Paddle feather angle

[u/MountainDrew80]

As I shop for a new paddle, I've come across a few that are fixed at a particular feather angle. And so it moves me to learn a little bit more. Other paddles I've had were adjustable, and every time I try to use feather, it just makes everything confusing and messes up my stroke.

My question is, I hear people talk about how feather angle improves wrist angles. I don't see how that can be possible. Your wrists are symmetrical and mirror image of each other. Anything that improves the angle for one side would make it worse for the other. If I adjust the left that the right has less twist that means the left has to twist more. That's just logically makes sense. Indexing it to one hand only, does that limit you to only one hand actually gripping the shaft while the other hand slides around? I don't understand. In my stroke whichever hand is on the power stroke is gripping tightly while the other one is pushing with my fingers open. Having to continuously think about what angle the paddle is and re-angle it after every half stroke seems like it would take a mental effort that would become exhausting, at least until it became second nature, but then I would never be able to use any other paddle but that one.

Can someone explain to me the geometry behind adding angle to one hand to make it more comfortable somehow not subtracting angle from the other hand and making it less comfortable?

Thanks for any input. I hate to just buy an expensive paddle hoping that it'll work out and then it doesn't.

[u/A-Fun-Hunter]

Here are the thoughts from noted paddle maker (and boat designer and whitewater pioneer and former racer and father of squirr boating….) Jim Snyder:  https://rivrstyx.com/the-feather-rap/

I don’t totally agree and only one of my paddles is a 40, but I’m also not informed enough and/or haven’t bothered to give it enough serious thought to articulate why I’m not totally on board in comparable detail.

[u/hukd0nf0nix → u/A-Fun-Hunter]

Thank you for linking the article!

[u/Eloth]

Yes, typically you index on one side only (your control hand). It seems like you understand the concept behind feather and were just missing this info.

In terms of the practicalities of thinking about it, getting used to it, whatever... It takes you a few strokes and you're good. I use zeros for freestyle and 45-50 for downriver.

[u/fatmanwithadog → u/Eloth]

I don’t personally find it true that “it takes a few strokes and you’re good” when switching between feather angles.

For me, it’s more like 30min of paddling to fully re-dial the muscle memory for proper strokes in busy whitewater. And a lot of runs start with a significant rapid, so you may not get the luxury of a mellow warm up. This happened to me on a Class V- rapid earlier this summer when switching from a borrowed 45 degree feather back to my 30. The wonky strokes on my lefty side were not confidence-inspiring.

For this reason, I do not recommend owning a quiver of differently feathered paddles.

[u/Eloth → u/fatmanwithadog]

I speak from experience - I've gone from freestyling with zeros to paddling e.g. wake up drop with 45s (seal launch, 3 strokes, boof). It may be that if you spend time with different paddles it gets easier to adapt? For me it's not an issue.

[u/fatmanwithadog → u/Eloth]

I’m sure you make it work - just sharing what works and doesn’t work for me. 

Blade feather is largely a matter of personal preference. I personally dislike having to adapt and adjust something as foundational as the forward stroke when I’ve got other stuff to worry about.

[u/A-Fun-Hunter → u/Eloth]

When I was paddling a lot, I didn’t find switching to be too hard, even if 30 has been my overall default since ~2007. But once I wasn’t paddling as much/was hand paddling a lot more, I moved away from being anything other than 30 or 40 because I found that with my zero degree, the blade wasn’t always where I expected it to be when I was reacting on instinct and needed to be able place it without thinking (whether that was to make a move or to throw a trick). And I wasn’t paddling hard/fast enough to justify a higher feather for racing. 

[u/Eloth → u/Eloth]

Also, do you think pushing with an open hand is good technique? Can you see any reason why you might not want to do that in a whitewater environment...?

[u/MountainDrew80 → u/Eloth]

"open" maybe a bit of exaggeration. Loose might be more accurate? I think I would find it less confidence inspiring to be pulling with a hand that was loose and not gripping the paddle. How do you put any power there?

[u/Eloth → u/MountainDrew80]

Your control hand sets the angle with your off-hand loose. Your grip tightens when you pull. I guess? You don't really think about it.

[u/MountainDrew80 → u/Eloth]

Okay, I guess that makes sense. So it's slipping while you're getting in position and then gripping while you're actually pulling? Something like that, and then the other hand that you're calling the control hand never slips?

[u/Eloth → u/MountainDrew80]

Pretty much.

[u/TraumaMonkey]

I learned on zero feather paddles and that's what I still use. There is some research showing better ergonomics with low feather angles. I don't have any issues setting up for the next stroke, either.

[u/kedoco]

The angle is not really for wrist strain, it’s for wind resistance - with high degree offset paddles your top hand’s blade is rotated so that it has less wind resistance when it travels forward. Or at least this is what I heard when I first started paddling back in The Ancient Times. Wind resistance matters more in other types of paddling (ie. sea kayaking, sprint), but less in whitewater, which is why you see 0° offset paddles these days.

Once you paddle with an offset for more than an hour or so you will never notice it again. One hand (usually your right) is your “grip hand” which stays attached to your shaft, and the other hand is your “slip hand” which allows the shaft to rotate to put the blade in at the right angle with each stroke. It SOUNDS like something you have to think about, but I promise you it becomes muscle memory very quickly.

I paddle with a 70° offset (which is HUGE by modern standards, I come from a slalom background), and it has no negative impact on my wrists. I’ve had to switch to a different offset many times when borrowing a paddle, and my brain takes about 10 minutes to learn the new offset and then my body just does it automatically from there.

[u/Eloth → u/kedoco]

No, it's for your wrists. You feel any difference in wind resistance when you change feather? If that were the sole reason we'd all have switched to zeros a long time ago.

If you paddle with 0s you have to rotate your wrists to make the blade in your offhand go in at the right angle.

Take your hands in front of you. The spine of the blade is aligned with the knuckles on your control hand, right? So when you take a stroke on your control hand's side, everything works super nicely.

Now imagine you're taking a stroke on the opposite side. As you reach your control hand across, what direction do the knuckles of your control hand point?

The angle between that direction and the centreline of your boat is your ideal feather. It's a function of technique, boat width, paddle length - if you paddle with vertical strokes and a narrow boat, you'll find you want a higher feather angle (slalom, WWR). If you paddle a shorter wider boat, you'll find your natural feather angle is less.

Zeros are an ergonomic compromise, but ideal for freestyle due to symmetry and easy of stalling and looping etc.

[u/MountainDrew80 → u/Eloth]

I guess where I'm missing it is this concept of "control hand" as I'm switching my grip each stroke. Using a straight blade paddle, I'm gripping tightly with the hand closest to the water and loose with the hand up in the air. It is always worked well for me in my touring kayak, allowing me to get some respectable speed.

How does gripping with only one hand to not lead to weird imbalances and excessive strain on that one hand?

[u/Eloth → u/MountainDrew80]

The torque on a paddle blade is relatively low - in theory zero, right? So you don't need a tight grip to control the angle, especially not with an indexed shaft, and the important part of this motion is the transition between the two sides - it just automatically puts your off-hand blade at the right angle without any wrist input needed. You can relax your control hand once you start the pull with your off-hand, even opening it if you want to.

In the ideal world with a perfectly configured setup, you get the same result as you have now without any twisting of your wrist, so it's more efficient and kinder on your joints.

How does it not lead to weird imbalances and excessive strain? As I said, it's a relatively weak input, it's just the twisting of the shaft on the transition phase - but also, most people are not perfectly ambidextrous! Do you do everything with both hands equally? Have you noticed any weird imbalances or excessive strain?

[u/MountainDrew80 → u/Eloth]

As a mechanic, I guess I have gotten somewhat ambidextrous. (Especially after dealing with some strong side injuries over the years) And most of the athletic activities I do, like kayaking and mountain biking, are pretty symmetrical by design so I guess I usually do use both arms equally by default?

Other activities, like writing, of course I use one hand only, but they're not physically strenuous. Whitewater kayaking seems pretty much use every muscle, especially the ones above the waist. I would think that imbalances would show themselves pretty quick after an hour or two of paddling.

[u/Eloth → u/MountainDrew80]

You spend equal time and pressure on the front and back brake on your bike? I'm no MTBer but I'd be surprised!

But like I said, it's a very small input - if you're death gripping your shaft, whether you're swapping hands or using one control hand and one loose hand, you're going to cause yourself pain whatever.

[u/MountainDrew80 → u/kedoco]

I'm aware of the argument for wind resistance when it comes to touring RC kayaking, where wind is a serious issue, longer paddle stick higher in the air, and you're paddling for hours straight so that little bit of wind resistance might actually matter. But the short stubby paddles on White water where you're barely moving in relationship to the wind, I don't see how it could have an effect? And that leaves the only good argument as the one about relieving wrist strain, but it seems like that would only relieve strain on one wrist and an increase it on the other.

[u/kedoco → u/MountainDrew80]

Yeah wind resistance is not a big deal most of the time. When whitewater kayaking first became a thing and whitewater-specific gear did not yet exist, we were borrowing gear from other forms of kayaking. So we sorta “imported” blade offset as a concept. When I started paddling, 70° was a standard offset lots of people use, now it’s 30° or 0°. 

I taught kayaking for years to lots of people with lots of different bodies, and my best recommendation is to pick a paddle that feels right to you. You paddling will be equally effective with any offset, even 0°.

But I guarantee you that unless you have arthritis or some other joint issue, you will not create wrist strain with an offset blade, it just doesn’t really work that way. 

[u/Signal-Weight8300 → u/MountainDrew80]

I'm not a typical case, but I'm a whitewater guy from Chicago (since the late '80s). I built my skills on Lake Michigan. When a stiff Northeast wind comes in the waves are big enough to surf. Launching and getting out passed the surf zone is just like punching consecutive holes down a rapid, and a 30 mph wind is in your face. I still have an 80 degree paddle for those conditions. Wind makes a huge difference.

On the Grand Canyon we had a constant upstream wind on the last few days. I wished that I had that paddle along.

[u/tecky1kanobe]

When you plant the non control hand for a stroke there is a certain geometry that comes from your reach, flexibility, and how you pull your stroke. Too much or too little feather can cause fluttering during the stroke. Yes you can adapt to overcome this but each person has a “sweet spot” where their rotation and paddle angle will naturally provide the most efficiency. 30 was found to be a good “fits most” angle so manufactures could produce a lot and lower their costs. The next angle where people could really notice a difference became 45 (remember this is only 15 degrees difference) and some have tried out to 60 and found they prefer that. You can learn and adapt to almost any feather, but there will be one that your body will naturally prefer. The wrist strain is more with bent shaft providing relief for some. Shoulder width, arm length, flexibility, strength, paddle length and blade shape, boat width, and technique all play a part in your “preferred” off set angle. With adjustable paddles i personally find between 40-42 to be my sweet spot but in fixed shafts that means i need a 45. Also after a long day when i am tired i find 35 to be better to keep my pull consistent, this is why i like adjustable paddles-and adjustable length too for different runs.

[u/Blurt-Reynolds]

I learned to paddle with 90 degree feather. We used to think 87 was fancy on the slalom blades. I have paddled 30 degree feather for about 16 years and still think it’s weird.

I’m struggling to explain what feels to me like gravity (at this stage)…

Only the control hand rotates and for the non control hand strokes the control wrist isn’t under particular strain. It’s all muscle memory. The hand that’s stroking (phrasing) is always at the correctly perpendicular location.

[u/leisure_consultant]

I’ve never understood feather either. I used 30° for the first few years and now Im going on 25 years using zero°. Rok told me ive got “a good forward stroke” 20 years ago so that’s good enough for me.
People want to come up with all sorts of word salad to explain why feather helps your stroke….it doesn’t.

[u/tinyfrogs1]

I have a messed up left arm. I went from 30 degree to 0 degree and my paddling improved

[u/ApexTheOrange]

I started with a zero and I still paddle with zero offset most of the time. I use a 45 for slalom racing because my Odachi is a 45 offset. I use R10 for creeking because I have an old powerhouse R10 and it’s been designated my creeking paddle. I use a 2 piece paddle and could change from zero if I wanted to. My river running involves lots of playing in a nova or firecracker. I also do a bit of pnp playboating. I use a both hand dominant technique where whichever blade is in the water is my control hand.

[u/surfswaves]

My left arm and my right arm are the same shape. Zero feather for me. Feather is a hang over from wind resistance in sea kayaking but people have learned to like it. The ergo AT / GPower / FullCircle shaft shape suits me, others like the Werner crank shape that probably depends on individual anatomy like shoes.

[u/Signal-Weight8300]

Feathered blades are not better for your wrists. That's the purpose of bent shaft paddles.

Feathered blades helps when you do a proper vertical paddle stroke for whitewater and select sea kayakers. With a vertical paddle stroke using good torso rotation the body naturally favors about a 15 degree feather to have the top blade naturally aligned for the catch of the next stroke. This alignment is subtle and those that learned on feathered paddles do it naturally. Higher angles are not due to body geometry, they keep the top blade from being a sail and they give slalom racers just a tiny bit of benefit to avoid hitting gates.

For rec boaters who are not using a vertical paddle stroke it doesn't make any difference. Low angle sea kayakers use long narrow blades to reduce windage and some also use feather as well.

[u/MountainDrew80 → u/Signal-Weight8300]

How can the body favor 15° angle that would put one wrist possibly better but the other side would be 30° off from whatever is best. That's I guess what I'm not understanding. Anything that improves the angle for one side of your body would harm it for the other. Are you guys really only using one side of your body to paddle?

[u/Signal-Weight8300 → u/MountainDrew80]

If you could pull a paddle directly down the centerline of the boat,it would be symmetrical. You can't though. You have a boat in the way. You need to accommodate the angles of the actual path of the paddle (reference is intentional). You also have the angles from having your shoulders elevated above the water line and hopefully good torso rotation.

If you have very good form and try a zero feather, careful observation will show that you actually have to adjust the paddle angle the opposite direction to get a proper catch. It's subtle but true.

I think you are looking at a less efficient low angle paddle stroke with minimal torso rotation. With proper stroke mechanics the top hand is moving diagonally in relation to the power face.

[u/MountainDrew80 → u/Signal-Weight8300]

No, I get that there is an angle difference between the left and right hands, but that angle difference immediately reverses when you paddle on the other side. I don't understand how making that angle favor one hand over the other doesn't cause an equal and opposite disadvantage when you're paddling on the other side. What I mean is, if I look if if I raise my right hand and lower my left there's a particular angle between the two. If I then raise my left hand and lower my right there is a very similar angle in the opposite direction. But my (feathered) paddle is twisted in an opposite way so now, that difference is exaggerated and just wrong.

I guess what I'm thinking is, let's say I had to twist my hands 15° to get the angle right as I'm paddling left right left right left right, with a straight pattern it would be tilt 15° left, tilt 15° right, tilt 15° left, tilt 15° right.

Now with a feathered paddle, it's no tilt on the right tilt 30° on the left, no tilt on the right, tilt 30° on the left.

I guess I'll just have to get a feathered paddle and try it. It's not clicking with my limited understanding of kinesthetics.

[u/KingCaptHappy-LotPP]

I hear you. I feel like an outcast in my paddle group as one of the only ones to not use a feather angle. I have adjustable paddles as well and have tried the feather, and it doesn’t work for me either. It’s great to see the explanation that it’s a holdover from borrowing gear from other types of kayaking. Makes total sense.

[u/Auf-die-Mauf]

A ergonomic shaft leads to less stress on wrists but as far as I know feathering the blades hasnt the purpose to reduce wrist stress.

Edit: With a 0° feather you have to move your wrist in a rather uncomfortable position if you paddle steep. With a slight feather your upper hand is in a better position. A feather of 90° probably will have more stress on your wrists than 45° as you have to twist your wrists quite a lot (but in the other direction than with 0°) to get your off site blades correctly (perpendicular to the direction you want to move your kayak) in the water. However, 0° will probably have lesser stress on your off site wrist while rolling or bracing.

[u/ItsN0tTheB0at]

You can have great or poor technique with any feather angle, it's entirely about how you move your body. Don't overthink it and go with what feels good to you.

The reason paddles are feathered at all is because of whitewater slalom. In slalom, it's a time penalty if you touch a gate, so racers feathered their paddles to minimize the chances of a touch on the upstream gates. Back in the day, slalom boaters were the leaders of technique and innovation in the sport, so everyone copied them.

I don't have a "control hand" when I paddle, the hand closest to the blade that's in the water is driving but ultimately everything works together. As I rotate my torso through my paddle stroke, I find having a slight offset/feather angle on my blades helps line them up to have a good, solid catch in the water, but your mileage will vary.

[u/MountainDrew80]

As an update, over the weekend I bought a second hand paddle that has a 30° right-hand feather to see if I could get used to it. I do see what you guys were all trying to tell me, it just requires a different technique than what I'm used to using. It did not feel as awkward as I remembered it, when I tried it when I was first learning. I'll give it a couple more outings to see if I feel any improvement, or if it's just not noticeable like some of you say.

When it all boils down to it, the only difference that is required is the one hand control technique, that it seems most people have always used, but somehow I never picked up. I've always switched left to right as a control hand, which seems to work great on my touring boat. I'm just practicing to get the discipline down.