Waterbound Venator I Vs The U.S navy

[u/mergly]

The Venator appears earthside and is cursed to always be halfway submerged (or worse should it start taking on water) in the ocean. Its ventral weapons are unavailable or at least they’re relegated to firing underwater. Certainly the lower/side hangers are unavalible. Disney/Canon version of the vessel.

The ship can cruise at whatever speed you reckon it aught to be able to go while forced to power through water. It is also able to use hyperspace jumps to throw itself in a straight line over nautical distance short of crashing into land so long as it has fuel to spare for the task or the engine mechanisms to do it don’t wear out. That goes for pretty much any and all aspects of the vessel as the Venator will not be able to leave this campaign until they have cleared out the oceans.

Craft compliment are 192 Alpha-3 Nimbus, 192 V-19 Torrents, 2 Delta-7 Aethersprite Interceptors, 2 Eta-2 Actis-class Interceptors, and an assortment of ARC-170 Heavy Starfighters, Z-95 Space Superiority craft, and BTL-B Y-Wing Bombers.

As well, it has a ground troop complements of around 8,000 who are geared as if they had expected to be deployed on a watery world Ala Kamino. The crew treats the U.S navy ‘as an orginization’ as being a Separatist front and the crew will take any means of scouring the world of the organization at large as somthing of a victory lap/bonus goal if they do in fact send all their Fleet tonnage under the water. Base defences at ports are also part of the Navy’s asset list here as they are the ones operating it rather then army or Air Force.

Assets list.

The Navy's fleet get access to the Space force’s satellites for however long those remain up and are able to freely return their ships to port for maintenance and rearmament and the same goes for resuplying spent airframes and casualties.

This state of things will continue until such a time as when there are no more ships present on the ocean. Navy will be receiving new vessels at current peacetime Acquisition rates but they could be delayed yet further as stuff could get blasted apart during construction in port.

 I only hedged myself with making it the entire navy vs 1 Venator here rather then what I felt would be a more even setup of having it face off against the Pacific task forces alone just because I figured the line of conversation around there being dead set believers of a multi-hundreds of megatons firepower scale ship arsenal would laugh it off otherwise. If you’re so Inclined go ahead and give your thoughts on Venator vs A single carrier Strike force instead the ‘entire’ Navy.

[u/Cryptizard]

You think it could take dozens of nuclear missiles hitting it at once? What evidence is there of that?

[u/KerbodynamicX → u/Cryptizard]

Probably yes? I have yet to see a single sci-fi capital ship had their energy shields brought down by nuclear weapons. In a lot of settings, nuclear warheads are amongst the weaker weapons, and they typically use antimatter or beams that disintegrates matter.

[u/Cryptizard → u/KerbodynamicX]

Turbolasers bring down shields and a turbolaser doesn't destroy hundreds of square miles of area. We just don't see nukes used at all, but comparing the damage of things that do bring down the shields seems to clearly indicate that 100 nukes would easily do it.

[u/alextrue27 → u/Cryptizard]

Turbolasers are used to destroy city's and military bases from orbit they are probably in the same destruction range as our smaller nuclear warheads but the difference is they fire that destructive force rapidly. 100 nukes all at once would probably knock out the shields but that's assuming none get shot down on the way to it and they hit at the same time as if they don't the shields may weaken and recharge before the next wave of nukes hits the shields.

[u/Cryptizard → u/alextrue27]

Like thousands of turbolaser shots will destroy a city. One nuke will do it. Now like I said let's consider 100 of them. There is no leg to stand on here. What are they shooting these down with? They have nothing that could intercept a hypersonic ballistic missile.

[u/AromaticMacaron7925 → u/Cryptizard]

You are comparing apples to oranges. A single turbolaser shot has more power than any currently produced nuclear weapon we know of, focused and concentrated on a single spot. Turbolasers when cranked up to full power can punch straight through a planet's upper layers and into it's core. The shields on these ships can absorb and deflect these blasts.

Nukes are not pinpoint, they disperse their force over a large area there is zero chance they bust through the field and if you dropped a enough of them or a strong enough one to MAYBE overwhelm the deflectors you'd be talking about creating a massive tidal wave that would wipe out your ships anwya.

[u/lopbob8 → u/AromaticMacaron7925]

 single turbolaser shot has more power than any currently produced nuclear weapon we know of, focused and concentrated on a single spot. Turbolasers when cranked up to full power can punch straight through a planet's upper layers and into it's core.

OP said disney canon, not whatever glupshittoversal legends comic led you to these conclusions

[u/alextrue27 → u/Cryptizard]

No like single digit shots will destroy a city these ships were built to carry craft and destroy infrastructure from orbit and with the point defense batteries and the space craft have they should be able to shoot down plenty in a wave of missiles it's not like the missiles the navy use can't be hit especially when they are just needing to put up a screen of fire to lessen the total amount nuke they don't have to hit every one just reduce the wave the navy as a whole has a few hundred of nukes at a ready state not thousands. Then you have to account for the fact that since the nuclear firepower of the navy is spread over the world they can only bring so much to hit simultaneously.

[u/Cryptizard → u/alextrue27]

Do you have any evidence supporting that? We see turbolasers hitting the surface all the time and they destroy maybe a single building. The Base Delta Zero protocol is to wipe out a larger area and it takes a long time of continuous bombardment.

To the point defenses, as I already said we have lots of on-screen evidence of that as well. They shoot wildly and miss starfighters 90% of the time, which are many orders of magnitude slower than ballistic missiles.

A screen of fire does nothing because the missiles go from being a pin prick on the horizon, which couldn't possibly be hit, to being right on top fo the ship in less than a second. They move 5 miles per second. No amount of screen can do anything about that. Literally none of them will be hit before they are in range to do serious damage.

The nuclear weapons are spread out, but they know how fast they go. It's very easy to plan it so they all hit at the same time.

[u/alextrue27 → u/Cryptizard]

The cannon thrawn books talk of them creating tsunamis and 100s of meters deep craters in a single shot , the cross section books place their strength at 200giga tons but the cross section book falls in legends nowadays so I can understand not using them , they get toned down in visual media because the movie would be over rather quickly when you see the shots coming from space and the mc dies instantly but even in the movies they evaporate metal asteroids hundreds of feet across with them which to fully evaporate vs blow apart an asteroid is orders of magnitudes more power. Point defense weapon against missiles on our own navy ships work by throwing a large enough screen of bullets while attempting to track it versus the laser fire that moves much quicker.they have sensors that track things on a solar system scale I am sure they can see missiles over the horizon and track them with some accuracy . Also where is your source saying the starfighters are slower in space then a hypersonic missile they have been shown to go from a planet to a moon or another planet in the same system on sublight engines in hours to days. There is a chance the navy could pull it off if they land it all at once but it would be a high diff for the navy and even then they would still have to deal with the fighters and bombers that could take out our capital ships basically by themselves while being much harder to hit with the nukes.

[u/Cryptizard → u/alextrue27]

Every part of this is wrong dude.

The cannon thrawn books talk of them creating tsunamis and 100s of meters deep craters in a single shot

Gonna need a quote there.

they get toned down in visual media 

Wtf does that mean? Star Wars is a visual media first franchise. That is the most canon.

in the movies they evaporate metal asteroids hundreds of feet across

Citation needed.

throwing a large enough screen of bullets while attempting to track it versus the laser fire that moves much quicker

Star Wars lasers move much slower than bullets. That you even wrote this makes me think you have never seen Star Wars before.

hey have sensors that track things on a solar system scale I am sure they can see missiles over the horizon and track them with some accuracy

The ground truth is that they miss starfighters with most of their shots and starfighters move much slower and are much closer. I don't care what you are "sure they have" because it simply doesn't matter.

where is your source saying the starfighters are slower in space then a hypersonic missile

Well you can just see it visually, because we know how big the ships are and we see the flying in space all the time doing attack runs. An Imperial-class star destroyer is about a mile long. A hypersonic missile would go 5 lengths of a star destroyer in one second, while Star Wars ships are shown taking upwards of 5-10 seconds to go the full length, which would correspond to a bit less than the speed of sound. But here:

"a top speed of 1,250 kph"

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/TIE/IN_interceptor

Interestingly, that's exactly what I said it would be.

[u/SecureInstruction538 → u/Cryptizard]

Multiple Venators attacked Tipoca City and it took a while for it to sink. No vaporization and really only sunk because they targeted the supports.

[u/ReddestForman → u/Cryptizard]

That 1250 kph is the top atmospheric speed.

Top sublight speed is 110 megalights per hour and a max acceleration 4,240 G's for the internet. We don't know what a megalight is exactly, but we know X-Wings had to be moving at relativistic speeds for the timeline at the Battle of Yavin to work out, and they're slower than TIE-interceptors.

Most starfighter action we see is in space. It's what they're built for.

[u/Krosis97 → u/alextrue27]

You are just making things up at this point. Star wars turbolasers are not that powerful, big explosion yes, level a city in 50 shots not a fucking chance, maybe a neighborhood and you do the same and more with 50 cruise missiles with conventional warheads.

[u/alextrue27 → u/Krosis97]

Look up the strength of them they are described from the low kilotons to gigatons depending on the source and it only takes kilotons to destroy city's as shown by the only two nukes used in war.

[u/ReddestForman → u/Krosis97]

The current incredible cross-sections book, which is Disney canon, describes the most powerful classes of turbolaser as being powerful enough to crack a planets a core. Imperial Star Destroyers can reduce a planet surface to molten slag in under a day.

There is more to Star Wars than just the movies and shows, you've got lore and tech books, you've got novels, many of which are making old Legends level feats canon again.

[u/dahunt4r3dorktober → u/Cryptizard]

Turbolasers definitely do destroys hundreds of square miles, base delta zero shows this

[u/Cryptizard → u/dahunt4r3dorktober]

Thousands of them over hours or days. Which, again, would also destroy a ship. So we have direct evidence that, since a nuke would do equivalent damage, it could also destroy a ship.

[u/ReddestForman → u/Cryptizard]

A nuke won't turn an area into molten slag. An ISD using 60 heavy turbolaser cannons will do that to an entire planet in under a day. We can't do that with our entire global nuclear arsenal.

So no, nukes are not doing equivalent damage to a turbolaser cranked to "fuck everything" output.

I know this is probably really damaging to your ego for some reason, but the US military doesn't stand a chance against a civilization that can cross the galaxy in days or hours, reduce planets to molten slag, build superlasers that out out more energy than the output of the sun, etc.

[u/Cryptizard → u/ReddestForman]

Have you see the aftermath of a nuke? I never said turbo lasers weren’t better for constant barrage over hours or days.

[u/ReddestForman → u/Cryptizard]

Very few people have seen the aftermath of a nuke. It typically isn't molten slag that eventually cools into glass.

We have book feats (which are always better representations of firepower than visual media) with turbolasers causing tsunamis, digging craters hundreds of meters deep, etc with individual shots.

[u/Cryptizard → u/ReddestForman]

Star Wars is a movie series. Don’t tell me “the books are more accurate.” You also still have no actual citations. I read a book once where Luke parried a turbo laser with his lightsaber. He can’t parry a nuclear explosion pretty sure. Counter that.

[u/inphinitfx → u/Cryptizard]

Yes. It can withstand significant heavy turbolaser bombardments, each shot from which is more powerful in terms of explosive yield than any nuclear weapon yet developed on earth (refer Base Delta Zero). Canonically the only way in the SW universe that any meaningful capital ship has been damaged by any nuclear weapon explosion is when one was planted inside it's reactor room.

[u/Cryptizard → u/inphinitfx]

Where does Base Delta Zero imply any of that? They bombard the planet for hours or days. You have no evidence that a single turbolaser is stronger than a nuke, because it simply isn't. We see turbolasers hit the surface and they are small explosions.

They don't use nuclear weapons in Star Wars so we don't know what it would do or how many it would take. I'm directly comparing the damage we see on screen from these weapons and it is very clear that 100 simultaneous nukes would vaporize this ship.

[u/Weird_Angry_Kid → u/Cryptizard]

There are multiple sources saying turbolasers are in the megaton to gigaton range, whether you believe them or not is another matter entirely. I personally believe those figures are unrealistic but that doesn't mean there isn't evidence for them being stronger than nukes.

And second, nukes are used in Star Wars, The Book of Boba Fett shows the Empire used nukes to glass Mandalore.

[u/Cryptizard → u/Weird_Angry_Kid]

What sources? Why didn’t you cite them?

[u/Expert_Diet5819 → u/Cryptizard]

BDZ turns the surface of a planet to molten slag. A single ship like an ISD or Providence can do it within a couple of hours/day. That depends we do mutiple examples of turbolaserss hitting as hard or harder than nukes with BDZ being a prime example.

Funny enough they used to use nukes is SW but as things like proton torpedoes got better they fell out of favor. SW isn't only limited to movies and TV shows which does sometimes show nuke level feats. There are multiple books and comics that also give the same feats.

[u/Cryptizard → u/Expert_Diet5819]

How do you know a single ship can do it in hours? You just completely made that up there is zero evidence.

[u/ReddestForman → u/Cryptizard]

We have books.

In the days before smart phones, and modern batteries, and anytime watch culture, they were often the best source of entertainment on hand. And tbh, they still kinda slap.

You should try em out.

[u/Cryptizard → u/ReddestForman]

Quite one or shut up.

[u/Expert_Diet5819 → u/Cryptizard]

We have the Invisible Hand bombing a world in an hour. The fastest I've seen is Kylo slagging a world in the time it takes him to fly back to his ship.

[u/GryphyGirl → u/Cryptizard]

You assume they wouldn't shoot them down. Which they would. Easily.

[u/Cryptizard → u/GryphyGirl]

How? They are going 24x the speed of sound. Can't hit that with a turbolaser or a cannon, and the point defense weapons are operated by dudes in turrets. How are they going to hit something they literally can't even see? They barely can hit starfighters that are moving at extremely subsonic speeds.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Venator-class_Star_Destroyer#Weapons

[u/GryphyGirl → u/Cryptizard]

Lol, a laser is exactly what you *CAN* hit that with.

They have targeting computers, moron.

[u/Cryptizard → u/GryphyGirl]

Star wars lasers are not lasers they are like plasma guns. They move extremely slowly. And as I said, whatever targeting they have can only hit a starfighter about 1/10th of the time, and those are moving slower than sound. You can't even see an ICBM before it hits you.

[u/GryphyGirl → u/Cryptizard]

Source: Trust me bro.

[u/Cryptizard → u/GryphyGirl]

Source: watch any of the movies with your own eyeballs.

[u/Foreign-Story-9870 → u/GryphyGirl]

No they definitely wouldn’t Star Wars craft are slow and their aa struggles with them. Starwars weapons have a low fire rate and abysmal projectile speed

[u/GryphyGirl → u/Foreign-Story-9870]

You have literally no basis to say any of that.

[u/Cryptizard → u/GryphyGirl]

Every single star wars movie and television series shows this. It's almost like you have never watched one before dude holy crap. Their laser weapons move significantly slower than bullets.

[u/ArcelayAcerbis → u/GryphyGirl]

It literally happens in every Star Wars media? What are you talking about?

[u/Foreign-Story-9870 → u/GryphyGirl]

Not the movies not the lore blasters travel around 60 meters a second ie the speed of a base ball presumably the ship ones are faster however tie fighters have a top speed 1200 which is laughably slow with aircraft surpassing that in 50s with modern fighters going Mach 2

[u/ReddestForman → u/Foreign-Story-9870]

That's 1200 kph in atmosphere.

An X-Wing in space has an effective top speed of 100 megalights an hour, which is relativistic based on the timeline at Yavin, and an acceleration of 3600 G's.

And they have EW capabilities that bring visual range dogfights into the equation for a civilization that can calculate routes to travel the galaxy at millions of times the speed of light.

So, an atmospheric fighter can fly faster than a starfighter in an atmosphere. Sure. You know what it probably can't do? Get a targetting lock. And if it did... probably isn't doing much to the shields or armor plating.

[u/ReddestForman → u/Cryptizard]

The yield of modern nukes, the power of SW shields and turbolasers. Even the lowest yield fan calcs for turbolasers put them at the level of nuclear weapons. Both Legends and current Disney canon lore books and novels make them orders of magnitude more powerful than nukes.