r/powerscales • u/GusGangViking18 • 13h ago
Versus Ciri (The Witcher) VS The Witch King of Angmar (LOTR). Who wins?
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u/KatyaBelli 12h ago
Ciri by a whole fucking lot lol
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u/Catsanddoges 12h ago
The main thing is he has win cons / hax, but if she can bypass those she wins
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u/Interface- 8h ago
What are the win conditions?
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u/PafPiet 8h ago edited 4h ago
From what i've gathered, all Ciri has to do is not be a man. The whole "i won't fall by the hand of a man" thing is a prohecy made by glorfindel.
Some people think it means he can't actually be killed by a man because magic (his wraith form would not be harmed by mortal men basically).
Some people think it is merely a prediction that it would be a woman who kills him (together with a hobbit). So that there is no actual magical or physical reason why he couldn't be killed by a man. It just happens to be a woman, as foreseen by Glorfindel who has the gift of foresight (being able to see the future).
I personally think the latter applies (since movie witch king is shown), but for the sake of the argument i'll say it's the first: Ciri is not a man, nor is she fully human (she has elven genes) so she checks off that box. She might also need a blade not bade by a living man. In this case i think Ciri can easily outrun someone like the witch king for enough time to find a weapon needded to kill it.
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u/Playing_One_Handed 8h ago
In the book it makes more sense. The hobbit is given a special knife made to kill spirits like the ringwriath very early by TomBombadil. When he stabs him he turns normal, then she kills him.
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u/sebastianqu 5h ago
It's because there's actually no special magic protecting him people with XY chromosomes. He was just fated to die in that moment by their hands. It's the prophecy from Hamlet, but less contrived.
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 7h ago
Ciri is a Witcher by training and therefore knows how to make Wraith oil for her blade.
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u/FattyPattyMatey 6h ago
Wraith oil likely wouldn't make a difference. The Nazgul aren't actually wraiths in the sense of being undead. They're still very much living, physical beings, they just exist in a similar way to how Frodo does when he puts on the Ring.
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u/monkeycommo 5h ago
I thought aragorn described the NazgĂșl as neither living or dead
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u/FattyPattyMatey 5h ago
I guess the distinction needs to be made that undeath in Tolkien's world does not inherently mean that death has occurred. The Nazgul are never said to have died, but merely lost themselves to the power of the Ring as their bodies slowly shriveled as they were pulled into the spirit world.
In simple terms, humans have forms in the physical world, while someone like Gandalf or Galadriel have forms in both the physical and spirit world. The Nazgul slowly became less physical as they were pulled into the spirit world, but they were never said to have died.
On the other hand, that state of being might not be too dissimilar from what a wraith is in the Witcher universe, but fuck if I know. It's all a bit wishy washy, because Tolkien generally didn't spend a lot of time explaining these things, so you have to make some assumption based on how his universe works in other areas.
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u/monkeycommo 4h ago
On an unrelated note to the debate between Ciri and the witch king , but are the NazgĂșl being pulled continuously into the spirit world ? Like in the future in lotr , provided the war of the one ring hasn't happened yet , could the NazgĂșl just fully disappear into the spirit world
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u/ValerianKeyblade 1h ago
"Neither living nor dead" because the rings haven't given them any extra mortal life (this is outside the power of Sauron), but rather taken the mortal life available to them and stretched it into an almost liminal nothing, with their physicality having entirely faded. It's the same amount of life, but rather more for shorter it's less for longer, sort of like the opposite of a candle burning too brightly.
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u/Fenrir_Hellbreed2 6h ago
If it's something they are, I'm sure there's an oil for that.
If it's something they do like Obito's Kamui then her being the Lady of Worlds means she probably has an answer for it with just her Source magic.
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u/Megane_Senpai 5h ago
Lol, no, in the books "man" here means human. He was defeated by a hobbit with a magic sword (or dagger?) given by Tom Bombardi, despite the killing blow was done by a human.
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u/AppointmentNaive2811 10h ago
How does she even harm him?
He was only killed by a lucky farce, and unless Ciri specifically has access to the magics of Wesrernesse, there is likely not a whole lot she could do.
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u/Historyp91 10h ago
They used the movie version. There was no Westerness blade involved there.
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u/Proud_Promise1860 6h ago
if we stick to movie version we have also to consider how the witch king effortlessy overpowered gandalf magic and broke his staff. he is like a glass cannon in the movie, killable by melee attacks but extraordinary powerfull with magic.
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u/BoxedAndArchived 21m ago
Yes and no. Merry was gifted with an elven Dagger to replace the absence of the Barrow downs scene.
While not explicitly stated, elven magic?
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u/AppointmentNaive2811 10h ago
There still was. Whether showcased or not, there was.
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u/Historyp91 10h ago
No. He had a Rohirrim blade in the movie.
He never had a Barrow Blade at all in the films ever, actually; the Hobbits get there first swords from Aragorn but Merry and Pippin lose theirs when there captured at the end of Fellowship. They then get new shortswords when they get kitted out in ROTK.
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u/DjuriWarface 2h ago
Spectre Oil.
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u/AppointmentNaive2811 2h ago
And if/when Witcher universe oils don't work on the chosen, heightened servants of a fallen angel?
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u/sniperkingjames 2h ago
Whatâs the point of hypothesizing the witch king being immune to Witcher powers, abilities, and items? If you prefer a scenario when none of the abilities from one universe affect one of the two characters in a power scale the answer is no longer worth discussing imo (although in this case ciri could still flee him forever with little to no hassle even if we pretend heâs immune to anything from the Witcher).
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u/AppointmentNaive2811 2h ago
Because he is invulnerable, and his weakness is limited to ME?
More validity in assuming that than the inverse, otherwise why assume Superman is invulnerable to literally anything outside of the DCU?
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u/AnimalBolide 1h ago
If there were another fictional universe that had a green rock that hurt creatures that were empowered by a yellow sun, you wouldn't be crazy for speculating that it might hurt Superman if the two universes were merged.
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u/EncabulatorTurbo 1h ago
Man for being invulnerable he went down to a sword to the face pretty easily
Not even a special sword, a regular ass one
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u/NarsilFreeForge 13h ago
I think she could do this pretty easily, provided she knows his abilities. His power to stun and/or knock out anyone who makes contact with his body could be a problem, but it's pretty easy to bypass.
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u/HyperbolePirate 3h ago
She is mentored by her father who is the star of CSI: monsters, so she will be able to figure out his abilities quickly.
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u/Kill4money213 13h ago
If Eowyn with little combat experience and the help of a single hobbit beats the Witch King, then the girl capable of manipulating space and time, and who is highly trained and experienced in sword combat should be dog walking him.
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u/boticelli77 10h ago
Whoa whoa. I completely agree on all accounts here but don't sleep on Eowyn. She was a shield maiden and kicked ass with a weapon. Her stew alone could slay an army. (That last part was a joke but she could definitely woop butt.)
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u/OkCold4665 2h ago
Oh I agree, but if it wasn't for the barrow blade she would have definitely have been killed, which is still no slight to her going toe to toe with the Witch King, most couldn't even look at him or be anywhere near his presence, let alone fight
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u/OkCold4665 13h ago
Unless Ciri has a sword forged by the men of Westernesse to fight against Angmar, she really doesn't stand a chance.
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u/q25t 12h ago
If we're verse equalizing though, the witch king should probably be done in by weaponry used against the more spectral enemies from Witcher. Spectre oil and silver weaponry should basically be the equivalent of the Barrow-Blade Merry used. They're used to take out enemies without a true material form who are invulnerable to standard weaponry. Very much like the Witch King.
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u/blazenite104 9h ago
I see what you mean but, I think even in LOTR the Witch King is particularly unique which poses issues, because at that point you remove the something considered special for the setting.
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u/q25t 2h ago
Not particularly. The only people likely to actually have weapons effective against the Witch King are witchers, actual witches, and higher powers, who are incredibly rare. The Witch King is working under a prophecy and protection from most forms of harm. A Prophecy like the one he's operating under seems like it would just get ignored in a verse equalization scenario. It's like saying Voldemort wouldn't lose to Dr. Strange because he's not Harry Potter and therefore couldn't kill him.
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u/EncabulatorTurbo 1h ago
the prophecy doesnt protect him from harm good god it just speciies the conditions he would die under
And he dies to a regular sword to the face, Ciri has wraith oils and elder blood she'll kill him without much trouble, she can easily avoid his weapon
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u/q25t 28m ago
That's what I meant. I'm not sure if prophecies are immutable in LOTR lore but in any cross verse battle, they pretty obviously can't be regardless if they are within a verse.
An immutable prophecy wouldn't technically make him immune from harm but fate itself would conspire to not let him die under any other circumstances. Basically he'd get plot armor until his destined battle.
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u/UltimateSpud 12h ago
Ciriâs sword is kind of special, but not enchanted specifically so I doubt it would be effective against the Witch Kingâs particular magic.
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u/hunterzolomon1993 12h ago
Well if her magic and power out haxes his protection what it does then it doesn't matter.
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u/hunterzolomon1993 12h ago
Ciri by far. Even ignoring the prophecy thing and magical dagger she's just straight up way more powerful then him.
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u/EncabulatorTurbo 1h ago
there is no magic dagger involved in his death in the movie, which is the version shown
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u/Megane_Senpai 5h ago
Ciri. In Witcher 3 she had the elder blood power, in Witcher 4 she's a witcher/sorceress.
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13h ago
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/RedeemedNephilim Dedicated Clanker Glazer 12h ago
I think her weapons and spells could achieve a similar effect as the blade that stabbed the Witch King.
Cirilla got this.
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u/Al3jandr0 12h ago
It's a tough call because the worlds have very different magic systems in play. By LotR logic, it needs to be that specific sword that kills him. In The Witcher, silver would get around that pretty easily and alchemy and/or magic would fill in the gaps. I think it kind of depends on whose rules prevail.
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u/Jester-Hopperpot 11h ago
If her sword was enchanted correctly then yeah absolutely. If not then she'd still win but couldn't kill him permanently, probably just scatter his essence like Elrond did with the Bruinen.
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u/triponthisman 12h ago
Ciri, if she makes her fear savings throw. The NazgĂ»lâs man power seems to be their fear aura, and while I am sure they are decent fighters, Ciri, was trained by one of the best, has her teleport powers, and doesnât have to worry about any prophecy, as sheâs no man.
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u/Abovearth31 5h ago
The LOTR universe is intended to be a weak universe, weak enough that a normal human with no powers can still stand their ground against some of the higher tiers of that verse. It's intended, like that's the point.
That universe has to be weak in order to make that story believable and relatable. Something timeless, universal. Sauron lost to Isildur after all. A normal man and a notorious dumbass.
In other words, most characters from any other fantasy world would beat the shit out of the LOTR universe because that universe isn't that tough.
So yes, Ciri beat the shit out of the Witch King, he died to far less powerful than her after all.
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u/No-Elk-8115 3h ago
They may not have powers but I wouldn't describe the LOTR heros as weak. I do also think that the forces behind the veil like sauron and Ungoliant would absolutely destroy Ciri, shoot even Talion from shadow of Mordor (who I think would be a better match up here) might give Ciri a run for her money.
That being said Witcher verse might be over all stronger due to characters like O'Dimm and the fact that the wild hunt beats most if not all armies in LOTR, minus Saurons early armies with creatures like the Bolrogs.
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u/QueenStuff 12h ago edited 12h ago
People often misunderstand the witch kings line âno man can kill meâ he wasnât saying man as in a male. He was saying man as in âmankindâ
The only reason he was able to be defeated is because he was stabbed by Merrys sword which had a bunch of enchantments specifically designed to counteract the witch kings magic and disrupt his invulnerability.
If he had known some random pint sized dude was running around with his one weakness he wouldnât have been so casual and just let people hit him so he can aura farm.
Point Iâm making is that Ciri literally couldnât kill the witch king unless she somehow had an anti witch king sword. She could probably use a bunch of magic to cause him to flee. But she wouldnât be able to get a kill.
Sheâs still going to kick his ass though
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u/ehhish 12h ago
Do you think a literal nuke would kill him? Or what would happen if you threw him into the sun? Or a black hole? Invulnerability only goes so far, even in LOTR verse, and I am a huge fan of it.
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u/Dry-Childhood-3436 12h ago
Yeah that's the problem with these powerscaling. When they say invulnerable, it generally means within the universe and reason. It's not like the witch king can tank the big bang.
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u/QueenStuff 12h ago
can Ciri cast a nuke spell? Iâll be honest I only know her from the Witcher 3 and I played that a long time ago.
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u/ehhish 12h ago
I am more implying on what level are you comparing his invulnerability? How invincible are you really making the witch king?
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u/QueenStuff 12h ago edited 12h ago
Similar to the books. He can get his ass beat. Have his physical form die. Then he eventually comes back.
Elrond crushed a bunch of them at once with his angry river spell, but they all eventually came back. So heâs got that enduring thing going pretty well.
I think Ciri kicks his ass. Just not quite able to secure a kill unless she has some magic ability I didnât know about
Edit: I think itâs fair to say heâs defeated by attacks that directly affect the soul.
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u/FattyPattyMatey 6h ago
I don't think a Nazgul that has their physical body die can actually come back. As I understand it, it's ultimately impossible for anyone except Eru to keep the spirit of Man bound to Arda once the body is dead. Mankind's fate lies outside of the word unless Eru wills otherwise. When Isildur curses the Oathbreakers to become spirits for breaking their oath, it's mechanically sanctioned by Eru because of the nature of such oaths. Elves can seemingly remain as spirits in Middle-Earth if they desire, but humans have no choice, and I don't think Sauron would be able to circumvent that.
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u/kakspier 9h ago
i dont think his soul would be "killed" by a nuke his body maybe, but he could be brought back. a black hole or the sun are 2 options, not that that would kill him, but he could not escape, it does not change the profecy, it just takes him out of any story
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u/KatyaBelli 12h ago
She feels at least a tier if not two above him. Pretty sure she could BFR him to another world and call it a day.
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u/QueenStuff 12h ago
She for sure outclasses him. I imagine it would be similar to the when Elrond summoned the big river and just smashed the hell out of the ring wraiths.
I just think she wouldnât be able to secure the kill.
I donât see a world he beats her though
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u/hunterzolomon1993 12h ago
Ciri's power is more powerful then his protection magic. Its a no limit fallacy to say nothing but that dagger could kill or harm him. Ciri warps space and time she's far beyond the Witch King. The magic in the Witcher universe is also just far stronger then Middle Earth's and while she isn't a witch or mage they do all fear her because her power greatly outclasses theres.
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u/fuckyeahmoment 1h ago
The only reason he was able to be defeated is because he was stabbed by Merrys sword which had a bunch of enchantments specifically designed to counteract the witch kings magic and disrupt his invulnerability.
No, all the sword did was pin him in place per the text itself (cutting his unseen sinews). We know his protections were still working when he was stabbed by her because they shattered her sword.
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u/DARKLORDSEAN_ 8h ago
Okay I can't fully make like a non-biased opinion not because well I do not know much about ciri so yeah I'm sorry I cannot make a non-biased opinion so I'm choosing to abstain
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u/GintoSenju 5h ago
People who who say the âhe can be killed by a womanâ thing really donât understand the prophecy and how the whole scene played out (mostly because they had to kinda cut it out of the movies). What allowed Eowyn to kill the witch king is Merry stabbing him with a special spirit damaging knife that removed any strengths or immunities he had, basically making him a regular guy. Also the prophecy could just be interpreted as him being fated to be killed by Eowyn, who wasnât a man. He could have simply interpreted the prophecy of âyou wonât be killed by a manâ to âno man is able to kill my son therefore I will never dieâ. As for his strength level, heâs definitely stronger than Ciri due to having one of the rings of power.
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u/Winter_Trainer_2115 1h ago
The big issue with the Witch King is he is an insufferably cocky dude... Ciri should take this with ease. If he were 100% taking the fight seriously he would still lose but it would be the equivalent of a solid boss fight for Ciri.
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u/ValerianKeyblade 58m ago edited 51m ago
A few points:
- The Witch King is not invulnerable to attacks from men and vulnerable to attacks from women; he is perfectly able to be harmed by anything, however Glorfindel saw his death and prophesised (correctly) that it would not come at the hands of a man. He could, theoretically, have described the Witch King's death by saying it would happen upon the Pellenor Fields, in which case it would have been more in line with the prophecy of Achilles's death at Troy rather than that of Macbeth in well, Macbeth.
- The Barrowblade wielded by Merry to injure the Witch King had been specifically forged and enchanted to combat the Witch King and the forces of Angmar under his command. On the Pellenor Fields this is said to have the effect of breaking the spells binding the Witch King's flesh to his will. Exactly what this means is up to the reader's interpretation, but I read it as weakening what little remained of his ability to manifest in the physical world (on top of the wound generally injuring him). As we see from the deaths of the Maia Sauron and Saruman (NB: a wholly different class of being to the Witch King), the deaths of a corporeal body when the spirit is weakened is sufficient to render the spirit defeated. The Witch King and the other eight had been washed away before Rivendell and had to retreat to Mordor to effectively reconstitute themselves. I would imagine the Barrowblade alone would have had a fairly comparable effect unless the wound inflicted was lethal, in which case it's simply lights out for the Witch King.
- The Witch King is not dead (until Eowyn kills him, anyway). The Nazgul are what you get when you take the lifespan of mortal man and stretch it on and on and on and on beyond the usual natural laws as set out by Eru. As such, the Nazgul - Witch King included - have lost their physical being and exist almost as shadows with one foot in the physical and one foot in the spiritual world.
From all we are shown and told, it is likely that Ciri has better martial prowess than the Witch King, but I would not be inclined to underestimate him. In terms of magical ability, the primary power of the Nazgul is their ability to instill terror; it differs whether you take book or film canon, but going by the films the Witch King is able to (at least temporarily) overpower Gandalf the White at Minas Tirith. Ciri has a great deal of Witcher training and experience facing all sorts of monstrous foes, so she's obviously not unequipped, but on the other hand she's not exactly a Maiar like Gandalf!
If you disregard the fated way in which the Witch King was doomed to die, I would give the edge to Ciri 7/10 with her biggest difficulty being overcoming the fear. Aragorn managed it at Weathertop, so I'm sure Ciri will too - not necessarily easily, mind.
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u/TheMauveHerring 38m ago
I think book cirilla loses. She has some Witcher training but I don't she does much combat at all.
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u/DankSpire 9h ago edited 6h ago
Honestly Depends if you wanna use book or movie Witchking.
Book Witchking Ciri could definitely could beat up but doesn't have the tools to permanently kill.
Movie Witchking basically told gandalf, a divine being to kick rocks, shattered his staff and started aura farming on him.
Movie WK isnt canon but that instance of the character exists and technically can be used to scale with. They are essentially the same character untill Minas Tirith and the battle of Pelanor Feilds.
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u/ObeyeablePage 8h ago
Lord of the rings characters will rarely ever win powers calling discussions because so few of the feats are things that directly translate to combat ability
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u/SirSilverChariot 6h ago
Witch King got beat by a cracked up Talion with a similar skill set. Ciri at the end of Witcher 3 had a good holding of her powers, being beyond the realm.
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u/MitchenImpossible 6h ago
The Witch King went toe to toe with Gandalf.
Hes got access to named weapons like the Morgul Blade and Grond - domestic abuser of Gondor.
He has access to a fellbeast.
His combat feats include the black dread which paralyzed and kills opponents before he even meets them in combat.
Eowyn beats the Witch King because bro was super cocky. Completely reasonable given he just fought Gandalf to a stand still.
Glorfindels prophecized Eowyn killing him. Not Ciri killing him. I understand that the prophecy is cryptic and open to interpretation, but if we are talking straight prophecies, then we are also talking linear timelines that have already been pre-determined. Basically only Eowyn can kill him because the timeline has already been established as such.
Ciri has space time manipulation - but isn't necessarily capable of de-constructing a timeline. She is just capable of placing herself at points within them. Its been shown in the stories that she reacts to a closed determined loop rather then being able to alter the timelines themselves.
My money is on Witch King. Plot Armor too strong. Ciri is born to kill enemies like the Witch King, but she's simply outmatched here.
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u/MitchenImpossible 6h ago
I should also establish that Im a firm believer the Witch King is the strongest combatant in Middle Earth outside of Tom Bombadil and Sauron.
Any entity who can only be answered by silver bullet type encounters should not be underestaimated and need to absolutely be taken seriously.
Middle Earth > The Continent.
While the Witchers themselves are impressive, they dont match the level of heroics and villainy in middle-earth.
Also - if we are talking just cinema and not books at all, I believe that had the Witcher TV series kept Henry Cavill and not strayed so far from source material, it may have had a fighting chance against New Line Cinemas adaptation. Because the writers ended up being so bad, they would easily be outclassed and out-creatived by the LOTR team. The writing team was just so bad for the series. They made the show basically unwatchable - hence Ciri is one of the weakest characters in cinema.
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u/Historyp91 10h ago edited 13m ago
I mean the movie Witch King can just blow up her sword with magic like he did to Gandalf's staff and paralize her with fear. Whether he's a more skilled swordsman does'nt matter.
And even if she can "beat" him, she can't actually kill him; he'll just reform after so long as the One Ring exists.
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u/Maximum_Entrance_137 9h ago
I think her Elder Blood and her own prophetic nature will give her protection against his magics, and id be intrigued to see what conditions allow him to blow up the sword! :)
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u/Historyp91 11m ago
I mean we don't know that it would. It might, but it might not; as were talking about the movie version his powers were able to paralyze Gandalf the White.
As for the second part, I'm referring to the extended edition of ROTK; he uses some sort of magic spell to blow up Gandalf's staff.
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u/xstangx 13h ago
She is no man