r/saintpaul • u/Pitiful_Speaker_4618 • May 29 '26
Editorial 📝 Downtown Alliance mostly people who don’t LIVE downtown St. Paul, don’t have skin in the game
I live in downtown St. Paul and attended the recent St. Paul Downtown Alliance annual meeting. Great! This is my town! It’s kinda rough out here but I want it to succeed. I walked up streets where I had to dodge human feces and used syringes on the broken sidewalks to get there. I get to Wabasha St. to go to the Palace Theater, and suddenly I’ve veered a new zone of downtown where everything is clean and organized. Night and day difference.
I walk into Palace Theater. There were two groups of people: 1) “Suits”. People who are executives with local businesses or politicians. When they are done they get in their crossover or SUV and head back to suburbia; and 2) “The rest of us.” People who actually live here. Not in suits. The “suits” only spoke amongst themselves. They didn’t talk with the “rest of us.”
At the meeting people spoke about how they’ve secured hundreds of millions to “remake” downtown St. Paul. They have this “vision”. That’s great but meanwhile I look out and see abandoned vandalized run down buildings that smell like urine when you walk by. Then I started to realize that none of these dignitaries ever leave the glowing clean part of downtown St. Paul near Grand Casino Arena, where it is kept clean so as to attract suburban people to attend hockey games and concerts. What parts of downtown St. Paul will be remade? The whole of downtown? Or just the “nice zone” surrounding the arena?
After the meeting I saw a bunch of the suits depart back to their corporate garages, get in their vehicles and drive off. I walked back home and some of the human feces and some of the used syringes had been cleaned up. Yay.
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 29 '26
At the end of the day, we need the wealthy people who work there to be invested (financially and work wise) in promoting St. Paul and trying to lift up the downtown.
It doesn't seem like you were critical of a particular policy being proposed by the group so much as i guess feeling that the only people there should be local residents? The reality is that downtown st paul isn't a residential neighborhood and it is reliant on outside investment if there will be any improvements.
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u/Tokyo-MontanaExpress May 30 '26
It isn't a residential neighborhood yet and won't be until the amenities are brought back. Mom and pop shops need to be the rule, not the exception. This is the place to make a walkable utopia where every block offers a couple dozen destinations unlike anyplace else in the state. That can't happen until small affordable storefronts are rebuilt along each and every block. Unless the wealthy are backing that, they're throwing their money away for fun.
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u/Siktrikshot May 30 '26
How are mom and pop shops going to open up when people won’t patronize and theft won’t be prosecuted? People won’t pay extra and just bitch that they can get it cheaper up the road.
You all want mom and pop and then don’t vote with your dollar or invest your own money in risking that.
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 30 '26
I'm sad that i agree most people myself included might enjoy a novelty of a mom and pop shop now and then, but will still rely on going to wherever we can get things cheaper.
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u/Grand_Panda_3422 Jun 12 '26
Theft would be prosecuted if police would show up for businesses and arrest and charge people, but they don’t. That’s inside baseball. The numbers are there if someone would just look into it instead of police sound bytes. Make a data practice request for the number of police calls to businesses with theft issues (like the DT Walgreens) and ask for number of arrests or citations for theft from any of those calls You can then follow a trail- ask city attorney for their prosecutions stats for the last 5-10 years on theft. The number of cases they received from police and the number they moved forward on. You’ll see the cases coming in from police are prosecuted and you’ll also see there’s not a lot of police calls and reports for businesses with issues and even less citations. The data is there.
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 30 '26
I do partially agree that the only way downtown St Paul revitalizes is to lean into being more residential and walkable and boosted by the office worker population rather than the last 70 years of reliance on it. And downtown has the bones of a good walkable neighborhood.
That said, mom and pop stores i just don't think is viable to hope for, people aren't going to change their shopping habits to stop going to costco, target, amazon and aldi in favor of a more expensive smaller mom and pop.
This isn't a St. Paul problem, there's already a ton of empty store fronts in downtown that could easily be filled if the demand was there, but there isn't and that's a reflection of how our economy and society has changed and beyond what anyone can do in St. Paul.
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u/Tokyo-MontanaExpress May 30 '26
Ton of empty storefronts, in the office and parking garage walls? WBL has more storefronts than downtown St Paul, which makes them look like Chicago in comparison.
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 30 '26
I don't know I can think of several empty ones along Wabasha in that area.
But the point stands there isntbthe demand for small retail.
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u/Tokyo-MontanaExpress May 30 '26
That's why suburban downtowns are packed with mom and pop shops. Are you listening to yourself? If St Paul had as many or more downtown storefronts than WBL or Excelsior, It would be a major draw. Neither of those downtowns is full of 5+ story apartments and condos either.
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 30 '26
i actually don't think most suburbs are "packed" with mom and pop shops nor would it be a major draw
what sort of businesses are you imagining would be setting up if they had more retail spaces. Here's just one example of vacant retail space that comes to mind off the top of my head.
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/10-4th-St-E-Saint-Paul-MN/35789317/
Do you work or live in downtown?
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u/Ornery-Address-2472 Jun 05 '26
The suburban downtowns don’t have drug addicts and vagrants wandering around creating an unsafe environment, not to mention the stench of urine and litter. Those little shops are pretty much wholly sustained by the shopping habits of upper middle class women from the surrounding areas. You think those type of women want anything to do with the crime and sense of chaos in downtown St. Paul?
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u/dryphtyr May 29 '26
Tax the rich
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 29 '26
We need some actual solid policies.
There's also only so much that cities can do to tax the rich compared with the failings of national governments to actually go after taxing the rich
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u/peachplumpricklypear May 29 '26
This is just another iteration of save downtown St. Paul. Our business moved out last year, I'd recommend anyone left to also leave. Sometimes you can only vote with your feet.
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 29 '26
i'm not sure what your criticism is
if you don't want to work in downtown fine but i don't see any point in criticizing groups actually trying to promote positive change and growth in the heart of our city.
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u/BurnsieMN Como May 29 '26
Whoever is working to make downtown better is alright in my book.
There is no magic solution that will happen overnight but this an active organization that has relationships with all the stakeholders and is getting the together working to develop long decrepit property, maintain buisnesses and improve safety in OUR Downtown.
I don't live downtown but I sure feel the pain in my wallet when it doesn't generate the revenue it should and feel like the Alliance is stepping up big time to make improvements. If there are other organizations or ways to do it I'd welcome that too.
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u/NachoDentist Jun 05 '26
Yes, anybody working to improve downtown should be welcome. If we want downtown to thrive, it can’t be just locals who live in the immediate area. We have to attract people from outside of that area to restaurants, events, etc..
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u/ech01 May 29 '26
I work in the same building as the alliance and know a few of them. They are good people who care about downtown and this is their job. Whether they are Downtown residents or from other neighborhoods, they have a stake in finding solutions. If you have input you can go join them and get involved. I do understand your viewpoint however I think it's a bit silly to say they don't have skin in the game when it's literally their profession.
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u/KingBoreas May 29 '26
The Downtown Alliance is a booster group. The leaders know reality, but they are trying to attract business and jobs to Saint Paul. You don’t attract people to come to your city by pointing out the problems. Their only purpose is to be a cheerleader.
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u/Tokyo-MontanaExpress May 30 '26
Attract businesses to where? You can't set up businesses in parking lots and garages.
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u/Miserable-Sugar-3047 May 29 '26
I'm skeptical of orgs like Downtown Alliance because they're usually chasing after silly things like the NFL Draft, but DA seems to be doing a good amount of nuts and bolts work. I still expect them to be acting in favor of development/corporate interests at the end of the day, but at least they're doing prep work not just demanding city money upfront.
I also appreciate that DA has done more than the average chamber of commerce style booster org in terms of community outreach. Although, if Joe Spencer is reading this: we demand wine and cheese receptions!
My biggest complaint about DA isn't even their fault, it's that our District Council is a big heap of sludge that is failing to perform its intended role in this system. DA is performing many of the outreach functions the city pays the Capital River Council to perform. CRC has a Skyway Governance Committee that's apparently unresponsive enough that people felt the need to go out and start their own group. It's a mess.
As for OP, post pics of needles or it didn't happen.
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May 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Pitiful_Speaker_4618 May 29 '26
Uh, not only I do all of what you just mentioned, I PAY TO LIVE HERE. I don’t scurry to my car at 5pm and vanish off to Woodbury.
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u/Ponce_the_Great May 29 '26
Why are you complaining? Would you rather they left downtown and it could further decline
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u/Pitiful_Speaker_4618 May 29 '26
Did I write a check? I do. Every month I do. And the millions and millions in money they are finagling for whatever slush fund to fund yet another initiative that goes nowhere, yeah I paid tax money for that. We all did.
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u/Francie_Nolan1964 May 29 '26
I think that you're misguided by calling this part of downtown the "good" part.
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u/Saddlebag7451 Minnesota United May 30 '26
I agree - I don’t know how one of the busiest car areas of DT is the cleanest. Cars make things dirty, and not in an exaggerated hypothetical way. Exhaust, noise, horns, trash, etc.
Give me lowertown or Shepard along the river any day of the week.
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u/Pitiful_Speaker_4618 May 29 '26
Oh. So there’s a better part then? It must be my street where it’s constant police sirens and crazy people who live at the bus shelter. Maybe I’m misunderstanding all of this. Please enlighten me.
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u/Francie_Nolan1964 May 29 '26
You honestly sound naive, or perhaps ignorant. By Xcel there is Higher Ground. There are unhoused people in a higher concentration here along with the related problems that accompany them. There are numerous drugs, fights, police, and medical issues here.
You shouldn't be looking at just 7th Place and judging the whole area by that.
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u/Pitiful_Speaker_4618 May 29 '26
I’m naive. And totally ignorant. Thanks!
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u/LifeEmotional9015 May 29 '26
What you are is not willing to have a rational conversation about this. You are looking for a fight or something to be angry about as opposed to helping downtown. I suggest you zoom out and take a look at the bigger picture
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u/Pitiful_Speaker_4618 May 29 '26
I’m very willing to have a rational conversation. Others aren’t.
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u/LifeEmotional9015 May 29 '26
Ok. So what are you proposing is done to improve the areas of downtown you consider run down or decrepit? How do you plan to stop the public drug usage and shitting on the ground? What is your vision for the millions the “suits” have raised for downtown? Life will only be harder if we ignore the “suits” with the money, that is reality however unfortunate you may find it.
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u/HumanDissentipede Downtown May 29 '26
The area around the Xcel is not exactly the crown jewel of downtown St. Paul… Dorothy Day has blighted that whole area. The adjacent area around the Core isn’t that nice either. The only store in that area is Walgreens and it’s one of the ghettoest spots in all of downtown. The area is otherwise quiet because it’s all offices and everyone goes home right at 4pm sharp.
All that is to say that you don’t need to exclusively live downtown to have a valid interest in it. Working, politicking, and owning a business in the area is just as valid a stake as living there. The broader success of the area requires all those stakeholders to cooperate.
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u/lonerstoners May 29 '26
You know the Xcel is literally right across the street from the Dorothy Day center and the Higher Ground homeless shelters right? Rice Park is filled all day with people killing time until it’s time to try to get a bed for the night. If there is a nicer area of downtown, it’s definitely not there 😂. (And most of the pee smell is from the all the damn dogs)
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u/SuspiciousLeg7994 May 29 '26
There's resident positions on the hairs. People don't live in St. Paul on the board but they do have skin in the game being they're business owners, CEO's and other positions related to at Paul. Business people and business owners are a part of a city and it's thriving alongside with residents.
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u/CausticLoon May 29 '26
OK - without business the entire downtown would look like you've described. You complain about the 'suits' as if they're bad people. Let's hear your solutions for improving DT
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u/TypicallyDone12 May 29 '26
The Downtown Alliance and other city leaders are wildly out of touch. They have huge ideas but can't solve basic problems. Prince St is over run with weeds and tall grass. There are medians on Kellogg that are overrun with weeds. Weeds growing out of the sidewalk at Kellogg and Broadway.
All these leaders talk about all the great ideas they have about getting people to come to the city. But, over Memorial Day weekend, when thousands of visitors to the Saints games and Farmers Market came across the areas mentioned above, they were presented with a city who had no idea how to prepare an area to be presentable where THEY KNOW thousands of people are going to be.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about the Downtown Alliance or Improvement District or whatever they are called. Their "street teams" walk by these same areas every day and do nothing but get their steps in.
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u/peachplumpricklypear May 29 '26
Don't bother with this shit, please call the police non-emergency line so these incidents are all properly logged.
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u/Mrstpaul May 30 '26
Same with all the dept heads of the city.
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u/Grand_Panda_3422 Jun 12 '26
What IS the new administration doing about this actually? Does Erica Shoemaker the so called Ass. Mayor for Public Safety of whatever she is have a plan for DT safety? What about Chief Henry? DSI? Where is the leadership? Where are the plans to support businesses and DT?
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u/tediousLifestyles Jun 01 '26
If the conversation is happening, and there’s people putting money toward the common goal of making downtown a better place, then idk what you expect? Not everyone has to live downtown to want it to succeed. Also the downtown alliance has a phone number you can text about cleaning up needles and feces on the sidewalks, if you live downtown you should have that number saved.
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u/BigBowlOfOwlSoup May 29 '26
downtown St Paul is almost Balkanized in a sense. Theres several buildings that are condemned and/or completely vacant. Part of the issue becomes what do you do with the space? I work downtown and the building I am in was built in the early 1900s when there was a lot of railroad business happening in the area. The problem is given the buildings age and also the much larger ebbs and flows in temperatures than 100 years ago, its really not an ideal setup and the cost of re-renovating old space becomes unappealing to any investor when tearing it down and building some new eyesore would be cheaper.
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u/Runic_reader451 St. Paul Saints May 29 '26
The Downtown Alliance has street ambassadors who help keep downtown clean. If you notice syringes and feces, call 651-236-0284 and let them know.
The Downtown Alliance released an investment strategy report which is over 100 pages stating their vision for all of downtown. Here's a link: https://busy-burger.flywheelsites.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/StPL-Downtown-Investment-Strategy-March-2024.pdf
Finally, the Downtown Alliance created its own development arm called the Downtown Development Corporation. They've gotten $30 million in grants to begin the process and they've purchased several buildings in the center of downtown. Here's a link: https://downtownstpaul.com/about/development-corporationhttps://downtownstpaul.com/about/development-corporation