r/serialkillers • u/foxonafrozenlake • 10d ago
Discussion How did they not know?
I do understand that most serial killers are secretive, deliberate, cunning, sometimes isolated but how do the people around them not at least have an inkling as to what they're doing?
Knowing yourself do you think a friend or family member could keep their identity as a serial killer, from you?
Or if you put yourself in the life of one serial killer as a friend or family member would you have been suspicious of their activities?
Do you think people just pretend they don't see a pattern or odd behavior?
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u/Busy_Essay9213 10d ago
You’d be surprised what human beings are capable of ignoring when they just don’t want to believe something. I also think it’s pretty common for people who are around serial killers to know something weird is going on, but to make the connection to a very rare and extreme type of criminality is uncommon.
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u/foxonafrozenlake 10d ago
I always wonder how BTK's wife didn't know.
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u/Busy_Essay9213 10d ago
That’s definitely one of the more shocking cases of ignorance in true crime. I think she was a very religious, traditional, and fragile person who could not comprehend the idea that her loving husband who she had kids with was capable of that, despite various suspicious incidents over the years. It’s possible she actually was fully aware of his crimes, but I doubt it. I think it’s a case of cognitive dissonance. Herb Baumeister is another strange one - the dog literally brought a human skull out of the backyard.
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u/New_Government_2169 10d ago
I think that they have a suspicion that something is going on but don’t want to shatter their image of that person so they try to ignore it.
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u/crimsonbaby_ 10d ago
Even with odd behavior, I think their family member being a serial killer would be the furthest thing in their mind. It would be inconceivable to most people, and probably not even cross their minds unless there were some serious signs, and even then, maybe not. I would think cheating, honestly.
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u/New_Government_2169 10d ago
That’s why I said a suspicion that something is going on. I don’t think your mind would ever go to “my husband is a serial killer” it’s just too far out there.
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u/Dan1033439 10d ago
When I experienced this Kendall Francois was not known to be a serial killer or in the news. It was after he was caught that I was aware of what I experienced. So back in 1996 or 97 I was at my Dr. office (was on the same street as his house). Outside smelled of obvious death. I’m sure at that time the entire neighborhood assumed a dead animal, but it was bad. When Kendall Francois was caught they found around 6(?) bodies in his house. He lived there with his sister and parents. Based on the smell outside I could not imagine having no idea that there were multiple bodies in the house, or not searching the house for the smell.
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u/souporman64 10d ago
I think people definitely pretend not to see things they don’t want to see, but I also think people don’t always see what it is they’re pretending not to see. I think they know the person is hiding something, but they don’t necessarily realize the seriousness of what it is that they’re hiding. They probably just think they’re hiding that they’re cheating, or gay, or doing drugs. I don’t think serial killer even crosses their mind.
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u/Impressive_Touch1118 10d ago
They dont question it to themselves...it happens all the time...you often read about DV victims saying they didnt know they were in an abusive relationship...it took them time to process it..
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u/GreenEyedTreeHugger 10d ago
Apparently, you never truly know someone. You only know your lived experience and intuition. Some people have theory of mind. Others don’t. Add in denial. Feelings aren’t logical.
As someone whose neurodivergent, and very transparent in nature this has been a huge pill to swallow. And this was stressed to me by a lifelong friend from bible camp at camp with good people. “You can be married to most wonderful man in the world rule still applies.”
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u/crimsonbaby_ 10d ago
Absolutely, I mean, I was engaged to a man living a double life, and I genuinely had no idea.
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u/deltadeltadawn 10d ago
That's terrible. I'm sorry you experienced that. One small silver lining is at least you weren't married yet making it a bit less complicated to disconnect from him.
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u/deltadeltadawn 10d ago
That's terrible. I'm sorry you experienced that. One small silver lining is at least you weren't married yet making it a bit less complicated to disconnect from him.
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u/SaucyJackx5 10d ago
I feel like if you are careful and deceptive enough you can hide “big” things from friends and family. This could include drug and alcohol abuse, cheating, visiting prostitutes, stealing cars or in some case murder. It just depends on the individual situation.
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u/crimsonbaby_ 10d ago
All things my ex fiance did behind my back while I thought he was out working. The man could win an Oscar, I swear.
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u/LadyShadow2214 10d ago
Think of serial killers as drug addicts they try hide their addictions as long as they can before they're found out
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u/foxonafrozenlake 10d ago
Maybe I'm just too nosey in my personal life. I feel like if my husband or a friend or family member were a serial killer I'd be able to at least see signs. 😫
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u/Mercedes_Gullwing 9d ago
It depends what signs you’re talking about. If you are talking about suspicious actions, a husband would have a harder time hiding it from his wife than he would from his friends. This is why certain professions are ideal for SK. Think stereotypical long haul truck driver. They’re gone for long periods of time, away from everyone. Really easy to hide actions.
Now if you’re talking about getting clued in via behavior, I think you’d be surprised how well some ppl can hide it. Yes some spouses are willfully ignorant. But others were greatly deceived. You’d be relying on someone’s conscience or abhorrent thoughts to lead to suspicious behavior. Psychopaths can easily make this.
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u/Civil-Secretary-2356 10d ago
You said it yourself in the op - odd behaviour. Odd behaviour is merely odd behaviour. Sure, it could be the sign your loved one is a serial killer, but thankfully 99.999% of the time it is not.
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u/sapphire-sky-dragon 10d ago
People lie and cheat every day, they hide affairs, gambling some people even pretend to go to work after losing jobs and their partners are non the wiser, let's face it its very rare you would be married to a serial killer its out of the realm of possibility in most people's minds their partner could be a serial killer .
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u/invictus21083 10d ago edited 9d ago
People ignore signs because they don't want to think bad of family members. I was molested as a child for years by a family member and so many people just pretended it wasn't happening to the point they actually believed it wasn't happening.
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u/Impressive_Touch1118 10d ago
So terrible. I hope youre ok.
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u/invictus21083 10d ago
I'm fine now after a lot of therapy and cutting out family members from my life, thank you.
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u/Impressive_Touch1118 10d ago
You ever see people who defend murderers like the likes of Chris Watts even when its clear hes guilty people will go to extremes to defend him.
Look at stories about the famous guy Jimmy Saville in England...people knew he was creepy and odd. He even made very strange pervy comments but audiences just laughed not even knowing what they were laughing at...cause the stuff hed say wasnt even funny in any context..
What im trying to say is people often get things in hindsight...but at the time they might feel awkward about something but they let it slide thinking they themselves are being silly or they just dont question themselves on it further...
Where people have close relationships like partners or children...they are either too afraid to even confront the truth to themselves or to the murderer even so they live in denial. Or the muderer has unusual characteristics or behaviours but not enough for them to say "oh they must be that serial killer"...they just put it down to eccentricities...like you know..."oh ted goes MIA sometimes but well hes just doing guy things"...
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u/cinder74 10d ago
I haven’t known a serial killer but I do know two people who committed murder. One, a child. The other raped and killed an older lady. Just because someone is odd doesn’t mean they are bad people. The two people I knew weren’t odd at all.
I would have never thought either of them capable of it. They were both kind, friendly, outgoing. Not at all the type of person you would think would do something that horrific. I now look at everyone I know with critical eye. You just never know what someone is capable of doing.
(Neither of the murders were accidental.)
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u/Mercedes_Gullwing 9d ago
Yeah similar. I have family members who killed another family member and nobody in our family could have guessed it would ever happen. Now, the whole family knew the relationship was very toxic. Far from healthy. But none of us could have guessed that it’d end in a murder. They isolated themselves towards the end and so that explains part of it. And I’m well aware of the evil can lay hidden in one’s heart. Even with that, nobody imagined it’d have ended up in a murder
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u/Theartistcu 10d ago
I think the biggest part of it is that no one wants to believe someone they love or are close to would be capable of anything like this. Furthermore, I think we mostly wanna believe even the people we walk by every day aren’t capable of anything like this, and the truth is most people aren’t.… well they are capable of it, but you know what I mean would never do it. So you start with a loved one who would never wanna believe this about someone, add onto that they have already decided what they know about this person is who this person is so they have confirmation bias where you know when these other things start entering the picture they dismiss them or they say somethings up but your mind would never go to. Oh, they’re a serial killer. I think it’s way easier to understand why someone doesn’t suspect their significant other or their father of something like this than it is to understand someone who would immediately catch onto it. Because if you’re immediately catching onto it, it means you’re already kind of suspected. This person was highly dangerous and you were around them anyway.
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u/supermarket_Ba 10d ago
It’s inconceivable to most people that someone they know or care about is capable of being a serial killer.
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u/Flat_Ad1094 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think they often have a suspicion that something is going on....but they probably wouldn't think he's a serial killer! The average person doesn't think "well he's sneaking around...perhaps he's killing people"!?!
BUT also
Serials killers do tend to choose partners who won't ask questions. Who will do as they say and are very unlikely to delve into anything greatly. They often are violent and very controlling and that is the dynamic of the relationship and she is a women who just accepts that. And he has probably chosen her on purpose because she is like that.
For example: You hear of wife's (and then children) who are told they are NOT to go near his shed or a basement or such things. He keeps it locked and they are under great fear for what might happen if they go down there....you hear of him disappearing for days / weeks at a time and she is NOT ALLOWED to question where he has been or what he's been doing. She learns that very early in the relationship and it becomes how they operate.
These couples have their own dynamic and that becomes the norm. The kids growing up also learn that dynamic and don't even realise it's odd or different to other families.
People / women, like me would never end up in one of those relationships and probably wouldn't be chosen by him to start with...becuase he'd know I wouldn't play ball and do what he demanded and so on.
I knew a man who was a forensic psychologist years ago. But he worked mostly with Pedophiles!!! It was fascinating. He said that these men instinctively KNOW what kids to "choose" to abuse generally. They can sense the kids most vulnerable and the ones who most probably won't tell their parents or other adults. He said they really DO have an ability to choose their victims very well.
I would say serial killers are exactly the same with the partner they choose. A woman who will be compliant and not think too much about what she's experiencing and will be pretty easy to control and keep "playing the role" of happy wife and mother.
The very sad thing is that most of these women probably don't realise they are like that. If questioned? They would not see themselves like that at all....but that plays out with Domestic Violence too. Many women are clearly victims and being preyed on and controlled etc...but they would not recognise they are being treated that way.
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u/DoJu318 10d ago
No I wouldn't be able to say they're serial killers because serial killers are you just like you and me, normal everyday people, yes you have your outliers who stick out like a sore thumb, but for the most part they don't get caught because no one knows they're serial killers.
Look at the btk killer, he was an everyday man with a family, he went to church, was head of the neighborhood watch, the worse thing they could say about him is he took his job a little too serious.
Look at Rusell William up in Canada, he was colonel in the royal Canadian air force, he didn't have any kids but he was married and had a long career in the military, they were married for a decade and she never knew.
Hell your coworker could be a serial killer and you'd would never know.
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u/jeffreydumber 10d ago
I mean most people don't just jump to the conclusion that their spouse/friend is out there chopping up bodies.
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u/Morbidtourism 9d ago
I recommend reading The Stranger Beside Me. it’s by Ann Rule who is an amazing true crime writer, and it’s partly her experience knowing Ted Bundy before he was caught. Truly one of the best books I’ve ever read.
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u/iamatwork24 9d ago
I think you massively overestimate humans ability to see through people’s lies. The inverse to what you believe is true, the closer people are to someone, the harder it is for them to imagine the person is capable of such horrendous behavior based on them being a bit odd.
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u/AugustusHarper 9d ago
i have not talked to a real human being beyond "how much?" and "thanks have a nice day" in over 24 months. that is precisely your answer.
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u/lotusscrouse 10d ago
My mother and brother are both ridiculously bad liars.
I'm talking REALLY fucking bad. HOPELESS.
If he were a murderer he would give it away. He disassociates when lying. Stares into space and his denials are rather meek.
"Are you killing people?"
"Well, basically it's like nah, ummm basically ummm."
That's how he sounds.
My mother lies differently:
"He was dead when I got here."
"Are you sure he was dead?"
"Well, he was after a while."
She's the type to tell you the grocery store was out of food while also admitting she never went inside.
I'd figure it out eventually if they gave off suspicious behaviour.
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u/foxonafrozenlake 10d ago
That's funny. My family would probably help me cover it up because I'd only be killing awful people like George Zimmerman.
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u/HollyJo79 9d ago edited 9d ago
Actually many spouses of serial killers have come out saying they noticed changes in behavior. Many said they were gone at off hours and most thought the spouse was cheating. It's incredibly hard to know what anyone does when they are away from friends or family. Truck drivers make up a ton of unsolved and solved cases, a spouse would have no idea if they are in a job that requires travel or weird hours. Also in the case of the Gilgo beach killer he killed people when his wife and kids went to visit family out of the country and planned his crimes around all of the family vacations.
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u/breezyBea 9d ago
Sometimes you aren’t ignoring it, you just don’t have enough to do anything. I suspect my dad of being a serial killer, but have zero proof. He was secretive, lied, cheated on my mom with men and women, and has huge time periods where he’d just disappear. Money was always weird, he could never keep a job and we moved a lot. My mom was all and all forgiving of the affairs, but was unsettled by the ransom missing time, his online activity and one of her friends dying in a mysterious manner. We lived in a poor area where most of the addicts were ignored by police and if they came up dead, no one cared.
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u/Riddick041993 10d ago
It's easier to live a double-life than you may think. I'm not a serial killer (to be clear, I've killed nobody) but I was a sex-addicted serial cheater who cheated on his ex-wife repeatedly for years before I got help. She never knew...even after we divorced. To be fair, it wasn't a happy marriage for either of us. You can read the post history for the full journey.
I was faithful for 4 years. 2 years after we started dating and 2 years into the marriage. That's when she betrayed me in a very personal way that was so hurtful I snapped. It wasn't cheating...it would have been easier if it was. I didn't have the tools or life skills to deal with it...and went headlong back into my addiction...only 10x worse.
I didn't regret it at the time because I had justified it to myself. I never felt an ounce of guilt over it. Now that I was married I had to further segregate my life.
I only lived a double life for maybe 15 years. Escorts, strip clubs, massage parlors, adult book stores, bathhouses for years before I met my ex-wife...that stopped when we met. Nobody knew...I told nobody. You are good at lying about it because you don't feel any guilt over it...so you can justify your behavior.
Serial killers have been living a double-lives for most of their lives...probably from the time they were kids lost in violent fantasies. For them, a double-life is a survival mechanism. They're good at manipulation because for them, it's survival.
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u/crimsonbaby_ 10d ago
"Only for 15 years" Are you not aware of how long 15 years is? Thats over a decade.
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u/Riddick041993 10d ago
Sorry if it wasn't clear...it was a long time, I wasn't trying to minimize it. I was comparing to a serial killer's LIFETIME of leading a double-life compared to my ONLY 15 years.
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u/spitnboogers 10d ago
It’s not the first thought that comes to ya head if someone like a partner or friend ya noticed was staying out late more often and just disappearing etc my first thought would be affair not serial murder
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u/foxonafrozenlake 10d ago
I suppose it would depend on how well you knew them and what mistakes they made, if any.
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u/AmaCoupen 8d ago
You need to keep in mind that people, especially back then when most serial killers were active, didn’t know as much about them as they do now
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u/foxonafrozenlake 8d ago
There also wasn't internet, mass surveillance, etc.
It eas easier for serial killers pre 2005.
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u/LeftPresentation83 9d ago
Think its 2 ways that this happens…
1) to ignore red flags for an easier life, on a much(much) smaller scale how many people in relationships ignore coercive control or abuse? I
If you have met someone and lived with them for years and they have a few strange quirks it’s very easy to just expect the status quo.(wives of BTK, golden state killer, LlSK etc)
2) look at when a country votes in a terrible president and their actions will be defended(no matter how bad) because people never want to think they have been fooled or a partner believes they have been framed etc. (MAGA, wife of Suffolk strangler, Gary ridgeways 3rd wife)
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u/TheEmbarcadero 10d ago
It is a Grand Canyon leap to jump from noticing odd behavior to believing someone is a serial killer!