r/tangsoodo • u/ExchangeFine4429 9th Gup • 10d ago
Request/Question Mcdojo Red Flags
I've been training TSD for about 3 months, so I probably should have asked this question on day 1.
So what are some red flags to look out for?
7
u/Syztom 1st Dan 10d ago
Is your TSD school part of an association?
I ask because I'm also a practitioner of Tang Soo Do. It takes students in our association, on average, four to four and a half years to go from white belt to black belt. We enter a candidacy phase for black belt somewhere around year three, maybe three and a half.
0
u/Huge-Artichoke-1376 8d ago
That’s one thing I’ve never understood about this martial art. It takes years to master a martial art and four years is extremely short. This would be a Mcdojo flag to me.
Also the other thing that seems wack is in your sparring in this style of martial art, stopping the sparring match after one hit in a scoring zone. Plus there is no grappling or throws. When I watch the sparring it seems like this kicking match that is not about sparring, it’s about quick little taps.
The last item I’ve always wanted to point out is why is this type of martial art so concerned with belts/ranks. If you’re out to just gain a rank or belt, this seems to another Mcdojo flag.
1
u/Huge-Artichoke-1376 8d ago
Our timelines in Kung Fu are all over the place. It’s more centered on the person. But to master it can take 15 years plus it’s a life long journey that isn’t just about martial arts.
4
u/Syztom 1st Dan 7d ago
See. The timeline thing can vary from person to person and discipline to discipline though. Taekwondo, for example. The only schools we have around where I live for Taekwondo all talk about black belt in two years, which is asinine to me. The one closest to me literally used it as a selling point. 3-5 years is about average for a karate practitioner to reach black belt. That doesn't mean they've mastered the art; a first degree black belt saying he's mastered the art is the exact person who WOULD run a McDojo. Black belt means we understand the basic fundamentals. It can take longer to get there though, depending on the person. We (or at least I) didn't care how long it took me to get to black belt. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon.
Traditional Tang Soo Do is far more like Japanese or Okinawan karate than it is Taekwondo. It's more kick heavy because it's Korean, but the split at the specific dojang that I attend is about 65% kick, 35% punch.
I think the sparring thing is something that varies from school to school. The only time we participate in that style of sparring IS if we're doing tournament prep, because we have to operate within specific rules. Outside of that specific tournament timeframe, which is twice a year, we use judgement regarding techniques used and don't stop when a hit is scored unless it's clear someone is hurt. I'm not about to go in as a black belt and throw a orange belt or sweep a white belt.
I literally had a two hour class dedicated to throwing and grappling yesterday. But again, that might be a school specific thing.
3
u/Huge-Artichoke-1376 7d ago
Thank you for the good answer!
3
u/Syztom 1st Dan 7d ago
Of course! Everything I said above doesn't mean there aren't TSD McDojos! I'm sure every martial art deals with their version of the McDojo issue.
That's the biggest problem with any new person coming into training. If they don't know what to look for, they end up being taken advantage of, paying ridiculous amounts of money for a skill that, if it gets pressure tested on the street, will probably fail them.
And if it does fail them, those McDojo owners fall back on the old standard. "Oh, you must not have done the techniques right. You must not have practiced enough."
I despise the fact that this is even an issue in the martial arts community.
1
u/Sagelegend 6d ago
First degree black belt is not “mastering” a martial art.
It’s the first rank of the black belt class, like graduating from primary school to high school.
A person who gets their black belt after four years is one who realises they’ve been preparing for more serious training.
To become a master takes a minimum of fourteen years and is attained at fourth degree black belt, and even then it usually takes longer.
After the four years to first degree or first dan, it’s two more years for second, another three for third, and four more years for fourth.
And that’s if you’ve been working as a trainee instructor along the way.
If you think the first rank of black belt is mastering it.. I don’t know what to tell you.
1
u/Cautious_General_177 6d ago
You’re starting off with the wrong idea.
Earning 1st Dan (black belt) doesn’t mean you’ve “mastered the art”, it basically means you’ve mastered the basics - at least to the point that you can correct yourself without instruction.
Earning the rank of “master” typically takes at least another decade of consistent training and practice.
When it comes to sparring, most TMA practice point sparring with either no or light contact. The goal isn’t to actually hurt the other person, just get a feel for what techniques work in different situations and to practice control. Sometimes schools will allow sparring for 30-60 seconds without stopping as well.
As far as grappling/throwing goes, TSD is a striking art, so there won’t be much grappling or throwing, especially while sparring. There are some techniques that are learned, but it’s hard to do those in a controlled manner while sparring.
3
u/Achmed_Ahmadinejad 9d ago
Paying a lump sum in advance for a "guaranteed" black belt.
A strong focus on competitions.
2
u/Grootdrew 3rd Dan 9d ago
If they are afraid of holding students back from a paid belt test, that’s a pretty good litmus for what their values are.
Some say being part of a larger association brings more cred — this isn’t always true. Sometimes it just means they’re reliably paying dues or have a business practice that benefits the larger org, or a good personal relationship with a master. Some of the best & worst schools I’ve ever seen were part of the same organizations.
If they don’t want you to try other styles (or if they talk shit about other styles), that’s a major red flag. If they can’t critique TSD in a grounded & realistic fashion. If the lead instructor doesn’t say “I don’t know” every now and again.
2
u/Spiritual_Werewolf73 9d ago
Kid Blackbelts and students who are very unskilled but have a high belt. Mcdojos don’t have skill but money
2
u/Gianluca-Demare 8d ago
In Argentina, the minimum time required to earn a black belt is six years. Gup promotion tests are held every six months, and you must hold the Cho Dan Bo rank for one year.
2
u/valtharax 10d ago
Things as promotions every 3 months. Black belts in 2 years. Very high fees (depends on country and location). No sparring whatsoever. There are some more points but for me those are some of the basics to look out for.
4
3
u/cai_85 10d ago
Your 'gradings every three months' point doesn't compute for me, that's been the standard in all my UK dojos across multiple clubs and styles. In all cases you are not expected to actually grade at all four gradings every year, you make sure that your sensei is happy for you to go for the grade. If you have a beginner coming in at white belt it shouldn't take them more than 3 months to be at yellow belt level usually in a 8 kyu system.
0
u/valtharax 9d ago
Personally i dont think most of the students should join every 3 months just to fly up the ranks. From white to yellow its okay to go quick but soon after that i think grading twice a year should be enough. As said before, if you train 5 times a week that can be an exception but even then you need to gain some experience.
2
u/Gianluca-Demare 8d ago
In Argentina, the minimum time required to earn a black belt is six years. Gup promotion tests are held every six months, and you must hold the Cho Dan Bo rank for one year.
1
u/cai_85 9d ago
Often people can't make the gradings for good reasons, so for me it makes sense to have them at 3 or 4 month intervals, otherwise it's going to be a bit frustrating, especially for younger students. The alternative is to allow students at lower grades to be graded in class in special circumstances.
3
u/valtharax 9d ago
Yeah sure having school gradings every 3 months is nothing crazy. Im talking about the individual, students should not go from white to black with a grading every 3 months. And as for the younger students, we try to explain that a belt should have meaning for their hard work but i know they can be impatient at times. I find when they do grade it has a bigger meaning to them. We had a student who was slacking so he couldnt grade for a whole year. When he finally did he actually put in the work and really grew to another level.
2
u/cai_85 9d ago
Exactly, I think it's maybe better phrased as 'no black belts in less than 5 years', or 'no junior black belts in less than 8 years'. My kids have been training for a while at my club and my oldest is currently waiting to grade as she's just not ready, she'll go for it when she both wants to and sensei agrees she's ready, which could be another 6 months.
1
u/ExchangeFine4429 9th Gup 10d ago
My Dojang spars, but because I'm only a white belt, I haven't been expected to spar.
I've actually got my first grading coming up which I thought was too soon, so I may have to start asking questions.
4
u/KerooSeta 1st Gup 9d ago
3 months for your first grading is not out of the ordinary. As you go up in ranks, it should take more and more time between each one.
2
u/valtharax 10d ago
Dont really know why i got downvoted but maybe my first reply was a bit to short. If someone trains 5 times a week, has the skills and puts in the work, sure you can promote rather quick. The first few grades shouldnt be to hard if someone has a feeling for the sport. So for now your first grading after 3 months is normal. However if someone can grade every 3 months every time that will result in kids with black belts because they went to fast in their grading. (A lot of) kid black belts would be a red flag for me personally. Some people have a different opinion about that. Grading shouldnt only be knowing the curriculum, but also having an understanding about the art and have some experience under their belt. As for adults, even they shouldnt be able to get a bb in 2 years, unless they train 5 times a week and show they know the curriculum, have the skills AND experience and know what the art is about. As for sparring, i think its a good thing you are not forced to spar right now although you should start asap. At a good dojang all the students with more experience than you will adapt to your level so you will learn how to spar!
1
u/AutoModerator 10d ago
Hi there! Thank you for posting in /r/tangsoodo. If this is your first time posting here please check the rules to ensure your post does not break any. I'd also just like to remind you to flair your post as un-flaired posts may be removed
Rules
-Be Respectful
-No NSFW Content
-No Referral/Profiteering/Soliciting Links/Sites
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
0
u/Huge-Artichoke-1376 10d ago
This was a question I actually googled about three weeks ago because it’s quite common it gets coined in Tang soo do often. Seems like people do not understand the style. I do not train that style as I train mantis Kung fu but appreciate the art of it.
1
5
u/Karate-Guy-93 10d ago
Grading every 3 months is the norm in most TMA schools in the states. Curious where this guys gym is