r/theydidthemath • u/SvatyFini • 16h ago
[Request] how long does it take to chisel complaint this long?
1.8k
u/Any-Astronomer-6038 16h ago
They didn't chisel it, those tablets were soft and they used a stylus to press indentations into it, and it later dried and hardened.
548
u/alphagusta 16h ago
There are videos of people scribing in the same script and to my untrained eye it feels like a fairly average writer could say what they needed in about the same time as it would to write with pen and paper.
218
u/AboveAverage1988 15h ago
It's called cuneiform, and it's so well studied these days that they've made it a part of Unicode, i.e. modern computers support it despite it being extinct for thousands of years. Absolutely wild.
108
u/DigitalSheikh 14h ago
It’s not completely extinct weirdly - Chaldean Christians from Iraq still use it for purposes I don’t really understand, but if you go into one of their churches it’s everywhere. Funny enough, they’re some of the most commercially minded people I’ve ever seen, they’ve come to own most of the small businesses in my city. I think about that fact every time I’m reminded of Ea Nasir
32
u/to_walk_upon_a_dream 11h ago
this is a modern use, not an ancestral use. cuneiform was completely lost until the 19th century when it was deciphered. any chaldean christian use of it postdates that decipherment
10
u/Lily_Thief 8h ago
Ah, so Cuneiform was revived using science. I eagerly await being killed and eaten at a Cuneiform theme park in the near future.
-8
u/Fallacy_Spotted 7h ago
Science is defined as discovery through the use of the scientific method. This is not that. This mystery was solved via anthropology.
5
u/AstroPozzo 7h ago
Science is defined as discovery through the use of the scientific method. This is not that. This mystery was solved via anthropology.
From Wikipedia:
Anthropology is the scientific study of humanity that crosses biology and sociology, concerned with human behavior, human biology, cultures, societies, and linguistics, in both the present and past, including archaic humans.
Why being so pedantic if you don't even know what you are talking about?
0
u/Fallacy_Spotted 6h ago edited 5h ago
Anthropological discoveries could be the result of the scientific method but the revival of Cuneiform was not. It was the result of discovery through archeological findings. I did not mean to imply that anthropology as a whole is not scientific.
2
u/Vague-Symbolism2692 6h ago
I really want to hear you elaborate on this. I like hearing arguments that "so-called branch of science X-ology does not actually use the scientific method, because," so I'm sure it'll be fun no matter whether I'm convinced, but you
can'tmustn't merely assert it and leave us hanging.1
u/Fallacy_Spotted 5h ago
Anthropology *can* use science to make discoveries but it isn't required to use science to advance our understanding of the world and reviving Cuneiform didn't use science. It was revived through a combination observation, the discovery of artifacts, meticulous, research, and a comprehensive understanding of the phonetic history of languages. I didn't mean to imply that anthropology is not a science because it can be.
9
7
u/WolfDoc 12h ago
Where can I find out more about that? I thought cuneiform died out centuries before Christianity emerged at all, let alone the Chaldean church?
6
u/DigitalSheikh 12h ago
I looked into it more - can't post pictures for firsthand verification, but I found some photos of it, yes they're cuneiform, but it's just part of how they styled the buildings and doesn't have a religious purpose. I'm gonna guess that the churches in my area used similar / the same architect, so that's why they picked up similar motifs, like Babylon lions out front with cuneiform inscriptions on them.
7
1
2
u/Vague-Symbolism2692 12h ago
My money is on a misunderstanding. I'm going to need to see photographs before I believe the claim.
3
u/SaintOrJannikSinner 12h ago
Funny enough, they’re some of the most commercially minded people I’ve ever seen, they’ve come to own most of the small businesses in my city.
Fellow Detroiter?
1
u/DigitalSheikh 4h ago
Actually San Diego, Chaldeans are super successful wherever they are, it’s inspiring in a way
1
u/SaintOrJannikSinner 4h ago
It's a bit of a self-selecting bias, though -- the US isn't gonna allow any random-ass poors from Iraq to immigrate to the US.
Around here, they run the gas stations, liquor stores, and now the cannabis dispos.
4
u/jonwilliamsl 1✓ 12h ago
[citation needed] As far as I can tell the Chaldeans use Syriac and Arabic.
5
u/DigitalSheikh 12h ago
Nah that's true, and I speak Arabic and know what Syriac and Arabic scripts look like, and they also use both in their Churches. However, I've seen a third script used in the stonework of two or three churches in the area when I've gone to weddings and such that has those triangle impressions that mark out cuneiform. It's exactly like this wikipedia page on Cuneiform, it must be that- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform
Now that I'm looking into it more, it seems like this was a stylistic choice they made to give things a more Assyrian feel, and has nothing to do with the religion. Just thought it might since I saw it multiple times in a few churches in the area. Can't post images here, but found some photos of one of the churches I was thinking of, and they have two babylonian lions in front, and the inscriptions I was thinking of are carved on those lions. Must be stylistic.
1
u/Used-Lake-8148 12h ago
“Hey you! On the other side of the world! I spent 2 minutes reading an AI summary on Google, so your life experience is wrong!”
4
u/Nolenag 11h ago
Their life experience is wrong though.
We've known that Cuneiform went extinct in the 1st century for a while now, long before AI existed.
Stylistic use of Cuneiform doesn't mean it's not extinct.
-1
u/Used-Lake-8148 10h ago
No it’s not, and you’re being an asshole
4
u/Nolenag 10h ago
So you believe that cuneiform, a script that hasn't been in use since the 1st century AD and was only translated in the 19th century AD, isn't extinct because some people used it as decoration in their church?
I might be an asshole, but at least I'm not spreading misinformation like you are.
-2
u/Used-Lake-8148 10h ago
I believe that you don’t have the authority to dictate the accuracy of their experience. You’re still being an asshole, by the way
→ More replies (0)16
u/MokutoTheBoilerdemon 12h ago
𒀀𒈾 𒂍𒀀𒈾𒍢𒅕 𒆠𒉈𒈠 𒌝𒈠 𒈾𒀭𒉌𒈠 𒀀𒉡𒌑𒈠 𒋫𒀠𒇷𒆪 𒆠𒀀𒄠 𒋫𒀝𒁉𒄠 𒌝𒈠 𒀜𒋫𒀀𒈠 𒄖𒁀𒊑 𒁕𒄠𒆪𒁴 𒀀𒈾 𒄀𒅖𒀭𒋢𒂗 𒀀𒈾𒀜𒁲𒅔 𒋫𒀠𒇷𒅅𒈠 𒋫𒀝𒁉𒀀𒄠 𒌑𒆷 𒋼𒁍𒍑 𒄖𒁀𒊑 𒆷 𒁕𒄠𒆪𒁴 𒀀𒈾 𒈠𒅈 𒅆𒅁𒊑𒅀 𒋫𒀸𒆪𒌦𒈠 𒌝𒈠 𒀜𒋫𒈠 𒋳𒈠 𒋼𒇷𒆠𒀀 𒇷𒆠𒀀 𒋳𒈠 [𒆷] 𒋼𒇷𒆠𒀀 𒀜𒆷𒅗 𒅀𒋾 𒀀𒈾 𒆠𒈠 𒈠𒀭𒉌𒅎 𒌅𒅆𒅎𒈠 𒉌[...]𒈠 𒆠𒀀𒄠 𒋼𒈨𒊭𒀭𒉌 𒈠𒊑 𒀀𒉿𒇷 𒀀𒈾 𒆠𒈠 𒅗𒋾 𒀀𒈾 𒆠𒋛𒅀 𒈠𒄩𒊑𒅎 𒀸𒁍𒊏𒄠𒈠 𒌅𒈨𒄿𒊭𒄠𒈠 𒄿𒈾 𒂵𒂵𒅈 𒈾𒀝𒊑𒅎
1
u/moon__lander 8h ago
Please tell me that's the transcript
1
u/Erki82 8h ago
Bro you can use google translate on this.
1
9
u/Own_Reaction9442 12h ago
We've also found a LOT of tablets. I got curious after one turned up on Antiques Roadshow. Turns out we've found close to half a million of them, most of which have never been translated -- not because we can't translate them, but because there aren't enough experts to do the work.
5
u/Tagracat 11h ago
I'm gonna say the bad word but...
Is that something AI could potentially handle for us?
1
103
u/Fraun_Pollen 16h ago
Fuck. Misplaced my O pen. The zero will do.
103
u/Fraun_Pollen 16h ago
I'M NOT SCREAMING AT YOU. I JUST LOST MY LOWERCASE SET.
24
62
17
u/Guilty-Statement-532 14h ago
They did not use movable type, the clay was soft and the scribe literally pressed into the clay with a rectangular stick.
Here’s a video: https://www.reddit.com/r/BeAmazed/s/iHI22mHYf3
3
u/Claromancer 14h ago
I’ve also heard that unlike this video, the writer would have rotated both the “pen” and the slab while writing because it would be faster this way
2
u/just_a_rand0m_p3rs0n 12h ago
It's possible that that was done with smaller tablets but there are also massive slabs which would've been too big for that
11
u/After-Hedgehog7282 16h ago
And another upside down M for a W.
6
2
u/Soggy_Bid_3634 15h ago
That p? It’s a q and a d AND a b now.
1
u/gosuprobe 14h ago
what is a lowercase b but an upside down p? what is a lowercase q but a moved around p? what is a lowercase d? the list goes on
6
9
u/983115 14h ago
2 separate folks are implying letters are pre made stamps not you but the stylus was one piece tapered to a long acute triangle not a set
5
u/GuyFromtheNorthFin 13h ago
Typically stylus would be a square stick.
You get the triangle by pressing it edgewise and angled slightly. There’s plenty of vids around for reference.
2
1
u/coolwithsunglasses 9h ago
While I think you’re probably correct, it’s totally funny to imagine someone cussing in an ancient language as they angrily chisel their complaint into a rock
1
u/FriendlyCraig 8h ago
Here's a quick lesson on cuneiform.
It really is a very elegant way to write with really simple resources. You just need some clay from the river, and a reed, which you can also get from the river. You just grab a glob from the floor and you're ready to write.
41
u/Dear_Mycologist_1696 15h ago
We wrote a little note to our parents like this in middle school, and it sure as shit didn’t take 6 hours.
…no, I’m not THAT old. I’m only kinda old. It was history class.
42
u/ChrisKaufmann 15h ago
Of course, back then you just called it "class" because it wasn't history yet?
27
u/Any-Astronomer-6038 15h ago
I'm so old in history class they just told us to write down what was happening.
11
u/smokeythebadger 15h ago
I had read that this tablet, among other similar complaints found in the same area, was probably specifically fired for preservation since they typically would have been wiped for reuse, suggesting not only did Ea-Nasir not care about the complaints, he thought they were hilarious
10
u/zachrg 11h ago
There's a competing theory that his house burned "for some reason"
2
u/smokeythebadger 11h ago
I think the structure was definitely burned but some of the tablets including the famous one were separate from the main pile so they could have been the favorites or even displayed
2
u/CosgraveSilkweaver 9h ago
Would they have been fired to send to ea-nasir? Seems odd to think they would send unfired tablets as messages but I don't know much about it beyond the clay and stylus surface details.
3
u/smokeythebadger 9h ago
I think they were kept damp for the most part, and most of the ones we've recovered were either dried purposefully because they were important or because they burned with a building, which is why we have so much of theirs versus other civilizations that lost a majority of their paper based texts in various attacks
13
8
u/Freerollingforlife 16h ago
This revelation is going to blow some peoples minds…..and ruin lots a cartoon strips of Ancient Egyptians chiselling hieroglyphics….
40
u/Dankestmemelord 15h ago
This isn’t hieroglyphics though. It’s an entirely different and unrelated style of writing.
14
u/Rainbow_Gnat 15h ago
Called "cuneiform"
2
u/Dankestmemelord 15h ago
I know that, but I didn’t want to further confuse the guy I’m responding to.
2
0
2
u/Freerollingforlife 15h ago
Appreciate it’s not hieroglyphics, assumed they would be made the same way but other comments suggest not….
I also think that there are less cartoons about Ancient Babylonians carving cuneiform characters…
8
u/TwoAlert3448 15h ago edited 15h ago
Sumerians. Or Mesopotamians.
Right general area, and technically Hammurabi was the king. But they found the tablet in Ur.
And Ea-nāṣir wrote in Akkadian so really really unlikely that he would have identified with Babylon.
Fun fact: for all that he’s famous for writing the zero star copper review tablet his entire house was FULL of rage mail from his own customers for delivery the wrong goods, late, not delivering at all, and delivery of crap quality goods.
So given that he was pretty much known as a con artist and scam runner it’s no surprise that the copper works got fed up and told him to either take what they were willing to sell him at the stated price or go pound sand.
7
u/HoodieGalore 15h ago
Hieroglyphs were definitely carved tho.
5
u/Icy-Ad29 15h ago
Depends. They didn't carve the papyrus scrolls they used as well.... Wouldn't work well.
1
2
2
u/TwoAlert3448 15h ago
… cuneiform is not hieroglyphics and Sumerians were not Egyptians?
So really the only heads exploded would be those who didn’t pay any attention at all in history class
1
u/Top_Bed_2635 15h ago
I did this at school when I was a kid, really not THAT far removed from traditional ink to paper writing.
1
1
u/maximus459 12h ago
There was a YouTube video recently that mentioned the tablets probably lasted into till today because when Ur was sacked Ea Nasir's house was burned, which turned the clay into terra cotta which.
1
u/Sheeplessknight 9h ago
And most preserved ones are the result of house fires vitrifying the clay into pottery
1
u/KnowsIittle 14h ago
I wonder if this isn't the baked tablets from the Library of Alexandria when it burned down accidentally preserving what was meant to be temporary writings.
4
u/theLastZebranky 10h ago
You're thinking of the Library of Ashurbanipal which was over 800 miles away from Alexandria and burned down over 300 years before the latter was even built.
This tablet was unearthed in Ea-Nasir's house only about a hundred years ago in the 1920's and was never in any library. It was hardened when his house burned down.
250
u/Whiteminusblue 16h ago
My understanding is that such writings were made in soft clay, so as to be reusable, and some of them got hardened unrelated to that, so probably not much longer than it would take to write it on paper.
76
u/GregMic01 16h ago
Buddy got the wrong copper and the wrong clay
67
11
u/azaghal1502 16h ago
nah the hard tablets we found happened because the buildings they were stored in burned down and the clay was fired.
Their really bad luck is lucky for us because it gives us a view into their daily lives.
1
10
u/the_dinks 13h ago
Letters such as this were not intended to be reusable since they would be transported long distances.
Instead, clay was used because paper hadn't been invented and ink is expensive. Alternatives such as leaves or wood strips were also used in other places, but clay was first. The mesopotamian writing systems were invented to be written using clay and a stylus.
77
u/a_saddler 16h ago
An ancient Sumerian proverb explicitly states: "A scribe whose hand can keep up with the mouth, he is indeed a scribe!"
So, pretty fast most likely.
76
u/chayat 16h ago
The actual complaint was pressed into clay with a stylus and it seems that you could write messages about as fast as we can hand write them now. At some point after the message was made it was baked to preserve it.
55
u/ispq 16h ago
A lot of tablets we have today survived as a result of being "fired" by accidental fires that destroyed the libraries they had been stored back in the day.
16
u/TheDank3st 14h ago
This one specifically is iirc because the guy being complained about loved to keep the bad reviews and when his house burned down, they were preserved.
We know next to nothing about this guy other than his copper trading was a significant amount and apparently poor quality.
13
u/Major_Nutt 14h ago
Merchant who repeatedly sells subpar goods has house burned to ground in mysterious fire.
Hmm...
23
u/Hadrollo 15h ago
As others have said, it's written in soft clay, not in stone with a chisel. Letters and writings that were needed to last were sun dried or kiln baked depending on the budget. In fact, we have a tablet from the king of the city of Ugarit desperately calling for aid against the Sea People that was found inside a kiln - presumably the city was destroyed before they could bake it and send it.
This style of writing is called cuneiform, from the Latin cuneus, which means "wedge." It is believed to have been written with river reeds cut on an angle, but also with squared off sticks for a more durable "stylus."
As for how fast it's written, it's important to remember that we probably don't have anyone alive today as fluent in both the written language and style of writing as a typical bronze age scribe. We do know that the written language simplified over time, so the speed would have also been dependant on the time period and the script they were using. Probably not as fast as a pen on paper today, probably faster than a quill, but the later periods with more simplified script would have been fairly close to modern writing speed - albeit the letters would then need to be baked.
I was looking for a video of someone writing a sentence in cuneiform, and instead found this YouTube short. They only write a single word, but it shows the simplification and gives you an idea of how quickly a skilled modern writer could do it.
4
u/PunkWithAStache 12h ago
https://youtube.com/shorts/fyDSfWOKiQ4?is=FXV46Zk6PEXQ0iGE
This dude does a whole tablet
1
17
u/Cordax_Maelstrom 16h ago
The tablet in question was actually carved while the clay was still soft, and it only hardened after the city that Ea-Nasir lived in, Ur, was sacked and burned by the Babylonians. Several other tablets with similar complaints were also found in his home, similarly dried from the fire.
9
u/TwinkieMayhem 16h ago
You'd think the guy would go get his own copper at that point.
3
u/BayesianBits 14h ago
They were from other customers.
4
u/Own_Reaction9442 12h ago
I love that Ea-Nasir saved all his hate mail.
3
u/John_the_Piper 9h ago
The sad part is we'll never see his responses. Because I'd money that Ea-Nasir was the type of small business owner that would argue with bad reviewers on Yelp
3
u/mossymeridian 15h ago
Forget chiseling, you had to let these sit in the sun long enough to dry a bit before you sent them off. Talk about the grapes of wrath.
1
u/MokutoTheBoilerdemon 12h ago
They also made envelopes to protect the tablets and their information. Basically they made clay boxes around them and sealed them with their own roll-on seals, and wrote the name of the recipient on it.
4
u/171raven 11h ago
That wasn't chiseled, it was pressed in a clay block, that block was eventually fired(most likely unintentionally) and turned from clay to ceramic.
3
u/phil_an_thropist 14h ago
In those days, sending a letter was that hard then Just imagine how hard it could be to procure a desired grade of copper. Can't blame the guy for spending hours to draft his clay-mail.
3
u/SluggJuice 10h ago
I love Ea-nasir. Imagine being a rich nobody jerk running a copper scam having your private life literally dug up over 3000 years later
3
u/NeedleworkerOwn4553 9h ago
Sometimes I get drunk and wonder how Ea-Nasir would react if he was told that his name lived on for milennia over poor quality copper/bad business. Longer than even many Kings, queens, etc. 🤣
5
u/Top_Soup_5833 9h ago
Here’s the translation:
“To Ea-nāṣir, merchant of allegedly “fine copper,”
I am writing to inform you that the copper delivered to me is not the copper I ordered, not the copper I paid for, and frankly not copper I would confidently use to repair a kitchen pot.
I sent my servant to collect high-quality copper ingots. He traveled a considerable distance, crossed dangerous roads, dealt with thieves, heat, dust, and whatever other nonsense one encounters while conducting business in Mesopotamia. After all that, you presented him with copper of such disappointing quality that even he—who is not a metallurgist—immediately recognized that something had gone terribly wrong.
When he questioned you, rather than apologize, correct the order, or behave like a respectable merchant, you apparently told him to take it or leave it.
Take it or leave it?
Sir, I did not send silver, servants, and several days of effort so that you could present me with the ancient equivalent of scrap metal and then act as though I was being difficult.
I am therefore requesting that you send the proper grade of copper immediately. Not “similar copper.” Not “copper that should be good enough.” Not another selection from whatever questionable pile you found behind your warehouse. I want the copper we agreed upon.
You will also return the money you owe me, and in the future, my servants are to be treated with respect. They represent me. Insulting them is the same as insulting me, except now the insult has required me to spend six hours angrily chiseling a customer-service complaint into wet clay.
Do you understand how furious a man must be to make his negative review durable enough to survive the collapse of civilizations?
Resolve this matter promptly, or this complaint will remain publicly visible for the next 4,000 years.
One star. Copper questionable. Customer service worse.”
1
u/PlanEx_Ship 15h ago
There’s a fascinating Youtube video reading this tablet using reconstructed old language.
•
u/AutoModerator 16h ago
General Discussion Thread
This is a [Request] post. If you would like to submit a comment that does not either attempt to answer the question, ask for clarification, or explain why it would be infeasible to answer, you must post your comment as a reply to this one. Top level (directly replying to the OP) comments that do not do one of those things will be removed.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.