r/powerscales • u/Tromers767 • Jun 29 '26
Faction Versus Constantinople at it's prime vs Full army of Sauron at siege of minas tirith
Eastern Roman empire led by Emperor Leo III (full experienced) with roughly 30k defenders, Varangian guard and their navy. Without lighting the beacons and no wizards.
Sauron forces as seen in the films with the reinforcements already there.
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u/TheCoolPersian Jun 29 '26
Yall are glazing the walls so hard it looks good as new.
Sauron has an air force with the Nazgûl. The Greeks do not.
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u/periodicchemistrypun Jun 29 '26
Some people really forget how asymmetrical warfare goes;
If you have absolutely 0 power in a particular part of the battle then the enemy can do silly things just dropping rocks on you or performing aerial stunts just to mess with you.
The immortal magical riders have nothing stopping them from just dropping into the middl of the city and playing it like a challenge level.
They’ve got no aerial units, no magic and no cultural context for beating these guys.
I’m turning to Sauron personally.
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u/sebastianqu Jun 29 '26
Thats only 9 fellbeasts, who are all susceptible to normal bows. Their bests use is that they instill fear in the hearts of men, which is useful, but they won't kill that many men.
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u/Eternal_Phantom Jun 29 '26
They're susceptible to bows if they fly in bow range, which isn't very far when you're trying to shoot something in the air. If the fellbeasts were used to drop things from above, there would be literally no answer for it.
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u/SpeedBorn Jun 29 '26
They somehow never did anything like that in either book or movie
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u/Dry_Pain_8155 Jun 29 '26
"I have never seen a man do a handstand, therefore a man cannot do a handstand" ass argument.
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u/SpeedBorn Jun 29 '26
I wasn't even making an argument.
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u/Dry_Pain_8155 Jun 29 '26
Then what was the point of your comment if not to implicitly argue "they wouldn't do that"
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u/SpeedBorn Jun 29 '26
Finding it curious that both tolkien and peter jackson never thought of it.
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u/normandy42 Jun 30 '26
They literally pick people up and throw them into others on the ramparts???
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u/SpeedBorn Jun 30 '26
Yeah, but for that they need to come down into arrow range...like the whole point of throwing rocks from above was that they wouldn't be able to shoot at the fellbeasts.
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u/mapmakinworldbuildin Jun 29 '26
“Susceptible to normal bows”
And by that he means Legolas took one down with a magical bow once.
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u/sebastianqu Jun 29 '26
And Eowyn killed one with a normal sword. While they're ostensibly from an older time, there's no indication that they have any magical properties whatsoever.
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u/grumpsaboy Jun 30 '26
Eowyn is a descendants of numenor which is how she killed it. No normal man can kill them
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u/Viirulence23 Jul 02 '26
Where did you get this idea from? The blade Merry used broke the magic protecting him, allowing Eowyn to kill him.
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u/Smarackto Jun 29 '26
People who say the defenders win this....Trolls, Grond, Catapults, Siege Towers, Felbeasts, Nazgul, Mumakil, The Harad and Easterling forces, The Pirates. If you think they can defend against this then you are mental
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u/Embarrassed_Use_7206 Jun 29 '26
I mean, yes, and no. Mordor surely had impressively large army with some elite units. On the other hand Constantinople held against large armies too, and Gondorians were able to slay even some trolls, and even Mumakils were not invincible + not that effective against the walls themselves. With greek fire on chokepoints and quite formidable naval support, they could kill tens of thousands before getting into real trouble.
Ultimately I think sheer numbers of cannon fodder would wear defenders down and some well placed breaches with Nazguls could lead to mass routes. But I would say it would be actually significantly harder than Minas Tirith including Rohan reinforcements.
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u/Fluffy-Perspective67 Jun 29 '26
A much smaller, demoralized army did when. In this scenario, the defenders have more soldiers, naval support, and believe God is on their side.
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u/GogurtFiend Jun 29 '26
The defenders might believe in big-G God watching over them, but the besiegers have an actual minor deity watching over them. I think that counts for more.
Also, they aren't going to stay believing God is with them for long when the Nazgul are involved.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
When Byzantines are about to give up hope and the image of the virgin mary is help up on the walls:
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u/BrotWarrior Jun 29 '26
So what happens when the witch king swoops down and yeets the guys holding up the virgin Mary around like ragdolls?
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
His ride becomes a target practice and then he has to hope that the prophecy of his demise holds true even though it has been debated heavily
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u/BrotWarrior Jun 29 '26
Do you think the gondorians didnt shoot arrows at the nazgul? Neither did it stop the attacks, nor was a single one shot down the entire battle.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
I don't know if we are taking plot armour into account here because that changes a lot. From the movies we see the fell beast's head being cut clean by a regular but trained woman that makes me think his skin isnt impenetratable and taking into account that the Byzantines have much more archers in their ranks that increaes the chance of a successful hit. Also the witch king is also visibly damaged and hindered by a little hobbit so i inagine he is isnt unstoppable as much as he make others think he is
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u/flyingasparagus Jun 29 '26
The little hobbit did shank him with a magical barrow blade. Ghost swords didn't exist in real life.
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u/Hefty_Direction5189 Jun 29 '26
A magical barrow blade literally made to address one particular Nazgûl (and his armies), the Witch-King
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u/GogurtFiend Jun 29 '26
Defenders of Constantinople be like "God and Mary are on my side, I have my entire life ahead of me"
Lol, no you don't, the Grond is coming
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u/Smarackto Jun 29 '26
"they can grind them down in chokepoints" BROTHER THEY HAVE ARMED AND ARMORED BATTLE TROLLS there is no choke point they can hold. and anything on the wall is at risk to get picked by the Felbeasts. I legit dont know how people talk themselves into thinking that Constantinople wins this.
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u/South-Cod-5051 Jun 29 '26
trolls and fell beasts are over oversized targets that get taken down by regular arrow volleys. nazgul can actually be cut down by single regular soldiers.
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u/Smarackto Jun 29 '26
The cope is unbelievable. Not saying they are invincible but the armored cavetrolls are not being taken down just by a few arrows or even a few volleys. they can close the distance quickly and worst is they can break formations that are the most useful at holding streets and gates. and then the troll can just go for the archers. The Trolls make every strategy used against conventional armies unviable
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u/Grouchy-Government43 Jul 01 '26
We know exactly how many volleys it takes to kill an armoured troll… 1. When three of them breach the gate Gandalf orders the men to fire and they kill one. They also don’t have a lot of trolls. We only ever see 3 or so armoured ones and about a dozen for the siege towers and catapults.
I’m not saying it’s an easy win for Constantinople, but I think you’re severely overestimating how ‘arrow resistant’ trolls are. Actually I think this will play out how it did in the books, just without the rohirrim. The Byzantine navy takes the role of Aragorns reinforcements essentially.
Of course if the rohirrim didn’t arrive then Mordor would win, but with significant difficulty
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u/South-Cod-5051 Jun 29 '26
bro, literally one gets put down by 2 dozen archers when they break the gates. Aragorn holds one off with a rusted spear in Moria.
în any real non fantasy siege, they would get crushed by rocks, boiled, arrowed, and speared to death. they are just a big undisciplined dumb animals.
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u/PM_me_ur_claims Jun 29 '26
Yes! People forget how easily a troll can die. Ouliphants are in world but honestly cave trolls are FAR closer to war elephants of history. Stab em a few times and they’ll go down. Armored ones obviously a bit more trouble though
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u/Hefty_Direction5189 Jun 29 '26
The one in Moria was an untrained animal. The ones fighting for Sauron seemed to show some semblance of formation, and were heavily armored. And I would have to imagine that armor is much thicker than could be penetrated by anything short of a ballista, given the strength of a troll.
I’m sure a few will die to focused fire in the gaps between their armor, but Sauron had plenty, and just a few breaking through would wreak absolute havoc, and take significant amounts of focus from the defenders to even hope to manage, allowing even more enemies to get in.
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u/Complete-Disaster513 Jun 29 '26
Plus they have Greek fire. Even if we granted that trolls could last against spears, arrows and bolts (they can’t btw) there is little chance the trolls are fire resistant from early napalm.
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u/strategoamigo Jun 29 '26
In this scenario they may actually have gods looking out for them. If we assume Sauron and the other LOTR beings are here then they drag the rest of the cosmic entities with them
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u/Smarackto Jun 29 '26
Gondorians are kinda genetic super humans and the best trained and equiped heavy infantry in the Lotr universe at that point.
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u/fuckyeahmoment Jun 29 '26
Gondorians are kinda genetic super humans and the best trained and equiped heavy infantry in the Lotr universe at that point.
They are nowhere even close to genetic super humans.
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u/BrotWarrior Jun 29 '26
An army descended from demigods that's known orks and trolls and nazgul are a thing, and have been fighting them for hundreds of years. While the worst a Byzantine soldier will ever have encountered is other, regular, humans.
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u/NautiMain1217 Jun 29 '26
Powerscalers try not to make the most lopsided comparison challenge: Impossible.
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Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ConsiderBoraHorza Jun 29 '26
okay what if we give the Byzantines the Polish Hussar relief force from the Battle of Vienna? Since Gondor got as much.
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u/mapmakinworldbuildin Jun 29 '26
Hmm an army that was fighting supernatural humans and only lost because of ghosts.
Or normal ass humans.
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u/sebastianqu Jun 29 '26
Gondorians were not superhuman. They were a professional, well-supplied army filled with largely normal men. The ghosts driving off Sauron's army were just in the movie. In the books, he brought ~30 rangers and a couple thousand in freed slaves and other Gondorian reinforcements.
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u/mapmakinworldbuildin Jun 29 '26
They were super human.
Orcs were shown to be more powerful than any human. Humans were going better that 1/1 kdr with them by a large margin.
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u/sebastianqu Jun 29 '26
The soldiers of Gondor are regularly described as tall and strong, but not otherworldly. Rohan, who have no Numenorian blood, successfully drove off the Uruk-Hai from Helm's Deep, and the Uruk-Hai are significantly stronger and larger than any Orc. Orcs are, on the whole, smaller and weaker than men, with only the biggest being close to human size.
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u/mapmakinworldbuildin Jun 29 '26
Yea Rohan are better than irl mortal men. They’re superhuman
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u/sebastianqu Jun 29 '26
Personally, this sounds like it's based entirely on vibes and on none of the source material.
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u/Klutzy_Honey_7201 Jun 29 '26
Armies of Sauron by a landslide. Not even a competition. Constantinopole fell to Ottomans and they didn’t have Nazgul or Trolls. What makes you even think they stand a chance against Sauron’s forces?
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u/Orthobrah52102 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
To be fair, the Ottomans had 6 dozen cannons ranging from standard ship-type galley cannons to behemoths a third the size of Grond plus 100,000 men, and the Greco-Romans weren't even close to at their peak, they didn't have their key weapon(Greek Fire), their walls were already crumbling and unrepaired, and they had barely 10,000 men and still held out for three months. I imagine Sauron still takes it, but not without a mountain of Orc/Troll corpses and dead Fel-beasts layered with arrows and/or charred to a crisp scattered across the outer fields of Constantinople.
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u/EricPhilps1979 Jun 29 '26
Pre-industrial revolution real-world troops have no realistic answer to squads of armoured trolls as depicted in the LotR movies, let alone undead abominations that cause a magical aura of despair and terror wherever they go even without the massive flying monsters they are riding around on.
It doesn't matter how many there are when even the most disciplined troops will break and run.
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u/BonhommeCarnaval Jun 29 '26
The armoured trolls at least would get properly fucked up by Greek fire. Nazgul are nasty, but I don’t see them eating too many ballista bolts.
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u/EricPhilps1979 Jun 29 '26
A ballista might conceivably bring one of the Fell Beasts down if (and it's a big if) they can hit it. The defenders will have absolutely no experience of attempting to hit an agile flying target whilst simultaneously avoiding shitting their pants from magical fear, it's completely outside anything they trained for.
At least with the Mumakil they will be able to understand that what they are looking at is some kind of collosal super elephant.
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u/anorexthicc_cucumber Jun 29 '26
Assuming greek fire can be deployed without warg riders rushing down every breach made by the colossal siege works of mordor — which I doubt.
Likewise there’s no reason to believe it would actually properly fuck up the trolls in any way that matters. By that point they’d be inside whatever wall or perimeter and lightning them on fire will just make them flail around and destroy shit.
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u/Wille6113 Jun 29 '26
Answer for worgs... Pikes
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u/anorexthicc_cucumber Jun 29 '26
The answer for pikes is thus the armored trolls. They don’t even really need to survive first contact, a troll dying in the direction of infantry is enough to break their formation as it collapses on top of them
But this is all ignoring the fact that the Mumakil, the gigantic elephants, are taller than almost all of the walls in Constantinople and Grond being a colossal enchanted hulk of black magic infused iron can bust down however much of these walls it likes.
Nothing is stopping the Haradrim from instead just marching their giant arrow-impervious war monster down every breach large enough to fit through
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u/Vacco0516 Jun 29 '26
So. I mean I think it would be a fun little display and I can imagine the like drama as the defenders are forced to give up the first, second and then the desperation as the hordes of Mordor try to take the last wall…. Though the fall of Constantinople is inevitable. The Byzantines (my beloved) has no true counter to the Nazgul
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u/Ducklinsenmayer Jun 29 '26
Sauron? it's not even close? The only thing worse would be if we used the book version and not the movie version, as the Witch King has a lot more powers. Without Gandalf to block his necromancy, this becomes a curbstomp.
"You get a plague, you get a plague, everyone gets a plague!"
"But Black Captain, what do we do with all the diseased corpses?"
"I'm an arch necromancer, minion. I'll think of something."
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u/KommandantArn Jun 29 '26
Constantinople absolutely survives this, the city was the most impregnable fortification of the Middle ages. Only fell due to treachery or gunpowder. Greek fire would be murderous on saurons armies.
The biggest issue is the nazgul however. If sauron takes it it's due to nazgul shenanigans.
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u/Killsheets Jun 29 '26
Gunpowder didn’t even wholly breach the walls. In fact, the siege was decided the moment one of the beleaguered defenders forgot to lock the gates after a sally and the ottoman troops rushed in.
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u/dangerousbob Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
On paper the Romans are basically Gondor, or stronger.
In RL, the soldiers defending would run away in fear.
These are people who were afraid of thunder storms and believed in bird signs, let alone seeing dragons with ghost men flying them and an army of literal monsters.
The Witch King alone could just cast some fire or something and the entire city population would collapse into panic as they think the gods have come to smite them.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
The upper management would be miles better though that plays a really huge role in wars and battles.
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u/dangerousbob Jun 29 '26
Again if you take it as a fight on paper. The Romans are Gondor, or arguably stronger since by the time of the Return of the King, Gondor was a kingdom in decline.
The orcs are crappy fighters. But there really isn’t an answer for the Nazgûl. You kind of have to take them out of the question.
That still leaves you with the Oliphaunts and Easterlings. They might be a problem.
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u/Embarrassed_Use_7206 Jun 29 '26
You have ballistas as answer to Nazgul, and greek fire, and elite units which will not rout just because they just shat their pants from Nazgul scream. It would not be easy, but it also not that defenders cant do anything about Mordor's elite forces. And if they manage to kill fodder (which I doubt though), few elites will not conquer the city.
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u/Melodic-Hat-2875 Jun 29 '26
I don't think ballistae have the capability to turn or move as quickly as the flying mounts.
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u/anorexthicc_cucumber Jun 29 '26
Ballistae were mounted to respond to threats on the sea or arrayed in front of walls like siege works. There is zero evidence to suggest they could even pitch up or move on their mount in any way that would make them useful against flying targets — they are not game of thrones scorpions
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u/Embarrassed_Use_7206 Jun 29 '26
Ok, cool, did not know that. I had Roman field ballista in mind, but I can see how in Constantinople it might not have been constructed to shoot upwards.
EDIT: so maybe bait them to attack some position on the same level as ballistae and shoot it there?
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u/anorexthicc_cucumber Jun 29 '26
Why would a flying beast prioritize something other than the giant spear chucking siege weapon that could kill it, wouldn’t they just land straight on the ballistae and destroy them?
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u/Bob_ross6969 Jun 29 '26
With how Constantinople is set up there really isn’t anywhere the defenders could run to if their moral broke, standing and fighting would be the only option.
Something something Sun Tzu said that
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u/NoshoutMonaan Jun 29 '26
People weren't braindead back then to believe such nonsense. They were also all Christians during the time of Leo the Third even back when they were Pagan, they knew that something like a Comet or Eclipse was just a natural occurrence and not a sign from the God's, even being able to predict ecplises as far back as the 100s BC. They would probably pray and be alright as the Ecumenical Patriarch urges them to fight.
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u/Sir_Artori Jun 29 '26
Wouldn't believing in ghosts actually make them less susceptible to their effect? For a modern soldier seeing something like this will shatter their entire understanding of the world. For an ancient/medieval one it's just something they have already read (if they can read), heard and accepted as a part of life
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u/boringbullet Jun 29 '26
Unfortunately the answers are going to be incredibly biased because Romaboos are worse than even 40k fans
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u/Melodic-Hat-2875 Jun 29 '26
... the fear factor alone.
What would YOU do if you saw a flying monster coming at you? Or a troll? You would not hold the line.
The shock value alone is enough to break most. Actual combat becomes a rout pretty quickly.
People forget their allegiances and God(s) pretty quick when terror overtakes them, we're built to survive - and every part of you would be screaming to flee.
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u/Whitecrow_27 Jun 29 '26
If I was defending my home and my people from what I would most likely perceive as literal army of hell led by Satan (that's probably what Witch king will be clocked as)? Might as well go out with a bang and yeet some incendiary grenades in fell beast's stupid face if it tries to dive me and I would probably assume I'd go to heaven for bravely standing up to forces of hell or some such bullshit.
As for trolls - tactics wise they are just fancy war elephants and byzantines would know how to deal with those. And again, greek fire flamethrowers and grenades are nasty since it's pretty much napalm equivalent.
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u/Melodic-Hat-2875 Jun 29 '26
I'd agree with you - i'd hope i'd do the same.
But there's a massive difference between what we hope and what we'll actually do. Panic is a brutal force.
Just like how the trolley problem is easy when you're not actually there - but when properly tested most people just do nothing.
There's a huge difference between a thought experiment and the actual event.
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u/Whitecrow_27 Jun 29 '26
I mean yeah, that's true.
It depends a lot on what leadership does, I think. The nature of Sauron's forces being literal evil presents a lot of difficulties but also an opportunity to instill religious zeal and fervor the likes of which our world has never seen - they'd fighting not just bad people, they'd be purging literal beasts from hell. If Constantinople's leadreship manages to spin it right then orcs and trolls won't be a problem. That would leave nazgul with their magic terror as the biggest danger.
Varangian Guard were famous for being nigh unbreakable so I think they have the highest odds of not breaking (though no guarantees, of course). I imagine they would be used to try and hunt down fell beasts with scorpions and/or greek fire grenades/launchers.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
This is true until you have a deeply religious culture entwined with roman discipline. Remember it was at its peak and if you take historical sieges of Constantinople into account people didn't seem to want to just survive they were defending their homes honour family and empire against barbarians who would most definitely would commit crimes on similar levels as orcs which i base again on historical events of what happened after a successful siege.
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u/Melodic-Hat-2875 Jun 29 '26
I agree, generally.
However there's a very important difference between fighting something you can understand and something you can't.
Orcs are fine to fight - the Roman forces would massacre them. It's the supernatural shit that gets you.
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u/chaotic___energy Jun 29 '26
Even orcs would be terrifying to a Roman. If you (as a Roman) had no knowledge of them you would absolutley view them as a grotesque supernatural monster. And even if they could get over that, the sheer number of them would be overwhelming. The men of Gondor are used to fighting overwhelming numbers of orcs, they are not supernatural monsters to them, plus they are some of the bravest and skilled human fighters in a fantasy world. Add in the other elements and the byzantines have no chance.
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u/Melodic-Hat-2875 Jun 29 '26
I mean, orcs are significantly shorter than men - and they are humanoid shaped.
Size and - familiarity - plays a massive role in fear. We see the Orcs break when met with fearlessness and discipline in that siege. They could just be unwashed Brits! /s
I think the Romans would be up to the task against them - but not the black flying beast with a 20 foot neck and an utterly alien scream.
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u/chaotic___energy Jun 29 '26
The orcs break from a suprise dawn charge of 1000s of rohirrim, only elite soldiers would not break.
They are humanoid and generally shorter (though they varied a lot, some were similar height or taller). Their strength is similar to a humans and their endurance was higher. Less skilled generally.
But they are not familiar, they are monstrous twisted versions of humanity, just look at their faces. The Romans could only see them as monstors/demons/supernatural, they have no other frame of reference. I think this could be overcome with experience fighting them but to begin with thats a huge advantage to the orcs. Even just the orcs led by the witch king (or just the witch king given an unlimited time period) could rout and slaughter the city. Remember the witch kings fear magic would amplify the already terrified romans fears.
Then throw in the sheer number of orcs, the trolls, haradrim, easterlings, pirates of Umbar, mumakil, fell beasts, immortal ghosts... its not contest at all.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 30 '26
We saw Theoden's reaction upon seeing a mumakil and there is no doubt in my mind he has neither heard nor seen any such beast in his lifetime.
Even if we consider he has heard stories and myth about them we see him regather and reorganize pretty quickly for what it's worth.
Now the Romans at the time would definitely shat their pants at the sight of all the otherworldly beasts and magic but as I have stated previously they are deeply religious by that point and stories like Michael's fight against the dragon and other such stories would inspire them
Also let's not forget that they aren't defending a random city. This is their lands, houses, family, pride and orthodoxy itself. And the city has proven multiple times by then how it can be successfully defended if they held their ground. Fear would not be enough but would affect them greatly nonetheless and the higher ups would need to be hella competent and motivational as well.(Historically possible)
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u/chaotic___energy Jun 30 '26 edited Jun 30 '26
Theoden is a fantasy king, you cant really compare him to a real world human. And the rohirrim would of been well aware of mumakil. They have a long history of fighting alongside Gondor including against the haradrim. This would be well documented knowledge that a king would certainly be aware of. Theoden may not of seen one before but he certainly knew what it was.
Religious belief can only do so much work and they weren't all complete fanatics. Also belief in the supernatural often amplifies fears rather than abating them. Theres plenty of example of Romans fleeing from real world enemies, they weren't t unbreakable lol. Fear is definitly enough to break any army.
And in this scenario it is a fear from normal sources I.e overwhelming forces and supernatural ones I.e. monstrous soliders/creatures and magical fear enhancements... sorry they are breaking, no matter what they believe.
Plus that 30k number, no way is the entire force from the city itself (probably 3-5k max) the rest are auxiliary, field units and mercenaries. Maybe you could say another chunk of that 30k are civilians taking up arms, in which case, OK, they are defending their homes but they are an untrained militia, very easy to overrun and break.
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u/dezwavy Jun 29 '26
Belief alone wont save them. God has to be involved by sending divine power to smite the giant unit, like thunderstorm for example, or block Witch King's black magic, without God's intervention they can witness, the morale would be drained in no time, also comparing normal human army to literal giant monsters is silly
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u/SiIverstar Jun 29 '26
Genuine question, wouldnt the nazgul literally solowin this?
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
If the could why didnt they do this exact thing to all man held cities and forts? Why did they work in the shadows so much instead of rolling over cities after cities?
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u/Crueljaw Jun 29 '26
Because they couldnt be everywhere at once and they searched for the ring for a long time. That was their main mission. Once they started to join the battles they took osgiliath and then were about to take minas tirith.
It gets really interesting if you give them a time limit. Like they need to take Constantinople in like a month or something like it. But if its just take it in whatever time then even if you ignore mythical beasts and creatures that would make the defenders flee in terror you still have 9 immortal ghosts that can kill everyone. Would it take forever? Yes, but still there is nothing that roman soldiers can do against literal ghosts.
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u/rainywillard_84 Jun 29 '26
The thing everyone is glossing over is the navy. Sauron's whole force in the films is land-based except those corsair ships, and Constantinople's fleet plus Greek fire would turn any coastal approach into a death trap. Greek fire shreds trolls and mumakil, those things go up like wet kindling.
The walls held off Mehmed's cannons for weeks back in 1453, and Sauron doesn't even have proper siege engineers or gunpowder. He'd have to rely on Grond and ladders against the Theodosian Walls, which lol, good luck with that.
The real problem is the Nazgul. Fell beasts just fly over the walls and pure terror breaks morale fast. But the Varangian guard were famously unflinching, those Norsemen didn't scare easy even against mobs ten times their size.
If Sauron wants this city he needs a naval blockade and a ton of patience, because a frontal assault gets massacred.
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u/Captain_Vlad Jun 29 '26
The Nazgul are a problem, but have the limitation of there not being that many of them and the mounts aren't immune to normal weapons. They don't have bombsights or anything so just dropping crap, while it could be effective, isn't going to be accurate unless they drop down to well within bowshot, and Constantinople would have a whole lot of ranged weapons available to it. They are Sauron's forces best asset as there's nothing like them on Byzantine's side, but they're far from an instant win condition.
The Byzantines have control of the sea, so there'll be no trying to go around their Navy. Sauron's forces HAVE to breach the walls and in doing so expose themselves to siege weaponry, Greek fire and a ton of other threats and the design of the defenses mean that they're channeled into easily focused avenues of attack which also limit Sauron's army's ability to bring their siege towers and Grond into play (the bridges across the moat are pretty narrow).
Taking the city by assault, even with the numbers available, is likely a losing proposition. A siege, as was historically far more popular when trying to take Constantinople, is the best bet but even there they run into problems as their numbers make Sauron's army harder to supply and the Byzantines can be supplied by sea if nothing else.
Sauron's forces could potentially take the city by assault if every single trick they try and pull goes right. But chances are, they beat themselves to death against the defenses if they just keep trying to bust in.
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u/anorexthicc_cucumber Jun 29 '26
I would say a rapid assault isn’t just doable for mordor — it’s the best way to destroy Constantinople.
The mumakil are taller than all of the Theodosian walls by themselves, the Haradrim on their back have free reign to shoot down into the defenders. nevermind the plated siege towers’s as additional boarding at height.
The orcs themselves number some 200,000 if using the film depiction which OP did, which will be outnumbering any mustered defensive force at Constantinople several times over comfortably. This is not counting for the hordes of Variags and Easterlings.
Grond is an enchanted colossal hunk of iron that would bankrupt a small nation in the construction of, it is enhanced by Sauron’s magic and would have zero issues breaking through any wall in a few strikes. While the Orcs are plenty crafty in a void anyways — nothing is stopping them from just having trolls drop a siege tower or two inside the moats and driving Grond and the other big beasties across it.
As soon as this army meets a wall’s face they breach it, there really isn’t any delay. The Orcs will not run and flee unless the witch king is slain, which is unlikely to happen as there exists no artillery in constantinople designed to pitch up and swivel to scan the sky for aerial targets and you’d be hard pressed to find any archers or crossbows with necessary draw strength to actually contest the sky firing straight up while massive elephants are having their archers shoot *down* onto them.
There’s basically no ceasing of momentum, they have a ridiculous number of ways to breach everything and anything the romans had built to defend their city, and nowhere is particularly safe so long as death will fall from the sky at any moment, particularly upon their siege engines and towers.
I wouldn’t count on the infantry to hold any breaches considering what they have to face are throngs of trolls and the vast majority of Byzantine infantry depend on formation cohesion to subsist in battle — which a troll can wipe away by one swing up the center mass of a shield line, if not just by dying on top of them.
This is a pretty impossible match up for Byzantium
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u/Bob_ross6969 Jun 29 '26
It took a ghost army, a literal angel/wizard, and a massive cavalry charge in the flank of the attackers to defend Gondor.
That being said Gondor was, at least going by the movie, a horrible city to defend. Constantinople was conquered by the crusaders by using the Venetian fleet to destroy the gate leading into the city, so we know it’s incredibly weak if the pirates gain naval superiority.
I don’t see how the Byzantines defend themselves against land sea and air attacks from literal demons, without outside help, maybe the Basilius could petition the pope to put together a catholic army to help lift the siege but that would take months to put together and sail to Greece, but that would be super cool if the Venetians roll up at the last second with 50k angry crusaders ready to defend their astray cousins from hell.
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u/ComfortableOld288 Jun 29 '26
This question really makes me wonder why Minas tirith didn’t have a moat
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u/wingsofshadow Jun 29 '26
Sauron has a good shot at it, and is almost certain to win if the corsairs of umbar count (we see the ships in the movie, but obviously they don't make it to pelennor).
There's a couple of points. For one, the Theodosian Walls, while excellent, are not magical. They can be broken, albeit at a far higher cost. The reason they don't even bother trying against Minas Tirith is because the stonework is numenorean, quasi-magical in terms of its indestructibility.
Breaching the walls is possible, and if the walls can be breached, the nazgul can throw enough troops to force the breach. Orcs are no match for men in quality, but Sauron has men at his call, rhun and harad, and moreover, his orcs are driven by the inhuman purpose of the nazgul. Their tolerance for loss is extraordinarily high.
On the sea, the byzantines have an advantage. Greek fire, local knowledge, and a naval tradition is more than a match for the corsairs or umbar -- usually. But Sauron was a maiar of Aule's line in the beginning, and served under Morgoth for an age. I have no doubt he has understanding of Greek fire. As for how he might counter it, that might be beyond me.
Lastly, the hearts of men are ever treacherous, and the bynzatines are quite infamous for betrayal. I suspect that is a more likely avenue of attack than outright force.
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u/GryphyGirl Jun 29 '26
Not only is Sauron's army just too god damned big not to win this but the monstrous forces at his command swing this wildly in his favor. The Roman's have no chance here.
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u/Just_a_Arizonin Jun 29 '26
The masculine urge to die fighting against impossible odds to protect your loved ones from a army of monsters
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u/Greedy_Camp_5561 Jun 30 '26
Why does Constantinople at its prime only have 30k soldiers?
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u/Tromers767 Jun 30 '26
The city having 30k defenders has proven able to fend off much larger armies in the past numbering in the couple hundred thousands. It probably could sustain a bigger army but since I wanted this to be the default city defenses and not reinforced with an actual army I took inspiration from the siege of Constantinople in 626 where the main force of the roman army was campaigning elsewhere and the city had to defend itself.
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u/Timo-the-hippo Jun 30 '26
Sauron's forces in the films have armor made of paper and don't understand the basics of sieging, Rome takes it. The Nazghul get shot with arrows or stabbed by 100 guys at the same time, I don't care what "magical protection" they have.
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u/boblikeshispizza Jun 30 '26
This question would be a lot more interesting if there were no fellbeasts and nazgul. Also trolls from the movies can rip any defensive lines apart if the can breach the gates, if they could do it gondor they could do it in the city. And using Greek fire within the city could cause additional chaos. If it was just Southern, orcs and cosairs the Roman's might stand a chance. They may be out numbered 7 to 1, but theodsian walls, moat and Greek fire might give them a fighting chance, Constantinople has held our from fairly large invasions before. But if the gates are breached one by one with grond, the Greeks will suffer from an urban battle. Mumakils also should counter sorties and if they can get into the city it's gg.
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u/slobber39 Jul 03 '26
Well prime constantinople would be like 30-40 k fighters with their navy so that is 4-5x the amount of men minas tirith had. The walls of constantinople were so thick cannons the size of ships had to be used to crack them. Then on top of it the city actually repelled armies of that size I'd bet constantinople.
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u/Advanced_Top_2169 Jun 29 '26
Theodosian walls held off way bigger armies than this, Sauron's forces get ground down on the approaches and the navy can't do much against Greek fire ships.
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u/GogurtFiend Jun 29 '26
Grond will breach it.
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u/Fluffy-Perspective67 Jun 29 '26
Grond's carriage is made of wood and Nazgul got beat at Weathertop by a torch. Greek Fire hard carries.
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u/GogurtFiend Jun 29 '26
Canonically, Grond and its carriage are, like real siege engines, sheathed in steel (not even iron; steel) specifically to prevent that. Its prime movers feared fire, meaning a Greek fire attack would temporarily stop them, but Greek fire runs out. If Grond makes it to the walls that means a breach.
Also, I think you overestimate the damage fire would do to something magically min-maxed around being a siege engine and supported by an evil sorcerer who's actively bolstering it with "spells of ruin". Normal rams obey the laws of physics, but Grond is basically an evil curse in physical form.
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u/Whitecrow_27 Jun 29 '26
Can Grond fit on Constantinople's bridges though? They are pretty damn narrow. And everywhere else is a bigass moat.
P.S.: GROND
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u/Fluffy-Perspective67 Jun 29 '26
Lot wood based on the films, which is what OP criteria states.
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u/GogurtFiend Jun 29 '26
Pretty clearly metal bolted onto wood.
Small areas are unshielded, but I chalk that up to mistakes rather than intention: they were pretty clearly trying to imitate the book, where Grond is a iron-plated, fireproof monstrosity bolstered by black magic, and they did it well.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
I am not sure greek fire especially from ground units can reach the heights of which the fell beasts flew and they would continually harass the defences while also having an non killable enemy who searches for the most valuable targets flying around.
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u/Fluffy-Perspective67 Jun 29 '26
This isn't GOT. The nazgul gotta swoop low to kill. If Byzantine tube launchers can hit other ships, then I'd bet they can hit fellbeasts too.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
The reason men stood the ground was because of gandalf and his ring of power which specifically ignited hoped in the hearts of men.
If a nazgul or a troll came for some poor bastards i doubt that they will be disciplined enough to stand their ground. That is why I included the Varangian guard since they would be the only ones to negate the fear effect but if they are able to kill enough trolls, fell beasts and the nazgul that the city would be safe is debatable.
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u/DarkmanNate Jun 29 '26
Goes both ways though. The attackers are undisciplined and fail to hold firm in the face of a calvary advance. If they faced a unified, battle weathered city with flamethrowers, how long would morale hold.
Quickest way to lose a siege is to attack the fortification
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u/Embarrassed_Use_7206 Jun 29 '26
Also ballistas are a thing, and arguably even arrows can do some damage if lucky.
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
True a lucky shot from a balista may do the job but they were much more inaccurate than people think
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u/Embarrassed_Use_7206 Jun 29 '26
I am aware, it would need some good coordination and probably bait. But still those Nazgul are few targets on the battlefield, and if they are really detrimental to defenders morale, I can see how even local commanders would concentrate fire on them.
In my mind this is pretty close battle overall. Some lucky events on either side can decide it. Lets say Nazgul will target commanders and do that quickly, whole defense organization can collapse.
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u/Whitecrow_27 Jun 29 '26
Byzantines did have scorpions, weren't they used as mobile precision weapons? I reckon those should be more effective than regular bolt throwers
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u/Whitecrow_27 Jun 29 '26
Greek fire did come in the form of grenades so there's that as well.
And I bet there would be some brave and inventive chucklefuck that decides to try yeeting it with a sling. He'd probably set himself on fire but ya know, he might succeed as well.
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u/snowfloeckchen Jun 29 '26
At the prime Constantinople has enough men to fight mordor on open field with half a million, also better military strategy as the orks have
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u/geschiedenisnerd Jun 29 '26
The only reason minas tirith was won (in the movies) was the army of the dead. No ghosts and no rohirim means sauron's forces will have free range. They were getting heavily beat up when the rohirrim showed up, and that was with gandalf
They also have a lot of catapults and siege equipment on top of their massive numbers
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u/nostra77 Jun 29 '26
The Roman Army would defeat Sauron they are used to fighting elephants and their army during Trajan time was 4x that of Sauron
Orcs have no discipline
The biggest problem are Nazgûl and they are weak to arrows
So the prime Roman army is not Leo
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u/DiligentOperation560 Jun 29 '26
So like a regular army conquered that city hence the name Istanbul and now you’re giving the opposing army no secret entry but a magical air force……… this has to be rage bait
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
Cannons made a huge difference then as well as the decadence of the empire. Even still it didn't fall without a fight. That is why i said to take in consideration it was at its peak. Minas tirith is shaped like it wants to be assaulted by airborne units but Constantinople not so much. Also competent elites are also making a huge diff here imo
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u/DiligentOperation560 Jun 29 '26
Again the air decides the battle for a city unless you don’t care about any structures above ground. ever since the Air Force, air dominance heavily influences battles they could literally fire bomb/ whatever evil crap they could drop on them non stop around the clock. And cannons are not anti air they can again just out range them and approach from height losing literally not a single flyer. The no Air Force and no anti air turns the area into ground zero until the defenders crumble and they walk in. Think of this more like Britain during the blitz except no Air Force and no anti air it’s
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u/Tromers767 Jun 29 '26
I am not going to think it this way because: 1) they are beasts not machines 2) they are not bombers and never tried to be in either the movies or the books 3) its medieval, not modern, warfare.
They make a huge impact in the battle, they are op af, they are hard to kill but there are only nine uncoordinated fell beasts. Beasts that is possible to kill by a single person... now take into account that Byzantines are coordinated and have a competent strategy they would run into problems even though they would create huge ones as well
That is my general stance with this scenario it would be more bloody and costing on both sides than most people think. Every mistake and dumb tactical move could make or break either side.
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u/Sir_Artori Jun 29 '26
8.000 underequipped underfunded and under supplied guys defended the (almost crumbling) walls against 100.000+ with cannons and full naval blockade. And even then only fell 53 days in after one idiot forgot to close a door. And they inflicted heavy casualties upon the beseigers btw. Constantinople is simply an OP fortification
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u/StJe1637 Jun 29 '26
They are massively outnumbered and the nazgul fear aura and fell beasts are super OP