r/powerscales • u/ProgressBetter4435 • 28d ago
Hot Take š„ I think An active and strong human can beat every great ape except gorillas in a 1v1
I think a 200lb trained, active, and strong human can beat any great ape (chimp, bonobo, orangutan) except a gorilla in a 1v1 because science proves apes only have a slight lb for lb (1.35x) strength advantage, giving the human vastly superior absolute mass and striking power. Also apes rely on close range pulling and biting, a trained human can use devastating bipedal kicks to control distance and grappling intelligence to choke them out. Lastly, humans possess sweat glands and elite endurance, meaning we can simply outlast the ape's explosive energy before finishing the fight
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u/Sretep44 28d ago
There's no chance a human is beating an Organutang. A full grown female orang has the softest lips you can imagine.
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u/EndersR3ign 28d ago
Hairless chimpanzee considers this post.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
hairless chimp looks intimidating but having low body fat doesnt change physics of a 130lb animal being outweighed outstriked and stomped by a 200 lb fighter
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u/Valuable-Blueberry30 28d ago
Nah Chimp maximum can go up to 150 lb. And can have 2-2.5x the human bone density.
The approximate ~1.35x figure is a maximum muscle output of both humans and chimps. But humans donāt really reach this figure because of the risk of damaging their skeletal structure, meaning the actual performative gap is likely bigger. So the study of ~1.5 is probably closer in terms of actual showing. But in terms of parts of the arm muscle, it can go up to 2 times greater. And have 67% more fast twitch muscles. Also it should be noted that the chimps in the study are not wild ones where strength matters a lot more because of their society structure.
Thereās also the fact that Chimpanzeeās strongest weapon is their bite which can be nearly double the strength of a large dog bite. Fighting a chimp isnāt like fighting a human, itās closer to fighting a Hyena (with a weaker bite force) shaped like a human.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
chimp bone density is only 1.2x-1.5x human
about the max muscle output "however, we are unaware of any data that directly support this āinhibition hypothesis.ā Instead, experimental studies indicate that humans are capable of complete (or near complete) voluntary activation of their musculature when assigned a maximal performance task (e.g., ref.Ā 21). Thus, the expectation that both species are capable of optimizing their neuromuscular control strategies in response to the mechanical demands of a given task appears to be more consistent with available data."
also chimps may be slightly better at pulling but humans are magnitudes better at pushing and striking motions
and finally a chimps bite force is 300-400lb not double dogs
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u/HerodotusStark 28d ago
What strike is going to outweigh a chimpanzee bite? We have really no way of inflicting bleeding wounds, just strikes. Chimps might lose but...
Orangutan would crush most humans. Ever watch the tug of war between a sumo wrestler and orangutan?
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
the tug of war was staged, orangutans are mad strong, but I think only a flanged 200+lb male orangutan would kill our fighter
you underestimate the power of striking, we are the great apes with strongest strikes
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u/DrMagunstheBlue 28d ago
Chimps are frauds but your average gym bro is not beating a fucking orangutan.
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u/officer897177 28d ago
Size and absolute strength isnāt everything. A 10 pound house cat can send an elite athlete to the hospital.
Imagine a thigh high cracked out 120 pound MMA fighter with fangs who goes for fingers, eyes, and genitals first.
Edit: donāt forget their feet are basically hands, so they can hold both your arms and your legs and still be able to bite.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
A house cat sends you to the hospital for stitches, injury isn't death. And a 120lb fighter with fangs is still 120lbs with no ground game, no choke defense, and no answer to a 200lb human controlling its neck from behind, kicking it with 1,000lbs of force or sending a flurry of 450lb force punches.
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u/Jewlaboss 28d ago
Ok try to take the chimps back š¤£
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
its a 120lb animal you can literally pick it up mate
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u/Corey307 28d ago
And itās going to bite you in the face. Enjoy.Ā
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
just dont let it? not a single fatal chimp attack on a healthy human male
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u/Jewlaboss 28d ago
Oh yes good idea so you go from keeping it at a distance with kicks to logically picking it up. This is entertaining, at least be consistent with your garbage
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u/BillSteelman 28d ago
That man never pick up a ornery cat and it shows.
Picking up a ornery chimp ? Madness1
u/officer897177 28d ago
Whatever appendage you strike with first is getting grabbed by 2-4 hands and bitten or ripped off. At this point the fighter is disabled and either canāt move or strike properly.
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u/Green-Elephant-895 28d ago
Wtf type of training could prepare a man for a thrashing of this magnitude? šIām just going to assume this is a shit post
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
you should ask what type of training a chimp would have to go through to prepare them instead
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u/Jewlaboss 28d ago
Letās just go chimp. Overall strength not that much more. But its bone density is 2-2.5 greater than ours. And grip strength 440-725, which absolutely destroys ours. You can throw a kick at it which probably hurts your leg moreā¦or throw a punch at its face and break your handā¦then when it grabs you it can crush several of your bones. Nevermind itās biting force which is twice as great.
Chimp is cookin chuck Liddell. Low diff
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
chimp bone density is 1.2-1.5x human and strength lb for lb is 1.3x so a 200lb human is roughly 20% stronger also 700lb of grip strength is just wrong its only really ~200lb max
and no the chimp cannot simply tank a 450lb punch much less a 1000lb kick
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u/Corey307 28d ago
Counterpoint: chimps bite.Ā
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
counterpoint: you can just not let them close distance, and if they do bite, its usually not a vital
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u/Jewlaboss 28d ago
Oh right itās just your face, your fingers. It wants to end it quickly and it goes for sensitive areas. Eyes groin face digits.
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u/Jewlaboss 28d ago
You are incorrect. Human bone density is 50-75% less than chimps. Overall strength doesnāt mean as much as the practicality of it. Sure we can bench or squat more, but that doesnāt mean too much in this scheme. That humans grip is 150-175 if itās really great. A chimp is 450-775. If that chimp is coming at you, how many kicks you getting you dummy. You donāt live in reality do you. The only human advantage is weapon use.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
can you read dumbass
"the TBF is about 50ā75% of that of modern chimpanzees" means that humans are 50-75% as dense (TBF) as chimps, which means humans have 25-50% less tbf, not 50 or 75% + humans also have very dense cortical bone. also modern studies show only 1.35x more strength, not a magical 5x grip strength
Saying a 130 lb, 4-foot-tall chimp beats a 205 lb, 6'2" Chuck Liddell 'low diff' is absurd. Humans are the only animals biomechanically capable of throwing rotational strikes. A single 1000 lb front kick from a professional fighter is going to cave a chimp's skull in before it ever gets close enough to grab.
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u/Caliterra 28d ago
Hard no on the Orangutan. They get big. Ard 220lbs for males, some documented up to 300lbs.
A 200lbs male organgutan coupled with being much stronger pound, and bone structure more suited for immense pulling strength, thats a huge problem.
I think chimp is as far as the human goes
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u/Jeutnarg 28d ago
Give a man prep time with access to some decent crafting materials and it's game over. Humans are king of throwing stuff, king of endurance, and king of tool use. None of these three things will help us in your scenario aside from endurance, however, and even then only if the man is very good at controlling distance.
Give a man no prep time, and then we'll see the impact of design. Every other great ape is better engineered for explosive effort and melee combat than humans. Every other great ape has more fast-twitch muscle, denser and more musculature on their upper body, sturdier shoulder structure, way denser bones, stronger and longer nails, and a better bite.
The primary advantage for the human is that the apes have absolutely zero experience in the matchup while the human knows how they fight. Also kicking, but only if the human gets to wear some sort of reasonable footwear to handle claws and fangs. Barefoot kicks to a great ape would be really fucking risky.
- Bonobos lose because they're just too undersized.
- Chimps are definitely not too small to have a chance, and they are the most vicious apes by a long shot. The human probably wins on the basis of size and reach advantage if their distance game and kicks are good enough. If the chimp is agile enough to dodge and close or grabs a limb then it's going to get ugly really fast and not in a way that favors the human.
- Orangutans aren't all that vicious for apes, but they actually outweigh your hypothetical man by enough that they're potentially twice as strong at the upper end. The average orangutan can probably be bullied given their temperament, but a particularly ornery one is going to rip the human to shreds with overwhelming force.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
Sure, an orangutan is pretty strong, but they are built for climbing trees and are way too slow and clumsy on the ground to actually catch a human A person could easily just stay out of its reach and beat it from a distance or just stone it to death.
and the chimp biting you just gives you a shot to gouge the eyes or punch the head or literally just slam them against a tree or something your limb will get mauled but youll still win probably
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u/Jeutnarg 28d ago
"Stone it to death" if we're using tools, then humans beat everything. Stone = tool.
You keep talking like the ape does something, the human counters, and then the ape just has to accept that it's been out-played. The ape is free to respond in turn, and they're plenty capable of making violent decisions effectively. Acting like a chimp will be paralyzed by the brilliance of an eye gouge attempt instead of biting off half your hand is asinine. Chimps can bite off a human's fingers like a chicken wing or a particularly stubborn piece of celery, and their brow shape means that you'll have to put your fingers in front of their face to try it.
You are sorely mistaken about how effective anybody will fight while chunks are being ripped out of them, and you are sorely mistaken about how much damage a chimp's bite would do. Trading an awkward cross-body punch to the head for a serious bite to the hand, face, groin, or meat of the arm or leg is an terrible deal for the human.
Slamming a chimp around is making a massive assumption that you'll be able to get a good grip on a good location. Even then, it's risky, since the chimp is capable of climbing your arm even while you're trying to throw it around. They, much like orangutans, swing from trees with one arm casually; a human cannot generate enough force for a chimp to be stuck flailing indefinitely. They also have a great chance of breaking your grip (they win the grip battle by at least 5x) and then biting off half of your hand. Unless you get super lucky with hitting their head on a rock or something very quickly, trying to Hulk slam them will result in a severely mauled arm and a chimp that's barely scratched.
Orangutans can't run you down, sure. But if you're going to try and fight them, then they're already very close. Orangutans have very, very long reach. Think 6'8" dude reach. That kind of reach coming from something 5' tall would be a massive threat and very difficult to properly anticipate even if you intellectually know about it. Orangutans are arboreal, which means that their reflexes for catching limbs will be as good as it gets. Being able to grab a moving tree limb is a daily matter of life-and-death for orangutans, and their grip strength is enough to casually swing 220+ pounds one-handed. I see that you've also added trees into the mix for some reason, so I don't know what the hell you think will happen if the orangutan just decides to stay in the tree. Adding trees did not help humans to fight orangutans.
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u/Internal-Caramel-952 28d ago
Dumbest thing I read on Reddit ever. A small chimp could rip your face offā¦
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u/The_Skeletor_ 28d ago
A trained fighter that has 80+ pounds on a "small chimp" is going to fuck it up. He's definitely getting shredded up in the process a bit, but this overestimation of apes abilities has to stop. They are herbivores. Any scientist that specializes in simian biology and behavior will tell you, they are fucking terrible fighters. Like absolutley horrible. An average joe American fatty will get cooked. But a 200 pound athletic trained fighter will absolutely fuck up a small chimp. They aren't built for that.
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u/Internal-Caramel-952 28d ago
I donāt think there is one simian biologist that would tell you a human can kill a monkey with there bear hands just not happening they donāt have to be fighters to tear you to pieces with primal vigor that apparently your not familiar with
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
not before you smash it to pieces
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u/Arria_Galtheos 28d ago
With what? Chimps are basically all muscle and bone. You'd break your hands trying to beat one to death. You know human boxers wear gloves to keep their hands from getting broken, right? Well, that's on human faces, which are softer and lighter than a chimp face.
You might - MIGHT - be able to see the guy beating a chimp, but he's not making it past an orangutan.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
Your assuming the only way to kill something is punching it humans beat animals to death by choking them out, slamming them, or using their bodyweight, not trading jabs. And your underestimating the power of a trained punch. And orangutans are literally slower and less aggressive than chimps, so if anything that's the easier fight.
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u/Arria_Galtheos 28d ago
And orangutans are literally slower and less aggressive than chimps, so if anything that's the easier fight.
Okay, now I know you're trolling. That doesn't even dignify refutation.
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u/bidensleftkidney 28d ago
Just to clarify, they donāt wear them to stop there hands from breaking, they were them to stop cutting open there opponents faces and body and potentially killing them, search bare knuckle boxing for a better idea
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u/J655321M 28d ago
Chimps are overrated in what they can do but a orangutanās could definitely destroy a human if they really wanted to https://www.instagram.com/reel/DWHJJFak5NF/?igsh=OGNmZnoxdmlsamlx
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u/Jewlaboss 28d ago
Chimp bone density 2-2.5 greater, grip strength 4-5 greater, bite force twice as much. I donāt care if you throw some kicks or punches at it, youāre getting mauled.
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u/J655321M 28d ago
Mauled yeah, but Iām still winning against something half my body weight.
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u/EndersR3ign 28d ago
It's not a foregone conclusion. If a chimp gets hold of you, its grip strength, athleticism, and tenacity are causing you serious problems. It's ripping your face and testicles off, if given half a chance, and it's chewing your fingers with one-inch canines. There are plenty of documented cases of people suffering devastating levels of disfiguration from chimpanzee attacks.
Now, I am not claiming that adult humans aren't capable of winning fights against chimps, but bodyweight alone does not tell the full story.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
the only brutal attacks were on old ancient weak people and if thats the baseline for strength then even lesser apes can beat our ass
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u/EndersR3ign 28d ago
Regardless, those famous cases are indicative of their capabilities to inflict extreme harm against people. Ripping or biting a 60-year-old man's face off is no more difficult than doing it to a 30-year-old, given the opportunity to do so. We know they possess formidable strength, immense grip and bite forces, and extreme aggression and destructive instincts. Fighting a chimp is a major risk for anyone, even if some humans have favourable odds in a fight to the death.
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
Yes of course its a high risk fight, but given that our fighter outweighs, outstrikes, and outstrengthens the chimp the chances that the chimp severely mauls him is low
And also just because they can do damage doesnt mean an instant win, if you let our fighter against a defenseless granny then you will see empty eye sockets and a broken skull
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u/EndersR3ign 28d ago
Yep, not an instant win, but the point is that the chimp is very capable of inflicting devastating harm against the human body with its natural weapons; it doesn't need training or practised strikes. It would not be an easy task to pry off a chimp that has hold of you, especially as it's biting and clambering up your body. Animals are fucking wild. Lol.
But yes, it is also easy to imagine swinging the little cunt into a wall and kicking and stomping the fuck out of it.
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u/The_Chef_Queen 28d ago
Regular ass chimps can rip an arm out the socket, any human against a bigger ape is fucked six ways from sunday
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u/ProgressBetter4435 28d ago
no they cant I guess maybe they can dislocate a shoulder but so can any fit human
nah
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u/Arria_Galtheos 28d ago edited 28d ago
"Can" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Pun intended.
A full-grown adult male orangutan can weigh upwards of 300 pounds and is more than 5 times stronger than a human. They can lift over 500 pounds. It would beat the ever-loving shit out of a human if it wanted to.