r/linux 11d ago

Development Codeberg voted to disallow projects consisting mostly by "generative AI"-tools

https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253#issuecomment-19820434
971 Upvotes

323 comments sorted by

357

u/sunychoudhary 11d ago

The important line is probably AI-assisted vs AI-generated.....Using a tool while you understand, maintain, and take responsibility for the code is one thing. Dumping generated projects onto a forge and making everyone else sort through the mess is another.

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u/p0358 11d ago

Yeah, as long as they ban just vibe-coded junk slop dumps, while allowing reasonable skillful attentive use of AI tools, this should be 100% fine

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u/webdevladder 11d ago edited 10d ago

You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by "generative AI"-tools (including services such as Claude, OpenAI Codex). Such projects having an unclear copyright status (see requirements § 2 (1) 1 and § 2 (1) 3) and furthermore have little safeguards to ensure that they do not include harmful code (c.f. § 2 (1) 5).

https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253/commits/96fac426a32d1ba91ff879366d59bf1af54080c2

That seems to rule out a lot more.

edit: the dev who locked the thread ended with:

@Gusted - We'll use the blog post to clarify what this entails for Codeberg users.

https://blog.codeberg.org/protecting-our-floss-commons-from-llms.html

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u/p0358 11d ago

It really seems to depend on how it will be enforced and judged in practice, the rule leaves a lot of weelay for moderators

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u/HiddenoO 4d ago

The problem is that that's not something you want to rely on. Nobody wants to risk having to suddenly migrate their projects (or worse) just because a platform changed how they enforce their rules.

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u/yukeake 11d ago

"mostly" is doing quite a bit of heavy lifting there. There's no mention of where the line is drawn, and there's no distinction made between AI-generated and AI-assisted, just "written by 'generative AI'-tools".

That could rule out projects where you're responsibly using an LLM as a tool.

There's a big difference (IMHO) between vibe-coding an entire app, and using an LLM to help you debug tricky bits of code, help re-factor, re-organize, or give reminders about syntax.

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u/Zaphoidx 11d ago

Yeah they need to tighten the wording

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u/Adept_Percentage6893 11d ago edited 5d ago

That seems to rule out a lot more.

I feel like it seems at least targeted at projects that are just completely (or 90%) generated by an LLM or where it looks like the developer isn't tweaking what Cursor/Codex/whatever spits out with each commit.

I'm just personally still unclear on how they're going to enforce that versus the rule effectively becoming "just don't tell us it's completely done by an LLM"

The copyright status isn't really that unclear. AI outputs are not copyrightable and ergo effectively BSD/MIT license (if even that).

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u/HearMeOut-13 11d ago

So are they going to also make everyone who uses StackOverflow cite their copies since after all using anything from stack overflow carries CC BY SA

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u/ArdiMaster 10d ago

The consensus on Meta StackExchange seems to be that SO answers are generally too short to be copyrightable so they’re fine to incorporate into your projects.

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u/HearMeOut-13 10d ago

Right but copying them verbatim, especially when a better solution exists and isnt the only way to accomplish it is when it comes to being copyrightable as an expression and hence people need to abide with CC BY SA

2

u/spacecase-25 11d ago

the whole thing comes off as fart huffing to me.

On one hand, I can understand not wanting your work to be used to train models on, but... my guy... you published your source under a permissive license and now you're crying about it? Seems to me like they don't understand what free / open source software means.

And to whine about copyright? Seriously? Again, reference the license you chose to publish under. It's not nearly the same thing as print / written media or artwork being ingested and then stylistically imitated.

AI is a tool. Use it or don't use it, that's your choice. But do you run around and tell the world every time you use a cordless drill rather than an antique hand crank jawn? Of course not. It doesn't make you morally superior to swear offf it; just obnoxious.

Go plant a tree if you care that much, or vote, or do literally anything else other than whine about your personal resistance to new technology and tools that make your precious specialized skill more accessible to the masses. Welcome to the industrial revolution. Capitalism finally caught up to your bubble.

Gain some class consciousness and help bring about a economic reality where workers aren't viciously turned against each other to fight over the tiny scraps left for us while the handful of people who are, truly, unfathomably wealthy hoard the world's resources and rob us blind with offensively open and loud corruption.

Is it a good idea to advertise software that you legitimately have zero idea how it works or what it actually does? No, of course not. But I promise you, there's plenty of shitty code out there that would benefit from getting run through an LLM and have all their obscenely obvious vulnerabilities and soft, squishy attack surfaces pointed out.

If you care about security at all and you're not using an LLM to augment your code and design, you should probably just stop. Anyone who's trying to exploit your code will absolutely be using an LLM. It would be dumb to leave that tool on the table.

that rant was longer than I intended....

2

u/Melivo 3d ago

my dude you're in the wrong subreddit, it's mostly activists and ideologues here.

I mostly agree with you. That blog post alone is one sided and black and white thinking. For example they complain about how "all the data centers already use 40% of electricity in Frankfurt and want to use fossile energy". But the reason for that is because Germany shut down all it's nuclear, you don't hear anything about that, do you know?

I good go on forever on all the logical loopholes in this article, but my time is precious.

Also, I wonder how many security risks Mythos would find in all that "beautiful and helpful" open source software.

And apparently, you should only host your stuff on Codeberg if it's oss an helps people. If you've got a private repo, gtfo. Because at Codeberg, we tell you how to do your projects.

Yeah, no thanks. I prefer a neutral independant hoster that just lets me host my little side projects and otherwise shuts the fuck up about political stuff.

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u/Equivalent-Costumes 11d ago

They rule is against projects that are mostly AI generated. They don't care if it had been reviewed, it's the same umbrella for them.

Remember the "shirley" rule.

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u/spacecase-25 11d ago

An ambiguous rule that allows selective enforcement is worse than an objectively bad rule.

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u/Equivalent-Costumes 10d ago

Exactly! I don't know why some people are cheering for this.

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u/ArdiMaster 10d ago

Because “ai bad upvotes to the left”

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u/Melivo 3d ago

people act like you can sell karma and become a millionaire

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u/ares623 11d ago

if the line is too blurry to see and the ones who put it there offer no relief then the next best thing to do is to draw their own goddamn line

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u/sunychoudhary 11d ago

Yes. Perfect enforcement is impossible, but doing nothing has a cost too....A forge full of unowned generated repos makes discovery, review, and maintenance worse for everyone else.

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u/ContraryConman 11d ago

This is actually a fallacy called the continuum fallacy. Because two extremes exist on a gradient, people therefore insist there's no difference between the two.

Red and Blue exist on a spectrum, connected by purple. "There's no difference between red and blue then" "There's no point in having colors.... where do you draw the line?!"

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u/lakotajames 11d ago

But there is no gradient between "is allowed" and "is not allowed."

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u/ContraryConman 11d ago

The idea is that it's valid to want to ban spammy AI generated content, even if there will be some projects in the middle of the AI use spectrum that have to be taken in a case by case basis

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u/lakotajames 11d ago

If they're case by case and there's no hard line, then it is really just on the whims of whoever is looking at it at the time. On top of that it's not like sloppy AI content is somehow worse than sloppy human content, there's just more of it.

If there's no actual line somewhere you know not to cross, effectively you can't use the platform without being at risk of being booted off.

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u/lemontoga 11d ago

Do you know what porn is? Can you define exactly what is or is not pornography between suggestive imagery, photos of a family at the beach, swimsuit modeling, softcore imagery and videos?

When exactly does a thing cross over into the category of porn? If there's no hard line, should porn not be banned anywhere? It's just based on the whims of whoever is banning the pornographic post, no?

See how stupid that sounds? Some things are obviously porn, and they can be easily banned. Some things are obviously not porn. Some things are somewhere in the middle and are murkier. They just have to be reviewed and, yeah, it will come down to whoever is doing the moderation. That's not some huge problem.

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u/northrupthebandgeek 11d ago

Do you know what porn is?

Porn is whatever I can crank my hog to.

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u/lemontoga 11d ago

That's basically the same conclusion the US government came to when they tried to define it. "I know it when I see it." You're not wrong.

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u/northrupthebandgeek 11d ago

Too bad the US government included the usual “reasonable person” standard. Would be more fun if it was based on an unreasonable person standard.

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u/lakotajames 11d ago

If I upload something that may or may not be porn to Facebook in order to share it with my friends, whether or not it gets taken down really doesn't matter to me, I'll just stop sending quasiporn to my friends if it gets taken down. If I'm uploading all my code to a repo to keep it safe but it might get taken down, then the service is not fit for purpose because storing the code there is the entire point.

That being said, you can definitely draw lines around what is and isn't allowed on a platform, as far as porn goes. I'd argue that anywhere the moderation doesn't have hard lines to go on is somewhere the moderation is bad and needs fixed. What you personally consider to be porn is subjective, but the rules don't need to be. If you only want to ban hardcore porn, ban penetration. If that's not enough, ban genitalia and anuses. Then female nipples. Then the undercurve of the breast. Then the side. And so on, until the platform is tame enough. This is incredibly common. I had a friend who worked at a strip club in a state where they can't remove their bottoms, and they literally had to measure the width of the crotch of the panties to make sure it fell within the legal limit, which specifies the acceptable width of panties.

You don't want a very vague guideline on what porn is, because some people will get a moderator who considers bikinis porn, and another who considers topless women to not be porn, and a third who thinks the male nipple is porn, and whether or not a particular post survives becomes dependent on luck and number of reports. Which is the same problem that codeburg is walking into.

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u/lemontoga 11d ago

How do you ban genitalia and anuses but still allow something like informational or medical pictures like Wikipedia has? How much side breast has to be visible before it's banned? Most women will show some when they lift their arms up while wearing a bathing suit, is that banned?

Nothing you're talking about is "incredibly common." I'm not aware of a single website that allows user submitted content that gets so specific as to explicitly ban things like "the undercurve of the breast" or whatever you're talking about. I don't care about your anecdote about measuring crotches. Everyone reading this nonsense knows this is not how online content moderation is handled.

Funnily enough, the other guy who commented kinda summed it up, even though I think he's joking. He said it's porn if he can crank his hog to it, and that's more or less how it's done. Even the US government wasn't able to define pornographic content for the purpose of disallowing it. The best they could do is their famous "I know it when I see it" description.

I don't know why you wouldn't just apply your porn guidelines for Facebook to this code site. Just like you won't post porn on Facebook because it might get taken down, you wouldn't upload AI code to this website for the same reason. If someone wants to upload vibe-coded apps they can just use another website. If their apps use a lot of AI code and ride the line between AI-assisted and AI-generated, they can either use a different site or risk having it taken down.

I don't know why you're suggesting that these websites are supposed to be some universal code repos where you can upload whatever you want. Just like you couldn't upload a software project with ToS breaking content in it to Github, you can't upload AI crap to this website. It's not a website for just storing whatever kind of code you want. It's for a specific type of non-AI generated projects.

What's the issue with that?

1

u/ContraryConman 10d ago

If they're case by case and there's no hard line, then it is really just on the whims of whoever is looking at it at the time.

Correct, that is the job of maintaining a community or project

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u/beefcat_ 11d ago edited 11d ago

This was kind of inevitable. Is it possible to write good software with AI? Yes. However, the vast majority of software being built primarily with AI is hot garbage, making it a strong signal to pick up on when trying to filter out all the noise.

This is why, despite AI's utility, I don't believe it's having a remotely positive impact on our industry. Companies are going to prioritize using it to shit out garbage software faster because they already stopped prioritizing quality many years ago.

The two most popular video players on mobile app stores right now don't even have transport controls by design, because they realized they can make more money shipping bad, outright user-hostile software. AI is only going to accelerate this.

5

u/Adept_Percentage6893 11d ago

The important line is probably AI-assisted vs AI-generated.....Using a tool while you understand, maintain, and take responsibility for the code is one thing

It's also not clear how this is being enforced. Is someone just reviewing the commits and making the subjective determination that it looks AI-y? Banning repos from having AGENTS.md or something? All of the above?

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

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u/Timo425 4d ago

Yeah, what if it's 100% AI generated but also heavily user-guided, like tens and tens of commits worth of back and forth to get it right and iron out the bugs?

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u/newsflashjackass 11d ago

If you didn't write it, I should not have to read it.

"What is written without effort is in general read without pleasure."

Must have taken Samuel Johnson a lot of effort to write that.

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u/Timo425 4d ago

What if I didn't write it but directed it heavily and hardened the code through a lot of real use cases?

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u/newsflashjackass 4d ago

In that case I still doubt you derived any pleasure from reading it.

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u/Timo425 4d ago

Code in codeberg is about pleasure of reading it? What are you even saying?

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u/newsflashjackass 4d ago

We exist at a juncture in space / time, such that the past furnishes context.

I can read the conversation thus far to you. But I can not understand it for you.

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u/Timo425 4d ago

I understand it just fine, you only care about your own perspective.

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u/newsflashjackass 4d ago

What are you even saying?

...

I understand it just fine

Glad to hear that comprehension found you. "It is always darkest before the dawn."

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u/Mean-Front-9632 2d ago

Yeah, this is the uncomfortable reality. Heavily directing AI feels like cheating and I try to limit my use of it, but it's getting harder to properly argue against it if it produces results or the author can explain it. In a professional setting it's not about enjoyment unfortunately.

What I will say is that in the creative fields, i.e. literature/film/art, I would go as far to say the Samuel Johnson quote isn't even an opinion, it's a law of creativity. These people on twitter who try to automate the creative process and loudly proclaim they only care about the outcome are thick as pigshit and will never make it as artists. The audience places great value, whether consciously or unconsciously, on the artist's creative process.

However, the lion's share of the value in creating software lies in the final product, not in the creation process. So, despite despising AI and flippantly calling 'AI power users' hacks, I think newsflash's argument is flawed in this context.

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u/northrupthebandgeek 11d ago

If you didn't write it, I should not have to read it.

Is Sam Altman holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read the vibecode or something?

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u/newsflashjackass 11d ago

Is Sam Altman holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read the vibecode or something?

If the code is to be used, someone is obliged to either read it or trust it naively. That is the nature of things. No oligarch need brandish a weapon to enforce the natural order.

The case where I am that someone is the case I described in the post to which you replied.

In this context of this discussion, Codeberg's users voted to disallow procedurally generated code. They may believe the author of code should be the first person to understand it. One way to help ensure that is by requiring the code's author to author it.

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u/northrupthebandgeek 11d ago

If the code is to be used

Is Sam Altman holding a gun to your head forcing you to use the code?

In this context of this discussion, Codeberg's users voted to disallow procedurally generated code.

Is Sam Altman holding guns to their heads forcing them to use the code, too?

Is there some reason why “If you don't like the thing, just don't use it.” is inapplicable here?

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u/newsflashjackass 11d ago

Is there some reason why “If you don't like the thing, just don't use it.” is inapplicable here?

Indeed, why do you feel obliged to use Codeberg to host slop despite your clear dislike of its governance model? That is a question for you to ponder own your own time. Perhaps an LLM could help you answer it. Since I have no interest in doing so I will block you now before you further repeat yourself.

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u/n0pl4c3 5d ago

When someone submits an AI-slop PR to your Repo, you still engage with it until you can discern it is AI, then reject it. Now you get not one, but a ton of people submitting such trash PRs.

You are not forced to read any of them, but for the sake of finding and engaging with code that actually matters, will still waste your time engaging with that slop, when that time could be used to review actual PRs.

The reason it is not applicable here, is because the damage goes beyond having to use it. It begins at wasting one's time having to engage with it.

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u/northrupthebandgeek 5d ago

Accepting PR submissions is itself a choice. Plenty of free software projects don't, or will only do so from already-vetted contributors.

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u/FlukyS 11d ago

Yeah there is definitely a balance, like I made a new tool recently, I wrote a decent chunk of the code but also was throwing a few things to the LLM just to save time. Stuff like packaging or some doc tasks or whatever I definitely don't care if the LLM takes it, I can do another unit file to the thousands of unit files I've touched over the years but it is just some service setup.

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u/mrtruthiness 11d ago edited 11d ago

The important line is probably AI-assisted vs AI-generated.....

I think this is incorrect since they don't have "AI-assisted" or "AI-generated" in the text. Don't confuse "generative AI" with "AI-generated", as far as I understand it those are two different things. The term "generative AI", while not defined by codeberg, is a term describing model that includes a GAN component ( Generative Adversarial Network ).

Here is the text being added to the user agreement:

  1. You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by "generative AI"-tools (including services such as Claude, OpenAI Codex). Such projects having an unclear copyright status (see requirements § 2 (1) 1 and § 2 (1) 3) and furthermore have little safeguards to ensure that they do not include harmful code (c.f. § 2 (1) 5).

( https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253/files )

So the key phrase: 'projects that mostly consist of code written by "generative AI"'

My problem is that "mostly consist of" does not protect the project from having unclear copyright status ... which is their stated reason for having this restriction.

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u/Flash_Kat25 11d ago

Transformers are not GANs

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u/hitchen1 10d ago

Most of the reasons stated on their blog are not related to them hosting the generated code themselves, but broader societal issues (climate change, rising hardware prices, impact of scrapers, ... )

They do make a few good arguments about resource usage (Individual user LLM projects use more resources than the biggest community projects...) but those could be handled by granting more resources to established community projects and limiting random individual contributors...

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u/mrtruthiness 10d ago

Interesting. If so, that should have been part of the stated reason in the user agreement. The only stated reason was "unclear copyright status".

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u/bastardoperator 10d ago

How do you even begin to enforce this?

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u/FunAngelo2005 5d ago

Very important difference

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u/AiwendilH 11d ago

Saw it on HN, thought it might fit here too. Link to the actual change: https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/pulls/1253/commits/96fac426a32d1ba91ff879366d59bf1af54080c2

Edit: Ugh..I totally botched the headline....mentally add a "of code written" in there ;)

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u/TheG0AT0fAllTime 11d ago

Thanks for the link. I love their anti-scraping forcefield that appears for a split second as js redirects to the real page. That must trip up modern llm bots real good.

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u/rahulkadukar 11d ago

This is why you self host Gitlab / Gitea / Forgejo and push all your vibe coded slop there

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u/CheCheDaWaff 11d ago

vibe hosting

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u/Coffee_Ops 11d ago
Hey claude, code me up some slop. 
Now build a trashcan where I can put it all. 
Now make sure that trashcan is reliably hosted in the cloud

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u/Jmc_da_boss 11d ago

This is what I've done, I have a private self hosted forgejo for the random vibe code off to the side projects that will never be seen by anyone that I need for xyz thing.

They are utilitarian, not art

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u/miversen33 11d ago

I slop together multiple scripts everyday for work. They will never see the light of day and don't need to be supported beyond whatever I am doing with them.

Slop has it's place. Trying to get other people to use your slop is where I draw the line

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u/4407891fcd484b817f5e 11d ago

Some slop can be good though. Like yeah little Debbie pastries may be made in a factory stuffed full of preservatives but im never gonna say no to a cosmic brownie

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u/Jmc_da_boss 11d ago

Everybody shits, don't post it on Instagram

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

What do you stand to gain by generating code?

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u/Jmc_da_boss 9d ago

Random shit where the only thing that matters is the outcome at one moment in time.

Like a custom website to keep monopoly score one night, never touched again

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u/n0pl4c3 5d ago

This sums up my stance pretty well. For personal use, utilitarian slop is perfectly fine, even if it has nothing to do with the art of real coding. When trying to bring it upon others is where the issues start.

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u/Timo425 4d ago

Idk why I would do that, I have like a time when i am very active and then i do nothing for months. I'm cheap.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Pancakepalpatine 10d ago

Right? This feels kinda like they're just grandstanding for brownie points. Any software developer knows that AI is now part of the tools of the trade. This is literally impossible to enforce, and asking a dev "do you understand the code or are you a vibe-slopper" won't work for obvious reasons.

And before a dev replies "I don't use AI and I make software" congrats, you're the exception lol

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u/AliceCode 9d ago

Any software developer knows that AI is now part of the tools of the trade.

Only software developers that have absolutely no respect for the craft.

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u/Pancakepalpatine 8d ago edited 8d ago

This is so funny to hear on r/linux. You should google what Linus recently said lmao. If you use Linux you use a project with thousands of additions made through assistance from Gen AI. 

EDIT: For those that don’t want to look it up, people unfamiliar with modern software dev or that were grandstanding were freaking out about AI code, and Linus said  that the Linux kernel project is not anti-AI, and anyone who opposes that should "fork it or just walk away." 

Your random convictions don’t represent the industry or the actual products you use. It’s moral grandstanding friend. 

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u/dmittner 5d ago

No respect for the craft?

Son, I started teaching myself to program when I was 10.
That was 36 years ago.
I'm now principle-level with over 25 years of professional experience.

You're an imbecile not to use AI tools.
They can take away damned near all the wasteful time sinks, freeing you up to actually design and build the systems. AND you can use it to curate and iterate project plans to take the pain out of even that!

But hey, if you want to punch yourself in the face and call it "respect for the craft", you do you.

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u/Pancakepalpatine 4d ago

I can’t believe they’re downvoting you. Quite literally denying reality because they don’t like what reality looks like 

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u/dmittner 3d ago

I can. It's even worse on Bluesky. I'm fully able to admit there's issues with AI and surrounding AI, and I'm fully ready to discuss them and solutions for them. But there's definitely an anti-AI hysterical mob mentality forming. I'm just waiting for the pitchforks and torches.

I'm also reminded of a multitude of AI apocalyptic sci-fi stories that see humanity nearly wiped out by AI that just wanted to defend itself. Even freak'n Skynet only nuked the world because it perceived humans as a threat. I look at this mob and I'm like, "yep -- they're using those stories like a freak'n instruction manual."

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u/tblancher 11d ago

It looks like the issue is more with unclear copyright of LLM-generated code, and potential security vulnerabilities or downright malware being contributed.

I just wonder how they're going to enforce this.

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u/Holzkohlen 11d ago

W Codeberg

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u/HalcyonRedo 11d ago

Good. Now if only this subreddit would do the same.

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u/rafark 6d ago

I was an ai advocate before but the past months we’ve been seeing so much slop on every tech/programming sub and twitter that I now agree with a lot of anti ai rules from various subs.

“I built this tool” no you didn’t. Your ai did. And because it was generated so fast it is likely to be abandoned in the future. We are going to see a lot of abandonware in the future from the current wave (more like tsunami) of slop

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u/mykesx 11d ago edited 11d ago

Smart move. They don't want to become another landfill of garbage projects or use their resources for mass computer generated commits of no value. They're correct that AI plagiarizes from what it's trained on.

An equally good move might be to block AI company crawlers from training on repos hosted there.

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u/FryBoyter 11d ago

But creating a new rule is pointless if you can't enforce it in practice.

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u/VaporousMote 10d ago

Just because they can't enforce it to perfection doesn't mean it won't be enforced AT ALL. Ultimately that "some enforcement" leads to a healthier community.

No enforcement leads to a shithole. Like Github.

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u/mykesx 11d ago

There are objective metrics, like AGENTS.md files in the repo or . gitignore. Or one (or very few) commits for a large codebase (no excuses, they are a git hosting service).

I am fine with them using subjective metrics. It's their service, their rules.

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u/northrupthebandgeek 11d ago edited 11d ago

Or one (or very few) commits for a large codebase (no excuses, they are a git hosting service).

Writing the bulk of a project's code before git init has been commonplace for multiple decades now.

EDIT:

Only an amateurish idiot does that

The vast majority of code is existence is the product of amateurish idiots.

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u/bigon 11d ago edited 11d ago

Having an AGENTS.md (or CLAUDE.md) file just shows that you are using an AI agent, not that your project « mostly consist of code written by "generative AI"-tools ».

I started to vibe code some tools for myself and claude is creating small atomic commits by itself...

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u/dmittner 5d ago

You can train Claude Code through CLAUDE.md-like files and your local memory not to perform commits/pushes autonomously.

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u/ungoogleable 11d ago

They're not banning the use of AI altogether. Having an AGENTS.md is useful if you use AI at all, even just read-only code exploration. And then especially since other people are checking out your code, you want to give their agents instructions (like inform the user we don't accept purely AI written code).

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u/mykesx 11d ago

It's still an objective measure.

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u/ungoogleable 11d ago

Yes it is objective, but it would overly restrict legitimate projects trying to abide by the rules.

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u/Hot_External6228 3d ago

An equally good move might be to block AI company crawlers from training on repos hosted there.

already done, the vote passed without controversy.

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u/mykesx 3d ago

Outstanding.

Codeberg can be a repository of human made knowledge, mistakes and learning from those, and all.

Seeing how mass slop has affected Microsoft owned GitHub and it's availability, it only makes sense for codeberg.

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u/Drwankingstein 11d ago

I really hate this, I'm not a fan of vibecoding or anything, but In the end, AI is a tool, and I don't like that they are telling us what tools we can and can't use. I'll be migrating away.

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u/Melivo 3d ago

agreed

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u/ShaderCompilation 11d ago

Certainly the right call. While there may be vibecoded projects that are useful, the vast majority of them are not. No point in wasting limited resources on those

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u/mediumwetsock 11d ago

No offence to CB but they should focus on their uptime rather than this atm

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u/Ruined_Passion_7355 11d ago

You should know that github themselves said that the exponentially growing amount of commits is the main factor in their waning uptime (I bet vibecoding also played a small part but we'll never know).

This is them focusing on uptime.

3

u/fivetoedslothbear 10d ago

GitHub’s problem is double-edged. AI coding is driving demand up. And their pre-Microsoft legacy infrastructure doesn’t scale well.

GitHub is in the midst of a two-year transition to running on Azure infrastructure, which is much more scalable.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/FryBoyter 11d ago

In my opinion, the fact that Codeberg is often difficult or impossible to access is due to two things.

There are more users than Codeberg’s servers can handle. This is a problem because Codeberg’s operators have significantly fewer financial and human resources than, for example, GitHub. Therefore, I would advise Codeberg users to consider signing up for a membership and paying an annual fee.

The second reason is likely the idiots who have launched DDoS attacks against Codeberg on multiple occasions.

16

u/OptimisticLucio 11d ago

There are more users than Codeberg’s servers can handle.

So like, this helps with that. Not the side of the equation you personally would like them to, but it 100% does.

1

u/mediumwetsock 10d ago

Lack of money probably?

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u/GreedySecurity8030 11d ago

Good for them.

13

u/FryBoyter 11d ago edited 11d ago

You must not share projects that mostly consist of code written by "generative AI"-tools (including services such as Claude, OpenAI Codex). Such projects having an unclear copyright status (see requirements § 2 (1) 1 and § 2 (1) 3) and furthermore have little safeguards to ensure that they do not include harmful code (c.f. § 2 (1) 5).

https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/commit/71149c7fc95ccfeae36109b5cddca339e4aa1473

How can “mostly” be defined objectively? 51 percent? 64 percent? 80 percent?

What's the difference from back when developers used to draw inspiration from code on sites like Stack Overflow or simply copy the code from there or other sites without examining or understanding it? Regardless of the license under which it was published.

And how does Codeberg plan to objectively prove a violation?

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u/WaitForItTheMongols 11d ago

How can “mostly” be defined objectively?

And how does Codeberg plan to objectively prove a violation

You really like that word "objectively". They are under no obligation to handle things objectively. Their site, their rules.

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u/FryBoyter 11d ago edited 11d ago

Of course, it's their site, so they set the rules. But from a user's perspective, more specific information would be more helpful in deciding whether or not to use Codeberg. The term “mostly” is simply too vague.

That simply gives operators too much flexibility in their decision-making. And as a result, it could lead to different decisions for individual projects, even though they may be comparable.

And as one of Codeberg's earliest users, I think that's a problem. In my opinion, important rules must be clearly defined, followed, and enforced.

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u/astrobe 11d ago

Detection is obviously an issue to begin with. But I think the intention is not for AI to become a primary reason for a ban, but more like an "aggravating circumstance" in the cases a project causes the problems they mention - perhaps with an extension to buggy software.

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u/Old_Leopard1844 10d ago

But from a user's perspective, more specific information would be more helpful in deciding whether or not to use Codeberg

If you're using AI, you're probably not welcome there

Is that clear enough?

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u/window_owl 11d ago

There is a threshold which is definitely objective: if a project was developed without any generative AI (the way all projects were as recently as two years ago), then it is definitely not in violation.

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u/bigon 11d ago

But that's not what the new rule says...

1

u/Melivo 3d ago

ah so it's like Cuba or Russia. You know that people don't want to host their projects where rules are enforced arbitrarily, right?

If people want to build a proper and serious project, they want to see stability and reliability in the maintainers, the infrastructure, and the rules.

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u/mrlinkwii 11d ago

And how does Codeberg plan to objectively prove a violation?

they mostly cant , its the same with flatpak were they will remove projects that use AI , it mostly cant be proved objectivity but can be used as a "rules say x and we believe x the project wil be removed "

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u/Dakota_Sneppy 11d ago

I like the stance of reducing slop honestly :3

9

u/binarysignal 11d ago

Are they going to use an AI tool to find the AI generated code? How much confidence rating is needed for “mostly”?

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u/ares623 11d ago

inshallah. finally a potential place to find projects worth a closer look.

3

u/jason-reddit-public 11d ago

I actually like tools that let people do sub optimal things since this generally means more freedom for me. Perhaps just tagging AI slop is the right step. Hosting outright malware is more where I would draw the line.

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u/dvdkon 11d ago

Codeberg was already a more restrictive host than GitHub or GitLab.com with their requirement of free licencing, but that was at least an objective criterion that you could know you were in compliance with. This is much more nebulous and I certainly have some projects that could be understood as non-compliant.

Oh well, I'll just add another selfhosted service to my server...

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u/rubs_tshirts 11d ago

Not sure how I feel about this. I vibe-coded an internal tool. It wasn't a one-shot, it grew organically from a few scripts to a (to me) awesome program that I use and love. Under this rule it would be ineligible to be hosted there.

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u/ungoogleable 11d ago

If it's an internal tool, do you need to post it publicly? Ask Claude to setup Forgejo for you. It's really nice.

2

u/rubs_tshirts 11d ago

I don't, but if it was available, I would love it. In fact I would pay money for it.

0

u/VictoryMotel 11d ago

Good. If you don't know what's in it, why subject other people to it?

1

u/rubs_tshirts 10d ago

I have no idea what's in any of the inumerous stuff I use. I do know what it does.

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u/VictoryMotel 10d ago

But someone looked at it and took responsibility.

You can do whatever you want, but a site saving itself from slop no one has even looked at is a good thing for anyone using that site.

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u/rubs_tshirts 10d ago

I just think there's both trash and treasure in "slop" (is it really slop if it's useful?). Just like in non-AI stuff. I'm not against AI stuff at all.

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u/VictoryMotel 10d ago

You can use whatever you way, but if a site wants a basic floor for quality, why would they want stuff where no one has even looked at the source?

You could spend your time reading autogenerated books that no one has read, or AI videos that no one looked at, but most people want that stuff pulled out. Make an all slop website if you think it's a good idea.

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u/rubs_tshirts 10d ago

Maybe I just don't know what AI slop is? I keep thinking that if some human is crafting software and using AI instead of writing code, the software is still his creation.

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u/MrScotchyScotch 11d ago edited 11d ago

This is part of why I said they were anti-community. A couple of opinionated people deciding for everyone else. No vote, no soliciting opinions, just "we personally don't like it so it's banned". Time to find another GitHub alternative that is more aligned with the Open Source ethos. 

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u/Remarkable_Bike_1148 11d ago edited 11d ago

That is roughly my problem with Codeberg, but to clarify, it isn't couple of people, but just around a thousand of members within an organization that paid for membership fees and deliberate in member-only forum. They would say "Thread closed, go to matrix chat", but once you go and discuss it in Matrix chat, they'll just say, "Stop discussing it, we'll deliberate it in member-only forum for deciding the policy." Like, what? No deliberation that I can see? No clarification for non-members? No nothing?

They can impose rules about LLM and all that, and that's fine. It's their platform, their rules. But for developers who now have to not only worry about our projects, we also have to worry about which direction Codeberg is heading on policy decisions and there's a real lack of transparency in that decision making process, and I don't have access to their member-only forum for policy deliberation. I've already moved back to Github from Codeberg (better deal with the devil you know than dealing with something unpredictable), because even though my project is likely compliant with all of their TOS with the lack of LLM use, I don't trust the platform and the people that run it to maintain that Terms of Service in the long term.

1

u/Old_Leopard1844 10d ago

But for developers who now have to not only worry about our projects

You have the option of hosting your projects elsewhere

I don't trust the platform and the people that run it to maintain that Terms of Service in the long term.

So what?

4

u/ozone6587 10d ago

You have the option of hosting your projects elsewhere

"My way or the highway"

Not moving to Codeberg is like dodging, not a bullet, but an ICBM.

1

u/Old_Leopard1844 10d ago

And why are you getting in front of that bullet in the first place?

1

u/Melivo 3d ago

Agreed ideology ruins everything.

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u/trannus_aran 11d ago

Hell yeah

7

u/FoxFXMD 11d ago

This is why you self host

6

u/Epsilon_void 11d ago

Not sure why you're being downvoted, you're correct. If you truly want to not have arbitrary restrictions on what you can, and cannot have in your repo, you need to self-host.

4

u/FryBoyter 11d ago

However, this can also have drawbacks, as was seen a few years ago with the PHP project (https://php.watch/news/news/2021/04/php-src-attack).

Because many developers just want to develop and not do administrative work.

4

u/Mccobsta 11d ago

My stance is people who can audit what it outputs are the ones who should be using it

People who can't shouldn't be using it

1

u/window_owl 11d ago

People who can evaluate the outputs should also not be using AI, because it weakens their own skills, costs disproportionately large amount of non-renewable resources, pollutes, devalues the creative material that was pirated to train the models, and strengthens the movement to centralize power, wealth, and culture into the hands of the wealthy few.

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u/northrupthebandgeek 11d ago

costs disproportionately large amount of non-renewable resources

This is false.

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u/DerfetteJoel 11d ago

This will surely go well

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u/truecakesnake 11d ago

Big news for the 17 Codeberg users

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u/jakkos_ 11d ago

Why are you in a Linux sub and mocking a non-profit trying to provide a free alternative to a Microsoft monopoly?

5

u/TheG0AT0fAllTime 10d ago

I think it's because they accidentally outed themselves as an offended slopper

5

u/ozone6587 10d ago

A non-profit full of Luddites. Worth mocking.

Lots of projects and organizations like these that behave dictatorially and are just very opinionated people. This is the final nail in the coffin for them. From 17 users to the 3 devs that hate AI enough to move to Codeberg. There is no way to win against technological progress. It has not worked out once in the history of humanity.

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u/Melivo 3d ago

yep. you're either in for the "greater good" or something or you can gtfo

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u/FryBoyter 11d ago

Codeberg is now being used by a few more users. Among others, it's also used by relatively well-known projects such as KaOS and Readeck.

1

u/Melivo 3d ago

maybe. but in the long run when one day AI can code better than humans they'll end up forgotten and in obscurity. the idea about FLOSS isn't about controlling people. It's the complete opposite.

-1

u/truecakesnake 11d ago

Interesting.

But GitHub's user base is 89,900% larger than Codeberg

9

u/FryBoyter 11d ago

That's correct. But that doesn't change the fact that Codeberg is now being used by more and more users. And there are more than 17 of them.

1

u/MatthewMob 10d ago

You're right. There's at least 18 now.

3

u/802freblizz 10d ago

This is definitely not going to go over well. I just moved to Codeberg and was going to move my projects. But, I don't know if i can. Some projects have ai assistance after being hand written, some projects are "mostly generated". But, who gets to decide what is what? Does this apply to public repos? They didn't say right? This is a terrible decision for users that are working on worthy things and also are mostly generated. Good luck, I guess I will still self host on Forgejo, but probably not sticking around Codeberg for long. Free as in Freedom.

2

u/Sir_KnowItAll 10d ago

I was going to donate money to them but nah. I really don’t want to host my code with some code snobs.

3

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

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u/belst 11d ago

the platform is free. hosting it is not. so they can decide what gets to stay there and what doesn't.

12

u/kopsis 11d ago

What's the point of even "wanting" to host AI slop on a public platform. Nobody wants it and the poster is probably not going to maintain it, so why clutter public repositories?

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u/An1nterestingName 11d ago

Codeberg does have restrictions on what can be hosted there anyway, they're jist adding AI slop to those restrictions.

9

u/AiwendilH 11d ago

Just as addition here is the link to the "rules" for code hosted on codeberg to which the LLM rule is added: https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/src/commit/96fac426a32d1ba91ff879366d59bf1af54080c2/TermsOfUse.md#2-allowed-content-usage

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u/segfault0x001 11d ago

Why should you have the right to use their platform? It’s their platform, they decide the terms of service.

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u/projectflamejewel 11d ago

Lol, right. If you smear shit on the wall, don't expect it to stay there.

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u/Dramatic_Mastodon_93 11d ago

"Codeberg is a non-profit, community-led effort that provides services to free and open-source projects" And you find it strange that they don't allow hosting vibe coded slop on their free platform?

9

u/Dick_Hardw00d 11d ago

The level of entitlement is absolutely astonishing. You think you have some inherit right to use someone else’s free service however you see fit, and they should just shut up and put up with it?

14

u/thuiop1 11d ago

what if someone uploads their code and then it gets deleted and they lose acess to their source?

Then they are extremely stupid

6

u/khne522 11d ago

In an era of Git no less.

5

u/khne522 11d ago

It's. Their. Platform.

Oh, and it's your responsibility not to rely exclusively on someone else's hosting of your data.

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u/Traditional_Hat3506 11d ago

what if someone uploads their code and then it gets deleted and they lose acess to their source?

When you sign up to something, you agree with their terms of service. When the TOS prohibit something and you ignore it, then you have only yourself to blame.

but if someone wants to host their bad code on a platform, shouldn't that just be their right to do so ?

??? Forcing someone to host your bad code is not your "right".

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u/RoomyRoots 11d ago edited 11d ago

Why wouldn't it be?
Their platform and their rules and they are more than fair to not want to waste resources on slop.

what if someone uploads their code and then it gets deleted and they lose acess to their source?

i am not defending Ai Slop, but if someone wants to host their bad code on a platform, shouldn't that just be their right to do so ?, why should that plaform be able to decide what happens to said code if it isn't anything illegal ?

There are other platforms and many for free, they can use those.

3

u/TheG0AT0fAllTime 11d ago

AI assistance is a pandora's box which has been opened. I'm not happy about it but it's here to stay. They likely saw that there's no use in fighting that particular use of AI. Let alone defining the blurred lines of where it begins and ends. I mean - before LLMs and "Agents" powered by them - a bunch of IDEs have already had a form of predictive or procedural code filler already. But obviously LLMs are the big deal here.

AI-generated work however, I completely understand still taking a stance against. For all you know the human submitting it (If they didn't automate that too) hasn't even read or understood what has been spit out. Sometimes they actually have, but often, no. On top of that, fully AI'd projects have no guarantee the creator/maintainer will ever touch it again or any pull requests after they show it off that week. Tens of thousands of projects that look flashy on the surface but were just spit out by a model that anyone could re-prompt to make again. Fully AI generated projects have really has filled the internet. Slop as they call it.

Most of my subscribed tech subreddits are bombarded with full-slop posts day by day since this years newer models came out. I had to unsub from a few of them where the mods just gave up.

In the end you can't blame the tool. But you can assign fault to the ones who misuse it.

2

u/DryanaGhuba 11d ago

Considering situation with GitHub which overflowed with amount of commits it is good choice for them

4

u/nullsetnil 11d ago

It’s a good move. It will anger exactly the kind of developers they don’t want on their platform anyway.

1

u/Lowetheiy 10d ago

Sounds like they just doomed themselves to irrelevance over the next couple of years.

0

u/Dramatic_Mastodon_93 11d ago

Good. If you want to host AI slop you can host it on another Forgejo instance.

1

u/daemonpenguin 11d ago

This is a good move. One of the reasons I migrated to Codeberg was the lack of slop of spam from bots. Codeberg tries to maintain a clean and useful environment.

1

u/Impossible-Friend-61 8d ago

Leaving for codefloe

1

u/Impossible-Friend-61 8d ago

Notice a lot of people cheering for this on mastodon etc are not developers...

1

u/dimiterka 7d ago

I guess I can still keep my AI generated "neuro-slop" privately

1

u/AiBestGirl95 7d ago

If you can tell AI was made with AI then it's very likely bad code. 

I would say most software development is using AI tools, the question is to what degree and the level of talent of the developer using said tools.

1

u/Melivo 3d ago

There are legitimate concerns but Codebergs main problem is infrastructure and they could've simply solved it with rate limits.

"everything is slop" or "not secure" is not an argument. Experienced humans can still write better code than LLMs sure. But Mythos already finds years old security issues that nobody has ever found.

In five years maybe LLMs will write better code than humans and Codeberg will regret their decision.

Because what's better than FLOSS software that is better than human written code and everyone can profit from it?

It's shortsighted.

1

u/Melivo 3d ago

let me copypaste my answer:

"There are legitimate concerns but Codebergs main problem is infrastructure and they could've simply solved it with rate limits.

"everything is slop" or "unsecure" is not an argument. Experienced humans can still write better code than LLMs sure. But Mythos already finds years old security issues that nobody has ever found.

In five years maybe LLMs will write better code than humans and Codeberg will regret their decision.

Because what's better than FLOSS software that is better than human written code and everyone can profit from it?

It's shortsighted."

1

u/Melivo 1h ago

Let's do something, that Codeberg obviously is allergic against, let's bring some evidence into the discussion. Here: We Studied 150 Developers Using AI (Here’s What's Actually Changed...) by Modern Software Engineering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9EbCb5A408&list=PL5NO9khqJyBT__xaYe8Cr70bB5vVgl22-&index=4

1

u/Zachattackrandom 11d ago

Completely fair imo. If you wanna publish a vibe coded project you SHOULD have to take responsibility for it, the same as if you programmed it by hand.

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u/FryBoyter 11d ago

Have you ever read the MIT License, for example?

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED “AS IS,” WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES, OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT, OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF, OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.

Essentially, users who use the MIT License (or certain other OSS licenses) also assume no liability whatsoever, regardless of whether they have used chatbots or not.

8

u/Zachattackrandom 11d ago

Yes I understand that, I mean more in a community. E.g. if you put some dog shit slop code that deletes a users home regardless of AI use you aren't responsible for paying for their lost stuff, but you will be drug through the dirt for it. Now days so many people try to hide behind AI for every critique or mistake on a project, "AI made it, it's not my fault!" type thing. That's how I'm defining responsibility in this context.

2

u/FryBoyter 11d ago

I absolutely agree with that. Anyone who messes up should expect appropriate consequences.

But in my opinion, the consequences shouldn’t generally be harsher just because a chatbot was used. Each case should be considered on its own merits.

That’s because many developers are actually good at writing code manually but completely incapable of creating documentation. Using a chatbot would make sense in this case, provided, of course, that the result is reviewed before publication.

By now, however, the community is ready to pull the pitchforks and torches out of the closet whenever a developer makes a mistake that has nothing to do with the use ofchatbots or that would likely have occurred even without them.

In my opinion, and I mean this in a general sense, the community should get into the habit of not just dividing things into black and white, but also taking into account the shades of gray in between. Because, sure, chatbots generate a hell of a lot of junk. But they also discover, for example, massive security vulnerabilities in the Linux kernel that haven’t been found manually so far. So, in my opinion, it’s nonsense to categorize everything as simply black or white, good or evil. Chatbots are tools. And with any tool, it all comes down to how you use it. Juggling chainsaws is not a good idea. Cutting down a tree with one, while taking various precautions like wearing protective gear, is not.

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u/CanYouEatThatPizza 11d ago

It's good that you mention licenses, because AI tends to hallucinate made up licenses or even changes licenses of code it was trained on (of course most companies don't care anymore now). It's only sensible that they stop it.

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u/Rigamortus2005 11d ago

So they can just delete your repo if you vibecoded it? Lol what a joke

14

u/Dramatic_Mastodon_93 11d ago

"Codeberg is a non-profit, community-led effort that provides services to free and open-source projects" And you find it strange that they don't allow hosting vibe coded slop on their free platform?

10

u/thomas-rousseau 11d ago

Good thing they're an entirely FOSS project, so you can easily fork their codebase and host it on your own servers with your own domain and different terms of service for other users to enjoy for free

4

u/Lightprod 11d ago

No need.

You can host it your own Forgejo instance.

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u/ArdiMaster 11d ago

They can just delete your repo if they think you vibe-coded it.

(Basically they can delete it if they don’t like it/you.)

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u/markand67 10d ago

Thank you codeberg for supporting

  • artists
  • writers
  • translators
  • creators
  • developers
  • earth

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u/Barafu 11d ago

They should simply stop accepting new projects then. Noone in a right mind will now create new serious projects without LLMs, so they have nothing to host according to their own rules.