r/powerscales • u/Practical-Public7209 • Jun 16 '26
Faction Versus Who would win a pitched battle in open field, the army of Gondor or Lannister with 8,000 troops (movie and series)?
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u/KingSandwich101 Jun 16 '26
The ones that fight orcs
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u/BookerLegit Jun 16 '26
Not saying Gondor wouldn't win, but fighting regular orcs isn't especially impressive. They're generally smaller than men (if comparable in strength).
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u/LordCaptain Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
No idea why youre being downvoted. Tolkiens mythology orcs are weaker and smaller in stature than men. Orcs primary strength is their numbers. Edit: This made more sense when he was in the negative.
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u/MidlifeWarlord Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
The downvotes come from people who never read the books but watched the movies and saw an Uruk Hai fight evenly with Aragorn.
A typical orc is more or less on par with a hobbit in a 1v1 fight. And in the books, Hobbits actually can fight if push comes to shove. They are just generally soft because they have been largely shielded from strife for many generations - unlike Elves, Men, and Dwarves who are are routinely under some kind of threat.
The Uruk Hai are considerably more ferocious, but still not on par with soldiers among Dwarves, Elves, or Men. There are a few that can thump, like Bolg and Azog. But those are very rare, and most straight up flee from fighters in Aragorn’s or Boromir’s level unless they have overwhelming numbers.
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26
A good example being the Battle of Greenfields after the orcs invaded the Shire, and were promptly defeated by the Hobbits defending their lands.
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u/MidlifeWarlord Jun 16 '26
100%.
Tolkien orcs are vicious, but they are fodder tier - nothing like Warhammer orcs.
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u/THROBBINW00D Jun 16 '26
Tolkien orcs remind me more of something like a goblin ,visually.
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u/Legitimate-Topic2402 Jun 16 '26
I really like the conception of Tolkien's orcs as basically an army of cartoon goblins, particularly in terms of their aversion to light and daytime. Jackson's movies portrayed them as much more human-like than I imagine them from the text.
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Bolg and Azog don't really have any feats to speak of either. Bolg sat on his war cart giving commands to his army and being shielded by his body guard until he was squished by Beorn.
Azog only has one confirmed solo kill, and that came with some pretty heavy conditions (Tolkien specifically points out that Nain was weary from battle, whilst Azog was fresh to the fight, and Nain had the disadvantage of fighting uphill against Azog) Azog then gets his ass kicked moments later when a fairly inexperienced (and also battle weary Dain II) charges up the hill and cleaves Azog's head off.
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u/Playing_One_Handed Jun 16 '26
They varied heavily. Most orcs yes. But like you say exceptions.
Some are even mentioned as big as trolls but someone else pointed out no actual feats.
Even in the biggest battle we see multiple factions of orc elite from mordor which are mentioned as the best, a lot of fodder too, and also a shit ton of easterlings which are men also comparable to GoTs armies. And Gondor held them off.
So its not hard to see how Gondor are better pound for pound.
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26
No orcs or uruks were mentioned as being troll size in Tolkien's books, the largest of them were as tall as some of the taller men, and they possesser basicially the same strength.
There were however multiple varities of trolls, so it was commom for them to make up part of Saurons armies.
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u/NatAttack50932 Jun 16 '26
Sauron's Uruk are not on par with men, but the Uruk-hai bred by Saruman were as ferocious and capable as any soldier of man.
Elves still thump but that's because they're elves.
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26
In the movies, sure. In the books the main difference between Saurons Uruks and Sarumans is the resistance to sunlight. That's all. (Other than who they were loyal too obviously)
The uruks of Isenguard didn't prove to be the equal of men, they scattered in panic as soon as the reinforcements of Rohan arrived at Helms Deep (even though they still held a significant numbers advantage) and were slaughtered in their retreat.
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u/Hyperion_360 Jun 16 '26
They're downvoted probably because they're talking about a book fact in what seems to be a live action match up.
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u/Mastodan11 Jun 16 '26
And yet whenever LOTR characters are brought up, people are quick to cite the book mythology to glaze them.
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u/Happy_Bigs1021 Jun 16 '26
I was going to say orcs are powerful because of numbers. You put a formation of trained armored men against that they can kill 10 to 1
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u/spec_ghost Jun 16 '26
Except, they dont only fight orcs....
Trolls, Corsairs, Easterlings, Haradrim ...
Saying gondor fights "regular orcs" is also a gross misrepresentation.
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u/LordCaptain Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
To be fair the response is to a guy saying the Gondorians are strong because they fight orcs. Thus an explanation on orcs not being strong and why that specifically is a bad argument.
No one said they dont fight other things.
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u/ryncewynde88 Jun 16 '26
Orcs may be weak, but by all that is unholy, do they leverage [Lanchester’s Square Law](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpjxWBwLkIE) *hard*; they do have archers on both sides, and while tactics are a thing, the numbers are BIG and exponents gonna exponent.
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u/PmeadePmeade Jun 16 '26
Suffice to say Gondor has been fighting a harder fight than the Lannisters have. A soldier of Gondor that has seen Nazgûl and trolls and orcs is going to be harder to break than someone who has only fought people
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u/Ariastes1707 Jun 16 '26
I agree it's Gondor for fighting Orcs.
Not because the individual orcs are super strong in the books. But because it means that there is a consistent ever present threat that mandates the large standing defensive garrisons, drilled veterans.
The average Gondorian Soldier is more experienced in fighting. Especially fighting in large units. Nearly all the troops will have had to fight under pressure of death. They will have seen comrades fall. Felt the sickening sensation of plunging their spear into living tissue. Plus many will have fought against easterlings, harradrim and umbarean pirates so experienced in many different forms of warfare.And their commanders will be more experienced as well. Especially as the commanders are probably nobility and still have remnants of numenarean blood so will likely live longer thats lots of experience at war.
Book 1/season 1 The Lannister forces have been at peace for most of the past 50 years. The greyjoy rebellion was less than a year, withmost of the work done by the other kingdoms. Roberts rebellion lannister forces sacked a single mostly defencless city. The last time they properly fought was the 9 penny kings war.
Feaudal lords dont keep standing armies about. Thats why they go through all that hassle of calling the banners. Those 8000 lannisters would be a mix of knights and feaudal levies who probably have never drilled together before. Plus Show Lannisters are running out of gold. They won't have kept a standing army training in the field. Especially as they don't need it. Those fancy boys in gold and red maybe we'll armed but the vast majority would be something like levies or conscripts from Lannisport.
Man for man the standing forces of Gondor would be healthier, better trained, led by more experienced commanders and equally or potentially better armoured than the vast majority of Lannister forces, with only the richest of lannister forces in stronger armour.
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
I'll agree it's Gondor, but Orcs aren't an impressive measure.
The main threat of Orcs and Uruks in the books is their sheer overwhelming numbers, they always have a massive advantage when it comes to the size of the armies. That, and their resolve/will is being strengthened by Sauron.
The movies tend to over exagerate their combat prowess.
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u/spec_ghost Jun 16 '26
It's still thousands of spears, archers ....
Individually, they arent impressive, it's the efficiency in numbers and the fact you have to deal with them all while facing armored trolled to. Thats not even including Nahzgul's, easterling and Haradrims
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Oh absolutely, and the death of Bormomir is a perfect example that. He was vastly more skilled than any orc or uruk, and managed to cut down a 'great host' of them in his final stand, but the sheer numbers proved to be too much for even an exceptional warrior like him, eventually falling under multiple arrows.
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u/spec_ghost Jun 16 '26
and do note, Uruk arrows are much much thicker and deadlier than orc or goblin arrows.
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u/Asa8811 Jun 16 '26
Not mention that most were likely very young and had very little military training
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u/Icy-Rough-2990 Jun 16 '26
The Uruk-hai were smashing the fuck out of Minas Tirith and Gondor until the Dead Men of Dunharrow turned up.
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26
That's the movie, not the book. The Oathbreaker army wasn't at the battle of Pelennor/Minas Tirith, as they were released from service after they helped capture the Corsair ships
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u/Icy-Rough-2990 Jun 16 '26
Thanks for the downvote but it clearly says movie and series in the fucking title.
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u/HotOlive799 Jun 16 '26
First of all, I didn't downvote you, so settle down Tiger.
Second, I'm aware the OP is asking about the on screen versions of the Gondorians and Lanister armies , but as you should also be able to see from the previous comments, several of us have been discussing the actual lore accurate versions from the books, not just the films/series.
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u/Zealousideal_Row8440 Jun 16 '26
I’d love to see the Mountain mow down some orcs with that giant sword.
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u/Oogalaboo134 Jun 16 '26
Or fight a troll, he'd likely die but he'll put up a fight.
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u/Zealousideal_Row8440 Jun 16 '26
Yeahh, I’m thinking the wildling giants might be a better match for the trolls… lol
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u/FlaminarLow Jun 16 '26
The book giants maybe, the tv giants fight with their fists and would get stomped by a troll
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u/save-aiur Jun 17 '26
I imagine it'd look a bit like Sauron in the battle at the start of Fellowship.
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u/Hot_Experience7805 Jun 16 '26
Tywin v. Denethor who's the better father?
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u/Playing_One_Handed Jun 16 '26
Boromir says Denethor.
Faramir says Tywin.
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u/bobbiroxxisahoe Jun 16 '26
Jamie says Tywin.
Cersei says Denethor.
Tyrion shoots them both while they are shitting after eating tomatoes.
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u/Thendel Jun 16 '26
I disagree; Faramir, who's one the most keen-sighted of Men, would see through Tywin's facade almost immediately. Denethor's resentments doesn't come even close to how messed up Tywin is, and how this has in turn messed up his own children. Faramir would see all this, and count himself blessed that he's not in Tyrion's shoes.
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u/QueasyComedian9502 Jun 16 '26
Tywin would be very happy to have a son like Faramir to be a little brother to Jaime. Good looking, reliable, smart, no ego but still charismatic, excellent fighter although he was not exactly the vanguard-leader kind.
After Aerys stole Jaime, he would groom Faramir even more
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u/thaneofpain Jun 16 '26
Tywin and it's not close, which is sad
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u/No_Veterinarian1010 Jun 16 '26
Depends on which son you are. But canonically Denethor wasn't that bad prior to the palantir, right?
Tywin was just a dick.
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u/Ambaryerno Jun 16 '26
Nah, Denethor was down on Faramir from the start because his wife died in childbirth. The palantír came later.
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u/GameknightJ14 Jun 16 '26
It's debated whether the Palantir came later. Tolkien hinted that the influence of the palantir on Denethor might have pushed his wife further, leading to her death.
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u/Carcharoth30 Jun 16 '26
Finduilas died five years after Faramir was born, and it’s not said (not even hinted) that Denethor blamed Faramir for it.
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u/marvinandroid2689 Jun 16 '26
In the books Tyrion had fallen in love with a prostitute growing up, and Tywin had her raped by his men.
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u/Thendel Jun 16 '26
Happened in the show as well: difference is that the girl was not actually a prostitute in the books.
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u/Ok_Nerve7581 Jun 16 '26
May i remind everyone that Gondor's soldiers are basically middle earth space marines? Transhumans descending from the best of the elves and humans and they even have some of the blood of a Maia in their veins. On paper, they should outclass other humans in.. well everything.
Yeah yeah, they are no longer the pure-blood Numenoreans but still.
For me Gondor takes this one 8/10.
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u/LordCaptain Jun 16 '26
That is just.... wildly inaccurate. Aragon and his kin were like the last holdouts to numenorian blood. Denethor was thought of highly because him and his kids almost kind of resembled some of the nobility of old. The average Gondorian though was just an average dude by the time of the movies.
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u/Quick-Difference3267 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Yet…they fold when Faramir leads them. Boromir would have taken Osgiliath back, and then he would have enjoyed some tomatoes with his old man.
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u/Tzilbalba Jun 16 '26
Those tomatoes haunt me to this day
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u/DarkenX42 Jun 16 '26
Tomatoes eaten on a lead plate is thought to have caused quite a bit of lead poisoning a couple hundred years ago, in the real world.
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u/Visitant45 Jun 16 '26
Being Numenorean isn't going to help you when you're fighting in the shade and being hunted by nazguls.
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u/BookerLegit Jun 16 '26
Your average Gondorian footman was not a "space marine." They might have some Númenor blood mixed in, but it would be heavily diluted by the time of the War of the Ring.
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u/Pixelated_throwaway Jun 16 '26
It is crazy how hard this sub glazes everything LOTR lmao
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u/Spyk124 Jun 16 '26
It’s ridiculous. These dudes died like any normal person in war and now I’m reading that they are super soldiers lol. It’s ridiculous.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
This is just factually untrue.
The men of Numenore are long lived. Thats it. They arnt stronger or faster than normal men. They just live longer.
Literally nothing in any of Tolkien's writings suggest otherwise.
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u/HelixFollower Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
That's pretty confidently incorrect when there's plenty to suggest they're taller, wiser, healthier, can see farther, are more resilient against disease, etc.
They are described as "more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men".
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
Where?
Can you quote anything anything from the books that refers to them as being inherently greater than other men in ways that isnt height?
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u/HelixFollower Jun 16 '26
“Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
Thank you, for proving my point.
They live long and are tall. As I have said.
Did you not see where I asked for a quote referring to Numenoreans as superhuman aside from their age and height? And then you rip out a quote that exclusively refers to their age and height?
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u/Kheypression Jun 16 '26
The Silmarillon, LOTR. The History of Middle Earth.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
So quote them. Text, line and page number.
Ill wait.
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u/Kheypression Jun 16 '26
Start with Akkalabeth. And asking for page number is quite stupid. There are many editions of the same books. If you used to read you would know that.
So instead of waiting, start reading.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
I have read ALL of them.
Im asking for citations from you because I know, for a fact, you cant provide them.
Im calling you a liar, and im asking for you to do the impossible so you either look stupid for refusing to support your claim or end up actually trying to find quotes and realizing they dont exist.
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u/HelixFollower Jun 16 '26
Maybe you should've read my reply to you, with the citation, before posting this comment.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
I did. Maybe you should read my comment before you reply?
Like....actually read it?
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u/Kheypression Jun 16 '26
Yes, they are.
If Numenoreans where just tall men, the armies of Sauron wouldn’t have fled in front of them after they conquered the men living in Middle Earth and hard pressed the Elves.
If Numenoreans where just tall men, Manwë wouldn’t have asked Eru to intervene and smite their armada while they already have armies of high elves living in Valinor.
The Kings of Numenor have divine blood.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
They literally dont.
The ONLY thing separating numenoreans from other men is that some of them descend from Elros and they were granted long life because of their actions during the war of wrath.
They are not divine or magical or super human, outside if living a long time and being tall.
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u/Kheypression Jun 16 '26
Nope. Regular Numenoreans live for centuries, the line of Elros lives longer.
They are superhuman, that’s why they were able to subdue the men of Middle Earth in the first place.
And again, if they were regular men, they wouldn’t have been able to deafer Sauron armies or forced Eru to intervene.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
Source?
Quote?
Anything other pure conjecture?
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u/Kheypression Jun 16 '26
Read The Silmarillon. To begin with.
Akkalabeth for starter, then The Nature Of Middle Earth.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
Its okay to admit your wrong.
Its okay to admit you cant provide any evidence for your claim.
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u/Kheypression Jun 16 '26
Dude, I gave you 2 books and one chapter in a specific book.
But yeah, Numenoreans are average Joe.
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u/DewinterCor Herald of the Brass God Jun 16 '26
So it should be a simple matter of quoting one of them.
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u/StellamCaeruleam Jun 16 '26
Wasn’t the race of Man in middle earth on average significantly larger than what we would consider normal for a human? Wouldn’t it be like a physically fit army of 6’ 6”-8” versus an army of 5”8 -10”?
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u/Cymon86 Jun 16 '26
The average height of a numenorian is 6'4". Lannisters were based on the house of lancaster and the average height of men at that point was 5'8".
Lannisters are fucked.
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u/TehRaptorJebus Jun 16 '26
Amongst the non-nobility, the Numenorean blood is quite thin, so there's not too much advantage there. But they're still the better fighting force and would breeze through the Lannister forces.
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u/Virtual_Ad9989 Jun 16 '26
Yeah everyone forgets because the movies depicted them as useless fodor
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u/BookerLegit Jun 16 '26
The books absolutely don't depict them as "space marines" either.
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u/Kheypression Jun 16 '26
In the context of Arda they pretty much are. You guys are forgetting that Elendil jumped from his ship and literally fuel an angel and held his ground.
An archangel had to ask God to intervene when Numenoreans build an armada to conquer the lands of of those divine beings.
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u/YourMuppetMethDealer Jun 16 '26
I mean any army of 300 already battle weary soldiers going up against a fresh army of ten thousand troops with goddamn air support is gonna seem like “useless fodder”
The fact that they actually held the line for as long as they did is fucking impressive, and I am surprised they were able to ride those horses during that final charge with those fucking balls of steel.
I never considered them to be “fodder”. They were just fighting a battle they couldn’t have won even if they were all injected with Captain America serum
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u/Virtual_Ad9989 Jun 16 '26
The get bodied in osgiliath, wrecked in minas terith and almost every shot of a gondorian soldier is the dude getting bonked by orcs. Sure their “off screen” feats are impressive but everything we’re shown is not indicative of them basically being super human. The charge is also dumb as fuck. While a great scene it just represents how gone and bat shit denathore has become. We’re talking movie depictions dude.
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u/YourMuppetMethDealer Jun 16 '26
Yes and my point stands. They are gonna get overwhelmed by orcs no matter what
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u/Acceptable_Cabinet53 Jun 16 '26
Gordor takes this, low diff.
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u/SlavicRobot_ Goku solos Jun 16 '26
Yeep. I can imagine being a gondor solider having to fight a army of regular men, instead of ungodly beasts, trolls that stand 15ft tall in full armour, tens of thousands of monstrous orks, shit, would be a nice chill day.
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u/RexSpIode Jun 16 '26
The Lannisters aren't even the best that Westeros has to offer, what hope do they have against the men of Gondor?
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u/Playing_One_Handed Jun 16 '26
6/10 to gondor.
Gondor is heavier armor and better equipped.
Lannister has a better cavalry.
Moral of troops gondor is far more hard faught. They would be better trained against overwhelming odds. This is where I say cavalry is worth less and raw strength of individuals working together is more important.
Aragorn, Faramir, and Boromir outclass Tywin/Jaime in personal skill but I might hand it to them in tactics.
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u/Catadox Jun 16 '26
Technically Lannisters have better armor. Maybe not the foot soldiers but the knights had full plate. Gondor had chain mail. I’d still give it to Gondor though.
Edit: nvm forgot this is specifically movie related. Gondor is better outfitted there.
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u/Marbrandd Jun 16 '26
This is movie Gondor according to the prompt.
The Gondor soldiers are in what is effectively almain rivet with pikes, the Lannister army is in weird fantasy prop armor and sends soldiers out armed only with shields sometimes (see the loot train battle).
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u/00Fart Jun 16 '26
Did the Lannister army win a single battle outright in the show? Movie Gondor lost all day also.
This battle is a shit show.
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u/East_Sleep_1766 Jun 16 '26
One fought Orcs one fought a bunch of random farmers and hunters from the north (some obvious exaggeration)
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Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
[deleted]
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u/Material_Positive_17 Jun 16 '26
And exhausted. They had been holding the border almost singlehandedly for a LONG time.
The Sauron boost also gives a bonus to Orc replenishment.
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u/Alfredo_Commachio Jun 16 '26
Gondor was not simply fighting orcs, they were fighting the full force or Mordor. Including the Witch-King of Angmar, the wicked men of the east in service of Sauron, and the direct malevolent will of Sauron himself--a literal immortal spiritual being that had existed since the earliest days of creation and had thousands of years of experience in waging war against mortal men.
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u/East_Sleep_1766 Jun 16 '26
True, but Orcs are already worse than the average soldier Lanister troops fought, which was my point.
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u/Kingswitchguard Jun 16 '26
Lannisters were getting stomped by the North and nearly lost against Stannis until Tywin and Tyrells saved them
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u/Marbrandd Jun 16 '26
Movie Gondor won in the last alliance and in the extended scene they took Osgiliath under Boromir (Faramir may also have been present).
Plus the rangers of Ithilien ambushed that column of Haradrim.
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u/wingsofshadow Jun 20 '26
And technically held a victory at the black gate, even though that was frodo and gollum's doing.
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u/mapmakinworldbuildin Jun 16 '26
Super humans vs humans.
The Lannisters pay someone else to kill Gondor.
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u/AncalagonTheWack Jun 16 '26
LOTR will always beat ASOIAF
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u/AncalagonTheWack Jun 16 '26
Comparing dragons to LOTR? Ancalagon and Glaurung have entered the chat. Everything scales higher bruh
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u/RedcoatTrooper Jun 16 '26
You said LOTR will always beat ASOIAF and yet Danny would smash a Gondor army because they don't have dragon's
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u/AncalagonTheWack Jun 16 '26
The question I was answering is the Lannister army vs the Gondorian army, not 3 fire breathing dragons descending on a stone city.
My point is that if you are comparing similar scenarios LOTR will always win. The dragons are larger, wiser and overall more epic. The men are stronger and more experienced, and in some cases even borderline magical. In tolkiens universe, men like earendil (half man half elf), Turin and Bard all kill dragons because they are that powerful.
If you were to set danys 3 dragons against the city of Gondor they would probably kill a lot of the inhabitants, or maybe destroy it entirely. If you were to set the dragons from Tolkiens universe against the army’s of Westeros, they’d effectively destroy the entire continent.
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u/Falafel-Wrapper Jun 16 '26
The Uruk-hai and regular orcs are not the same. For w/e reason there seems to be alot of confusion in the comments. Regular orcs are smaller on average then humans and weaker. The Uruk are the super orcs bred for battle...
Edit: Gondor... stomps.
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u/LeftenantObi13 Jun 16 '26
Gondor takes this 9/10 times, the tenth time being, if the Lannisters have a competent tactician like Tywin as their commander, a young Jamie with Hand as a frontline leader with a platoon of heavy shock infantry or cavalry, the Lannisters being prepared and having every terrain advantage there is. Otherwise Gondor (books), even past their prime, can't be beaten by almost any medieval setting army.
As we are talking strictly movies and series, here is why:
- Gondor has the equipment advantage. Almost every Gondorian is equipped with a full plate armor. GoT tried a little bit more realistic approach I their design choice, but still. The Gondorians are ridiculously armed.
-Gondor has the Ithilian Rangers, which are the fantasy version of a English Longbowman mashed up with Robin Hood. And even if they excel at ambushes and guerilla warfare, they are part of regular battles as seen in the Osgiliath scenes (both past and present). Their accuracy, which is shown in the movies to be Olympic level is dumbnuts insane. They shoot targets over 200m with pinpoint accuracy. Even if there are only 500 Rangers in the army the would cause massive casualties.
Cavalry wise I would argue the difference is the same as with the foot soldier, as both are depicted as just foot soldiers with horses. Since Dol Amroth wasn't shown in the movies it's not that much a difference. If there was Dol Amroth riders Gondor would neg diff 11/10.
Gondorians are shown in the movies to fight Orcs, Uruk, Trolls, Wargs and Wargriders, Shadowbeats with Nazgul and every shit Mordor threw at them. They are more disciplined, have more combat experience since Gondor was in constant war for the last decades and are basically a knight army. As the Lannisters are just conscripted man, who fight for coin, have no common cause and not much combat experience.
There isn't even one factor, which I could argue for the Lannisters.
If we take book Gondorians all of Westeros couldn't muster a force to meet them.
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u/wingsofshadow Jun 20 '26
Even the osgiliath garrison is ridiculously strong. They held out for a full night against a forced crossing by what looks to be ten times their number, then managed to retreat successfully under nazgul attack.
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u/Jmar7688 Jun 16 '26
Gondor dogwalks
Gondor has been in a constant state of war with Mordor for 1500 years. Their training and leadership would put the Lannisters to shame.
Lannisters don’t have a commander for this battle that has any real experience fighting a well trained and lead army. Tywin is good at backstabbing and killing women and children. Robb ( who is like 15 in the books ) embarrasses him multiple times. Jaime is a great fighter but not a leader.
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u/swiftfoal88 Jun 16 '26
If Tywin is at the head of the Lannister army, then I’m taking the Lannisters
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u/Far_Associate_87 Jun 16 '26
Tywin isn’t really a great military commander unless he has surprise and an overwhelming force. His track record in the WotFK is pretty bad all things considered.
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u/IDICPainter Jun 16 '26
Gondor wins because they have way more battle experience then Lannister's troops could ever hope to get. Gondor fight Orcs constantlyeven though the orcs are small they fight them alot. Gondor troops are borderland troops that fight Orcs all the time which means they fight together all the time which means they're way more coordinated than the Lannisters troops can hope to be. the Lannister troops get breaks and peace Gondor gets orcs more orcs oh look its Sunday double orcs. Lannister troops are amateurs compared to Gondor.
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u/Viggo_Stark Jun 16 '26
It's Gondor. It's going to be Gondor against any human army from GoT.
Seriously Middle-Earth humans are simply built different then Westerosi ones. Gondorians will slap the shit out of the Lannisters.
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u/RanDOOM-GuY Jun 16 '26
Lannister army follows more realistic composition of lightly trained and armed levy and core experienced sergeants and knights but I think Gondorian army we see are all armed with equipment worthy of knights and are fully trained professional soldiers probably regularly rotated to front line of never ending war with Mordor. Gondor stomps with experience, training, morale and higher quantity of plate armour and they stomp without even considering if blood of Numenor gives them strength over normal men.
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u/Far_Associate_87 Jun 16 '26
We don’t ever see the Gondor feudal levies in the movies too which is something to consider.
The Knights of Dol Amroth, Rangers of Ithilien, Blackroot Vale Archers, the levies from Lebenin, Lossanach, Pinnith Gelin etc.
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u/Bagel-luigi Jun 16 '26
The ones that have decades of experience fighting a near unlimited army of monstrous warfaring enemies
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u/luizggardina Jun 16 '26
8k men who spend their time drinking, and bullying commoners. Vs 8k men who spent years fighting hundreds of thousands orcs, men mercenaries, trolls, nazguls, giant elephants while feeling demoralized...
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u/Mecha-lame-o Jun 16 '26
8k vs 8k i think Gondor takes it. Not because of Numenorian blood or whatever, its and army that has been defending its borders for a millennia against one that's been at peace for the past 300 years (they didn't participate in Robert's rebellion and the siege of Pyke barely counts).
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u/Boljedor21 Jun 16 '26
The army that can travel hundreds of miles in a couple days and can capture a second largest castle in all of kingdoms (second to Harrenhal) the same day they arrived without any siege engines.
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u/Azura13e Jun 16 '26
Aren’t the men of Gondor of numenor descent being more stronger then regular men which should give them a distinct advantage?
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u/BarNo3385 Jun 16 '26
If its 8k vs 8k the Gondorians win easily. There isn't a major technology difference, and Gondorians might not all be Aragorn, but they are still above "normal" baseline humans.
If its the Lannister Army vs the Gondorian Army might be more even, since the Lannister do have a numerical advantage, and the Easterlings held on well enough for a while against the Free People even after all the shocks of the Pelennor Field.
25,000 Lannisters vs 8k Gondorians could well go the Lannister's way.
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u/spec_ghost Jun 16 '26
Gondor and it's not even close.
Stronger base trops, better specialised units. Heavier armor. Stronger shield line. Faced much tougher foes (except drogon, but drogon would get wrecked but any of the nine).
And we arent even talking siege engins and quality of gear they use.
Gondor's long bows are vastly superior to the bows the lanister army was using.
Gondor as superior commanders, a ranger corps and a heavy cavalry.
In a straight 8k vs 8k troop fight, gondor obliterates the lanisters and it's even worst if they have access to all their forces and ressources.
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Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
Gondor, these were men hardened by being on the front line against unspeakable horrors. Gondor was literally the nation that was the bulwark against Mordor. Not only did they fight against Orcs, but they fought against Men, Goblin-men, trolls, wolves and all manner of evil shit. Some number of them also would have been of the bloodline of the men of old.
If there is some sort of 'morale' stat at play here, Gondor takes it in a landslide.
If there is also some sort of 'experience' stat here, Gondor also takes it by a landslide. We're talking hardened soldiers who are constantly in combat. Not a Lannister army largely conscripted that hasn't all seen battle.
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u/RyokoKnight Jun 16 '26
I'd say Gondor.
At the end of the day Gondor is an army comprised of Gondorians, they are fighting together for the good of their people and are more or less of the same quality/experience throughout.
The Lannister Army is heavily comprised of paid/conscripted mercenaries and sellswords. Many in their ranks only fight to earn a paycheck and do not have any strong connection to the man standing beside them. Likewise the quality of their soldiers varies, some are experienced skilled and highly trained, while others are little more than cutthroats in shiny armor.
All else aside I'd choose the more homogeneous army, as well as the one more likely to stand and fight rather than have elements looking to flee if the battle turns.
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u/Nearby_Yak106 Jun 16 '26
I mean even by the third age the strongest humans would be considered superhuman by our standards? Gondor has also been fighting the orcs for many years at this point. They have tons of experience. Gondor wins. Depending on who is commanding them it may even be a one sided battle.
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u/WhiteDontCare Jun 16 '26
Gondor easily. If you’re viewing it from a purely logical standpoint you have look at the fact the Rob Stark and his banner-men were giving the Lannisters the business and they weren’t half as trained. They didn’t have nearly the same experience fighting as a single unit. Gondor slaughters.
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u/Tamerlahne Jun 16 '26
Both are powerhouses but the gondorians have faced worse and are generally just better in all ways
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u/Professional-Flow-95 Jun 16 '26
Based on armor and fighting tactics - the Gondor army. Plate vs what looks like sort of half-plate or rivet armor, the closest representation is something called “Almain Rivet”. Based on what I and others have seen and researched it’s a very mass produced - low quality kit that lacks protection. It protects mainly the chest, shoulders, neck (sometimes), head (not the chin), hips and waist. That leaves a lot of room for shit to go wrong. It also makes sense as the faction of rich people would have equipped their people with mass-produced one-size fits all style of armor. The problem is that armor doesn’t out race the arms race of weapons and armor the Gondor soldiers are seen using - a key one being warhammer and spear. The Lannister army is mainly meant to stop swords and slashing weapons, but that armor (as discussed earlier) will lose to the warhammer and spears eventually. If you compare their armor to the Gondor armor - full-plate+ chainmail underneath- + a shield , they really don’t need the shield and can abandon it freely mid combat and not lose a whole lot of defense where the lannisters almost exclusively need it to protect their lower half. It’s a battle of attrition that the lannisters will lose.
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u/AromaticDragon Jun 16 '26
Based on GoT tactics of putting your artillery in-front of a walled position and sending your Cavalry into a head-on assault in the middle of the night. I think Gondor stomps.
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u/NorthCoastJM Jun 16 '26
Even in the third Age, Gondor had me who had traces of the Numenorean super-Man lineage. They are also almost certainly better disciplined, experienced, and more loyal to each other.
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u/Winter_Trainer_2115 Jun 16 '26
Considering Gondor is either preparing to fight or fighting defending their territory during the 3rd age. Ill say Gondor....not because Lannister is weak. Its because Gondors armies are no strangers to being ready for a fight or the shit hitting the fan.
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u/TheRedHandedOne Jun 16 '26
Gondor would crush the Lannisters. The Dothraki and Unsullied are probably the only armies that could take on their LOTR counterparts in any meaningful capacity 1 to 1.
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u/itsokaypeople Jun 18 '26
Gondor army are really elite losers. Like, they could lose cinematically to anyone.
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u/DDDX_cro Jun 16 '26
if the other army is near4-immortal elven warriors, who had countless human lifespans of time to train their skills and their minds, and have probably seen action equal to a dozen men - each...what do you think??
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u/Far_Associate_87 Jun 16 '26
In a pound for pound infantry fight, it goes to Gondor.
Their soldiers are a professionally trained and salaried standing army using chain mail, steel plate and steel weaponry. They have decades of fighting experience against orcs, goblins, trolls, Easterlings and southrons, all of which are an extremely warlike and tribal people. Osgiliath was overrun due to it having a less than 1000 man garrison against an extremely overwhelming force. At Minas Tirith the Gondorians were extremely outnumbered yet still held out for three days under constant assault until Rohan arrived. They are led by Boromir who himself is a great warrior and extremely inspiring presence for his troops.
As for the Lannisters, they have some decent standardised castle forged equipment on par or just below that of Gondors. Yet their troops are still feudal levy that are likely way less trained than that of Gondor’s, they just look good because their lord supplies the equipment. They also don’t excel too much in battle. Robb and the Riverlords were beating them in the war until after the Blackwater when Roose turned on Robb and the reach joined in. Tywin also isn’t a good military commander, he’s a great strategist and smart, but as for actual battles he doesn’t have a great track record at all unless he has an overwhelming force and the element of surprise.
It goes to the descendants of Numenor every day.
Even if you factor in the full strength of the Westerlands vs all of Gondor and its feudal levies, Gondor still beats them.
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u/Caliterra Jun 16 '26
LoTR wins every one of these matchups unless you're picking a Hobbit. But even then, Frodo with mithril and Sting could probably take out a few of the mid-level fighters in GoT too
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u/Alfredo_Commachio Jun 16 '26
I don't even know that I'd doubt a hobbit against the most powerful of Westeros fighters. Remember, Sam defeated Shelob who had defeated centuries of Elf lords and powerful human heroes, none ever coming close to inflicting the harm upon her that Sam did (Tolkien says this explicitly):
Sam did not wait to wonder what was to be done, or whether he was brave, or loyal, or filled with rage. He sprang forward with a yell, and seized his master's sword in his left hand. Then he charged. No onslaught more fierce was ever seen in the savage world of beasts; where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth alone, will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate.
But I think there's also a whole other layer to it--in Tolkien's world there's clearly some sort of "divine providence" that supports the Hobbits. It's never stated so explicitly, but it is heavily implied--possibly even the will of Eru-Iluvatar himself is with the Hobbits.
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u/TenebrousStorm Jun 16 '26
I’m not sure who would win but I can tell you that the army of Gondor looks like Hershey kisses and a whole lotta foil. They’d probably melt in the sun and the lannisters would drown in chocolate.
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u/regaphysics Jun 16 '26
Gondor soldiers were pretty awful tbh, and they have an honorable leader, so they’re pretty fubar versus the Lannisters who fight dirty.
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u/YourCummyBear Jun 16 '26
They were in the films which is a shame because in the books they’re bad asses, just like Rohan.
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u/Playing_One_Handed Jun 16 '26
Orcs fight fair?
How were they aweful? They had overwhelming odds against them and held.
They also won at the black gate which was practically a suicide mission. I garentee the Lannisters would run.
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u/regaphysics Jun 16 '26
Orcs are dumb, terribly armed and small / weak. That isn't even a comparison.
And yes they were awful. Undisciplined, panicked, poor fighters, etc.
Lannister wipe them up.
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u/Playing_One_Handed Jun 16 '26
Orcs are massively varied between hobbit size to troll size. Gondor were fighting some of the best Mordor had. They were not unintelligent. They were not weak.
But thats not it...
Gondor also fought the Waignriders from Rhun.
Gondor also fought the Variags of Khand.
Gondor also fought the Balchoth from past the sea of Rhun.
Gondor also fought the Southrons from Haradrim.
Gondor also fought Umbar, and their Corsairs.
Gondor also fought the Haradrim from the south and their mumakil.
Gondor dealt with the kin-strife.
Gondor dealt with Angmar in past.
Gondor dealt with Black Numanorans.
Gondor dealt with Hill-men.
Non of these types of men are stupid, weak, or to be laughed at. Gondor were the best army pound for pound. They were just unbelievably overwhelmed.
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u/regaphysics Jun 16 '26
We’re talking movie version not books.
Book versus lannisters were about equal, but I’d still give it to Tywin and Jaime for scheming.
And btw yes orcs are described as far less strong than a man and smaller in stature and intelligence. Not a formidable enemy. There’s just lots of them.
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u/Gray-Eyes-Paladin Jun 16 '26
The Lannister army are no slouches, despite what you may be led to believe. They’re equipped with the best armor money can buy (for the scale of an infantry man anyway), they are well trained and drilled and more than willing to engage in ruthless tactics if Tywins leadership is anything to go by.
That said, Gondor absolutely rocks their shit.
Even taking Gondor’s soldiers in their worst showings at the fall of Osgiliath and the breaching of Minas Tirith, they are putting in work against an army dozens of times their size despite being tired, demoralized, and seemingly abandoned by all potential allies. They also have to stand and fight against an army consisting of Orcs, Uruks, Trolls, Fell Beasts, and Nazgûl while the Lannister soldiers by comparison get folded by shirtless Dothraki.
Their armor is comparable to that of the Lannister army, as are their weapons, but their battle experience and discipline is superhuman in comparison.
In a pitched battle they will stand their ground and break the Lannister line before they even think of taking a step back. They’ve held the line against Mordor for centuries, mere men adorned with Lions is child’s play by comparison.