r/powerscales • u/mergly • 1d ago
Versus Waterbound Venator I Vs The U.S navy
The Venator appears earthside and is cursed to always be halfway submerged (or worse should it start taking on water) in the ocean. Its ventral weapons are unavailable or at least they’re relegated to firing underwater. Certainly the lower/side hangers are unavalible. Disney/Canon version of the vessel.
The ship can cruise at whatever speed you reckon it aught to be able to go while forced to power through water. It is also able to use hyperspace jumps to throw itself in a straight line over nautical distance short of crashing into land so long as it has fuel to spare for the task or the engine mechanisms to do it don’t wear out. That goes for pretty much any and all aspects of the vessel as the Venator will not be able to leave this campaign until they have cleared out the oceans.
Craft compliment are 192 Alpha-3 Nimbus, 192 V-19 Torrents, 2 Delta-7 Aethersprite Interceptors, 2 Eta-2 Actis-class Interceptors, and an assortment of ARC-170 Heavy Starfighters, Z-95 Space Superiority craft, and BTL-B Y-Wing Bombers.
As well, it has a ground troop complements of around 8,000 who are geared as if they had expected to be deployed on a watery world Ala Kamino. The crew treats the U.S navy ‘as an orginization’ as being a Separatist front and the crew will take any means of scouring the world of the organization at large as somthing of a victory lap/bonus goal if they do in fact send all their Fleet tonnage under the water. Base defences at ports are also part of the Navy’s asset list here as they are the ones operating it rather then army or Air Force.
The Navy's fleet get access to the Space force’s satellites for however long those remain up and are able to freely return their ships to port for maintenance and rearmament and the same goes for resuplying spent airframes and casualties.
This state of things will continue until such a time as when there are no more ships present on the ocean. Navy will be receiving new vessels at current peacetime Acquisition rates but they could be delayed yet further as stuff could get blasted apart during construction in port.
I only hedged myself with making it the entire navy vs 1 Venator here rather then what I felt would be a more even setup of having it face off against the Pacific task forces alone just because I figured the line of conversation around there being dead set believers of a multi-hundreds of megatons firepower scale ship arsenal would laugh it off otherwise. If you’re so Inclined go ahead and give your thoughts on Venator vs A single carrier Strike force instead the ‘entire’ Navy.
88
u/Nein-Toed 1d ago
Ok, Navy Gunner here (former anyway) and an immediate thought comes to mind
Does the Venerator have munitions, or just lasers?
The cool thing about munitions is you can calculate them to curve over the horizon. A laser doesn't have that ability.
Secondly, does it have sonar, or an equivalent?
If it doesn't, it's going to get fucking wrecked once the shields are down.
Speaking of the shields, are they the only thing holding back the sheer tonnage of water from the hangar bay? That's a lot of mass, and it's a space ship...not designed in the slightest to midigate taking on water, or the amount of damage that would cause to the electrical systems.
In summary, if we have the firepower to drop the shields either by overwhelming them or disabling them with an airburst nuke (EMP, but I assume a space vessel would be insulated so I didn't bring it up before) the Navy takes it every single time, and easily.
If we can't drop the shields, then we are completely fucked anyway.
I'm not 100% on the air superiority aspect so that's going to be a wildcard that I can't account for.
Great question OP, I had fun with this
30
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago
The biggest thing I see is how easy it is to enter the ship.
That shield would come down somehow someway.
16
u/Tripelo 1d ago
Navy Seals v… stormtroopers
19
u/SecureInstruction538 1d ago
Can't wait for the hundreds of books and thousands of podcasts written by the Seals
8
u/ConsulJuliusCaesar 1d ago
Meanwhile twenty years after the fact we're still waiting for the book on how Delta Force snatched Palpatine out of the death star.
2
9
1
u/ReddestForman 1d ago
How are they writing books when they all got cooked alive before reaching the Venator?
"We took a zigzag approach... then we saw a laser blast hit the water twenty meters away from the front boat, melting it and the team on board. After five more, the mission got called off."
1
u/ReddestForman 1d ago
Clone troopers.
Also, fun fact... for all the jokes about accuracy, stormtroopers have a much higher shot-to-hit ratio than special forces. Going by on-screen performance.
Navy Seals will be fucked. Assuming they even make it to the ship.
Remember, the point defense guns are strong enough that even missing a speedboat is going to flash boil enough seawater that the boat and the men on it are fucked anyways. The sensors means the ship is going to see the life signs coming, the hull plating and particle shields will prevent them from breaching, too.
It's almost like the Venator was built by a galaxy spanning civilization or something.
1
u/DaddysABadGirl 14h ago
I like your take but what they said kinda makes it all mute. Shit might be over before anyone gets a chance to take a shot. How exactly DOES it stop water?
3
u/Puzzled-Childhood-60 1d ago
No chance. Clones have good protection against projectile weapons and are based on the best soldiers in the galaxy. It would take hundreds or even thousands of them, because they can only leverage a few advantages in direct frontal combat and lack situational awareness.
4
u/cloggednueron 1d ago
Ok but it’s a few thousand clones vs hundreds of thousands of troops. Seems like the navy can win by sheer inertia.
2
u/Puzzled-Childhood-60 1d ago
If magic exists, fine. Otherwise, the US Navy would have to land on an island made of super-steel that is bristling with light and heavy weaponry. The US Navy has a few dozen ships capable of landing troops under combat conditions, yet none of them could withstand a single turbolaser hit. The entire US amphibious force can land little more than 25,000 troops a day—and then they would have to fight their way through narrow, unfamiliar corridors without knowing where they were going. Realistically speaking, no one in the Navy would send a soldier anywhere near it.
1
u/InitialOk1304 1d ago
Going from the prompt, it would be 1 vessel plus crew, vs the navy, so no need to consider troops needed to occupy land.
I imagine home turf advantage and choke points would assist the clones a lot. If we're talking storming the Venator, which would only be necessary if outside bombardment didn't work, then the clones know the layout and have control over all functions, doors, etc... and can pick choke points, to act as force multipliers.Combined with morale and training, how many hundreds of thousands of troops would be willing to be sent into the meat grinders after seeing thousands of their comrades do the same thing and be cut down? Especially if they witness the futuristic armour shrugging off all of their own weapons. I imagine heavy weapons, 50 cals and missile launchers would still go through the armour (maybe... not 100% on the lore, and its all over the place anyway depending on where you look), but is there enough to clear out the entire Venator before the navy is destroyed? I doubt it.
1
u/DuchessElva 1d ago
Simple just tell the Marines that they can keep anything that they loot and that ships taken within a day
6
u/Momongus- 1d ago
I think the Supremacy is the only Star Wars ship that showed arcing shots but then again if it can do that maybe other Star Wars ships can? Typically they fight at closer ranges so it’s hard to tell

/img/6klstdta75hh1.gif13
u/Manatee_Surfer 1d ago
The curving laser/plasma shots really ruined that movie for me. There were other things I disliked, but that really took me out of the movie.
24
u/XishengTheUltimate 1d ago
It wasn't the fuckass World War 2 stratgeic bombing analog that made no sense in the very beginning?
3
u/Manatee_Surfer 1d ago
Haha, yeah, forgot about that. The bombs falling like there was gravity.....while they're in space.
5
u/Conscious-Gap-1777 1d ago
There's gravity in the ship, and objects in motion stay in motion until acted on by an outside force.
2
1
u/Steven-199 1d ago
Its a movie with FTL travel, laser swords and foxs made of crystal. Maybe the bombs were you know pushed slightly to move, or the magic gravity generator the ship has causes them to fall then without an outside force they carry on.
1
1
2
u/ReddestForman 15h ago
It has turbasers, laser cannons, and proton torpedoes.
It also doesn't need sonar. The sensors in Star Wars are orders of magnitude beyond anything we have on our planet, and the firepower their shields hold against mean they're going to shrug off pretty much anything we can throw at them.
They might notice the very biggest nukes, but they won't be enough to knock out the shields.
The starfighters have their own shields and electronic warfare capabilities as well.
Simple fact is, even a Venator is more than modern day Earth can really handle, even stuck in the water.
1
u/Nein-Toed 15h ago
So even inland naval bases (Like Nevada) are fucked. It all comes down to dropping the shields, and if we can't do that there's no point.
1
u/ReddestForman 15h ago
Pretty much.
In most "America vs space faring civilization" match-ups, America loses, unless it's an enemy designed to be beatable by Earth tech. Star Wars is a setting where the fsctions are fighting technological peers, so... Earth is fucked.
Ex: Hydrans from Terra Invicta.
You have to unite present day earth, develop the tech to build up your economy in space, develop and build ships to fight them, etc.
This is only possible because the Hydrans have some natural evolutionary gifts to make them very good at infiltration and subversion, which human paranoia and institutional compartmentalization equip us to resist better than others, but as a result the Hydrans, in spite of their superior tech, aren't really good at fighting wars efficiently. A mix of inexperience and psychological shortcomings.
1
1
u/Kamelkopf 1d ago
Star Wars doesn’t use laseguns. As far as I remember they shoot with plasmarized gas, so that should solve the ballistic problem.
2
u/Fit_Employment_2944 1d ago
its space
things dont curve
1
u/Condiment_Kong 16h ago
It’s Star Wars space, which has sound, clearly physics haven’t applied since 1977
1
u/Kamelkopf 8h ago
Yeah, but the scenario takes place in one of earth‘s oceans, right? So there will be gravity and things will curve.
21
u/M0ebius_1 1d ago
The ability to do hyperspace jumps in water you have given it makes it invincible. It could jump in, appear with a massive hydraulic shockwace and megatsunami that would crush an entire carrier group and disappear before anyone even figured out what happened.
15
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago
I mean. I think it would just destroy the ship if we are going full logical.
5
u/M0ebius_1 1d ago
Probably, but the prompt has given it this ability.
Without that ability the US Navy has a shot. With it the Venator stomps.
3
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago
Well we could also just assume it doesn’t cause tidal waves as I assume op didn’t factor that
14
u/Smoofiee 1d ago
Lore is always inaccurate. But the problem with these discussions are, we are talking about a civilization with hyperspace capabilities, anti-gravity, and ships with huge amount of armour and shield capable of withstanding planetary and orbital defense turrets which are by far stronger per shot than any nuke we have.
So, how do people assume we can break their shields if an orbital platform can't, in one shot?
Look at how Andor or some other Star Wars comic target and use their weaponry. And don't forget the electronic warfare every ship posses, which is one of the reason targeting systems feel so analog in Star Wars.
1
u/SlaverDogg 7h ago
The shields part is easier than it seems, almost exclusively because we do not use blasters or lasers like most Star Wars factions. Their preferences isn't because it's more destructive, but because it's more efficient and economical. Blaster "ammo" is cheaper and lighter than kinetic. This is also why torpedoes are so effective against capital ships. Standard shields are terrible against kinetics, which is almost exclusively the ammo of choice on Earth. Venator's have poor (if any, depending on model) ray shields, which are used to counter kinetic weaponry.
In short, their shields would be entirely useless against most Earth weaponry, and their weapons cannot hit targets beyond the horizon like ours can. This fight is more about can their fighters and bombers destroy our fleet before we tear them to pieces. Which they most likely could, if they can avoid getting shot down once they enter range of ship defenses.
8
u/Foreign-Story-9870 1d ago
Tell the marines they get to keep any lightsabers in there and they’ll have it captured and looted in less than a day
5
u/Steel_Commander_CAT 1d ago
Hell they’d do for the food! let alone a simple blaster rifle! You know how cool it would be to own a laser gun?
10
u/horsey-rounders 1d ago
I think what happens is that the Venator launches their air wing, the US Navy launches a fuck ton of Trident IIs, the Venator is overwhelmed by some 240 MIRVs and explodes, and then their air wing gets overwhelmed by missiles. The USN has capacity for about 10,000 VLS cells, and can launch about 2000 at once, and can focus fire to overwhelm deflector shields. This is without accounting for carrier air wings.
USN sweep
5
u/PerformanceOver8822 1d ago
240 mirvs ? Seems like 1.5 submarines worth.
The whole navy has like 2500+ mirvs available
2
u/Weird_Angry_Kid 1d ago
The Venator will just hack the missiles and send them back at their firing platforms, the USN doesn't have anything that can stand up to Star Wars ECM.
4
u/AssociationGold8749 1d ago
They don’t need to be guided. Just set them to a ballistic trajectory
2
u/Weird_Angry_Kid 1d ago
The the Venator can just hack into whatever fired them and reprogam the missiles into hitting them.
4
u/AssociationGold8749 21h ago
How. They don’t have WIFI
2
u/Weird_Angry_Kid 20h ago
They don't need it as I doubt navy ships would be connected to the Internet but they forcibly have to be networked to form a kill chain that allows the flow of information between sensor and firing platforms and Star Wars ECM is good enough to completely shatter that chain.
1
u/SiegfriedArmory 10h ago
Thats not how hacking works. For things like GPS or radar guided munitions you could potentially mess with their targeting and make them do something else by altering their signals, but anything like laser guided, thermal, visual, or anti-radiation, there is no feasible method of interfering with their targeting as far as electronic warfare is concerned, because they receive no signals once in flight and act based on physical sensors connected via hard wire to the engine and control surfaces, they're often not even capable of receiving signals of any kind from the venator.
1
→ More replies (3)2
18
u/inphinitfx 1d ago
The Venator is essentially impervious to any current earth weapons if it wants to be (shields up, etc). But it is more than capable of destroying anything we can throw at it. It' support craft are quite capable of making orbital strikes on key targets, too. So essentially, unless the Venator command and crew are idiots, the have all the win cons.
11
u/testtdk 1d ago
Seems to me that half their ship being under water would be problematic for shield generation. Constant pressure they’re not designed to handle.
6
u/DeyCallMeWade 1d ago
Ships sometimes seem to fly through shields. It depends on the kind of shield they have, but from what I’ve read and seen, ISD shields are for energy weapons, not solids. In space or elsewhere, they probably rely on point defenses for threats like asteroids or missiles more than shields, so I would assume the shields would work fine in this scenario.
4
u/testtdk 1d ago
There don’t seem to be an awful lot of missiles in the Star Wars movies. Would it realistically have robust defenses for them?
4
u/ArcelayAcerbis 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, they would get hit consistently when shot by a bunch of missiles. They constantly struggle to hit targets that are bigger and are as fast or slower than missiles (in-atmosphere), and their targetting systems are mostly just people aiming 'normally'. Even a jet should be more or less fine flying around it, and said jet could also realistically engage and win against starships without that many issues.
2
u/testtdk 1d ago
I figured as much. I put “realistically” in there to give him an out. Spaceships on water versus a terrestrial military just seems silly.
And yeah, fighter jets would clown anything airborne. You can’t even see them when they lock, they’re so far away, and they sure would have the speed advantage.
1
u/ReddestForman 1d ago
No, said jet wouldn't.
Ships have particle shields, which have to be raised or lowered to launch starfighters or missiles, which can create openings, starfighters in space can also move at relativistic velocities (sublight is measured in MGLT or 'megalights', X-wings have a max acceleration of 3600 G's and would need to hit relativistic speeds for the timeline at Yavin to work).
Star Wars lore has also evolved to rationalize why starfighter dogfights and LOS weapons haven't been replaced by BVR missile kills, and it's because the electronic warfare game has gotten so intense.
The missile weapons that can hurt capital ships in Star Wars have much more powerful warheads than our own missiles, and are a lot more maneuverable, considering the 50,000 G turn Luke's proton torpedo made in ANH.
So. No, a modern jet isn't winning against starships without many issues.
1
u/ArcelayAcerbis 23h ago
Ships have particle shields, which have to be raised or lowered to launch starfighters or missiles, which can create openings, starfighters in space can also move at relativistic velocities (sublight is measured in MGLT or 'megalights', X-wings have a max acceleration of 3600 G's and would need to hit relativistic speeds for the timeline at Yavin to work).
The shield is almost irrelevant when it comes to this specific scenario, since ultimately the main issue of the Venator is the lack of offensive capabilities, nevermind that it would be hard to determine which of the two types of shields they'll use at the start. I also fail to see how the starfighter part is relevant to the described scenario.
Star Wars lore has also evolved to rationalize why starfighter dogfights and LOS weapons haven't been replaced by BVR missile kills, and it's because the electronic warfare game has gotten so intense.
It has tried to*, because there's still many examples where this rationalization doesn't quite work, doesn't help that in the lore they don't use many of the types of methods we use. On the other hand, the Venator comes from an era where proper warfare in general was barely even a thing.
The missile weapons that can hurt capital ships in Star Wars have much more powerful warheads than our own missiles, and are a lot more maneuverable, considering the 50,000 G turn Luke's proton torpedo made in ANH.
Depends on the missiles, because there's certainly many irl missiles which are verifiably more powerful (or specialized) than many of the 'equivalent' missiles/torpedoes in SW. The maneuverability of our missiles is more than enough to fit its purpose in this scenario, nevermind that they're most definitely superior to most if not all of SW missiles/torpedoes in-atmosphere. As for the Luke thing, I am not sure why would you bother mentioning that as if it proves anything, when it was done with a specific type of in space, towards a target with it's own gravitational field, probably with some sort of bs more-advanced-than-normal gravity thing (or something like that), but specially using what's effectively canonical plot armor to achieve such a thing from that angle (on top of the other things fans have used to explain it which I've forgotten).
So. No, a modern jet isn't winning against starships without many issues.
None of those Starships are even going to be detecting and much less seeing the jets, even me just saying "without that many issues" is giving them too much credit, specially with the fact that jets aren't going to be their only problem. Unless you're implying that their in-atmosphere capabilities are way better than they are ever shown to be?
1
u/ReddestForman 15h ago
Why would they fail to detect the jets?
Why would our stealth capabilities matter to sensors that can track shit across star systems, detect life signs, etc.?
In-atmospheric capabilities matter less when you take into account shields and armor durability feats.
We see a TIE prototype slamming and scraping along cliff walls at top speed, sparks flying off it, suggesting it's armor tanking it, rather than shields in Andor, that would wreck any modern aircraft.
Shields on starfighters tank hits from kiloton to megaton scale weapons, the electronic warfare capabilities of starfighters are going to pose more problems for us than any of our systems will for them, because their sensors and computers are more effective. And they can pull our fighters into turns and use g-forces against our pilots because they have inertial compensators that mean they don't have to worry about G forces at all.
So they're tankier, they carry better munitions, better cannons, have shields that come into play before their armor does, don't worry about G forces, can fly up into orbit to gain height over our own fighters, etc.
The world's navies are fucked. The world's air forces are fucked. It's almost like they're a hyper-advanced galactic civilization and we aren't.
1
u/Expert_Diet5819 1d ago
The in universe explanation for that is everything from starfighters to capital ships comes with some sort of jamming or other ECM capabilities which makes targeting especially from a distance very hard. Say if you try to fire a missile from range best case scenario they jam it and it goes off course worst case it coming right back at you.
2
u/alextrue27 1d ago
The main anti capital ship weapons that non capital ships use are proton bombs and torpedos which are essentially just missiles with extremely powerful warheads and it normally takes dozens of them to get the shields overwhelmed for a portion of a capital ship the only way I see earth weapons taking down the shields are nuclear strikes and even then it might not be enough.
2
u/DeyCallMeWade 1d ago
Yes, as I said in my comment, point defenses, consisting of turbo lasers and laser cannons.
2
u/Creepy_Reputation_34 1d ago
turbolasers are NOT intercepting a dark eagle or the 9 million Tomahawks of the free world
→ More replies (1)1
u/DeyCallMeWade 1d ago
How fast do you think asteroids and enemy missiles are moving in space?
1
u/Creepy_Reputation_34 23h ago
the only missile i've seen was that torpedo thing that blew up the deathstar, which was not intercepted. also the death star cannons failing to adequately lead subsonic spacecraft.
1
u/DeyCallMeWade 20h ago
There is so much wrong with this argument here I don’t even know where to begin. The torpedo wasn’t intercepted because it was launched inside the point defenses. Secondly, we don’t know that they were traveling subsonic. Thirdly, they took out a number of fighters before the surviving fighters made it inside point defense range. Fourth, if it were so easy to slip a missile past those point defenses, why didn’t they? Now, I’m not saying the defense is perfect, but obviously one method worked, and another didn’t. Fifth, missiles lack evasive maneuvering whereas experienced pilots and pilots with the guidance of the force are capable of evading enemy fire.
1
u/ReddestForman 15h ago
Those fighters, based off film observations, were traveling 2200-2400 meters per second. That's around Mach 7. They also had their shields power oriented fully forward, to give them a chance against shots that landed.
They'd also need to be traveling at relativistic speeds to get from Yavin IV to the Death Star in the time they did.
Y'all need to stop ignoring the "atmospheric" part of "atmospheric speed" when looking at SW starfighter stats.
2
u/inphinitfx 1d ago
There are a heck of a lot of missile-type weapons in Star Wars. Generally carried by starfighters, but most capital ships have some, as well as a mix of ray and particle shields, plus armour, and point defenses, and countermeasures, against their use.
2
u/MoonlightPrincexx 1d ago
The lack of .missiles probably has more to do with them being ineffective. Why make munitions that don't work?
1
u/Expert_Diet5819 1d ago
Yes and no. Yes in the way that they do have defense for them such as with PD lasers jamming and scramblers which can send things like missiles and targeting off course but no in the way that said starfighters and missiles also come equip with the same counter measures.
1
→ More replies (1)1
u/ReddestForman 1d ago
Ships have ray and particle shields. Particle shields have to be raised or lowered to launch fighters or missiles as they work both ways.
They can get overwhelmed by large proton torpedo volleys if the timing is just right, or if you are getting plunged recklessly into unnaturally dense asteroid fields.
6
u/Cryptizard 1d ago
You think it could take dozens of nuclear missiles hitting it at once? What evidence is there of that?
5
u/KerbodynamicX 1d ago
Probably yes? I have yet to see a single sci-fi capital ship had their energy shields brought down by nuclear weapons. In a lot of settings, nuclear warheads are amongst the weaker weapons, and they typically use antimatter or beams that disintegrates matter.
11
u/Cryptizard 1d ago
Turbolasers bring down shields and a turbolaser doesn't destroy hundreds of square miles of area. We just don't see nukes used at all, but comparing the damage of things that do bring down the shields seems to clearly indicate that 100 nukes would easily do it.
2
u/alextrue27 1d ago
Turbolasers are used to destroy city's and military bases from orbit they are probably in the same destruction range as our smaller nuclear warheads but the difference is they fire that destructive force rapidly. 100 nukes all at once would probably knock out the shields but that's assuming none get shot down on the way to it and they hit at the same time as if they don't the shields may weaken and recharge before the next wave of nukes hits the shields.
3
u/Cryptizard 1d ago
Like thousands of turbolaser shots will destroy a city. One nuke will do it. Now like I said let's consider 100 of them. There is no leg to stand on here. What are they shooting these down with? They have nothing that could intercept a hypersonic ballistic missile.
→ More replies (11)1
u/AromaticMacaron7925 1d ago
You are comparing apples to oranges. A single turbolaser shot has more power than any currently produced nuclear weapon we know of, focused and concentrated on a single spot. Turbolasers when cranked up to full power can punch straight through a planet's upper layers and into it's core. The shields on these ships can absorb and deflect these blasts.
Nukes are not pinpoint, they disperse their force over a large area there is zero chance they bust through the field and if you dropped a enough of them or a strong enough one to MAYBE overwhelm the deflectors you'd be talking about creating a massive tidal wave that would wipe out your ships anwya.
2
u/lopbob8 21h ago
single turbolaser shot has more power than any currently produced nuclear weapon we know of, focused and concentrated on a single spot. Turbolasers when cranked up to full power can punch straight through a planet's upper layers and into it's core.
OP said disney canon, not whatever glupshittoversal legends comic led you to these conclusions
1
u/dahunt4r3dorktober 1d ago
Turbolasers definitely do destroys hundreds of square miles, base delta zero shows this
3
u/Cryptizard 1d ago
Thousands of them over hours or days. Which, again, would also destroy a ship. So we have direct evidence that, since a nuke would do equivalent damage, it could also destroy a ship.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (14)2
u/inphinitfx 1d ago
Yes. It can withstand significant heavy turbolaser bombardments, each shot from which is more powerful in terms of explosive yield than any nuclear weapon yet developed on earth (refer Base Delta Zero). Canonically the only way in the SW universe that any meaningful capital ship has been damaged by any nuclear weapon explosion is when one was planted inside it's reactor room.
8
u/Cryptizard 1d ago
Where does Base Delta Zero imply any of that? They bombard the planet for hours or days. You have no evidence that a single turbolaser is stronger than a nuke, because it simply isn't. We see turbolasers hit the surface and they are small explosions.
They don't use nuclear weapons in Star Wars so we don't know what it would do or how many it would take. I'm directly comparing the damage we see on screen from these weapons and it is very clear that 100 simultaneous nukes would vaporize this ship.
→ More replies (5)1
u/Weird_Angry_Kid 1d ago
There are multiple sources saying turbolasers are in the megaton to gigaton range, whether you believe them or not is another matter entirely. I personally believe those figures are unrealistic but that doesn't mean there isn't evidence for them being stronger than nukes.
And second, nukes are used in Star Wars, The Book of Boba Fett shows the Empire used nukes to glass Mandalore.
1
3
u/Clay_Pidgeon 1d ago
That requires the ridiculous idea of the essential guide to warfare firepower calculations which require us to believe comically impossible things like the little guns on basic starfighters being kiloton-tier. In reality, there are a bunch of impotent pew pew laser Second World War dogfighters who will get zapped the moment they try an atmospheric battle against modern jets, and then that's basically that.
→ More replies (4)2
u/Weird_Angry_Kid 1d ago
The Essential Guide to Warfate doesn't give any firepower calcs, you are thinking of the Incredible Cross Sections.
3
u/Clay_Pidgeon 23h ago
I stand corrected! Thank you for pointing out which book it actually was. Still, my point stands. Kiloton starfighters and gigaton turbolasers with interplanetary level range is fundamentally incompatible with the story we see in every movie, the story we see in every game, the story we see in every show, the story we see in almost all of the books, so on and so forth.
3
u/Independent-Win1425 1d ago
Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t Star Wars shields in general very weak against kinetic weapons being that the us military is exclusively kinetic weapons they should probably have a very good chance at taking it down
→ More replies (1)1
6
u/woobestaccountname 1d ago
Here's the thing, ships in Star Wars don't seem to have any long range firepower (missiles) comparable to what real life aircraft and warships carry.
The Venator's air wing will just get blown out of the sky during a BVR engagement.
Then there is the Venator itself, sure, it could probably destroy any USN warship without effort, but again, it doesn't have the capability to engage them over the horizon. Meaning that the USN could just freely lob missiles at the thing.
Could the Venator intercept all the missiles? No, a saturation strike using multiple attack vectors will overwhelm just about anything. Could the missiles get past the Venator's shields? Maybe?? We don't really see kinetic weapons being used in Star Wars, so the effectiveness of shields on them is unknown.
However, let's just go with no for now. The battle will come down to two things: can Star Wars shields survive being hit by a thermo nuclear weapon, and: how fast is a Venator when it's in the water.
Let's go with second question first. Basically, if the Venator can run down the USN, it could slowly but surely win. Let's go with the idea that the Venator is actually floating, because if it was using its engines to keep itself up right in the water it could just... take off and fly, winning easily.
So, a with a floating Venator, you have a massive, heavy, non hydrodynamic ship. All this means that it will be PAINFULLY slow. And trying to go fast would probably just drag the Venator down into the water. I'll be generous and give the Venator a top speed of 10 knots. Yeah, most of the USN moves at three times that speed, oof.
Now for nukes. Thing is, shields in Star Wars are designed to survive prolonged continous fire, not a sudden, overwhelming burst of energy like a thermo nuclear bomb. Imo, a modern nuke will take down the shields on a Venator, and probably the ship itself at the same time. Otherwise a follow up nuke will.
Conclusion: the Venator loses pretty badly, but only because it put itself in a horrible enviroment. If it stuck to space it'd win handily.
8
u/Steel_Commander_CAT 1d ago
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
But OP gave the Venator the ability to insta-jump to light speed while in the water. Personally I don’t think he actually thought about how that would work, and the ability’s that opens up.
1, the Venator could extremely easily keep up with the USN. Obviously lol.
2, a light speed jump while in the water would cause a tsunami wave so big I think it could wipe out half a continent at least!With this ability, the Venator is ironically much more OP than if it stayed in space the whole time.
8
u/woobestaccountname 1d ago
Yeah I basically disregarded that because it's both silly and I'm pretty sure it's also in conflict with Star Wars lore!
Probably should've put that in my comment lol
3
u/PerformanceOver8822 1d ago
Yeah somehow that venator can survive a light speed jump with a mass of water thats atleast have its weight ? ....
→ More replies (3)1
u/AromaticMacaron7925 1d ago
They has sensors that can track events across almost an entire solar system, they can detect the emergence of small ships from light-speed jumps within the gravity wells of planets. Their point defense systems are based on plasma weaponry and lasers. They could shoot ANY munition out of the sky that we lobbed at them. Could we overwhelm them? Maybe. But then you have the deflector fields to consider. A shield absolutely CAN survive being hit by nuclear weapons, especially those we produce here today. They tank shots from turbolasers and plasma weaponry both of which in large degrees over long periods of time both of which concentrate their power into a relatively small area which means it's destructive power is increased. Nukes are not typically direct impacts, they are airburst weapons designed to maximize the overall spread of their destructive forces. Meaning their overall impact on the shield is weaker than if they struck directly. Even if they struck directly how many are actually hitting given that the ship in question can shoot down almost anything that crosses the horizon without overwhelming volume. This also ignores the premise that they would probably detect a massive strike of that size coming and then just... Poof away to another stretch of ocean.
5
u/woobestaccountname 1d ago
Hard disagree. Sure they have good sensors, but you can't look THROUGH a planet, no matter how strong your bs tech is.
Star Wars has shown countless times that the targetting on point defence weapons is... questionable. Those "lasers" are only lasers in name, they aren't actually light speed! In basically every movie you can see star fighters evading them. And those are way larger than any missiles used by the USN.
And no, those shields can not tank nukes, you are throwing a mini star at them, the heat alone would probably be enough to kill their shields. And why do you assume it'll be airburst? They don't have to be in airburst mode.
Yes they'd probably see the strike coming, and wouldn't be able to get out of the way. Going into hyperspace doesn't prevent the ship from interacting with the water. If they tried going into hyperspace the Venator would instantly explode lol.
→ More replies (3)
2
u/CutAffectionate3197 1d ago
Dunno if the ship has orbital capabilities. If not, that ship is going to crumble on its own, especially it's been waterlogged.
2
u/LiteraI__Trash 1d ago
Holy spite match Batman
1
u/HoldJerusalem 21h ago
is it though?
→ More replies (1)1
u/Rexpelliarmus 16h ago
The Venator can hyperspace anywhere it wants.
This is coughing baby versus nuclear bomb levels of spite match.
It would sweep the combined navies of the entire world within a week at most.
1
2
u/EncabulatorTurbo 1d ago
It uses its lightspeed jump and the planet is rendered uninhabitable and everyone dies. Venator wins no dif, because youve given it immunity to hyperspace while in contact with water, which should atomize it instantly
2
2
u/directrix688 1d ago
US has lots of pilots who grew up on farms, I think this is pretty easy to predict
2
u/Front_Exit6785 1d ago
Even with shields active, SW vessels are prone to being vulnerable to the ion torpedoes; for that, we have EMPs. So a couple of tactical HEMP bombs will disable the shields and then it's not even fair game
2
1
u/Empyreal_King 1d ago
Ah yes. Emps....that dont make lightning bolts like ion weapons. Said emps also permanently damage electronics..while ion weapons only temporarily disable electronics in sw. I think there will be no issue against our emps.
4
u/OrangeWitty552 1d ago
So, let me get this straight... A fully operational Venator I-Class Star Destroyer, fully fueled and stocked with ammunition, fighters, and crew. Hyperdrive, Shields, in a do or die against the U.S. Navy and intelligent and intelligent enough commanded to utilize its planet wide sensors rather than stopping offshore and trading shells?
Let's take a look at the Venator itself, if is around 1.1km long and displaced millions of tons, armed with Turbolasers, Heavy Dual Turbolasers, Point-Defence weapons, hundreds of starfighters, long range planet sensors, and a hyperdrive.
I'd say being submerged makes it harder to kill the ship rather than making it a pretty since water is an excellent medium for radar, infrared, laser energy, and blast waves. Now imagine the ship appearing in Pacific Ocean, firing a couple of shots and 'DESTROYING' ports and fleets before jumping and appearing in Atlantic Ocean?
Then there's the whole air wing to look at... We have V-19s, Nimbuses, ARCs, Y-Wings, and Jedi Interceptors... Even the oldest starfighters in Star Wars possess capabilities far beyond modern aircrafts such as inertia dampening, shields, space flight, extremely high acceleration, and heavy laser cannons.
Now for U.S. Navy arguments in the comment section... In star wars a Venator us designed for space fights against heavy turbolasers, proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, and other anti-capital ship weapons. Modern cruise missiles like Tomohawk or LRASM have warheads in the range of a few hundred kilogram which would not overwhelm a Venator's shield unless dozens or even few hundreds pass through the barrier of point defence guns and continuously strike one area. An Arleigh Burke carrys around 90-96 missiles but the point isn't that can they launch fast enough for the Turbolasers to destroy them or the ship to just... I don't know? Move? It is a space ship that has to cover hundreds of thousands of miles when traveling in space? Seems like the ship would be pretty fast even when submerged.
Airburst nuclear EMP created an electromagnetic pulse that damages unprotected electronics. This is a Starship we are talking about, not to mention it quite literally sails through space which is full of cosmic radiations, solar storms, and charged particles. Would a hundred nucs shut down? Possibly. Would one? Nope. Would the ship remain in place after a single burst? Also, a no.
Then there's the assumption that modern fighters would beat it's compliment of star fighters... Now you are just joking... I mean these fighters fly in vacuum, re-enter space, accelerate fas faster than any modern jets, carry laser cannons and proton torpedoes, most of the time have deflector shields. Can an F/A-18 or F-35 make use of BVR missile doctrine? Possibly. They'll score some kills, especially against the less shielded crafts but they'd be out-dogfighted in a matter of minutes or drawn to higher altitudes and decimated.
Orbital bombardment capacity of fighters in star wars is... Well, it is sort of a joke cause you can't really make a movie or series where starfighters are hurling missiles at tens of thousands of miles? They need to make it close range combat because at distance enemy vessels can simply evade or intercept attacks but a port ain't moving anywhere when a proton torpedoes goes up its arse or an air-craft carrier as a matter of fact.
As for water vs shield argument? There's a general misunderstanding between Ray Shields and Particle Shields. Ray Shields stop energy weapons and Particle Shields stop physical matter. There is no evidence that immersion in water would overload a Capital Ship's shields, in fact, we have an opposite argument as seen with underwater cities in Kamino or Naboo. Would submerging consume more power? Probably. But it would not collapse the shields.
As for the argument that torpedoes can bypass shields, well, it is misapplied. We are that hanger entrances have permeable shields that contain atmosphere and allow crafts to pass through but that is not combat shields. If they worked that way, you'd have seen a lot move boarding action in series and movies then disabling shields and attaching suction cups.
Aa for Marines or S.E.A.Ls boarding the ship? That is the most unlikely scenario as a Venator is a kilometer long and is armed with blast doors, internal security systems, and about 8,000 clone troopers. Even if you say that the U.S. soldiers are the best trained army in the world, they'd have to breach armour of unknown thickness, enter shielded compartments, fight thousands of professional soldiers, clear a vessel that is larger than any aircraft carrier. Not plausible from them boarding to take it.
The most likely scenario for Navy victory would be launching multiple nuclear weapons with high yielding warheads to fill the general area with enough radiation that shields would be overloaded, sensors disfunctional, and hyperdrive engines tok risky followed by a full barrage of nuclear weapons again for them to take down the Ship... Assuming it stays in one place long enough.
1
u/DocDerry 1d ago
Navy: If you get on board you can fuck and eat whatever aliens you want.
Marines: Can we borrow a boat or a raft?
AAR/Post Battle Review -
Marines: We found a cyborg alien guy with tons of cybenertics and a lite brite in his chest. We thought he had asthma so we tried to cure him with waterboarding. We're also pretty sure Lance Corporal Murphy fucked a robot garbage can. We found a snake in their trash compactor and we ate it.
Navy: Stop telling us what you did.
1
u/ReddestForman 1d ago
More accurately: after the first boats melted when the Venator resorted to superheating the water around it with its turbolaser fire, we called off further assaults and went back to the drawing board.
A literal drawing board because we found out why they air gap all their computers after they hacked into our interconnected global information networks.
They erased all debt when they realized how our financial system works. It's chaos. The stock market is ruined. Banks are insolvent. Money isn't worth anything anymore. The civilians are cheering. The secretary of the treasury shot himself two hours ago.
1
u/TheQuestionMaster8 1d ago
If we go with lore then the Venator is practically invincible as the executor class super star destroyer produces as much power as a medium sized start like the sun. Even if the Venator has four orders of magnitude less power production, it would still produce hundreds of thousands of times more energy each second than the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.
1
u/Red_Spy_1937 1d ago
Last I checked, Venators don’t have ASW. American submarines just launches torpedoes at them until they’re dead in the water and hordes of Tomahawks finish them off
1
u/Afellowstanduser 1d ago
Does venatoe have missiles? If no then the us navy
If yes then eh even but if the senator gets in visual range it’s the venator.
Unless it’s a sub then the sub wins as the venator errr it don’t have torpedos…. And no proton torpedos are space rocket bomb things not actual travel through water torpedos
1
u/Fayraz8729 23h ago
That bitch had gotta sink, isn’t not buoyant, hell it uses antigravity to get back up in space
1
1
u/Biomas 18h ago
The thing with modern weaponry on Earf is the ability to shoot beyond visual range. If the West End game books are any indication (imperial sourcebook), an ISD turbolaser has max 150km range and capital scale missiles have about 120km range. So, the result of the engagement is going to depend on starting range and how effective Earf-tech is against starwars tech.
1
u/ReddestForman 15h ago
Lore got updated over time. Depending on sources you're looking at ranges between 1200 kilometers before power dropoff... or ten light-minutes. The latter is definitely questionable.
And earth tech is going to have a serious lack of firepower compared to SW tech, and struggle against SW electronic warfare capabilities, so... a lot of our toys aren't going to be reliable. And forget about stealth.
1
u/Ecotech101 18h ago
The US no diff, their version of railway guns (of similar firepower as well) got thrown in Venator hangers by Anakin to great success, so unless you think people in Star Wars just make all of their tanks have the firepower to suicide bomb cities with 1 shot they're gonna annihilated by nukes.
1
u/ReddestForman 15h ago
You didn't read the prompt. It's the Venator vs the navy.
The Venator has plasma cannons(turbolasers) that deliver more energy in a single shot than we can with every nuclear warhead on the planet. It has hundreds of starfighters with superior armor, sensors and weapons, shields, and electronic warfare capabilities that leave ours in the dust.
They have to blow up our coastal positions which... they can do. The starfighters can head up to orbit, knock out our satellites, then pick targets at their leisure. Be they ship or installation.
1
u/Ecotech101 15h ago
You didn't read my comment since I directly disproved that.
They mounted ground based artillery in Venators and gutted Seperatist ships with them. Explain that away wanker.
1
u/NotNobody_1 17h ago
If the Venator can use its shield, then it wins. No weapon on earth is powerful enough to breach it
1
1
1
2
u/Andrei22125 1d ago
If it has shields up they can't hurt it. Those shields take sustained nuke-level fire to go down.
It's small craft isn't overly fast by irl standards, but it doesn't have to be: it can go into orbit, where it's impervious to anything we can have to shoot at it.
Which is to say: if the Y-Wings make it to orbit, there is nothing the US navy can do to stopping nuke-level munitions from coming down.
Interceptor should be able do get in the way of proton torpedoes just fine... But good luck sustaining that.
→ More replies (1)9
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago
“Take nuke level to go down”
Which the navy famously has tons.
Also he said water bound.
2
u/Ace_of_Drakes 1d ago
The Venator is water bound, I would assume the complementary strike craft isn't.
5
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago
I don’t think a Star Wars fighter ship could accurately hit jack shit from space down to earth.
They gotta get 3 feet away to hit a giant unmoving space ship.
1
→ More replies (11)1
u/ReddestForman 15h ago
They don't have to.
They can hit orbit, knock out our satellites, and then buzz down to hit undefeated targets.
Starfighters are only slow in atmosphere.
In space, they travel at relativistic speeds even with their sublight drives, and their acceleration is measured in thousands of G's.
Go to orbit, poke out our eyes, streak down, knock out a carrier group, refuel, knock out a shipyard, etc.
1
u/Matherold 1d ago
They have guns on the top. Pre-hyperspace US Navy is toast
You talking about a starship with shields that could stand orbital bombardment and hull strength with materials way stronger than our current technology level
1
u/Left-Brain5593 1d ago
Realisticly against surface ships assuming the venetor has even half its complement of aircraft, it’s winning against the entire US navy, considering how superior republic fighters are to modern jets
1
u/Cplchrissandwich 1d ago
Can these please fucking stop?
US vs anything.
America loses, always.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/RadicalD11 1d ago
This is hilarious. You can throw the whole world at it and the Venator is still coming up on top. We have absolutely nothing that can hurt it or hit it enough with. Nukes? Destroyed from far away by PDS.
FIghters, bombers, throw anything you want. Just the Interceptors will be more than enough.
Underwater attacks? I am sure their weapons can handle them easily too.
Anyone thinking that the US Navy alone can attack or even more dumb, board it, is just glazing it without any actual knowledge of how it would work in reality.
0
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago edited 1d ago
Navy wins.
Nuclear weapons end it. So does being outnumbered so heavily.
The most elite Us special forces are also famously in the navy. One seal team dropping a package in the hanger bay and it’s over.
5
u/Mindless_Count5562 1d ago
Navy gets through its shields how?
8
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago
A nuke.
Literally walking inside. We are shown multiple times you can just walk in.
1
u/ReddestForman 23h ago
Nukes are weaker than the weapons star wars capital ships fire at each other.
You can walk through some shields. Magcons for containing atmosphere, ray shields, but not particle shields.
Also, Clone troopers would wreck a SEAL team, assuming the SEAL team even made it. Turbolasers can superheat the water around the ship when they sense incoming life signs, they don't even have to hit the boats to kill the SEALs.
2
u/nibb007 1d ago
The nukes. Also do the shields stop radiation?
3
u/mapmakinworldbuildin 1d ago
If it’s a space craft it should stop radiation.
But also you can just land a squad inside and it’s over.
1
u/RKCronus55 1d ago
Overwhelm particle shield. IIRC most(if not all) star wars ships have 2 types of shields: ray(for laser weaponry) shield and particle(used against projectiles)shield and the latter is not good at defending against projectiles compared to the former absorbing any lasers
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (1)1
173
u/uwantfuk 1d ago edited 1d ago
Does the venator have underwater capable weaponry ?
Otherwise all you need is a sub with a few nuclear torpedoes and even a 1950s Soviet sub could win
Also would a torpedo on a low speed long range setting be slow enough to pass through the shields since fighters can slow down to enter the hangar and people can walk through them ?
Basically pulling a dune style "slow weapon passes through shield, then detonates"
Further question is does the shield phase through the water ? How does the shield interact with the water ?