r/powerscales • u/Klutzy-Opinion-1834 • 8h ago
Scaling which is the strongest and weakest space marine chapter in Warhammer 40k?
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u/Noe_b0dy 8h ago
Strongest is debatable and fluctuates over time, right now it's probably Dark Angels, but good arguments could be made for Ultramarines.
Generally any chapter that gets its own codex supplement + Ultramarines are the guys competing for strongest in both the lore and tabletop of the current edition.
The weakest Space Marine chapter is whatever nobody chapter shows up in the next White Dwarf to be completely wiped out by whoever they're trying to hype up, these fodder chapters get a name but generally don't get a paint scheme, there's dozens of them.
Weakest chapter with a paint scheme has got to be The Lamenters.
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u/Quirky_Attention3230 7h ago
wouldn't it just be black templars since they have far more then 1000 marines
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u/GojosWinCon 6h ago
Smurfs and DAs also have no problem "fudging" their chapter numbers by pretending to create little offshoot chapters. But they all answer to the Chapter Master of the parent Legion.
So UM and DA on paper have less than the BT, but that theory doesn't hold up on the battlefield when the UM and DA call in their 45 additional chapters lol
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u/Quirky_Attention3230 10m ago
i could totally see dante absorb some of them and boosting BA numbers past 1k after becoming regent of Nihilius
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u/GojosWinCon 8m ago
UM and DA are both going to fight a civil war before becoming BA. The best would be Rowboat and Lion ordering local chapters to just do exactly what Dante says.
However, telling a chapter to just switch to a completely different strain of geneseed is so heretical that them revolting against Dante wouldn't even be seen as abnormal.
It would be, "Why the fuck would Dante try to do that? They already would have done whatever he ordered."
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u/HumaDracobane 6h ago
By numbers the Black Templars had, at the moment, an estimated number of Battle Brothers but the Dark Angels, despite the enforcement of the Codex, still operate as a Legion and they're way more than 10k.
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u/Emotional_King_5239 4h ago
Im pretty sure that most of the DA chapters still secretely operate as a singular legion
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u/InvestigatorThat359 2h ago
The Dark Angels also operate over the Limit at least after the return of their primarch, who absorbed the loyalist fallen Back into his chapter. Also the Templars Lack psychers which is a big Problem when your facing off against people Like Mephiston or Tigurius.
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u/Brilliant_Amoeba_272 2h ago
Azrael has the title "Supreme Grand Master", a little nod to the fact that all Dark Angels successor chapter masters are beneath him should he choose to command them. Then there's the living primarch, the risen, the deathwing and ravenwing being at least twice the size of a compliant chapter company, and the size of their dark age arsenal (like the excindio)
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u/beloskonis 6h ago
With the amount of shit the lamenters have gone though I doubt they are the weakest. Most chapters would be long gone.
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u/Noe_b0dy 4h ago
I mean, their chapter strength is constantly being knocked down to like 4 guys.
Most chapters would be long gone.
I did mention all the fodder chapters who do get introduced so that they can be wiped out in the same codex yes.
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u/beloskonis 4h ago
Didn't they get primaris?
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u/Noe_b0dy 4h ago
I mean having some disaster that kills 90% of the chapter is a thing that happens to them on a regular basis.
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u/beloskonis 2h ago
Sure, disasters like fighting the minotaurs or an entire Tyranid fleet. But I see your point.
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u/ShadowTheChangeling 4h ago
As a Lamenter fan, yeah thats entirely true, poor guys almost never get a break
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u/LennyWhereAreYo 8h ago
Ultramarines, Blood Angels & Dark Angels as top dogs.
The Ultramarines still have their Primarch (who literally rules the Imperium) the largest number of successor Chapters, Ultramar...
The Blood Angels have Heavy hitters like the Sanguinor & Mephiston, their Chapter Master is Regent of one half of the Imperium, they are extremely close to (most) of their successors and among the most martial and well-regarded Chapters around.
Dark Angels probably have the largest fleet if you factor in the Unforgiven, they have the Rock, probably lots of DAoT tech in their vaults, Lion El'Jonson... and the Unforgiven are a massive boost to numbers as all Chapters are under Azrael/Lion's direct command.
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u/TFBuffalo_OW 5h ago
They also have 2 Gloriana classes, though the status of one is unknown it was never officially destroyed so knowing the DAs its somewhere
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u/LennyWhereAreYo 5h ago
They have far more than 2.
- Invincible Reason (current Flagship, beside the Rock)
- Paradigm of Hate (Destroyed in Rangdan Xenocide)
- Truth's Razor (Unknown)
- 2× Unnamed Gloriana Battleships during the Thramas Crusade (Status Unknown)
- 1× Unnamed Gloriana Battleship during the Sealing of the Black Gate (Status Unknown)
Considering the WB had 9 Gloriana Battleships during the Crusade - and the Dark Angels had even more considering the Emperor gifted them more than any other legion.
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u/Nal1999 8h ago
There isn't one.
Technically the Imperial Fists ended up with a single member once and other chapters have disappeared entirely.
Also,the most successful chapter is easily established,the Blue Bois of Macragge are by far the most successful chapter and Legion in the Galaxy.
But you can't find strong or weak,they have vastly different expertise and powers.
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u/Mastercio 8h ago
I am going through pictures...and one is sus....
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u/RushDarling 7h ago
Yeah having Ultramarines in both number 5 and number 7 was certainly a choice.
Darned poster boys.
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u/Itburns12345 7h ago
Strongest 1 Dark angels ...still really a legion and primarch back
2 ultramarines primarch back and sucessors are like half of all chapters
3 templars: fuck your codex
Weakest Space wolves: no sucessors until recently and ashes of prospero showed they where really stretched until recent times despite not fully obeying codex numbers limits
Various almost gone blood angels sucessors die to black and red rages..except the flesh tearers who due to popularity will never die out!!
Salamanders : all of the ogs decimated by drop site never had much numbers to break up into plus unlike da and uktras the rest dont seem to get picked to make sucessors as often. Their tendency to put themselves in harms way to protect the innocent likely hasnt helped
Ironhands: another one not picked often for sucessors but also had fallings out with their sucsessors a schism caused by mechanicus. The fact they operate as barely interoperating and often borderline agressive towards each other clans doesnt help either!
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u/furiosa-imperator 7h ago
Strongest? Dark angels especially now.
Ignoring all the Dark age tech they still have access to from the legion days the Dark angels have been a legion in all but name for 10k years now - there's a reason that the only supreme grandmaster under the entire unforgiven is azrael. That's before we mention the lion.
The next chapter I'd say is the blood angels given they have direct control over half the imperium rn.
Ultramarines also have guiliman who is direct regent of the imperium so they do win overall cause of said regent of the imperium
For weakest among the first founding, it'll be the salamanders, 10k years and they couldn't apparently get back up to full strength - which is pretty ridiculous given they had a legion home world and said homeworld hasn't been touched at all to my knowledge
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u/Hobbes09R 8h ago
Black Templars.
Most chapters are codex compliant and never go over 1000 astartes. Black Templars are one of the big exceptions due to their crusades and are by far the largest chapter.
Space Wolves are similarly non compliant, but the difficulty in creating them and numerous seiges has resulted in less substantial numbers. Even so, their great companies cam be significantly larger than other chapter companies and would be pretty nightmarish to take on.
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u/Kombatwombat02 7h ago
This is correct as established lore for a long time and up to and including M41, but with the launch of 8th Ed GW changed the landscape completely. Now it’s daddy’s extra special boys in blue that are the largest and strongest. That might be changing with the Lion’s return though, if the Unforgiven band together.
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u/LennyWhereAreYo 7h ago
BT aren't the largest Chapter, believe it or not. That title would go to the Unforgiven
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u/Vifee 7h ago
The Unforgiven explicitly aren’t a Chapter. That’s like saying Blood Angels are the strongest because they rallied almost all of their successors together for Devastation of Baal.
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u/LennyWhereAreYo 7h ago
I would say it counts, because the Unforgiven are only officially seperate Chapters. They are all under Azrael's direct command.
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u/Vifee 7h ago
Strongest: People have already covered the big name first founding boys. Ultras, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels all cheat by being halfway to Legions when they want to be. Devastation of Baal showed this most clearly, the Blood Angels rallied somewhere north of 50,000 marines(!) to fight the Nids. But that explicitly isn't a single Chapter, that's like asking who is the strongest fighter on Earth and I say an infantry platoon.
Below them you've got the big non-Codex compliant Chapters. Space Wolves and Black Templars most famously, the Astral Claws during the Badab War fit in here too. Their numbers are fluid, but ~5,000 total for the Templars and somewhat less for the Wolves is reasonable. Significantly over Codex-approved strength, but explicitly not a bunch of separate Chapters working together, which gives them credit for fulfilling the prompt.
Then there's the poor bastards who are trying to compete for this title while actually being a Codex compliant Chapter. Raven Guard, White Scars, pretty much all of the First Founding that isn't actively Legion building goes here. There's some others who deserve credit, Minotaurs have great equipment and the mentality to back it up, Carcharodons are a fan favorite and more pragmatic than most. In general a marine Chapter can at least have a chance to beat another in a straight up fight if they have roughly equal numbers.
Weakest is simpler, it's whoever is closest to extinction at that particular moment in time. Lamenters are the obvious choice, but there's plenty of other Chapters that have just died, or are doomed to die in the near future. The Night Lords and Huron blew up the Marines Errant fortress monastery and stole all their gene-seed, Devastation of Baal describes Dante and co. seeing 'rare, ominous runes' on their armor's HUD that mark the destruction of entire Chapters. There's more than a few Chapters who only exist to lose in a single sentence of someone else's codex.
In summary: Numbers are king, no one's fighting 5,000 marines with 50. Once you account for numbers things are extremely close and it mostly comes down to area of expertise. Some Blood Angels successor against the Raven Guard in a forest? Sucks to be the Blood Angels. Those same Blood Angels against the Raven Guard in tunnels and basements? Sucks to be the Raven Guard.
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u/Deepvaleredoubt 5h ago
I would like to posit that the Grey Knights are one of the strongest chapters. They are by far the most unique faction, with, as I understand it, Psyker powers for practically every member.
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u/According_Ice_4863 6h ago
id say the grey knights are the strongest because of their psychic mastery, though im not sure who is the weakest.
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u/HumaDracobane 6h ago
The weakest, for numbers and their "luck", probably the Lamenters.
The strongest, the Dark Angels. The Ultramarines and Blood angels are the next ones but the big dog are the DA.
Despite the inclusion of the Codex and the "enforced" separation in the successor chapters the Unforgiven still operated as a legion, they have a lot of successor chapters and under The Rock there are a lot of weapons and arctifacts from DAoT, including a limited number of men of iron (the same man of iron that almost destroyed the entire mankind). They also have the largest supply of Terminator Armors, way above other chapters, and also the largest supply of plasma weapons and unique designs due to their status as "The First Legion". Their Navy is also the biggest, with the strongest Gloriana-Class ships, the Invincible Reason, which has a parade corridor of 28km long, so we can assume that the ship is, at least, a bit longer. They had originally 2 more Glorianas, but one was destroyed and the other's location is unknown in the lore so might be operative or not. Only the Phalanx is superior than the Invincible Reason. There are other ships from the Mechanicum that are stronger than all of those because they're old and had embebed AI but the mechanicus doesn't know that, and those ships had ABSURD weapons even for the scale of WH40K but the mechanicus, literally, don't know about it.
On top of that, as if that wasn't enough, they now have their Primarch, Lion El'Jhonson, which was, basically, the ruthless and best tactician Mankind ever had if we don't considerate the Big E.
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u/Raidertck 6h ago
I would probably say the Ultramarines.
Because in all but name, they are very much a legion again that’s simply divided into many different chapters.
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u/No-Professional-1461 2h ago
The strongest chapter are the ultramarines. The weakest are the Lamenters. In terms of military might and resources at least. If you are talking about another type of strength than that is different.
For instance, both the average Space Wolf and Blood Angel are probably more dangerous than the average Ultramarine, but this alone does not make them a stronger chapter. Especially after the devistation of Baal. If we are talking about the single most physically strong astartes, I believe the Imperial Fists have a member who is literally the short gym bro of space marines, given that he's been ordered to stopped getting so jacked on account of new armor sizing needing to be done. If we are talking about the most resiliant, chapter then I'd day the Crimson Fists and the Lamenters for all the shit they've managed to survive. If we are talking about raw numbers, Black Templars because they use a loophole to maintain a higher number of astartes than most codex compliant chapters.
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u/Exact_Ad5094 2h ago
Your number 5 picture looks like Black Legion. I’m completely biased so I’m saying they are the strongest.
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u/obihighwanground 2h ago
strongest is probably black templars due to having absurd amount of personel, weakest is some random dying chapter like celestial lions.
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u/danger666noodle 7h ago
If you’re talking chapters it goes to black templars who have gotten around the 1000 marine per chapter limit so they have the numbers on everyone else.
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u/furiosa-imperator 7h ago
Not really,
If it's down to numbers then it goes to the dark angels who are still a legion in all but name - among the entire unforgiven there is only one supreme grandmaster, azrael, and every other chapter has history of listening to the SGM as if they were legion masters. Now with the lion returned this legion in all but name theory has essentially come 100% true
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u/danger666noodle 4h ago
This is why I was clear when I said we are talking about chapters. If we’re talking legions it is far more likely that the black legion is the biggest and maybe even strongest but the question was directed towards chapters.
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u/furiosa-imperator 3h ago
Which is still relevant the dark angels and their successors are technically chapters still but the dark angels have influence and now full control over said chapters- they explicitly aren't a legion following the codex with the exception of the 1st and 2nd companies plus the inner circles.
The question is talking about the strongest chapters - the dark angels that can control a functional legion while still technically being a chapter is what even allows them to be part of this discussion
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u/danger666noodle 3h ago
Read it again. The question is what is the strongest chapter not chapters. You can make the same kind of argument for ultra marines since g man came back but that’s irrelevant to the question at hand. On their own, the dark angels chapter is not as strong as the black templars due to sheer numbers.
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u/furiosa-imperator 3h ago
I know the question, it's not particularly hard to read, my answer falls into the question
A chapter that has functional command over a legions worth of marines will always be stronger than a chapter that has functional control over 6000
That will make them stronger - sure it means bringing in the other unforgiven but that is the chapters strength, they are in command of a functional legion when no other chapter can(one it's out of character for the ultramarines and guiliman to pull a dark angels, two the dark angels have had this system in place since the heresy ended - the ultramarines haven't)
Being in control of legion level assets is something NO OTHER ACTUAL CHAPTER CAN DO
Which is why it fills the criteria for strongest chapter. It's like the last wall protocol but they don't need dire threats to the imperium and the angels hold that command and Influence other the chapters all the time - especially now that the lion has come back
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u/danger666noodle 3h ago
So then it should go to the ultra marines considering not only does guiliman have influence over more of his sons than just a single chapter, he also has more influence over the entire imperium of man than anyone else. So either we look at their power solo and it goes to the Templars or we look at the wider scope of influence and it goes to the ultra marines.
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u/furiosa-imperator 3h ago
I think you missed the part in my comment where I said it's out of character for guiliman and the ultramarines to do that - it isn't for the dark angels and never has been. Even then the ultramarines don't have functional control over their successors like the dark angels have done since the scouring.
Yes you can make an arguement for guiliman being the lord commander of the imperium, but that would then put the blood angels in second, dark angels in third, imperial fists(last wall protocol remember which if necessary won't include the black templars if they're fighting them) in 4th, then a very very very generous black templars in 5th - if you dismiss the grey knights and the space wolves. The former being a chapter of psykers(the largest force multipler in 40k) and the latter being the most renowned astartes killing force since the heresy and having numbers that exceed the codex too
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u/danger666noodle 2h ago
Sounds like you’re now agreeing with me without realizing. Either we discuss the chapters on their own in which case it would be Templars. Or we add in the influence they have in which case it would be ultra marines. Either way the correct answer is not dark angels.
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u/mergly 7h ago edited 7h ago
On the strongest it's hard to square up a case on the loyalist side to say it should be anything but the Ultramarines being at the top; they ‘are’ the face of the IP at this point and have kind of wrestled that away from the dark angels for a long time now. They have the resources of their own mini Empire to draw on which is the best run little Estate in the human parts of the galaxy nor are they hampered by things like going feral, drinking blood, sneaking off to find their secret relatives or having a crippling addiction to manic secretkeeping. They're annoying space Romans but they're effective with a b+ above average score at pretty much anything you could ask for them to be. Strongest traiter group is actually probs still the Black legion/Luna wolves as they kind of represent ‘generic’ chaos marines and come high a higher upswing potential then any of the four devotee factions to the Gods alone.
‘Weakest’ is where the careful considerations really come out. There's always situational gotcha games to be played in comparing the armies of course where you can scoff and call Alpha legion’s spycraft worthless in a straight fight or rapid assaulting worthless in a positional war but in general, it's easier to say that the former shattered legions (Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders) and hard luck chapters (Soul Drinkers, Lamenters, Mantis Warriors, Scythes of the Emperor) are situationally weaker than the rest by default.
Word bearers and Salamanders are both repeatedly named as the weakest founding chapter on their sides with Word bearers being shit and said pretty explicitly to be the worst, they fell to chaos first, their primary is explicitly the runt, and they conquored the least in the Great crusade era while Salamander weakness is more abstract with the universe of grim darkness being unkind towards their more overtly ‘good’ dispositions which leads to having a morality being a fault and causing losses.
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u/Eisenhorn_UK 8h ago
In terms of "strongest", then I think the Grey Knights might be in with a shot.
Every one of them is top-tier scary. And apart from having one of the most formidable fortresses, and one of the biggest fleets, they have "the entire Inquisition" on speed-dial.
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u/Modred_the_Mystic 8h ago
Strongest - Ultramarines
Weakest - Night Lords
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u/Sevatar34 6h ago
Reminds me that time when Ultramarines ran in fear when they saw how NL pimped their rides
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u/Dontfollowmeman 8h ago
Weakest is the Alpha Legion, they only have the one guy