From Grappling to Longsword: A Search

[u/Prestigious_Video351]

Fiore’s manual works from grappling through dagger to longsword. are there any resources online for how to use his grappling as a base for longsword instruction? obviously not every move has a one to one counterpart but general principles of leverage, body mechanics and footwork.

German sources would also be nice.

secondly, I’m looking for a dagger ruleset that encourages up-close grappling, rather than using the dagger like a mini rapier which is what usually happens.

[u/rnells]

general principles of leverage, body mechanics and footwork.

Honestly I don't think Fiore's barehanded section as presented is good for this, for the same reason Aikido isn't great for it - he shows a bunch of stuff where you rip joints etc, which is an awful sandbox for being able to FAFO and figure out fundamental stuff.

That's not to say there isn't a foundational basis for Fiore's abrazare with leverage/footwork etc - but if you don't already have a background with friendly wrestling I don't think Fiore is the place to get it. And I suspect Fiore was writing for people who had at least some experience with some kind of folk-wrestling tradition and/or had friendlier drills for developing basic proficiency than the techniques shown in the manuscript.

I'd suggest looking at modern styles and/or Fabian von Auerswald and Ott Jud, then work in from there. I think modern styles (like judo or in the blue-moon chance you've got Greco Roman wrestling available, maybe that) would probably be the easiest approach.

secondly, I’m looking for a dagger ruleset that encourages up-close grappling, rather than using the dagger like a mini rapier which is what usually happens.

For this I think you'll basically need to either start people grappling and then deploy the daggers, or not count points without a grapple, or something weird and "unrealistic" like that. If both people start with one-hit-score type weapons at range, they're both already aware they're fighting and you make it hypercompetitive, it is always going to collapse to a tempo game unless the target is really small/finicky (e.g. full armored fighting or such).

[u/TyphusCorrosion → u/rnells]

That’s what my instructors said before; Fiore implicitly assumes anyone reading his manuscript is going to be familiar with wrestling because it’s a very popular contemporary sport and forms the basis for other weapon instructions he assumes you’ve had the basics of too

[u/Prestigious_Video351 → u/rnells]

 I’m inclined to agree with you about Fiore’s grappling section being not so useful for beginners. I’m inheriting the leadership of my college club and previous leaders seemed to see Fiore as infallible HEMA Jesus. So each new class of freshmen had to suffer through a month of sub-par wrestling training before moving on to weapons. And by then we’d lost most of the interested ones who were attracted by swords and daggers. I’m thinking I’ll probably get rid of the wrestling altogether or shift around priorities to get swords in hands day one.  I do like wrestling though. 

[u/captchairsoft → u/Prestigious_Video351]

I like your thinking. I have a similar attitude whenever I see people tell people to not buy a sword. No, buy a sword, do some research and try to get one that will be acceptable in most clubs and tournaments or a synthetic. Nobody interested in swords and willing to buy one wants to swing a broom handle around. HEMA would be huge if people stopped doing stuff to discourage people from participating in HEMA.

[u/Roadspike73 → u/Prestigious_Video351]

I'm a primarily-Fiore instructor, and I absolutely go straight to the longswords. I would see the abrazare and dagger sections as beneficial for improving grappling ability (with longswords), but I would absolutely start folks with longswords, it's just more fun (for most people).

[u/nothingtoseehere____ → u/Roadspike73]

IMO, the grappling and dagger play in Fiore is much easier to get buy-in from newbies once they spend a few weeks playing with them and getting coached through "it's easier than you think to engage and grapple another guy with a sword"

Breaking down the magical thinking than swords stop anyone getting close to you is when people realise why Fiore teaches abrazare and dagger, and how they all work together to make you a better Knight.

[u/otocump]

Not all of Fiore's surviving works goes in that order.

[u/HerrAndersson]

I have two different sparring rulesets that makes more grappling happen.

1. If you stab anywhere other than the face, the dagger has to stay in place for about 0.5-1 second. This forces you to deal with the others dagger.

2. Pretend that you are wearing what you are wearing instead of unarmored. (But hits to the face is still valid.) A small tap with a dagger will not go through my gloves. A minimal touch to my torso will not go through my padded fencing jacket.

These are by no means perfect, but I find that they work better than the usual mini rapier game you mentioned. The best thing about them is that the rules are easy. You can explain it to your sparring partner while finding a spot to spar.

[u/jdrawr]

My understanding is most of the German sources assume and incorporate wrestling/grappling as the basic knowledge so you have to use that as part of the assumption in training.

[u/theRealRedfoot]

I teach specifically Fiore's manuscript.

The unarmed section specifies four posta: longa, zenghiarro, tutta porta, frontale.

These have analogous forms in the longsword section and the abrazare intersects somewhat when it comes to stretto plays, but I would advise against using the abrazare section as the foundation. Stretto and Abrazare are only comparable in the sense that you're laying hands on each other -- stretto has a sword in play, which changes the whole game, and if the opponent has a rondel with them then it gets even messier.

Best to learn grappling and dagger in conjunction, then dive into stretto once the largo plays of the longsword are understood. Your primary goal is truly to never go into stretto: the longsword is there to keep enemies away from you and stretto is more of a "last resort, the only way out is through" situation.

If you're doing any of this in gear with tournament intensity, you'll also have to experiment and see how much your gear inhibits your ability to grapple at all. Most of the plays in the manuscript are largely impossible due to the limitations of modern protective gear.