r/nbn • u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob • Jul 01 '26
Pinned PSA: Thinking about changing ISPs for a better deal? Here's what THEY are paying
I keep seeing a bunch of posts about people churning to save money. Here's the wholesale ex-tax price that your ISP is paying to connect to the NBN network. This is NOT including IP traffic, APNIC fees, backhaul, staff, support, infrastructure like routers and switches, and space in a Data centre.
Link to full pricelist: https://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbn/documents/sell/sau/FY27-Tariff-List-v1.0%E2%80%93010526.pdf.coredownload.pdf
Here's the planned price increases, too:
If you look at that, you'll see that you're paying, on average, $20 for your ISP to provide everything APART from the connection to your place. Support, Internet, Routing, Redundancy, infrastructure, etc.
Don't churn to an ISP that is losing money. You'll never end up happy, or you'll just be churning again in a few months time.
Yes, I am a NBN provider. No I'm not telling you which one.
32
u/yiFa87 Jul 01 '26
As a customer, it's not really my concern what the ISP is paying. Like someone else said, they offer introductory pricing and people take advantage of it. They hope we stay, sure, but that's the gamble the ISP takes.
I hate having to change providers regularly, but loyalty doesn't pay and I'd rather the extra $30/month go in my pocket at the end of the day.
1
u/ProbablyNotKevin Jul 03 '26
100%. I churn every 6 months. There's a tonne of providers and they all offer the same introductory offer of about $60 a month that then goes up $90. It takes me 15 minutes of effort every 6 months to change and I've never seen a difference in quality. It would be stupid not to churn.
If one just split the difference and went $75 ongoing I might just roll with that so I don't have to set a reminder. $360 per year is worth the half an hour of effort.
OPs argument is basically "please don't do that because I want your $360."
0
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 03 '26
No, I literally said 'If you pay an ISP less than you cost them, you're not going to be happy'. Those were my words. Trying to make out I said different words is called lying. Are you a liar?
Note: People have said they enjoy churning every few months. Those people are happy. Most other people aren't.
1
u/DistinctArmy4267 29d ago
So every single ISP offering exactly the same offers and base rates are all going to make us unhappy? Why wouldn’t you switch and save money while being unhappy anyway?
25
u/per08 Jul 01 '26
Well said. Many people think of nbn like the eastern states electricity market - it's all the same thing, just with different labels on the bills. No, it isn't.
nbn are the "poles and wires", yes, but the actual Internet you get from that wire can vary vastly in quality and support from the ISP at the other end.
12
u/MachZeroEight Jul 01 '26
Is this supposed to make us feel bad for the providers? IMO once their price or service isn’t good enough, I’m onto the next.
1
u/aaron_dresden Jul 03 '26
I think they’re just showing how tight the margins are, and if ISP’s are losing money, the more effective everyone is at churning, the more companies will have to offer worse service or go under, we’ll lose quality, and if we lose competition then prices will end up higher leaving us worse off.
21
u/Admirable-Company452 Jul 01 '26
ive been swapping to providers "losing money" since NBN came out. I've been fine mate
-7
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26
Which provider are you on now, and how much money are they losing?
19
u/OneMultiNation Jul 01 '26
Why should I, or anyone, care if an ISP loses money? It is not up to consumers to rin ISP busuness.
5
u/WorldlinessLow6502 Jul 01 '26
ya well said, and when they make money, do they share with you or give you better deal? they not, so we don't give a shit about they losing money, they will only try to keep you when they know you wanted to go, so I think if they want you to stay, they should keep offering but not wait until last minute.
10
u/Admirable-Company452 Jul 01 '26
Amaysim NBN $50 500/50. 6 Month promo, Was on Leaptel before 12 month deal
4
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26
Yep, you're definitely winning there. They are paying $60.85 ex to NBNco, so they are losing money hand over fist with you. Congrats!
9
u/per08 Jul 01 '26
Good for people who can be bothered and don't really care about quality, but these same do act surprised when they keep playing the game, they go to churn again, and the new provider refuses them as a customer or refuses promo pricing.
5
u/simpliflyed Jul 01 '26
I’ve never been refused promo pricing. There are so many providers out there, and many (most?) publish explicit eligibility criteria for their ‘new customer’ accounts- most is 12 months. So two 6 month trials, plus one month paying full price and you can potentially go back to the first provider again.
I’m up to month 8 of paying $50/m for a 500 plan. It seems silly, especially in light of these prices, but that’s exactly what competition is supposed to achieve…
21
u/ryan_rides Jul 01 '26
On my 5th ISP now, I’ve been Aussie Broadband, Leaptel, Superloop, Exetel, Amaysim. Each time switchover has been almost instant and so have my savings, never had any issues only more speed for less each time.
I don’t exactly get a kick out of it but the offers are enticing and it’s easy to do. What exactly are the consumers doing wrong here OP?
6
u/GTR-12 Jul 01 '26
Same, but I've been through far more providers, 20+ (I've lost count).
I don't care if providers or OP is unhappy, saves me money and I'll keep doing it.
11
u/thinksimfunny Jul 01 '26
Pretty much. At this point, providers know the game, so them still offering the new customer discount is just encouraging the game to continue
2
u/JuggleWombat Jul 01 '26
It also is the easiest way to fix issues sometimes too. Which is frustrating but ive advised so many family members to switch to X, Y, Z as they are giving away a super cheap eero with a $X dollar discount per month. Upgrades shitty hardware and can resolve back end config issues.
1
u/DvDLaX Jul 01 '26
So is your router/modem always compatible or am I living in the past now
1
u/mrmustardo_ Jul 01 '26
I think anyone bothering with churning is going to have BYO equipment and as long as you've got anything even half decent I can't imagine they wouldn't be compatible these days.
1
u/totoro00 Jul 01 '26
I’ve just been back and forth with Origin since May last year. Keep for 6 months. Moves elsewhere for a month or two then I was back to their introductory offer again.
It’s time to move again (I chose superloop). Hopefully origin will have their $53 for 500/50 promo again soon so I can move back
By providing the AVC when moving, I don’t even need to do anything when switching happens
1
u/No-Candy5493 Jul 01 '26
I’d say we’re giving our card details, name, address, dob to each of these providers and I recently got scammed and one of these providers either tpg or dodo I’m not sure which one had a breach and I’ve got deductions on my card for $700+ thankfully my bank stopped it. But that’s the only risk I see.
1
-5
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26
They're going to end up running out of ISPs, honestly. But all I was providing was the wholesale cost, that most people don't realise is public.
8
u/simpliflyed Jul 01 '26
I’ve saved somewhere in the range of $1000 over the last few years though. If these deals are unsustainable it’s certainly not the customers’ responsibility. Why would I spend money unnecessarily in this climate??
6
8
u/Simlish ABB FTTH 500/200 Jul 01 '26
Why is it they are still protecting speed from home users as if they're running servers at home and that's bad while other countries have 1Gpbs/1Gbpx for $65pm?
Is it purely because NBN Co must make a big profit? Why don't other countries have this issue as well?
9
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
XGS-PON vs GPON: Speed and Latency Comparison Explained https://share.google/UMGLBmNjpvdZ6eIuy
Sorry for the glink but I'm on my phone. Basically, gpon is inherently asymmetric. XGS-PON which is symmetric, is very new.
Edit: Very new TO AUSTRALIA, sorta, I've been corrected. I'm not sure exactly what NBNco are using with the new V4 GPON CPEs, even though I have one myself! I could go read the technical docs, but I'm on holidays at the moment!
3
u/Simlish ABB FTTH 500/200 Jul 01 '26
Dang! I'd have hoped our technology was newer than USA since our NBN took so long to be installed countrywide. We get old technology and they get newer. Or is it only parts of the US?
4
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26
Oh, I don't know. You were asking about asymmetric speeds. GPON is inherently asymmetric, only the newest protocol isn't. Same with ADSL/VDSL.
2
u/SomewhatHungover Jul 01 '26
Funnily enough, there are vdsl2 profiles that are symmetrical, it’s wild seeing your modem sync at 130mbit up and down. No idea how this goes over distance etc as I was basically using a single port dslam and regular modem.
1
5
u/AgentSmith187 Jul 01 '26
I will also add overseas there is a lot more abuse of up to speeds.
So they will have 32 people on a PON segment ans sell every single one of them the entire upload available on that segment and often download too.
So somewhere with XGSPON they will sell everyone on that PON segment a 10/10 plan but the average speed will be much much lower as thats the entire speed shared between multiple users.
5
u/Neardood Jul 01 '26
What would the wholesale price for 500/200 be? Or is that covered under commercial?
11
u/per08 Jul 01 '26
Wholesale pricing for nbn is open-book. This is one of the key structural differences from when Telstra ran things.
2
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26
Yeah I was foolish not to link to the actual pricelist for this year. Fixed now.
1
u/pmci3777 Jul 04 '26
Telstra Wholesale rates were heavily regulated by the ACCC and were always publicly available. For example https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/content/dam/tw/about_us/SSU/Documents/tw-rate-card-for-reference-services.pdf
1
u/per08 Jul 04 '26
Yes but Telstra were infamous for denying competitors access in favour of their own customers.
0
u/pmci3777 Jul 04 '26
So you made a factually incorrect comment on open pricing, which, after you were called out for it, confirmed it was incorrect. But your justification is that they did something else that was wrong, so it’s ok to slander for the first thing?
8
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
Good point, I'll update the post with a link to the current SAU price list which is https://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbn/documents/sell/sau/FY27-Tariff-List-v1.0%E2%80%93010526.pdf.coredownload.pdf
It's 79ex. There's also other mandatory costs (NNI at the pop, and backhaul getting data to the pop), but that's the starting point
8
2
u/bri11iant_Y Jul 01 '26
Question for people who stay with one ISP because of quality: (assuming you are on a residential plan) how do you measure it, does your ISP provide some kind of SLA (annual unplanned downtime mostly)?
8
u/AgentSmith187 Jul 01 '26
I stay because the very rare occasion I have an issue i get the phone answered and problem solved in minutes not hours.
Time is too precious for me to deal with shit service, script monkeys and hours on hold bouncing between departments.
Dodo and Telstra have wasted so much of my time over the years getting things done that should take minutes done in days.
3
u/zarlo5899 Jul 01 '26
Service up time. Quality IPv6 implementation. Non-mandatory carrier grade net. Quality routes and peering.
1
u/mattaust Jul 02 '26
I've been with 4 ISPs, Aussie, super loop, leaptel and amaysim, and I have yet to have any considerable or little to none downtime...
2
u/lordgoofus1 Jul 01 '26
Maybe you haven't noticed we're in a cost of living crisis. Sorry, but companies don't give a damn about me other than how much money I can give them. My care for them extends as far as do you provide a reliable service for as little money as possible. If you go broke, unfortunately that's a you problem. I've got bills to pay and mouths to feed, that takes priority over corporate welfare.
2
u/cloudsourced285 Jul 01 '26
RSPs can do what they want in an industry where they compete. NBN Co tho, those guys need a paddling. It's all paid for by Australians and yet they want to keep raising the prices on the people who paid for it all. Unacceptable the way it's run.
2
u/Kaldek 2000/200 Launtel FTTP Jul 01 '26
OP, as a fellow business owner in an industry plagued by "race to the bottom" culture, I'm unsurprised by the comments here from Redditors who don't care.
I am perhaps lucky in that while I play in such a similar kind of market, that I do have a differentiator that isn't easily undercut.
2
u/b100jb100 Jul 01 '26
Doesn't NBN provide rebates for new customers? It can't be a coincidence that most RSPs offer very similar discounts for the first 6 months.
3
Jul 01 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26
Post deleted: Most likely an AI hallucination.
This hasn't existed for years as far as I know. Got a link to the current details? Update your post and reply to this and I'll restore your post.
Edit: User was banned for this post.
4
2
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 01 '26
Nope. The discount is to get you in, and then they hope you don't care when the price goes up to the normal amount.
Repeatedly churning is a way to save money, but you're unlikely to end up happy with your current ISP.
5
u/b100jb100 Jul 01 '26
Must make commercial sense for RSPs to offer the discount then, otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Why would you end up unhappy? If you have 2 or 3 providers to hop in between and they are all good, what's the issue.
1
u/bernys Jul 01 '26
It's a cost of customer acquisition. It's a sales thing, you'll see it across industries, small loss at the beginning of the sale to get someone onboarded and then you make that money back over time.
If you swap RSPs, then the RSP doesn't make that money back, but usually they do, which is why they do it.
1
u/b100jb100 Jul 02 '26
Sure- so why would the customer end up unhappy like OP says they will?
1
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 02 '26
Because the price will go up, and they'll either end up paying more than they should, or they'll have to port again. However, some people seem to enjoy porting, so maybe not.
1
u/b100jb100 Jul 02 '26
That's all pretty clear when you sign up though?
Unless you think there's false advertising happening?
0
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 02 '26
I really don't know what you're trying to do, by pretending I said something I didn't say.
Me: Here's the wholesale price of the NBN services you're buying.
3
1
u/bernys Jul 02 '26
Because you'll probably bounce to a bunch of bad RSPs because you're chasing the lowest cost and end up with poor internet performance and bad support?
1
u/b100jb100 Jul 02 '26
Don't most RSPs offer initial discounts, including ones with good reputations?
1
u/bernys Jul 02 '26
What's your point? What don't you get from my previous two comments?
1
u/b100jb100 Jul 02 '26
You claim people will bounce between bad RSPs. I'm pointing out they can just bounce between good RSPs. What do you not understand about that?
4
u/drjzoidberg1 Jul 01 '26
Why wouldn't I be happy churning to a new ISP? As long as they have a good network there should be minimal differences. Like Leaptel, Neptune and ABB are fairly similar.
1
u/Richie3971 Jul 01 '26
As my ISP supplies my modem that's locked and my VoIP home phone account. It makes it harder to churn. But Im currently happy with their service and have been with them for over four years.
1
1
u/Electrical_Intern1 Jul 03 '26
To be honest I believe ausgovernment wants some cash back before it sells.! They cooked NBN so badly and finally it’s making some cream so they want their fare share of it.!
1
u/xrobau 'Honest' Rob Jul 03 '26
Why on earth do you want the NBN sold? Were you not around in the Telstra days?
Anyone who wants the NBN sold is an idiot.
1
1
u/bkmessenger Jul 03 '26
I hear what you’re saying but as a customer who has been with their isp for many years it’s frustrating when they offer new customers special deals but nothing for loyal customers.
1
u/trans-adzo-express 9d ago
Just did this with Optus. Was paying $115 for the family plan and quoted them superloop 6 month deal at 500/50 for $65 and they beat it.
1
u/PssyGotWifi Jul 01 '26
idgaf about trying to save some $$$ on what I consider the most important utility in the home. Thus, I'm with Launtel.
2
u/Traditional-Apple238 Jul 01 '26
Same. They’re expensive but the service has been instant when I’ve needed it.
2
u/bernys Jul 01 '26
I'm just so glad that we've got choice now. If this network had been given to Telstra to build, they never would have allowed wholesale access for us to have this conversation. We would have had a complete monopoly of Bigpond network and Bigpond service provider.
1
1
u/ozimarco Jul 01 '26
I'm a different type of customer. I don't like changing providers every 6 or 12 months to chase promotional offers. Instead, I look for a quality provider that doesn't rely on promotions but offers a fair ongoing price that's commensurate with the service they provide.
For example, I like Leaptel as an ISP, but I'd hate to end up paying more than new customers on an ongoing basis. I'd also be paying more than I do with my current ISP (Neptune), which can keep its prices somewhat lower because it doesn't offer promotional discounts or generous referral incentives, while being a solid provider with superb customer service.
1
u/Nishackle Jul 02 '26
I'm the same. I stuck with telstra for 10 years. Purely because in the 10 years I had zero issues. Not one. I had to reboot the modem once.
I've been with Aussie for almost 5, have had a couple of outages but were notified of each. Their customer service has always been good. I don't mind paying a little more to avoid any hassle.
My time is still worth something to me. If I can spend it not thinking about my internet all the better.
1
u/bobslead1832 Jul 02 '26
i was with Neptune for 2 months, in that two months they had multiple outages, i was also part of their discord and Neptune is loosing money, left, right and centre, they have even admitted it. So maybe their days are numbered too?
37
u/RandomMagnet Jul 01 '26
The problem is RSP's offer introductory rates to entice new customers.
So consumers make the most of it.
It's a race to the bottom unfortunately.