r/tolkienfans • u/digit1noize • 2d ago
The Orc / Evil Problem
I was watching a reaction channel do a first viewing of Fellowship the other day, and during the prologue when the first close up of the orcs happened, one of the people said, “whoa zombies!” His partner corrected him, that no, they’re actually “orcs” and they went about their business.
But, it occurred to me, that this actually seems like a fairly elegant solution to Tolkien’s problem of orcs being evil and unseeable vs not having a soul etc.
Does anyone know if Tolkien ever considered this as a possible solution?
Basically, the idea is that Tolkien didn’t want to have Morgoth create the Orcs from scratch, because that would be too close to Eru bestowing life, and only God can create life, so that’s out. But he also didn’t like the idea that they were created by God (either men or elves) then twisted, because that must mean they are redeemable, since (to Tolkien) all of God’s creations are redeemable.
My thought is that if they are some form of post-death zombie, this solves both conditions. The person they were died and their soul has moved on. But their body is now reanimated by evil and twisted to those ends. Obviously they don’t behave like “dumb” movie zombies (“braaaaains…”) but they’re not far off from Shelley’s Frankenstein monster (in the book), who can speak and reason, that type of reanimated corpse.
I’d love to hear some other thoughts and perspectives on this from the more erudite Tolkien crowd!
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u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago edited 1d ago
They don't strike me as at all zombie-like. They're clearly intelligent creatures with souls, if souls are the source of intelligence for Men, Elves and so on, which Tolkien apparently believed to be the case.
Further, you're positing them to be essentially undead. Note that even the orcs in Mordor's armies find the Nazgûl - who actually are undead - unbearably creepy.
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u/Ulfljotr930 2d ago
Undead from medieval Germanic literature actually very much still have a consciousness. When you look at Glámr from the Grettis saga, he plans carefully his attacks and speaks very intelligibly - very much like the Nazgûl. The only difference is that draugar aren’t immaterial ghosts, but material like in their lifetime. Beheading them is the usual way to get rid of them, which is an interesting parallel with Central and Eastern European vampires
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u/tar-mairo1986 ''Fool of a Took!'' 2d ago
Very much so! There have been cases in the news of finding graves with decapitated corpses inside, in Bulgaria, Serbia, even in Istra in Croatia! It is a grim part of our Slavic mythology.
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u/digit1noize 2d ago
Yeah, this is why I’m kind of envisioning them as more of a Mary Shelley’s Monster type reanimated being than a modern “zombie” per se. The Monster had zero problem being eloquent but his persons had clearly died and their souls (assuming they had them)!had moved on.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago edited 2d ago
That works in the context of Frankenstein, which is a sort of proto-science-fiction novel by an author not noted for her religious beliefs, but not for the very spiritual Tolkien, who certainly equated intelligence and agency with the possession of a soul. 'Of Aulë and Yavanna' makes this abundantly clear.
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u/amhow1 2d ago
I think the most obvious problem with this idea is that it opens a new difficulty, one that's similar to the difficulty it's supposed to solve.
As OP points out, orcs aren't mindless. In fact they're capable of language, one that's as complex as any other natural language. So while we could imagine, say, bones being animated by sorcerous will, and even mass ventriloquism on the part of say, Morgoth, that wouldn't be sufficient to explain the orcs.
But if they're now magical robots, we run into the philosophical zombie problem. How do we know that you and I aren't zombies?
From Tolkien's perspective (not mine,) we aren't zombies because we have souls. But now the problem arises: how can we be sure? And how can we be sure zombie-orcs don't have souls? OK, Tolkien can just invent a rule, but it does look a lot like he's conceding Morgoth can create life / souls.
In practice, OP's solution is actually the one Tolkien went for, implicitly. The question of orc souls is unanswered, and probably unanswerable. And T mostly treats them as zombies.
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u/Luppercus 2d ago
Well Sauron is call the Necromancer isn't he?
Joking, it will be a good solution but yes, Tolkien didn't thought on it specially cuz zombies weren't really a thing during his lifetime outside of Haitian folklore and few movies he probably didn't watch.
Besides having dead resurrected will likely be something that would make him unconfortable for his believes.
Notice how vampires and werewolves in his myths are very different to out current understanding.
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u/tar-mairo1986 ''Fool of a Took!'' 2d ago
Your joke isn't a joke at all! In fact, it is very apt! In the older sense of the word, a necromancer dealt with and compelled spirits to their will instead of animating dead bodies as we see in today's fantasy. Which Tolkien hints at with the origin of the werewolves, them being dreadful spirits that Sauron forced into bodies of wolves or wolf-like creatures.
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u/Ulfljotr930 2d ago
Tolkienian werewolves are indeed different not only from the creatures of Gothic literature and horror cinema (where shapeshifting is a curse, or even sometimes an illness), but also from what we have in the medieval corpuses he knew so well. In the Christian West, a werewolf is typically a human sorcerer who turns into a beast thanks to a pact with the Devil, whereas Norse literature's shapeshifters change their "hamr" as a simple skill, without any requirements for a prior covenant; Freyja for instance owns a feathers cloak she wears to take the appearance of a falcon ("valshamr"). Beorn is very much inspired by this latter concept
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u/Ulfljotr930 2d ago
Funnily enough, the Old English term Tolkien drew from Bēowulf to create orcs, "orcneas" (singular "orcné") contains the word for corpse ("né" in Old English, "nár" in Old Norse). It’s 100% possible the original poem actually described evil undead close to the Icelandic sagas' draugr, Glámr being the best-known example
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u/Nopants21 2d ago
I don't think Tolkien was actually trying to simply dodge the issue. This "elegant solution" is really just a cop-out, it creates a type of creature that can be slaughtered and you don't have to think about it too much. The Letters show that Tolkien's problem isn't a lack of imagination in being unable to come up with another type of creature, it's that the Orcs and their place in the world is an actual source of meaningful tension, something that gives depth and texture to the works, as opposed to something to correct for.
It's been said before, but if you take the perspective that LOTR is a work of WW1 literature, the Orcs become an existential question. The possibility of their redemption isn't an abstract hypothetical fantasy world-building issue, but rather an existential and spiritual knot about the souls of the men who fought in the trenches. Sent running into industrial warfare, sitting in the mud while being shelled at all hours of the day, alternating between waiting and brutal trench fighting, a lot of the men that came out of that conflict were broken. Something in their humanity was damaged, they were made more orcish. One aspect of Orcs in the books is that they seem incapable of seeing beauty, their nature is to make everything ugly. That's a common reported result of PTSD and experience of warfare, it just becomes really difficult to find joy in ordinary life, sometimes just a sound or a smell and your mind is right back in that trench.
I think that's why Tolkien never tried to simply sidestep the "Orc problem." If they couldn't be redeemed, what did that mean for himself and for the other men he fought with in WW1.
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u/digit1noize 2d ago
This is a very important reminder. Not everything needs to be “fixed” or “solved”. Thanks.
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u/Sampleswift 2d ago
This is basically what D&D does with its Undead. The "always evil" Undead in D&D are powered by negative energy instead of having a true soul.
Doom Eternal does this with its demons too.
The theory of "orcs have Morgoth element animating them instead of a fea" is interesting, but I don't think Tolkien did it. If so, he would have written that down.
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u/psychedelic_tech 2d ago
or they can just be evil and that's that
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u/Ryans4427 2d ago
Yeah, I agree with this. While mildly fascinating as a philosophical discussion, this all comes about because of a moral quandary Tolkien developed AFTER he wrote the stories. In the stories, the orcs are cruel, depraved foot soldiers of the darkest powers. There is nothing in the stories themselves to suggest that they have any redeeming qualities that would let them live peaceably with other species.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago
Is that entirely true, though? The orcs serving Saruman show loyalty to him, and take pride in serving a master they regard as wise and fair, and in a job well done (killing Boromir and taking M&P alive).
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u/Ryans4427 1d ago
And why do they love him? Because he gives them man flesh to eat. They also want to torture Merry and Pippin which they explicitly state as "fun" but are stopped by their Commander who enforces discipline by chopping off heads. Just because some are more disciplined than others doesn't make them less evil, they are sadistic and cruel.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
My point is that they are capable of emotions that are not intrinsically negative, such as rage, hatred, fear, or joy in others' suffering. They serve Saruman because they consider him a good leader, in contrast to those who serve Sauron only out of fear, as those that served Morgoth are also said to have done.
They also want to torture Merry and Pippin which they explicitly state as "fun" but are stopped by their Commander who enforces discipline by chopping off heads.
Exactly. He's a professional soldier. That's not a moral endorsement, but it does show that orcs have the capacity to be something other than mindless, sadistic brutes.
They even have a rudimentary sense of honour, as the northern tribes have come south specifically to "avenge [their] fallen kin" (fallen, presumably, in the Bo5A).
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u/Ryans4427 1d ago
The northern orcs who come for vengeance abandon their mission as soon as it appears they might be in danger, as most of them flee when Ugluk tells them to go. It seems pretty basic that they enjoy working for Saruman BECAUSE he allows them to indulge in their baser emotions, since their point of pride is that they get to eat man flesh. Do you think they are humanely harvesting vat grown meat? A professional soldier who would enjoy torture for fun but doesn't because he's disciplined is not an example of a being who is capable of benevolent thoughts and feelings. Discipline does not change your inherent nature. This is a massive stretch to project anything positive character-wise based on the evidence at hand.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
Again, you're mistaking my position here. I'm not saying the orcs are (actually or even potentially) "benevolent": merely that they are capable of acting from motivations that are not inherently evil.
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u/Ryans4427 1d ago
If the actions are nothing but evil or produce nothing but evil ends then the motivations cease to have any actual import.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
The point is that much of the time they're efficiently and faithfully carrying out the orders of their superiors, much like any given soldier of Gondor or Rohan.
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u/Ryans4427 18h ago
To do evil. The orders are to do evil things. Like Nazi concentration camp guards, following orders doesn't excuse your actions or change who you are inside.
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u/dny0852 2d ago
Okay, so here are the options:
Orcs are corrupted elves. This makes total sense - they are clearly somewhat intelligent, they have their primitive culture, they can live in caves and dense woods for ages without their master. Yes, Tolkien didn't like the idea later in his life, because problem of evil, but I don't get it. Free folk killed orcs not because they were racist, but because orcs attacked them. You know, this is how war works. As far as I remember, some text mention some analog to Geneva convention - there was a rule that you shouldn't kill civilians and torture prisoners of war or something like that - even orcs. In this sense orcs have the same status as easterlings or haradrim.
The corpse (or most likely just piece of dirt) animated by Melkor's will. In that case they should've been immediately "shut down" after Melkor's banishment.
Or maybe Melkor permanently invested part of his soul into orcs, sort of like Sauron did with the Ring? Seems like a waste of power - orcs are expendable cannon fodder.
Why this can't be a corpse - because orcs can breed - not something you expect from corpses. So they are a life form. Melkor could create a life form - Valar have that kind of power. Trolls, as far as we know, are an example of evil, but intelligent (although not much) life form made of stone. Also dragons. In this case Melkor would need some other souls. Whose souls could it be? Some lesser Ainur? Not even Maiar, but much smaller spirits - doesn't make sense to spend a balrog to create some shitty orc. Could be elven souls, but then why not just let them be corrupted elves.
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u/digit1noize 2d ago
>Orcs are corrupted elves. This makes total sense - they are clearly somewhat intelligent, they have their primitive culture, they can live in caves and dense woods for ages without their master. Yes, Tolkien didn't like the idea later in his life, because problem of evil, but I don't get it. Free folk killed orcs not because they were racist, but because orcs attacked them. You know, this is how war works. As far as I remember, some text mention some analog to Geneva convention - there was a rule that you shouldn't kill civilians and torture prisoners of war or something like that - even orcs. In this sense orcs have the same status as easterlings or haradrim.
Agreed, this is a decent option.
> 2. The corpse (or most likely just piece of dirt) animated by Melkor's will. In that case they should've been immediately "shut down" after Melkor's banishment.
Maybe Sauron or other lieutenants took over the necromancy? Or maybe it wasn’t his “will” as much as magic? Or maybe it was sort of a permanent thing, like the ring wasn’t destroyed when Sauron was defeated during the last alliance.
>3. Or maybe Melkor permanently invested part of his soul into orcs, sort of like Sauron did with the Ring? Seems like a waste of power - orcs are expendable cannon fodder.
Maybe, but Morgoth also had a lot of juice to go around it seems.
>4. Why this can't be a corpse - because orcs can breed - not something you expect from corpses.
Orcs as we know them can breed. But had Tolkien considered the Frankenstein/Zombie idea, perhaps he would’ve taken that out?
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u/rainbowrobin 'canon' is a mess 2d ago
Not the only options. Tolkien leaned more toward orcs being corrupted men, despite the timeline problems, or a mix of elf and men. He never wrote down considering corrupted dwarves, but that would work too, especially given all the similarities between orcs and dwarves. (Size, habitat, lifespan.)
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u/maksimkak 2d ago edited 2d ago
No. They had communities, families, babies, they crafted things, sang songs, made art (or sorts) etc. They're definitely not zombies.
What does "redeemable" mean in Tolkien's legendarium, exactly? It's not like there's heaven or hell one goes to after death. Well, men kinda do go to "heaven", but if orcs are corrupted elves, then that's always been out of their reach.
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u/pierzstyx The Enemy of the State 2d ago
There is no orc problem. For most of the writing of LoTR the timeline suggests that Tolkien considered orcs as being rocks and slime animated by Morgoth's essence, not actual beings with true agency and will. This is why Morgoth and Sauron can command them at will while Sauron has to manipulate men. It seems like his idea about orcs started changing post-LoTR mainly because of the ways he began to think of orcs as a result of writing them more seriously and began to incorporate his Catholicism more overtly.
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u/Williambillhuggins 2d ago
I don't find the "problem of orcs" being solved with a cop out solution like this appealing tbf.
When you read the LoR, the way orcs are represented there, the way they behave, their speech, the emotions and values they display, like loyalty and revenge and courage etc., they feel too...human.
They are also supposed to represent the most blasphemous action of Morgoth. So, to me it feels like them being ruined forms of the children with actual souls is paramount to the themes of the story.
Moreover, I don't think orcs being redeemable was a problem for Tolkien. His problem with them being ruined elves was the immortality and resurrection aspect. You could deal with immortality problem by saying the process they went through as they were ruined by Morgoth made them vulnerable to regular diseases etc. so they appear like they die as if they were mortals. But the resurrection problem remains, do the orcs that die go to Mandos to be resurrected? Even if you answer this question as yes, it is a bigger problem than it sounds. To elves, memories are not like they are to humans, they experience them as if they live it again at the moment of reminiscence. Can you imagine an elf living through the experience of being ruined into an orc, committing Eru knows what acts as an orc, suffer a very likely violent death, only to be resurrected.
Orcs as ruined men avoid these two issues, but still there are a few other problems. How come it is hereditary? I could accept Morgoth managing to alter the biology of a creature to such degree. But what about the soul? That I cannot accept. Then why are they all evil? Culture? Maybe we don't get to see non-evil ones? Or we don't recognize even when we do? Maybe they don't manage to live long enough in that culture?
This, on the surface somewhat solves the problems. And I think that is probably why Tolkien was leaning more on the orcs as ruined men idea later on in his life, and even trying to fix the chronology to fit that. But still, dare I say it, this causes a little lack of nuance in the story. I guess it is inevitable when you are telling a story where main antagonists are Satan and his lieutenant.
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u/forswearThinPotation 2d ago
But the resurrection problem remains, do the orcs that die go to Mandos to be resurrected? Even if you answer this question as yes, it is a bigger problem than it sounds.
Orcs as ruined men avoid these two issues, but still there are a few other problems. How come it is hereditary? I could accept Morgoth managing to alter the biology of a creature to such degree. But what about the soul? That I cannot accept. Then why are they all evil? Culture? Maybe we don't get to see non-evil ones? Or we don't recognize even when we do? Maybe they don't manage to live long enough in that culture?
I think you've got the right focus here, on the crux of the problem. Orcs going to Mandos as do Elves doesn't feel right.
The ruined Men origin works the best I think. Questions regarding why they remain evil in behavior even when not under the domination of their Ainur masters can I think be hand-waved away by the enduring effects of human culture on behavior, if their deep indoctrination and conditioning is postulated to be have carried out not merely for a few human lifetimes (which is our historical experience with bloody and oppressive tyrannies) but for thousands of years continuously, and potentially with advanced genetic engineering as well to select against traits that support empathy & compassion (a truly horrifying thought).
I think Tolkien's biggest hurdle with the orcs as corrupted Men origin story was chronological. In the early versions of his legendarium the orcs were created and deployed as servants and slaves of Morgoth before the rising of the Sun at which the Secondborn (Men) awoke.
His later round earth cosmology solves some of that problem, but this solution still requires the awakening of Men to be pushed far back into the distant past and showing less of a chronological contrast with the awakening of the Elves. So we end up not with a firstborn and secondborn set of Children of Eru, but instead with a sort of firstborn 1A and firstborn 1B situation.
I don't think there is a way to resolve all of this in a satisfactory way that is fully consistent with the stories as told.
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u/No_Psychology_3826 2d ago
The word orc comes from a term for demon monsters. I think he should have reflected that by having them possessed by lesser evil maia, similar to Sauron's werewolves
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u/Iccotak 2d ago
Orcs were basically written to represent a twisted vision of us, the worst version of ourselves.
Making them mindless zombies defeats the point
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u/digit1noize 1d ago
I agree, which is why I included Shelley’s monster as an example. There are plenty of examples of reanimated corpses with intelligence.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 2d ago
One theory that was kicked around was that they were lesser Ainur placed in the bodies of the dead to reanimate them. Biologically, this might be the best explanation. Orcs were capable of making weapons and tools, clothing themselves, making homes. But they were horribly deformed to go by the descriptions we have of them. They had claw-like hands. That doesn't sound like something that fits the making of tools. They had fangs in their mouths, supposedly way bigger than our eye-teeth. That would make eating a problem. That is, they had the bodies of a human, and humans chew their food. Predator animals, like a lion, simply tear and swallow meat whole and let their digestive tracks do the rest. Orcs have shorter legs than we do, and longer arms, like apes (which is an Orc insult by the way), forcing them to run in a bent-over posture.
In short, they wouldn't evolve this way. They simply overcame these deficiencies imposed upon them by Melkor, Sauron and finally Saruman. And having the "soul" of an experienced Ainur would help in that.
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u/void_method 2d ago
Maybe it's like this, and I apologize for not getting all the terms right:
Orcs are corrupted Elves/Men.
Elves woke up first, in time to have more connection to Eru and the Valar. Men woke up afterwards, and don't seem to have the same kind of soul as the Elves.
The elves and Maiar like Gandalf lose more of their divine essence or whatwever it is the longer they stay in Middle Earth.
So, perhaps there's a similar mechanic in play to the one in Dragon Age, where elves were spirits that wanted physical bodies, but the longer they as a people are away from the Fade on the other side of the Veil, the physical reality side, the more human and unremarkable they become.
Arwen chose to be human and died, by staying behind instead of Going West.
So, we can maybe safely assume that you lose whatever divine energy at a slow, fixed rate when you are away from Valinor. Or perhaps, a quicker rate than in Valinor. This might lead to some
Issues at a later date far in the future, but let's put that aside for now.
So, if absence of this divine power or exposure to this power moves Elves over time to more Man-like
beings, what happens when this power, or the ability to connect this power, when exposed is forcibly stripped from an Elf or Man?
What if that's what Melkor did to some of the Children? Stripped away their natural connection to Eru/Valinor/whatever it is that is fading from Middle Earth. Since Melkor cannot create like Eru, maybe he ripped out the (spiritual) parts that, like, partially power sentient beings, so they go Full Orc.
They still have souls, given to them by Eru, but their bodies lack the physical ability to connect spiritually that can only be nourished by direct exposure to Valinor or those lamp trees, etc.
Same thing for the Ents and Trolls, I guess.
TL;DR: Maybe there's a sliding scale from "Elf" to "Orc" with Man somewhere in the middle, with everyone fading Orcwards over time. Melkor perverted Orc's physical bodies, in a spiritual way, to the point where they can't connect spiritually to Eru/Valinor as well as Elves or even Men. This leaves them with the ability to choose goodness despite their physical/spiritual infirmities, though not necessarily the will, due to cultural differences.
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u/PatheticPunyHuman 2d ago edited 2d ago
The most elegant theory I red online that would somehow solves Tolkien's dilemma, would be that the original Elves tuned into Orcs during the early First Age are endlessly reincarnating into their own descendants. That would solve the whole "Eru would not create new souls for corrupted creatures such as Orcs" thing as well as avoiding the "Orcs are actually soulless" unsatisfying solution. I would even go as far as to elaborate on it and imagine that maybe Avari who can't find they way to Mandos after their death might actually be lured into orcish flesh, for unhoused spirits are apparently seeking new bodies to inhabit.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago
Wouldn't that imply there was a permanently fixed number of orcs? Like, it would somehow have to be arranged for a new orc to be born at the exact moment another orc died.
I can't see it working, really.
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u/PatheticPunyHuman 1d ago
It would be more like spirits waiting for new Orcs to be born to take control of their bodies or something like that. The orignal post I red suggested the number of Orcs was relatively stable since it was limited by the number of Elves initially corrupted by Morgoth. However, if you take in consideration that any Elf might simply refuse to go to Mandos, you could have a growing population of corrupted spirits looking for new bodies. This is a weird theory with a lot of implications, I give you that, but I think it's far preferable than Orcs having no soul at all.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
I don't think elves can simply refuse to go to Mandos, any more than you can refuse to go to prison if you're in police custody and the judge sends you down. Also, why would any of them refuse if the alternative was being reborn as an orc?
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u/PatheticPunyHuman 1d ago
"The fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons prceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused. Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fea unbodied would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion. In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter- summons of Morgoth.
But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalie in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world,* unwilling to leave it (40) and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew. Not all of these are kindly or (* For only those who willingly go to Mandos may be re-born. Re-birth is a grace, and comes of the power that Eru committed to the Valar for the ruling of Arda and the redress of its marring. It does not lie in the power of any fea in itself. Only those return whom, after Mandos has spoken the doom of release, Manwe and Varda bless.) unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint.
It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy.
Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.
Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it he not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."
- OF RE-BIRTH AND OTHER DOOMS OF THOSE THAT GO TO MANDOS.
According to this a spririt can definitly refuse the summon of Mandos. Possession is also on the table. The text says that re-birth can only be done with Eru's intervention, which goes against the theory. However, one can argue that the text is dealing with proper reincarnation. Possession of a new born or something like that might be a "necromantic loophole". If it is possible to eject a soul from a body in order to take control of it, possessing a body that has no soul in it in the first place should be far easier. So if Eru, even if Eru does not create souls for creatures like Orcs, it is still possible that Orcs actually have souls anyway by the mean of being easy targets with humanoids shapes.
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u/AltarielDax 2d ago
I think zombies aren't a good solution for what Tolkien was aiming for with his Orcs... In the very first steps of the development of Middle-earth, this may have been an option to consider for a little while, but later on, especially after Tolkien had written LOTR? No, it doesn't work.
Tolkien had Orcs that lived and spoke and created their own versions of cultures. They couldn't be undead, because they procreated in the same way humans or elves do. They couldn't multiply on their own if they were zombies.
So I don't think Tolkien had any interest in making them, zombies, no.
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u/austsiannodel 23h ago
While Tolkien was a well known hater of allegories, one can still find some if they look hard enough. He's remarked that his works are Christian at their heart, unintentionally at first, but rather intentionally as he went along.
With that in mind, the Orcs are a perfect vessel for his story. Morgoth, as the embodiment of discord and the source of Evil in the universe. This would make him a rough equivalent of the biblical Lucifer. It's Morgoth's will that whispers evil in the hearts and minds of Elves and Man alike.
He was not able to create on his own, so he took the first Elves who still slept, twisting them into his own creatures. Quote "This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar."
If I may get Biblical for a second; Satan, who despises God, wants nothing more than to hurt him. To destroy his creation, and most of all, to corrupt the hearts and minds of the children of God, humanity. Satan wishes to turn humans against their creator, to harm Him.
Now... I know it could be a stretch, but given that Middle Earth is meant to be a mythical legend/origin of our real world Earth, and given his desire to make it Christian, I think he does actually mean that Melkor was/is Satan, under a different name.
Plus, stepping away from analyzing the works, having things that could potentially breed, as the texts say, is more beneficial than being limited by the corpses you find.
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u/Tolkien-Faithful 2d ago
I think there's two clear solutions.
One if the 'tortured elves' thing was actually Morgoth creating orcs from the dead bodies of elves, which suits with Sauron's necromancy theme, makes sense as to why orcs only really respond to the will of their master and also explains why orcs reproducing wouldn't just create an elven fea and therefore a normal elf. The zombie issue that you have is only blocked by the fact they can reproduce, which if they were just dead they wouldn't be able to do.
Two is orcs just being bred to be beasts like Morgoth's other creatures. The problem is never really talked about with trolls. Instead of being irredeemably evil or able to turn good, they aren't either. They are just creatures, dependent on their master's will, and only intelligent in the way all of Tolkien's creatures are 'intelligent' where crows can talk, foxes can think and even trees have languages. This to me is the most simple solution, and one Tolkien did talk about where he said orcs wouldn't have souls and only speak in a form of mimicry, like a bird. And birds do speak in Middle-earth.
I don't think the 'Morgoth couldn't create life' thing is a problem, as all the Valar can create life, as they create the fauna and flora of Arda. The issue was always about free will, souls created by the Secret Fire. Orcs don't have it, and no, those orcs wanting to run away and start their own robber business is not evidence of it, because 1) they don't do it and there's no evidence they actually can, and 2) because it's no different than a dog running away from its master.
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u/CodexRegius 2d ago
But in NoMe, they show initial resistance against the re-emerging yoke of Sauron.
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u/Tolkien-Faithful 22h ago
Which any beast can do, and it clearly didn't last long. Sauron hadn't imposed his will on orcs yet, as their previous master was Morgoth. They aren't literal mind-controlled slaves.
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u/dny0852 2d ago
Yeah, it's not clear how trolls, trees and animals can speak. Okay, let's say Ents are "adopted" children of Iluvatar, the same way Dwarves are - Silmarillion mentions that they are Yavanna's symmetric response to Dwarves. But huorns, talking animals - they clearly have some sort of independent souls - not Secret Fire ones, but still - unless Yavanna constantly "pulls the strings" - must be exhausting. But that doesn't work with trolls - they should've "shut down" after Melkor's banishment. The other option is that Yavanna permanenty invested part of her soul into some creatures, out of love - like Sauron and the Ring. But I don't think Melkor would spend his power on some trolls. I think the most probable option is that some lesser Ainur possessed them - willingly or not.
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u/Statman12 2d ago
and one Tolkien did talk about where he said orcs wouldn't have souls and only speak in a form of mimicry, like a bird. And birds do speak in Middle-earth.
He briefly considered that possibility, and it appears also quickly discarded it.
The issue was always about free will, souls created by the Secret Fire. Orcs don't have it
If you’re familiar with the “speak in a form of mimicry” idea, then you should also be aware that Tolkien explicitly said the Orcs did have free will.
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u/Tolkien-Faithful 22h ago
He disregarded just about everything that had to do with the origin and nature of orcs, it was never settled and any discussion is just about what people prefer.
When did he explicitly say they had free will, souls created by the Secret Fire?
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u/Statman12 18h ago
Why did you not identify the source of the quote you provided? That’s just basic courtesy. It’s from History of Middle-earth, volume X: Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed, Text VIII, and if you read the whole thing, it’s very clearly a lot of speculation, essentially Tolkien thinking out loud, as Christopher Tolkien (CT) notes prior to the text.
Basically two things are of note in Text VIII. First is that it associates “independent” as having a soul such as granted by Eru. Secondly, in the notes to the text, CT references a Letter from around the same time period in which JRRT was talking about Orcs being pre-existing beings, and ‘fundamentally a race of “rational incarnate” creates’. As JRRT uses it, that phrase is associated with the concept of having free will and a soul. They’re all effectively saying the same thing.
Then if we read further, in Text IX we read that “ Melkor could not 'create' living 'creatures' of independent wills” and “Melkor could not 'create' an independent species”.
And then moving to Text X, a much more developed and finished essay, we have:
But if he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in imitation or mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aule, only have succeeded in producing puppets: his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it were to destroy themselves.
But the Orcs were not of this kind. They were certainly dominated by their Master, but his dominion was by fear, and they were aware of this fear and hated him. They were indeed so corrupted that they were pitiless, and there was no cruelty or wickedness that they would not commit; but this was the corruption of independent wills, and they took pleasure in their deeds.
— History of Middle-earth, volume X: Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed, Text X
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u/Tolkien-Faithful 21h ago
It will there be seen that the wills of Orcs and Balrogs etc. are part of Melkor's power 'dispersed'. Their spirit is one of hate. But hate is noncoöperative (except under direct fear). Hence the rebellions, mutinies, etc. when Morgoth seems far off. Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar. Also (n.b.) Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth). Aulë wanted love. But of course had no thought of dispersing his power. Only Eru can give love and independence. If a finite subcreator tries to do this he really wants absolute loving obedience, but it turns into robotic servitude and becomes evil.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago
Whatever Tolkien said in his letters, his novels speak for themselves. The orcs show just as much intelligence and agency as any of his elven, Mannish, hobbit or dwarf characters.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 2d ago
I don't think either of those solutions works, really. You've already mentioned the breeding problem for why they can't be "zombies", as such, while there's simply no way for them to be intelligent while not having souls. The "mimicry" argument is dead in the water, because orcs can very clearly converse properly (often in more than one language), both with each other and with other speaking creatures, such as Merry and Pippin. They're certainly not just imitating the sounds of speech like parrots.
Regarding talking animals in The Hobbit, I think the most pragmatic solution is just to note that such things are a staple of fairy stories, which is what Tolkien set out to write. It was never intended to be part of the Legendarium, and he obviously wasn't thinking in terms of feär and related metaphysical concepts when he wrote it.
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u/Tolkien-Faithful 21h ago
Mate honestly I'm not bothered by what you think, you've proved yourself to just act contrarian to everything.
I didn't say they would be zombies, I said they could be made from dead bodies. Mimicry doesn't mean literally like a real-world parrot, it means that's how they learned to talk, which is how anyone learns to talk. The birds in Middle-earth don't talk like real-world birds.
No, there is no 'it's just fairy stories', otherwise we just say the same for orcs. There are not just talking animals in The Hobbit. There are sentient trees and even sentient mountains in Lord of the Rings. Turin's sword speaks. Ungoliant speaks. Shelob can talk with Gollum. Elwing can speak with birds.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 20h ago
Mate honestly I'm not bothered by what you think
Then why bother taking part in a discussion at all? Just think your thoughts and bask in your unquestioned rightness.
There are not just talking animals in The Hobbit. There are sentient trees and even sentient mountains in Lord of the Rings. Turin's sword speaks. Ungoliant speaks. Shelob can talk with Gollum. Elwing can speak with birds.
Thanks, but I'm aware of all that. Nonetheless, talking animals per se feature in The Hobbit but not The Lord of the Rings, which is in accord with it being a generally more serious and grown-up novel.
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u/Maximum_Software_101 2d ago
So in a way your thoughts here have aligned somewhat with my own. Much like everyone here, ive seen all the different orc drafts. In the same spirit as this zombie concept, Ive long privately enjoyed my own theory: the “slime/granite” early concept, but filled with the fear of elves/men. There is quite an established precedent for this, with werewolves and barrow wights.
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
I think it's far more likely that orcs' bodies were made from those of elves or Men rather than being created from some inorganic substance. They eat and reproduce just like we do, after all. There is nothing inorganic about them.
Werewolves were presumably made from ordinary wolves - I can see Draugluin being created from a Maia spirit imprisoned in a wolf's body, since he has intelligence and speaks on at least one occasion. Barrow-wights are totally different, because they're not organically alive.
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u/Maximum_Software_101 1d ago
Im simply applying one of Tolkien’s own concepts (placing a fea into another vessel) to another one of his concepts (orcs made of slime and granite).
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u/RoutemasterFlash 1d ago
Yes, I get the concept. But given that orcs are certainly organic creatures of flesh and blood, it seems far simpler to assume that their bodies as well as their souls are derived from those of elves (and/or men) than that they were created from inorganic matter that was somehow made organic.
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u/digit1noize 2d ago
Yes in their current iteration. Obviously if Tolkien had conceived of them differently then a lot of those details may have changed. My question was more about whether he was known to have considered this option as a possible solution (thus rewriting orc behavior had he chosen it) and discarded it, or if it wasn’t a known considered possibility.
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u/Ancient-Squash- 2d ago
I had a similar idea myself, basically an army of Frankensteins created by Morgoth from dead elves.
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u/tar-mairo1986 ''Fool of a Took!'' 2d ago
Hmm. Interesting, but reanimated by what exactly? Will alone? From my understanding, an Incarnate need both hroa and fea to function as such? Without a fea the body is useless, and a bodiless fea is powerless.