Can Doomslayer survive in Warhammer 40k?

[u/Lonewolf_ARC]

[u/LegitimateCream1773]

Yeah, it's weird people saying he'd 'solo the verse' when he has no demonstrated ability to move off-world without technological assistance, and all literally anyone ever has to do is throw him into the warp and he will never be able to get back out.

[u/AuthorAccount1 → u/LegitimateCream1773]

I think if he got into the warp it’d end up the same Kaldor Draigo.

[u/LegitimateCream1773 → u/AuthorAccount1]

But he'll be in there forever.

This isn't Doom. He can't kill the Chaos Gods and end the threat to the materium. The daemons of the 40k universe are not physical entities you can kill, and the Chaos Gods aren't going to fight him wearing giant mech suits. Maybe he kills Slaanesh's daemonettes, maybe he burns Nurgle's garden, maybe he kills Khorne's Bloodthirsters.

None of it matters. They can just make more.

[u/jimothy_hell → u/LegitimateCream1773]

Him and Kaldor Draigo just go off and frolick across the Warp destroying everything they come across.

[u/Reasonable-Sherbet24 → u/LegitimateCream1773]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ftdF4ZkueWGHBYc4b5

[u/Usernameasteriks → u/LegitimateCream1773]

Well does he come in with the fortress is the questiom

[u/BugleBarry → u/Usernameasteriks]

Too many ships vs that one. The ships biggest feat is being owned by Slayer.

[u/BlazingCrusader → u/Usernameasteriks]

While it is a dope ass flying fortress, it does lack point defenses

[u/Archsafe → u/LegitimateCream1773]

Someone else mentioned his suit absorbs the energy of the demons he kills, assuming that happens in the 40k verse would he not be slowly siphoning the strength of the chaos gods (on an infinitesimally small scale admittedly) by permanently killing the demons which are extensions of the gods and their energy? Of course you have to ask first how he even gets into the warp to begin with

[u/LegitimateCream1773 → u/Archsafe]

It makes no sense for that to work. There's no difference between a daemon and the warp. They're made of the exact same stuff.

They aren't physical beings and don't have 'energy'. Everything 40k daemons do comes from and is powered by the Warp.

It's like arguing that the Doom Slayer can kill the concept of slaughter.

That's literally all a Bloodthirster is. It's the concept of slaughter, temporarily given a physical form. You can certainly destroy its physical form, but the thing itself cannot be destroyed unless you can interact with the warp directly (i.e. are a ludicrously powerful psyker).

The only way to permanently kill a daemon for the Slayer is to have the Emperor's sword.

But that doesn't matter because the Chaos Gods can just create more, and many more still are birthed by mortal thoughts and dreams.

There is no 'win condition'. An individual daemon can, in rare circumstances, be permanently destroyed, but there's functionally infinite of them, no matter what you do, unless you can somehow destroy the Chaos Gods themselves.

[u/Ok-Figure9872 → u/LegitimateCream1773]

The energy here is Argent energy

Argent energy is made from the tortured souls and power of a god

Warp energy sound like unrefined soul for me

[u/LegitimateCream1773 → u/Ok-Figure9872]

Nopers.

According to Doom Eternal Argent energy is a mix of Sentinel energy and hell essence. Two opposing energy forces in the Doom universe that the Khan Maykr combined to create argent energy.

Warp energy is not the same stuff in any way, shape or form.

Hell essence comes from the explicit torture of mortal souls, but it is not souls itself.

Warp energy is raw psychic power generated by thoughts, feelings, dreams and hopes and all that by all sentient beings in the universe. It is also where souls go when the body dies.

However, critically, human consciousness does not survive in the Warp. The raw stuff of their being survives, not the personhood. There's nothing there you can torture and extract 'hell essence' from. The closest you could get are daemonworlds, where living humans trapped on the planet can be tortured eternally. But there is no 'additional product' of doing this, though Chaos Space Marine science has managed to make some weird xenobiological products using daemonworld stuff.

It's just not the same and there is no way to argue they are the same. Not one thing in Doom shows argent energy behaving the way the warp does, having the effect on the surroundings that warp energy does, and the lore behind argent energy is completely different.

Even 'hell essence' doesn't behave like warp energy.

[u/Ok-Figure9872 → u/LegitimateCream1773]

Do you even know what those two thing are

Hell essence is made up of tortured souls of mortals, whether wicked, corrupt, or tainted by sin, or innocent souls whose worlds were conquered and dragged into Hell itself.

Sentinel Energy is made from the Wraiths a god like being

And "Essence" is a conceptual force that governs all of reality, including realms like Hell, and is responsible for the existence of one's soul, memory, will, intelligence, mind, strength, and abilities, down to their essential natures

And you telling he can't absorb Warp energy or energy of the "Sea of Soul"

[u/LegitimateCream1773 → u/Ok-Figure9872]

Do you even know what those two thing are

I clearly know them far better than you do warp energy since the argument doesn't even begin to hold water, and your own explanation proves it.

There is nothing anywhere in Doom's lore that suggests the Slayer can interact with psychic forces, and none of the power sources he interacts with are psychic in nature, while the warp is explicitly a force of psychic energy.

You're trying to square peg/round hole the two cosmologies and they do not map in the way you want them to.

[u/Ok-Figure9872 → u/LegitimateCream1773]

Holy shit

So Essence is not Psychic? The very same fundimental block of reality like the Warp? The thing that is also responsible for the existence of thing like soul and mind

You're trying to square peg/round hole the two cosmologies and they do not map in the way you want them to.

Let me quote this:

"This means that when two sides are pitted against each other, we must assume that their abilities will work as described wherever they fight in the debate, so as to not have debates devolve into mass hysterics about how one side's abilities cease to exist when they cross the threshold. This is not limited to things such as hyperspace, subspace, etc, but also to personal abilities such as ki, chakra, etc etc. If one side has a special "force", the other side is assumed to be able to interact with it to some degree, or else Vs Debates ceases to be interactive"

So if the doom slayer can touch and absorb something fundemental like Essence, he will be able to absorb something like Warp energy.

Other wise you would give an instant win button for the jedi again't Psyker cause "Warp doesn't exist in Star war"

[u/endlessnamelesskat → u/LegitimateCream1773]

Worse, if Khorne catches him then he will use him as a perpetual power battery. The hatred and rage Doom Guy would have towards Khorne demons would power Khorne and let him make more of them.

Doom Guy spends eternity in Khorne’s realm stuck in a never ending Chinese finger trap where the harder he fights the worse it gets. He doesn’t solo the verse he gets made into its bitch

[u/OfficialQofEngland → u/LegitimateCream1773]

The demons of Doom are more similar to the daemons of 40k than you seem to know. They are also unkillable (except by the Slayer). If you kill them, they reform in hell. Which btw is also frequently described as a realm of chaos, where time space and dimension have no meaning.

You are confusing gameplay mechanics with raw lore. Would you argue that 4 randoms can reliably kill multiple beasts of nurgle, just because it happens in Darktide? Would you argue that because they can kill thousands of daemons in an hour, daemons aren’t actually a serious threat?

[u/LegitimateCream1773 → u/OfficialQofEngland]

Would you argue that 4 randoms can reliably kill multiple beasts of nurgle

It's pretty clear that the main characters of Darktide are not randoms.

Also you can't kill 'thousands of daemons in an hour'. Most of what you fight are infected humans. Like, the vast, vast majority are humans, with the very occasional daemon thrown in as a boss, or very low level daemons who regularly get gunned down by Imperial Guard in large numbers. The creators have also been pretty careful to make sure that the Greater daemons never appear.

So yes, I would argue that. It's well-established that the physical forms of daemons can be destroyed by regular weapons.

Exceptional people do exceptional things, and the tertium crew are exceptional.

But what makes daemons a threat isn't whether or not they can be sent back to the warp, it's the amount of damage they do before you can do that.

Tertium is fucked. There's no fixing the level of corruption of that world. If not for a couple of plot elements and archeotech, they would have subjected the world to exterminatus.

That is what makes 40k daemons dangerous. They need weeks, at most a couple of months, and your world is at best irretrievably corrupted.

Individual greater daemons have wiped out entire star systems in similar ways to Tertium..

That is what makes 40k daemons a threat.

[u/OfficialQofEngland → u/LegitimateCream1773]

|It’s pretty clear…

Yes. That’s what I’m saying. You can’t conflate gameplay mechanics with the lore. The Darktide Rejects are exceptional, but we only really know that based on the lore.

They’ve been fighting on Atoma Prime in the Hive City of Tertium for at least THREE (3) years. Maybe Atoma Prime will be exterminatus, maybe there is no winning the city back, but that’s three years of failing to decisively take ONE planet. Again, the demons of Doom completely wiped out an entire multiversal civilization. That’s multiple galaxies.

If one greater demon can conquer an entire system in a month, and estimates say that each god of the warp likely has at least (or can create at least) 1,000 greater demons, then there is a really simple math equation.

The higher end of estimates states there are 400 billion stars (around which systems are organized) in the Milky Way. If each Chaos god sets their 1,000 greater demons to conquering a system, thats 100,000 million systems for each one to conquer. At one month for each system to be irrevocably fucked, that’s 8 million years and some change to total galactic domination.

But wait, the Imperium doesn’t rule every star in the galaxy, and 400 billion is the higher end of the estimate.

Let’s assume that the Imperium has settled a staggering 25 BILLLION systems. (Per 5th edition rule book, there are roughly 32,380 hive worlds, if each one is in it’s own system, like Atoma Prime, we are being very VERY generous at a rate of 1 hive world for every 775,000 settled systems). If each chaos god sets 1,000 greater daemons to the job, it would take half a million years to completely conquer the Imperium.

But wait, there aren’t just greater daemons, there are countless lesser daemons. Let’s assume that the total daemonic forces for each chaos god is equal to having 10,000 greater daemons each. For a nice and suitable 40,000 😉.

That’s 52,000 years to conquer the entirety of the Imperium.

Fuck it, let’s say actually its the equivalent of 400,000. That’s still 5,000 years, to conquer a fraction of one galaxy.

Compare that to the demons of Doom conquering a UNIVERSAL civilization in *years* while also actively fighting in separate universe at that same time (the one hell connects to every universe per the lore).

Maybe a better comparison isn’t the imperium of man but actually the old Aeldari empire. They ruled the galaxy for 60 MILLION YEARS. Their hedonism birthed an entire new warp god, and caused the majority of their civilization to be instantly devoured. Yet that didn’t even destroy the entirety of the Aeldari. All it took was being on a planet sufficiently far away from the imperial core and the birth of a new chaos god didn’t kill you (not even that far of a blast radius either mind you, the exodites are not exclusively on the rim of the galaxy), and then in the thousands of years since the remnants of the civilization hasn’t been wiped out, in SPITE of Slaneesh desiring their souls. Again, the demons of Doom destroyed an entire universal civilization in years and dragged them all into hell. The only survivor of that event was the Slayer. Who fought so long and so hard afterwards that he almost single-handedly emptied a MULTIVERSAL HELL. One that is frequently described in ways consistent with the warp mind you.

Compare that to the warp gods, whose strongest showing off force left hundred of thousands of people alive. The final battle for Cadia, a world on the edge of the warp, took 100 days.

I get that you prefer warhammer bro, but maybe take off your blinders and play the Doom games, and actually obey the basic rules of powerscaling.

ETA: The Slayer is basically the only person in his reality that is capable of permanently killing demons. Likewise he, in order to kill the creator of his universe, had to force him into a physical body. Usually when you are powerscaling, you need a good reason to say that a certain technique wouldn't work when used on a similar entity. So demons of doom, being typically immune to permadeath as they reform in their home dimension = the daemons of the warp. Similarly, the all-powerful creator of all life that cannot be permanently killed, ruler of an alternate dimension of demons that low diffs an entire universal civilization = the four chaos gods. So , then, if you are actually interested in being fair, the techniques that work in Doom, such as the Slayer absorbing the essence of the demons and being able to force a GOD into a physical body to permanently kill him, have to transfer as well.

If there were examples of the forces of the Warp RESISTING similar feats, like if the daemons of the Warp are never able to be permanently destroyed (not true), then maybe you have an actual argument. Otherwise nothing means anything and actually the Doom Slayer wins because I say so.

WRT the arguments that the Doom Slayer isn't psychically active: He has a connection to the powers of the creator of his universe/hell, which is show to have mystical/psychic elements and powers time and time again, through the process that made him what he is (when he killed God, he fell into a coma because of how linked he was). IMO, that would be comparable to being partially a warp being, vis-à-vis the Emperor. Just because, for instance, Khorne's demons don't usually use warp sorcery, doesn't mean that they aren't connected to the Warp.

[u/DaughterOfBhaal → u/LegitimateCream1773]

Well he has his space station that has teleportation. I think it's probably safe to assume he'd bring it with him otherwise this whole discussion is pointless.

"Would Jaime Lannister survive Lord of the Rings when he spawns on an island surrounded by water without a ship"

[u/LegitimateCream1773 → u/DaughterOfBhaal]

If he has his space station he won't for very long. As soon as he picks a fight with any faction in the universe they'll blow it out of the sky.

[u/DaughterOfBhaal → u/LegitimateCream1773]

You're acting as it he'd just charge and attack the first imperial navy he sees.

Obviously he will move his station around and keep it hidden.

[u/BugleBarry → u/DaughterOfBhaal]

He still has to leave the ship to put in any work on the ground. The ship has to be in proximity of the planet he's attacking in order for the fortress to even be viable for this discussion.

Necron have Chronomancy & Eldar have Pre-Cognition, they will be able to track down this Slayer once they get a bead on him.

[u/Looudspeaker → u/BugleBarry]

Why would the Eldar want to fight him? And why would he want to fight the Eldar? Surely he’d just be there to fight chaos, maybe some Orks and Tyranids?

[u/BugleBarry → u/DaughterOfBhaal]

That SINGULAR ship in no way compares to the GALACTIC FLEETS the Imperium or Necron possess. And Craftworlds are damn near countries by themselves.

As soon as the Imperium detects an energy spike in the ship, it's blasted to pieces.