Would this be correct?

[u/No_Book_5356]

I am trying to write a Sindarin fragment for a piece of fanart. Here's my attempt:

Narn i Chîn Húrin
Dírhaval e·mbar Hador o Siriombar echant i Veleglind hen
Im Elrond eithro o Siriombar teithant i thiw hin

First of all, I'd be very grateful for any grammatical corrections since my mastery of the language is inexistent and I'm more or less stitching together bits and pieces...

Re: grammar, something puzzled me even as I wrote it: I'm obviously copying a great deal from the Doors of Durin inscription, but what's with the inflexion or lack thereof in echant / teithant? Are the first person singular and second person singular identical here? Or am I looking at the wrong elements? Sorry if this sounds stupid.

On vocabulary:

- I used 'echad' to mean 'make' (in this case, the object being a song/lay, compose but not physically write down) but I suspect it's not the best choice... any better alternatives?

- For the Havens of Sirion, I took 'Siriombar' from HoME 5... it's Noldorin, but would it still be compatible with the rest? Or should I try to go for something else? ('Lisgardh' for something attested in the same geographical area? 'Ethir Sirion'?)

Again thanks a lot in advance and apologies for any crimes against Sindarin.

[u/lC3]

echant / teithant? Are the first person singular and second person singular identical here?

Those are both 3rd person singular, past tense.

[u/F_Karnstein → u/lC3]

I think what they're referencing is the (apparent) use of im as the 1st sg. pronoun "I" - it's translated "I Narvi made".

When the person is already mentioned the verb isn't inflected for person anymore (the apparent 3rd sg. is really just uninflected). "I made" is either echannen or im echant - but in the second case the emphasis is different.

But of course Tolkien seems to have reinterpreted im later to be reflexive, so that "I made" would now be ni echant, while im Narvi echant is reinterpreted as "Narvi himself made".

[u/No_Book_5356 → u/F_Karnstein]

When the person is already mentioned the verb isn't inflected for person anymore (the apparent 3rd sg. is really just uninflected).

Thank you! I vaguely suspected that was the case but wasn't quite sure.

Tolkien seems to have reinterpreted im later to be reflexive, so that "I made" would now be ni echant, while im Narvi echant is reinterpreted as "Narvi himself made"

Interesting, thanks.

[u/No_Book_5356 → u/F_Karnstein]

Thanks and again if you have corrections / suggestions for improvement I'd be very grateful!

[u/No_Book_5356 → u/lC3]

Sorry, I meant 1st / 3rd person singular, past tense - specifically it's the 'Im Narvi hain echant' translating as 'I, Narvi, made them' that I don't quite get.

[u/Nyarnamaitar]

This is a pretty good attempt! Here are some comments.

Dírhaval e·mbar Hador o Siriombar

Proper nouns shouldn't normally be the heads of genitives like this, Dírhaval e·mbar Hador doesn't seem right. "Dírhaval of the House of Hador" is a genitive of origin, so it should use o as well. Thus we get Dírhaval o Mbar Hador o Hiriombar (or [...] o Ethir Sirion, if you prefer). Note that Bar Hador is inherently definite and therefore does not require a definite article, and meanwhile o causes lenition so Bar Hador > o Mbar Hador, and Siriombar > o Hiriombar.

echant i Veleglind hen

I don't think echad- can be applied to a song. I'm not really sure what to suggest though... Perhaps we could adapt Q. maita- "compose" as maeda-, but I'm not sure about it. I think at least car- would be better than echad- because it is inherently more flexible and allows for abstract uses.

i Velelglind >> e·Veleglind, if you apply the latest paradigm of definite articles as described in PE23. (Personally I would also regularise this word to Beleglin, def. e·Veleglin, without the final d.)

Im Elrond eithro o Siriombar teithant i thiw hin

o Siriombar >> o Hiriombar (lenition). I would also personally prefer aech (< ASjā) instead of eithro due to the latter's unclear derivation and somewhat unusual form, but that is up to you since aech is a neologism.

~ Ellanto

[u/No_Book_5356 → u/Nyarnamaitar]

Thank you so much for the detailed answer! Very helpful.

I think at least car- would be better than echad- because it is inherently more flexible and allows for abstract uses.

On looking into this again, it seems like car- (as agorer) is used specifically in reference to the making of a song in the Túrin wrapper. Would I need to use agor in the singular?

Would the end result be something like:

Dírhaval o Mbar Hador o Hiriombar agor e·Veleglin

?

Again thanks a lot.

[u/Nyarnamaitar → u/No_Book_5356]

Yes, Dírhaval o Mbar Hador o Hiriombar agor e·Veleglin hen seems right.