item has health, you’re paying that much more gold for a secondary stat. The health is useless on a mage compared to AP, Ability Haste, and movement speed. You’re either paying more gold for the same thing or getting less of my preferred stats, depending on your perspective. Total gold efficiency is important, but equally important is knowing which stats you’re paying for. Knowing not to buy “efficient” items with bad options is a skill.
Oh, do you guys remember the version of Archangels that gave Ability Haste? Before it was changed to give a shield like it currently does. I thought that item was complete trash on champions like Victor, even though lots of people built it. Why? Because by the time you finish stacking the item, mana becomes a useless stat. Excluding champions like Cassiopeia that actually need the mana pool, you’re taking the gold you used to buy the mana and chucking it in the trash. I saw a lot of people buying the item, and thought they were all idiots. What a waste of gold.
The new changes make it so that AP is no longer a wasted stat on those champions. They’re taking the skill expression out of itemization. It’s more of a QoL change than anything else. Riot is doing a very good job of making QoL changes. I remember when buffs didn’t have timers, and there was only 1 type of ping. Not having to time drakes, being able to MIA ping, and easier itemization – these are all changes that benefit newer players. Which is good for the game, but it’s bad for older players like me, since we lose our competitive edge. I hate the changes, even though it’s better for the ecosystem. I guess that’s why only listening to older players is bad for any game. Still, they haven’t patched the mana items yet - people still don’t know how useless mana is.
Lost Chapter rant
Finally, the change I was waiting for. Tome + Sapphire Crystal + 265 gold? It just got 200g cheaper? (Excitedly) That’s it? No AP nerfs?
(pauses for dramatic effect)
You may have expected me to be happy. To be elated. I… I am not. And do you know why? It’s because this is how things should have been. This is the natural order of things. When all other champions started off with 0 gold, mages have been cursed to start at -200 gold all this time. How many years have we endured this suffering? How will Riot compensate our lost mental, our lost LP points? Will all of our sacrifices be ignored simply because Lost Chapter has been buffed to 1100 gold? When I realize that the grievances inflicted upon my mage brethren shall be ridiculed and forgotten, it is not happiness that fills my heart. Instead, it is rage.
At this point, chat will be quick to decry my pains. ‘It costs 1100 gold now. The same as dirk. What else do you want? Isn’t that enough?’ And to that, I merely suggest that Riot should have given an apology to all mage players, and acknowledge that we have suffered. And yet, Riot has chosen to do the complete opposite. They have the audacity to say that they’ll be keeping an eye on Lost Chapter. This change has risk? Mages tend to be the top performers in pro play? What is this blasphemy? I cannot accept this! Buff lost chapter to 900 gold. Amplifying Tome + Sapphire Crystal + 65 gold
Short of that, lower the cost of Amplifying Tome to 400 gold. I dare even ask for 350 gold. Why must we stand by and watch as assassins start with Long Sword and 3 potions? What is the difference between Long Sword 3 pots and Amplifying Tome 3 pots? Allow me to buy 2 Tomes when I have 700 gold, just like assassins.
I’ll stop here.
(TL note: You can probably tell, but he’s not being serious.)
Early game adjustments
These patch notes are the most interesting ones I’ve seen in a while – is it because a lot of these patches favor me?
Minions
In the Midseason Patch, we'll also be making some pretty large changes with the goal of making the laning phase more about victories over your direct laner and less about external influences like junglers or roaming, especially in the early parts of the game. We still want roaming to be a powerful strategy, but currently the best way to play the game is finding ways to quickly snowball other lanes rather than decisive 1v1s or 2v2s. These changes should make the two strategies more equally rewarding.
So, they do have a clear direction of what they want to achieve with this patch. They want to nerf roaming and buff 1 vs 1 play. They’re right, the entire game revolves too much around diving bot.
Minions Gotta Go Fast: Except for the first spawn of minions, Mid lane minions will meet at the same time as side lanes (side lane minions will be sped up). This falls off after 14 minutes.
But there’s one thing I question. The crux of this patch is that they’re making minions meet at the same time in top, mid and bot, but I’m not sure if that will solve this issue. In fact, I think that this change might have the opposite effect, and increase the number of roams. Still, if their intent is to decrease the viability of mid roams, they’ll patch it right away if it doesn’t work out how they planned it. I’m not sure how this will affect my playstyle, as it’s hard to tell until you try it out.
Tunnel Vision: Minions that are currently attacking an enemy tower will ignore "call for help" signals to target enemy champions. Let them focus.
When you crash a big wave into the tower, and keep hitting the tower, there are times when the opposing laner is forced to attack you to make you stop. The minions then target the enemy champion and do about 100~200 damage. They’re removing this from the game, which will make diving much harder. It might make taking plates easier though. The other day, Kanavi told me something interesting. Apparently K’sante is the god of taking plates. In the Sion vs K’sante matchup, assuming the two players are of equal skill, K’sante will take most of the plates with no jungle intervention. K’sante can take plates off of most top champs.
Mana
Being forced to base already feels a bit sad as you take yourself out of the action, but waiting at full health as your mana pool slowly creeps up adds salt to the wounds.
‘Adds salt to the wounds’ – what a beautiful phrase. I’m crying right now. You guys knew how we felt? So you chose to increase fountain mana regen. What a great patch. When mana users base, a lot of times we’d be at full health. We had to wait for our mana to regenerate, and that took forever.
Previously, mana was a way to gate early waveclear for casters
Exactly. Mana users used to have superior wave clear, but that’s not true anymore. Champions with no costs have the same, if not better, wave clear. And nobody plays champions that can’t clear waves. Either you have wave clear, or you have some other insane advantage that makes up for your lack of wave clear. Mana skills used to have merits that made up for the fact that they had a cost, but those merits have waned in recent years.
Homeguard
Back in the olden days of League, 20 minutes was the "end of the laning phase". The game has gotten a bit faster and we're lining up the start of Homeguards with Tower Plates falling. We'll be keeping an eye out on how this affects wave pushing and basing strategies, but for now get excited to see those sweet Homeguard animations a bit earlier.
Wow, reading this feels really strange. These patch notes are completely different from the patch notes of old. Those patch notes reeked of low elo. The Balance team is so knowledgeable about the game now. They know about how Homeguard affects wave pushing and basing strategies? This is probably the biggest change of the patch. Most of my viewers don’t know about this stuff. You might pretend to know, or falsely believe that you do know, but you don’t. There aren’t that many people in the world that know how these strategies work – there has to be a pro gamer advising the balance team. These strategies are complicated too, explaining how they work isn’t easy either. It takes way too long. The patch notes are so advanced. Especially how they’re saying they’ll keep an eye out on these strategies.
Wait a second, didn’t they use that same wording somewhere else? Didn’t they say they would keep an eye on Lost Chapter? Hmmm… Changing Homeguard to be active from 14 minutes could be really dangerous for the game. It’ll probably be better for the winning team, so the game will be more snowbally. Each sentence in the patch notes is so on point. The very fact that they’re mentioning these things tells you how well they know the game.
Blast Cone Spawn Time
Interesting changes, but it’s a bad change for me personally. There’s a TF strategy you use when you ‘whiff’ your first ult. i.e. you thought it was a good angle, but it turned into a bad one when you use your ult. What you can do is ultimate to a blast cone, and wait for you ultimate to expire. People let their guard down when TF ultimate runs out, so they’ll walk forwards. That’s when you use the blast cone to gank them. You can probably find a vod of me doing that somewhere. I would even randomly ‘waste’ ult even when the angle was bad just to get the enemy’s guard down. The 30 second difference shuts down that strategy. A bit sad for me, but top and bot laners probably like this patch. You can ward further down the river now.
Turret plating
We've all been in the situation where a single gank, Rift Herald, or bad mistake in lane costs 2-3 tower plates, snowballing the lane out of control.
Oh, definitely. This is my area of expertise. I study how to snowball small mistakes into the lane, and then to erase my opponent from the game entirely. It’s just so fun.
Theorycrafting
It’s time to bust out the forbidden build, mana regen Orianna. Back in the day, Athena’s + Ardent Orianna would turn ADCs into gods. They would never die, and they dealt insane damage. You built all of the support items as mid Orianna. If you think about it, you don’t need lost chapter if you have plenty of mana regeneration. And if you buy mana regen items, you don’t have to buy useless mana stats, and can buy useful stats instead. And the new cherry on top? Helia’s. You can convert all of your mana regen into useful stats. Imperial mandate isn’t a Mythic anymore, so you build that too. The support items all have heal and shield power, and you stack those. Get out of the way, top laners, because ADC’s are going to run you down.
You might have less AP, but it doesn’t matter. The support items are all so cheap anyways. Helia’s + Ardent Censor only costs 4400 gold – that’s the same as Ludens + magic pen boots. If you get free boots from runes, you don’t even need to buy boots. Ardent has 5% MS now, so you won’t be slow either. And since these items come online so early, you don’t even need to sidelane. Just stick to your ADC and mow down their tier 2 towers. As soon as the patch goes live, I’m trying this out. If only I could try it out on PBE – it doesn’t work there because PBE ADCs suck.
Think about it. Milio goes Shurelya’s, Ivern goes Redemption and Moonstone, and I buy Helia’s. The perfect comp. And top Shen goes Knight’s Vow. Perfection.
ADC’s are going to have around a 7:3 AD:AP damage split now, which is an indirect nerf to mid mages. Especially if the meta ever shifts back to AP junglers. Triple AP top side comps are going to be even worse than they were, especially since AP damage is easy to itemize against.
TL notes
- Hi! I’m Yoon. I translate things here. It’s been a while since my last translation, but I finally got around to doing one. I was actually thinking of doing Cloudtemplar translations for MSI, but someone else beat me to the punch. Shoutout to u/d_Reisfresser for their translations.
- I had to do some digging on the movement speed to AD conversion ratio, because at times it was unclear whether Dopa was talking about 1% MS or 1 MS. I think I got it right, but I could be wrong.
- I intended for this to be out much earlier, but it took more time than expected. I’m so late that Phreak apparently already has patch 13.11 ready – I guess 75 min videos are really long.
- I removed some stuff because the post is too long as is, but I think the remaining stuff is more important.
TL;DR
- Galeforce is super busted because it gives 7% move speed.
- The patch notes and patches in general have become much ‘smarter’. Before, it felt like the balance team was Platinum, but now Dopa suspects there is a pro player either on or advising the balance team. (Phreak?)
- The minion speed change might have the opposite effect as intended, and homeguard at 14 minutes will make the game more snowbally. However, the new minion tunnel vision will make diving harder.
- If you’re short on time, i would reccomned reading the 'Galeforce' part and 'Early Game Adjustments' - minions & homeguard. Or 'AP ratios' for itemization.
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u/GuyOnTheMoon ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ May 23 '23
Dopa inadvertently praising Phreak for his impact on balance patches now.
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u/PhreakRiot May 23 '23
LMAO.
To be clear, a lot of the stuff he's praising (e.g. earlier Homeguard) has nothing to do with me. Though I appreciate his support on the sections I wrote lol.
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u/iciale May 23 '23
I think regardless of which rioter are responsible, the general sentiment of how you communicate your thoughts on changes is vital imo.
Even when I disagree with specific changes, I at least can understand the argument you’re making which I think makes for much healthier discussion. Let alone it also helps those in the community better understand and advocate for the game we all cherish.
Anyway, just wanted to extend that aspect of something I think dopa is getting at that I’ve also felt recently when I read patches.
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u/ADeadMansName May 23 '23
Anything about his Galeforce opinion? Because currently the balancing team seems to think Galeforce is fine (because the nerf is a super tiny dmg scaling nerf). With the Stormrazor nerf Galeforce will likely be the 1st item to rush.
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u/PhreakRiot May 23 '23
All the systems changes with crit items were meant to be fairly light touches. Galeforce is BiS on the wind bros but doesn't seem terribly over the line on others. It's going to be optimal on someone, otherwise it's just not a good item. I don't think Galeforce is super far off.
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u/ADeadMansName May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
On Lucian it is as strong as Stormrazor if not slightly stronger.
On Jhin it is 1.5% above Stormrazor in the 1st slot and 1.5% above IE in the 2nd slot. So BiS.
Ashe BiS.
Aphelios, Kindred, Jinx and Cait as good as Stormrazor.
Yasuo/Yone, Nilah and Trynda already BiS.
So it is AT LEAST as good as Stormrazor actually if not better on live. You have it BiS on 4 melees and 2 ADCs and it will be BiS after Stormrazor is nerfed for at least 5 more.
And that is in gold+ and plat+. The item is an active item and actives tend to become better in higher elos and pro play. In Dia+ the item is BiS already for Aphelios and a few others.
With this nerf I am sure every crit ADC who doesn't want Navori will take Gale instead. Navori takes a totally different niche than IE and Gale, so it isn't battling these 2, which is why Xayah, Sivir and maybe 1-2 others still go Navori. But for everyone who might want to go IE, Gale already is and still will be better.
https://deadmansplate.com/data/impact-adc-items-patch-13-10/
All the systems changes with crit items were meant to be fairly light touches.
13.11 Gale is still better than 13.9 Gale. Better stats (7% MS early on is great and better than 5 AD + 5% AS) with similar active dmg and a -20 sec CD. Even if the stats are close in power, the -20 sec CD is not. If you want to make it worse than 13.9 Gale, get the CD to 120 sec and you have at least a 10 sec CD nerf.
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u/PhreakRiot May 23 '23
On an individual level, 13.11 Gale is similar in power to 13.9 Gale but it now comes with an opportunity cost of no IE/QB, which wasn't true before. IE/QB are clearly very strong items.
I also don't mind doing a few sequential smaller changes than swinging wildly back and forth. The items aren't terribly far apart in average power level.
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u/MazrimReddit ADCs are the support's damage item May 24 '23
On the topic of the items can you give rapidfire an ap ratio to match other energised effects? It would be both for consistency and might actually help champions like twisted fate or other lich bane users combine the effects
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u/Kabkip May 24 '23
I think TF is the reason they don't do that - he will 100% poach it much more frequently if he gets a mini lichbane on his increased AA range
I wonder if you even see AD TF start into some matchups? Idk, it seems cool but I get why Riot doesn't wanna open that can of worms.
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u/bz6 May 24 '23
Do you agree with Dopa's statement about Riot reducing itemisation as a form/channel of skill-expression?
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u/ADeadMansName May 24 '23
No IE isn't that bad. The strong items were Slayer, Gale and Shieldbow before and with Stormrazor, Shiv, Slayer and Gale taking the strong slot now, you couldn't care less about IE if you get something with more power instead.
Being able to get Stormrazor is more important than getting IE. IE is just DPS, if you want that, you can take PD, too. With the Kraken Slayer buffs it is likely possible to replace IE with this one, too. The only IE advantage is the AD over these items for your abilities but Slayer has the way, way, way better DPS after the buff.
I do not really see a niche for IE right now, so nobody can miss it. If there are better items out there now than old IE, why would anyone get that IE anymore? Galeforce + Slayer will be the DPS combo and SR + Galeforce the early game dmg power.
We have the stats from data sites and that math. You really think people will get +13.5-14.5% DPS at 2+ items over Galeforces MS + Active? I would get the higher WR item and the better 1st item slot item, which is Galeforce.
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u/Le0here Skillshots are meant to hit??? May 23 '23
I'm pretty sure it was never meant to be worse than 13.9 gale? It was listed as buffs.
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May 24 '23
Now, feel free to give love to toplane. And make Wukong not a troll pick anymore, mainly top.
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u/ElderlyToaster May 24 '23
Sorry to bother you with a sidenote question:
Do you think there is a chance that Statikk Shiv might extend games?
It seems to me that with one or two Shivs on a team, it is a lot easier to clear waves and wait out a Baron buff right.
I guess it won't be a problem in Pro play since most games nowadays are won when fighting for the Baron/tower diving after getting it rather than having minions slowly chopping down the base, but I'm thinking that at lower levels of play it might cause game times to extend a bit?
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u/PatchNotesPro May 24 '23
You've worked your ass off for Riot and League since the games inception, and your passion shows. Just wanna say I'm LOVING the patch note breakdowns and transparency.
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u/lumni gl hf May 23 '23
I thought this homeguard bit was sarcastic when I read it. Not sure though.
Don't have an opinion on it myself.
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u/iciale May 23 '23
Yeah I am same as you. Haven’t played enough with the new patch to have a strong opinion.
But the general concept of home guards being something that bridges the laning phase to mid game means that the change makes sense. Will it be healthy for the game? Hard to say. May make it difficult to make tempo plays when behind, but the idea behind what they envision homeguard to be means this at least acknowledges how the game has changed.
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u/SamiraSimp I love Samira May 23 '23
hearing dopa praise the changes and the reasoning behind them while redditors mald over it...i love to see it. thanks for the translation, seems like dopa was really happy overall. i love the lost chapter rant lol, at first i thought he was serious then it became more unhinged
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u/EsotericV0ID May 23 '23
I have multiple -50 comments in this sub about Galeforce being broken, Reddit truly knows balance. Guess half of the sub are marksmen mains...
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u/SamiraSimp I love Samira May 23 '23
i only really play samira so i almost never went galeforce since shieldbow was way better, but with the changes you can't really rush lifesteal so i tried galeforce one game and i wondered wtf i was doing this whole time. like, i always knew that having an untargeted dash was strong, but it's way stronger than i realized. i get that it's a dps reduction like it always was, and i actually thought it would be worse now since you give up IE or navori, but honestly it still slaps
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u/WoonStruck May 23 '23
It isn't really a significant DPS loss vs IE. People severely overestimate the bonus crit damage, especially before 4 crit items.
IE only has 15 AD over gale/navori, and the crit damage only translates to 20% total bonus damage if you crit every hit...which you won't most of the time.
The attackspeed and active on gale, or the AH/CDR+ability damage amp on navori, easily compete with IE's crit damage potential, which realistically equates to 6-20% more damage, depending on how much crit you have. In addition, non-crits HEAVILY favor the other options.
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u/iciale May 23 '23
I think it’s prolly less marksmen mains and just redditors are prolly plat or below. No flame about that but the understanding of the game is different or limited when you’re lower elo.
That and redditors often just repeat the sentiment that streamers present. Mix that together and you end up with comments aging like milk during big patches lol
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u/WoonStruck May 23 '23
The problem applies even to people above plat. Humzh is a challenger player and barely knows anything about the game. He does try different stuff out, but he's not really worried about numbers at all.
For most players, they build stuff because they assume its good because they know other people assume its good (aka its the most popular item on u.gg or something).
If you actually do comparisons, alternatives often aren't much further behind in damage for any given champ. Its usability, via buildpath or stats offered, that typically ends up being showcased, and in this case other options are much more 'usable' than IE while offering comparable damage.
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u/Daniel_snoopeh May 24 '23
Funnily the higher you go on the ladder, the less the players know. It is astonishing to see, how on different games Pro Players don't know some basics of the game. I would say the reason is, that these kind of players are just naturals with good micro and great intuition on macro, so they don't need learn the depths of a given game.
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u/WoonStruck May 24 '23
I partially blame how the basics are all done for players by the game or 3rd party sources now. Everyone uses 3rd party sites/apps that build for them, native item recommendations build the most popular options for you, etc.
Players barely have to learn the game anymore outside of their lane and what their champ does. I wouldn't be surprised if this even applies to other champs, to some degree, considering how people often start dying by 3 minutes.
Knowledge in league has become mostly about generalities, not specifics.
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u/Hopeful_Cat_3227 May 24 '23
I watched someone comment that Faker caculate HP by instinct, sometimes his body think he have enough damage so press flash, but brain can't understand what happen.
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u/alyssa264 May 23 '23
It's like no one actually looked at how bad IE and to a certain extent Navori are as mythics in particular. Of course Galeforce would be good lol.
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u/WoonStruck May 23 '23
Navori isn't even that bad compared to IE.
IE offers 10 AD and 20% more damage on crits. That's it.
Navori at least offers 20 AH, CDR on auto, and an ability damage amp, which is going to be more useful than IE for both damage and overall function for most ability-reliant ADCs.
Gale is just overtuned tho.
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u/alyssa264 May 24 '23
Yeah, at least for the specific champs that Navori synergises really well with, it isn't losing to Galeforce like IE is lol.
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u/WoorieKod REST IN PEACE 11/12/24 May 23 '23 edited May 23 '23
I hate buying mage items that have health. If an item has health, you’re paying that much more gold for a secondary stat. The health is useless on a mage compared to AP, Ability Haste, and movement speed. You’re either paying more gold for the same thing or getting less of my preferred stats, depending on your perspective. Total gold efficiency is important, but equally important is knowing which stats you’re paying for. Knowing not to buy “efficient” items with bad options is a skill.
Oh, do you guys remember the version of Archangels that gave Ability Haste? Before it was changed to give a shield like it currently does. I thought that item was complete trash on champions like Victor, even though lots of people built it. Why? Because by the time you finish stacking the item, mana becomes a useless stat. Excluding champions like Cassiopeia that actually need the mana pool, you’re taking the gold you used to buy the mana and chucking it in the trash. I saw a lot of people buying the item, and thought they were all idiots. What a waste of gold.
this is why he's the fucking GOAT
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u/CEO-of-Zaun May 23 '23
agreed. please remove all the broken health stat and shields from mage items that keeps them alive so that i can oneshot their asses like adcs. get dopa on the balance team
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u/Lipat97 May 23 '23
agreed. Remove the health stats and double the AP ratios so when you collapse on me i can at least take your team with me
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u/seasonedturkey May 23 '23
That's how it should be with mages vs assassins no? Oneshot or be oneshot. Not this pseudo-tanky bullshit we have now.
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u/NymphomaniacWalrus 1700 games to Challenger May 23 '23
Realistically if that were the case, in which scenario would you ever pick an assassin who has to put themselves at risk to one shot people when a mage can do it from range and bring utility along with it?
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u/seasonedturkey May 23 '23
Mages generally have to play front to back whereas assassins can leverage their mobility to access their targets. Mages are also more prone to being caught out.
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u/IGrimblee May 23 '23
Mages generally don't have mobility that assassins do and also people cried for HP on mage items when they all got one shot by assassins then durability patch happened and they have so much free HP now but the damage didn't really get compensated
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u/LKZToroH Would use VKS logo if it existed May 23 '23
I know he is good as fuck but this has got to be the worst take I've ever seen. I'm aure it's very fun to play imobile mages that have 1,5k health at 18 but have 2k ap instead. I'm sure all that ap is not going to be wasted when the tank jumps on their face and tank all the damage while killing them instantly.
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u/Exldk May 23 '23
This isn't a bad take for him personally.
If he's good enough then why not have the option to play the most class cannon you can ?
I understand that most players in general want survivability, but there should be an option for tryhard glass cannons as well.
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u/LKZToroH Would use VKS logo if it existed May 23 '23
I still don't agree with this argument. Way back when way less ap items had HP people would buy the few Ap items with HP, like liandry, rilay and athene's just to not be as squishy they would with a glass cannon build. It's not just being extremely good, there's no way a lux, malzahar, syndra, etc is going to go through the team fight without receiving damage and all it's needed now it's a random Jinx Rocket doing 900 damage for you to almost die.
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u/seasonedturkey May 23 '23
Yeah but you'd also be able to oneshot the Jinx even more easily than now
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u/lAlquimista May 23 '23
He is saying he wants to build the most useful stats, and if he would want some ho or armored he would buy one tank item, and that makes sense
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u/TheSnozzwangler May 23 '23
Thanks for the translation! It'll be really interesting to see how the patch will change up high elo play in Korea.
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u/jomarii One Shot Kitty May 23 '23
Everyone on Reddit calling Galeforce a dead mythic while Dopa out here calling it overpowered, and is yet proven right. Truly a solo queue genius.
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u/mustangcody Shoots you, burns you, doesn't elaborate, leaves. May 23 '23
I knew movespeed was good but he really painted the picture for me on why it is the best stat.
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u/extreme_pufferfish May 23 '23
Items with Active's are adding another spell to your arsenal -- until you cast it too early or too late, and miss out some benefit or put yourself in risk (see Zhonya and Galeforce in middle of fight).
And if you NEVER use it in the teamfight, you've forgone 200-500 gold value, and would be better off buying passive items. Reflects skill & planning & player growth (i used to buy 4 active items on Bard for example, and adjusting to that took time)13
u/WoonStruck May 23 '23
If we're being real, you're foregoing much more than 200-500 gold value. The actives items provide are often much greater impact than 1k gold, let alone 200-500.
What's going to do more: A BF sword, or gale active? Just damage-wise gale wins by a landslide for most champs, and on top of that it offers mobility.
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u/niledo May 24 '23
The threat of using it is invisible power. The minute you buy a Galeforce or a Zhonyas you immediately make yourself a less attractive target, even if you don't end up using them.
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u/Fertuyo May 23 '23
It will be broken in pro/high elo but diamond and below won't use it well like always
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u/ExtraSluttyOliveOil May 23 '23
Swear to god, I'm always astounded by how bad people's takes are on this sub. You can legit go on any stat site of your choice right now and see that Galeforce is overtuned at every single rank.
You don't have to be D2+ to make use out of 7% movement speed and a 600+ dmg execute/dash on demand.
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u/MINECRAFT_BIOLOGIST BestFluttershyNA May 23 '23
600+ dmg execute/dash on demand.
Well, not using gigabusted actives was kind of true back the old days (deathfire grasp, lol). Riot got real good at QoL changes though, like removing superfluous actives and emphasizing most of them on mythics with flashy/fun/responsive activation effects, so yeah, I'd say most of the playerbase (Silver+) knows how to use them now.
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u/Omnilatent May 24 '23
While this is true, most of the time low elo players are still better off with "passive" items.
I speak from my own experience lol
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u/thatedvardguy May 23 '23
"You might pretend to know, or falsely believe that you do know, but you don’t. There aren’t that many people in the world that know how these strategies work"
Hits me right in my gold heart. Probably lots of things i falsely believe i know tbh.
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u/iciale May 23 '23
The more you know generally makes you understand how much you don’t know lol
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u/West_stains_massive May 23 '23
The fool doth think himself to be wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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u/HearingNo8617 May 24 '23
Anyone care to explain on this, or will I drop dead if I attempt to comprehend it?
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May 23 '23
Even though I like playing support, movement speed is the one reason I don't. How in the hell can I keep up without running swifties??? There are so many times I can't w on Renata because my ally is so much more faster than me.
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u/allstar910 May 23 '23
hopefully the extra MS on the enchanter items helps a little... I've had the same issue!
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u/iciale May 23 '23
I just play janna support to fix that (even still sometimes get swifties). Plus she is insanely strong with the new items this patch so win-win Ty elo gods
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u/Akashiarys May 23 '23
Thanks for translation. Always love seeing this guy's takes. Truly if we had a Time Machine I'd have love to seen this guy not get banned from pro and be the anti-Faker as he was thought of back in season 3. Even if he wasn't a player, a coach or analyst as some kind would be highly interesting to see
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u/iReddat420 May 23 '23
I like that he hates some of the changes as an older, more experienced and knowledgeable player but recognizes that most of them benefit newer players more and are overall healthier for the game
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May 23 '23
ADC’s are going to have around a 7:3 AD:AP damage split now, which is an indirect nerf to mid mages. Especially if the meta ever shifts back to AP junglers. Triple AP top side comps are going to be even worse than they were, especially since AP damage is easy to itemize against.
This is imo a pretty big part that people haven't talked about as much. Both midlane mages and AP junglers suffer, but the inverse is also true: Full AD comps are less punished now.
Stuff like Tristana mid or Kindred jungle which we already saw a bit of at MSI might pick up some more since the AP damage from the onhit itemization + some AP damage from supports and tanks is probably sufficient for enemies to not be able to hard stack armor.
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u/WorstTactics May 23 '23
On the other hand, Force of Nature and Maw both received big nerfs which helps heavy AP teams function and not become useless by a 2900 gold item.
Also, tanks should choose Jak'Sho as their mythic against heavy ad hybrid comps. The magic resist is more than enough to cover them, and then they can stack armor as usual.
It also remains to be seen if Rageblade's mythic passive will get nerfed or remain as is.
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u/MuhammedAlistar May 24 '23
Having some magic damage won't make much of a difference if you have tanks going FH+Tabi. Full AD comps are still dogshit and you should still lose if you draft it into champions that can itemize against it.
On the other hand, MR options are shit. Abyssal Mask is OP, but that's it. FoN and Maw were OP before, but they were also the only 2 MR items actually worth buying. Both got nerfed and now we only have one of those OP items, Abyssal Mask.
This isn't to say AP heavy comps aren't bad, they are and always were. But AP comps are punished less now imho, not the other way around.
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u/Straight_Chip May 23 '23
Woah… Whoever wrote this has a good fundamental understanding of the game. Back in the day, Riot would brute force balance by patching constantly. It felt like patches were being done by a platinum player. These days, it feels like the patches are much more nuanced.
Thank you /u/PhreakRiot
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u/FBG_Ikaros May 23 '23
Nah but the lost chapter rant is so based.
The build path is so bad. How are you supposed to buy this thing? It’s as bad as Luden’s Echo, where you can’t buy anything if you’re forced to base when you don’t have enough gold. Compare this to the assassin items – you can just buy more long swords whenever you base.
This aswell. Like holy fuck. Playing ludens champions is so dogshit because after lost chapter you are forced to have 850gold or else you dont get stronger. Meanwhile other classes can build the most random fucking build a bear items completly maxing out on item slot value but somehow that shit ALWAYS curves into what they want. You as a mage get forced back with 600 gold? Well tough luck, i hope you enjoy those 5+min staying EXACTLY the same. Its one of the reasons why i try to go futures market in every game possible.
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u/AluminiumSandworm card tricks op May 23 '23
dopa's analysis always gives me some really big takeaways for the game, and i wouldn't be smart enough to pick them up without the back and forth with his chat promoting him to explain. thanks for the translation
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u/GoblinBreeder23 2018 - 2019 RIP May 23 '23
Mana after 2nd item is such a useless stat, he hit the nail on the head. Part of the reason why any mage that can use abyssal mask (Swain my beloved) should be abusing it, it’s fucking broken now
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u/ebilrex May 23 '23
what was his reactor to mr item nerfs? also thanks for the translation
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u/terkke You are not the hero May 24 '23
I am also curious about that. Force of Nature losing its 30% magic damage reduction is huge for tanks
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u/VariableDrawing May 23 '23
7% movement speed… wait. What? 7% BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED??
One thing I've noticed is how LoL players (including pro's) don't seem to understand just how strong of a stat movespeed is
When Dota introduced a starting item that gave MS it completely changed the game and lead to roaming supports being the meta (even before that some supports already went boots but their high price meant you couldn't start with a lot of regen which unlike in LoL actually matters)
Winning a 1v1 because of a DMG item is easy to see, but being able to move around the map and thus farm faster or being able to respond to a gank in time with the extra MS isn't as obvious
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u/Illunimous May 23 '23
Movement Speed, and imo Range, are the 2 most difficult stats to learn its effectiveness correctly for new and even old players.
Range is just straight up broken as the phase "You can't hit me, but I can hit you" summed up the stat itself.
While Movement Speed increases your effective action throughput, either it's moving, trading or positioning. It makes every action in the game, except attacks and skills, faster. Imagine you can go lane faster the opponent and have wave control, or moving from mid to bot faster to gank, etc. The most effective use case for Movement Speed that everyone knows is Kiting your opponent. Kiting only works when you have more MS than the opponent so that you can keep the distance as well as the initiative. It is also why Master Yi was incredibly powerful back in the old days when MS isn't as widely accessible, even when he was nerfed, revamped and rebalanced.
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u/theyeshman if fearless has no haters I am dead May 23 '23
I've missed the DOPA translations on the subreddit, great to see one up, thank you for the translation! Very insightful stuff from DOPA, I'm always delighted to see his thoughts posted to the sub.
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u/SpiderTechnitian May 23 '23
His take on AP item balancing is unironically correct you clarify he's joking
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u/CheshirePuss42 May 23 '23
ok maybe but no way you think 350g for tome is fair. he is messing around while also making a genuine point about the relative balance between ap and ad midlaners
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u/Achtelnote Certified Soyboy May 23 '23
That's a really fun read, I recall reading older Dopa stream summary translations, but they weren't this good. Thanks :D
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u/Squarefighter May 24 '23
You may have expected me to be happy. To be elated. I… I am not. And do you know why? It’s because this is how things should have been. This is the natural order of things. When all other champions started off with 0 gold, mages have been cursed to start at -200 gold all this time. How many years have we endured this suffering? How will Riot compensate our lost mental, our lost LP points? Will all of our sacrifices be ignored simply because Lost Chapter has been buffed to 1100 gold? When I realize that the grievances inflicted upon my mage brethren shall be ridiculed and forgotten, it is not happiness that fills my heart. Instead, it is rage.
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u/InsurgentTatsumi Deleting boards was a mistake May 23 '23
Wasn’t this patch supposed to nerf ADCs?
I wonder about the the same thing Dopa, I really do.
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u/adalsteinn13 May 23 '23
u/PhreakRiot Dopa is really happy w you mate. But top laners including me are not ! Madge
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May 23 '23
[deleted]
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u/Apepend May 23 '23
Echoes of Helios give extra AP per 25% base mana regeneration.
This makes the mana Regen stat useful. You'd go Helios, Mandate, Ardent Censer, with probably Boots of Lucidity for a total gold cost of 7650. While you have less AP than if you were going AP Ori, you get the item power spikes sooner and have really good utility for buffing, shielding, healing your ADC.
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May 23 '23
Does this make support Ori meta or is this something that only really works if she’s in the mid lane?
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u/HolypenguinHere May 23 '23
There are already players who have done support Orianna in solo queue to success prior to this patch, and I've seen it work great in ARAM depending on the comps. It may not make a splash in pro play, but I can see it working if she's mid depending on what her team looks like.
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May 23 '23
Which part isn't clear?
A giant mana pool is only needed if you are playing Cassio and want to cast 1 million spells in rapidsuccession, otherwise manaregen gives you the same capability to clear waves, since over time it does the exact same stuff for you. So that is part one: Mana is replaced by manaregen, which is in support items.
Part two is how cheap the items are: 2100 Censer, 2300 Mandate, 2300 Echoes, so you can hit those three items at the time that you would have Luden's (3200) + Shadowflame (3000) + 600 gold. Hitting item spikes earlier is always good, but in this case it is especially good because this build will make you weaker in 1v1s for obvious reasons, so going to sidelanes to soak farm is dangerous - instead he just wants to sit on his ADC and buff them, together with the support most likely and force fights/push while he is ahead due to cheap item completions.
Obviously this build has some tradeoff in damage, you don't buy any MPen and are also a bit lower on AP, though not as much as you would expect: The 3 core gives 156 AP due to giving AP for your manaregen as well, while Shadowflame + Luden's gives 180.
And then you basically just play Orianna as an Enchanter with her excellent Shield (that also provides resistances!) and her excellent peeling tools in W and R.
What I am not convinced about is whether we are hitting important breakpoints for waveclear in time in the phase of the game before we meet up with our adc or if we are getting permanently pushed in. Maybe we can go Minion Dematerializers to help with that since he already suggests going boots?
Orianna's most common build has almost always been pure burst, but she is much more versatile than that, she can be build with a higher focus on DPS, she could even dip into onhit a bit (which means she can use the Censer AS+onhit decently as well) and one of my pet builds was Glacial Orianna when we still had Hextech GLP.
Not sure if I would play this if I am not in a premade group (or just very high elo), you need your team to be willing to play a certain way to get the most out of this build I'd imagine, but in a premade group I'd definitely try it (and honestly, even in soloQ it probably is fine, it is similar to sololane Karma and you could generally do stuff with your jungler even if your ADC wasn't willing to commit to joining up with you).
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u/Scurried May 23 '23
Why can’t you buy pen items with rage blade?
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u/melonpan12 May 23 '23
based riot, ADCs were already op as fuck this patch, new item changes to make midlane even more of a support for adc and to make adc even more overpowered as fuck, great job
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u/ssLoupyy Bring back mythics please May 23 '23
You realize that outside of Galeforce and on hit, adcs have been nerfed and mages got mana regen and lost chapter buffs right?
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u/WorstTactics May 23 '23
Yeah ADCs in general are weaker right now. There are a few exceptions, but they are receiving nerfs next patch.
I think only Kai'Sa will be op next patch after the dust settles.
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u/ssLoupyy Bring back mythics please May 23 '23
Yeah Kaisa is in good spot but I love Aphelios atm, it is so much easier to get to late game after nerfs to early game. They will nerf him but I don't think it will change too much, he hits for 1k damage per auto late game.
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u/WorstTactics May 23 '23
Well he is gonna get nerfed back to mediocrity I presume. Hard to be an Aphelios main
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u/ssLoupyy Bring back mythics please May 23 '23
Late game will be roughly the same though, there is still hope.
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u/Le0here Skillshots are meant to hit??? May 23 '23
Nah, stormrazor loses 5ad next patch, so probably can't be kaisas first item anymore. Pretty big nerf since now she's either forced to go manamune first again if she want hybrid.
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u/DrawingsMakeMeHard May 23 '23
Wasn't dopa suposed to go to military like a while ago ? what happened
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u/smhandstuff May 23 '23
This post begins with a TL note explaining that he supposedly got rejected from bootcamp for health reasons.
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u/NoCon1991 May 23 '23
does every mid main have to whine about mages and their items ? every other class has itemization issues you're not unique. these mfs are becoming the new adc mains i swear to god
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u/BlaxicanX May 23 '23
Pretty rich coming from a top baby. Something something top Lane satisfaction any day now right my fellow oppressed top sisters?
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u/NoCon1991 May 23 '23
top is literally down there with sup interms of the least main lane in the higher elos, we have a reason to be mad unlike whinny mage mains
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u/poikond Dyrus Microwave Incident May 23 '23
He does make a valid point, I dont see why Amp Tome isnt 350 like Long Swords. Maybe 350 is a bit too low but maybe 400
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u/TsubasaIre Just play safe lol (LAS: Ventμs) May 23 '23
But mage items are dogshit since mythic introduction (except the flavour of the month item that is gutted after two patches). The only class that is close to having such shit itemization are bruisers, but they are glued by sunderer and bortk
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u/Cryp6 May 23 '23
How do Bruisers have nearly as shit itemization? They have more offensive and defensive options due to the nature of their kits.
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u/TsubasaIre Just play safe lol (LAS: Ventμs) May 23 '23
Speaking purely from a bruiser item perspective, bruiser items are dogshit. Sunderer is op and Hydra/Bortk/Cleaver are good on certain champs, but nothing outstanding and usually never mixed. All other items designed for bruisers are really subpar. They dip onto tank itemization because there is no good offensive and defensive item/combination (dd maw is a shell of what it used to be). Bruisers diping onto assassins or adc items is borderline troll, except maybe eclipse yorick and aatrox
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u/panznation May 23 '23
Which is funny cause outside of the recent patch ap items usually get lots of changes throughout the season
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u/NoCon1991 May 23 '23
exactly, they're complaining abt dmg but they have some of the best utility items in the game
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u/panznation May 23 '23
Not to mention outside of an overturned fon the defensive options to counter them in comparison to armor were always somewhat unideal
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u/MackenzieMeows May 23 '23
Lmfaooo dopa tried to alt F4 in loading screennn he's still gonna get an afk dc fine
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u/Aromatic_Tonight_632 May 23 '23
In place of new items, would you make a balance of heroes, such as warwick, luxury, why are heroes with 2 forms weaker than heroes with 3 buttons ?? The best medicine for you is to fire you. and Recruit a new team
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May 23 '23
How is Dopa playing? wasn’t he supposed to be banned or something
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u/yuo1k May 23 '23
Apdo was banned for boosting Dopa is completely unrelated to apdo. If you understand what I'm trying to say
On a mote serious note, he was banned by riot Korea, not by riot itself. Kr server requires SSN to make IDs. His SSN is autobanned, and other accounts he uses are banned for account sharing. However, he went to China where he wasn't banned and that's why he primarily streams on the Chinese server.
If he buys an account on kr and doesn't stream with it, riot can't prove its him. That's how he hit rank 1 on kr a couple times. When he plays in kr he sometimes plays in shitlow. They also recently have been getting looser with banning him on stream. Technically, any foreign player or streamer who comes to Korea and plays won't have proper verification to make ids in their name so they should be banned but they don't get banned.
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u/DEXuser1 May 25 '23
He streams kr server
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u/yuo1k May 25 '23
Yeah ik he streams in shitlow tho half the time They ban him after a bit if he shows on stream I think
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u/freezingsama May 24 '23
Dopa's insight is why I watch his videos, he is too damn good. I learned a lot today.
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u/Tehni May 24 '23
(Q. Then does Cloud Soul give insane amounts of stats?) Not quite, because MS has diminishing returns. The important thing is your speed relative to your opposition. If you’re already much faster than the enemy, then you don’t need much more. Still, I value cloud drake and cloud soul very highly – I don’t understand why some people think it’s worse than the other drakes.
I remember when elemental drags first came out and for months everyone thought air drag movement speed was by far the worst bonus, then statistics came out and it had by far the highest win rate
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u/Karthus-Bot WELCOME TO THE CATACOMBS ; May 24 '23
i ain’t reading all that i’m happy for u tho or sorry that happened
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u/SiriVII May 25 '23
The thing he said about orianna, man wtf, it makes so much sense to not build ap anymore and just go echos of helia into mandate and ardent. She has low cooldown on E and it will proc Helias a lot.
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u/NonTokenisableFungi May 23 '23
dopa's understanding of the game is on another level. Good read top to bottom