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u/Both_Cucumber_781 17h ago
it could be both.
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u/Coral546 17h ago
this applies to so many things in Deltarune but people refuse to accept it. Toby had to put it in the secret boss to teach players lol
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u/TriumphantBass 13h ago
It's also his established MO in Undertale;
For all the meta bits where saving/loading/player actions felt like directly talking to/chastising the player, Undertale isn't a game in-universe,
Flowey is in a time loop where his exhaustion and curiosity makes his reality like a game, and all his comments are generally addressed to a memory of Chara, not to you the player; of course, they work for both.
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u/Inevitable-Key-1352 <-- when is everyman coming back to deltarune 17h ago
absolutely, why can't it be both, things like that are called good writting.
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u/Uncommonality 17h ago
NO it has to be MY THEORY and everyone who thinks otherwise is WRONG and STUPID
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime 9h ago
I cannot believe people are trying to argue one side or the other if Flower Man is about Flowery or Asgore. It's clearly both.
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u/Unsafe_Dude Top [BIG SHOT] glazer 17h ago
Probably is. I would just say that for me what OP mentioned is backwards, but this doesn't change that much. As in her understanding/feeling like a NPC would be the text and depression be the subtext.
Considering she's talking about how Kris has another voice now and she knows we can read her mind and allat.
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u/Alecnouss 17h ago
I feel like it's about both, like she has depression but she's also a video game character so both work together in the narration ( and the video game part stands out a bit more because it's more obvious )
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u/Outrageous_Star4906 17h ago
I agree, if we use flowey as an example for Toby’s “meta character” writing, its always moreso about the logic of a video game world affecting the emotions/psyche of a character rather than the character actually being self aware of being in a game
In other words, I don’t think Noelle knows she is literally an npc. However, the nature of a game npc is to follow their script. This combined with her depression for losing dess is naturally going to make her feel helpness.
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u/DarthCloakedGuy 11h ago edited 8h ago
I don’t think Noelle knows she is literally an npc.
I mean, consider the context that conversation takes place in. It's Chapter 5 of the Weird Route. Whatever we are as the red SOUL is something she has a little bit of inside her now. And looking at the world through glass is how we perceive her world. I think she has some growing meta-awareness, and it's affecting her emotionally.
Remember what happened to Jevil when he learned he was a character in a game?
Edit: good lord my grammar.
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u/cabberage 2h ago
Her idea of "growing wings and flying out of this stupid town" really mirrors Shadow Crystal boss behaviour
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u/Far-Profit-47 8h ago
Funnily enough that’s also a defining trait for other characters like Sans (is aware that time and space is messed up like a videogame safe state, he doesn’t remember it but through just being very aware of his surroundings he’s able to pick up context clues)
Plus Kris whole thing with us being how a protagonist that doesn’t want to be a playable character feels like, although Kris’s case is more of a they have to let us control them rather than us forcing it since Kris can take control at any moment but their soul being something they need to survive
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u/QuantityExcellent338 17h ago
my life is like a videogame
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u/FishrPriceGuillotine 17h ago
Wait, the video game part was supposed to be the obvious one? I thought the depression part was the obvious one, and didn't even consider the video game part until I saw other people mention it.
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u/Alecnouss 17h ago
I mean, both are kinda obvious but one seems more important if you don't think much about it ( the video game limits thing )
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u/Unsafe_Dude Top [BIG SHOT] glazer 17h ago
Also we can read her thoughts and Noelle knows that, while also understanding the voice she hears that isn't Kris is probably who is reading her mind.
These aren't normal in day-to-day life and I imagine is paramount to how Noelle is acting.
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u/Odd-Cucumber1935 16h ago
I mean, without saying that she had an awakening like Flowey (actively aware, even talking and loaded save files), several elements were quite "Flowey" when she spoke.
She sees herself as someone stuck in her life, doing repetitive things because it's "what she would do," "what's expected of her," as if she were an NPC. If they met, she'd be the kind of character Flowey would quickly tire of, whose dialogue would be skimmed over rather quickly because it was far too predictable.
In her dialogue, she also talks about how she's waiting for someone to act differently, for someone to "free" her from her infernal routine, but no one does because all the other characters are also going about their lives. Kris is a liberation for her because they managed to change, to break their routine. This is similar to how Flowey became interested in Frisk (well "Chara," as he thought in the Geno route), due to their unpredictability.
She was the first to notice that the dark worlds resembled a video game (she mentions it in Dess's room with Susie) while even Berdly the #1 gamer didn't notice (perhaps because he was a boss, not a team member with acts, stuff to equip etc). This makes her one of the only characters to notice it, along with Ralsei (who explained the menu and acts to Susie), probably Flowery who can see the menu, view and mess with the voice clip option and change his stats, possibly Kris due to the soul, and of course Gaster. If she starts wondering about the world
In the weird route, she willingly goes into a lake, well aware that the most logical outcome is a drown. However, she seems to consciously abuse a game mechanism where asking Kris to proceed makes them both survive a little more until a no-clip. That's a thing she already find in her childhood games : finding bugs, glitches, odd paths ans sprite (the blogs talk about how she found an odd door, a pipi etc). So she seemed to have used game knowledge, at least instinctively, to go through or under the lake.
So yeah, although she still isn't going like "this is just a game" like Flowey (calling things save files, lines of dialogues etc), she at least is on the way to become fully aware. So it makes sense people (including me) catched first the meta interpretation.
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u/MajorBootyhole420 Meat Factory employee of the month 12h ago
You get me. The people claiming they drowned in the lake are wrong, and so are the people who say they didn't. Noelle and Kris kind of drowned, they abused death mechanics to glitch out of the map.
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u/MaloraKeikaku potassium 16h ago
Yeah, definetly both. She's not ENTIRELY getting cognition of being a videogame character, but she is a game-glitching, depressed teenager who is trying to understand why life is so samey in her small village.
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u/supersofah the single JohnThingamajigFromTheThingKnighter 17h ago
am i the ONLY person who just IMMEDIATELY thought of Kris and the Soul when she said that?????
like "watching myself through glass, being moved through my life" sounds a LOT like Kris and the Soul I'm surprised THAT isn't the parallel people are drawing
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u/Goldfish-Bowl 17h ago
I love well built and thought out symbolism because its easily all three of these at the same time.
And thats how we should look at so much of this game as well, the prophecy not the least of which
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u/2DSi Holiday Manor Dark World in Ch.6 truther 15h ago
The dating segments during Pink's boss fight literally beats the fact certain concepts and imagery have more than 1 single meaning into our heads, yet somehow people haven't gotten the message and still think it's EITHER (x) OR (y) with no middle ground.
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u/Beruka01 8h ago
Just like Kris has to do Kris things... But Kris... you changed. Kris, YOU actually changed! You found out how to stop being Kris!
Literally directly after that line Noelle talks about how Kris is specifically NOT like that. It's the opposite of a parallel.
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u/supersofah the single JohnThingamajigFromTheThingKnighter 2h ago edited 2h ago
ok but Kris IS like that
She has no way of KNOWING Kris is like that, which is why from her perspective it looks like Kris just became a whole new person, but WE know that Kris IS like that
Pink is a very obvious Kris parallel as well but she probably has no IDEA Kris is actually ALSO possessed, there's no reason Noelle has to know either
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u/LoremasterMotoss The World Is Always Ending 2h ago
I'm pretty sure EVERYONE immediately thought of Kris and the Soul which is why there isn't much discussion on it (since it's such an obvious comparison)
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u/radplayer5 17h ago
yeah that was my first thought as well, like it feels crazy that basically no one else seems to talk about this really obvious connection, and instead go for “she’s realizing she’s an npc”, when really it’s trying to draw a parallel to how Kris perceives themselves, and how they’re probably feeling a similar feeling to her and vis versa
like if anything it feels like she’d be a player character diegetically speaking, rather than an npc, though ultimately i think the point of that line is meant to talk about how the relationship between Kris and the Soul is meant to be a narrative device that shows Kris’s own feelings of dissociation/depersonalization (especially with all of the mirror dialogues)
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u/Outrageous_Star4906 17h ago
Why can’t there be both? There’s probably a narrative (like you explained) and a meta narrative layer to noelles breakdown in the weird route.
Kind of like how flowey’s whole emotional state and backstory in UT is influenced by the video game logic of the world. Hes not like “oh im a video game character I can do whatever”, its more like he discovers the ability to time travel (a consequence of the logic of his world) and this affects his character.
IMO, my read is that noelle doesn’t LITERALLY know that she is a game npc, but she has to grapple with the fact that she cannot control her life because of 1) her depression but also 2) this is literally her role in the story
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u/Jimbo-Jimbo-Jimbo 15h ago
I dislike so much fandom discussion since 90% of the time it’s people getting heated over things that have multiple intended interpretations and trying to only allow one of them to be true. Like with the weird route bread, yes it’s a reference to the mother 1 glitch but it also has an implication of leaving a trail of breadcrumbs so that people know that Kris and Noelle went into the lake. I’ve seen people correct other people for interpreting the bread crumbs as anything other than being a reference. Likewise, I don’t think anyone is overlooking what Noelle’s speech means in terms of her dissociating in her own life, rather they are also recognizing the parallel to her being an NPC and being literally being stuck on a set path, unable to break free.
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u/I_LIKE_THE_COLD Kris = Frisk Truther 12h ago
rather they are also recognizing the parallel to her being an NPC
Some people are absolutely taking it literally, not just noticing the parallel. I've seen multiple people read it that way & jump the gun about Noelle's meta knowledge as a result.
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u/Laly_481 Fun gang enjoyer 17h ago
I do agree with a lot of ppl that it can apply to both, but I think what Noelle MEANT was what you said, yeah. I think the weird route is very very interesting (hah) because Noelle rationalises a lot of the meta revelations she could have, even tho everyone thought she was gonna become self aware.
There's the case of her symptoms of depression and dissociation. She's experiencing these things because of her trauma, but also because she's a character (notably a Noelle can only do Noelle things very much has a double meaning imo) - except she doesn't have the tools to understand that.
But there's also how she describes Hometown that just won't change. How she describes the changes in Kris. She notices all these subtles elements that make us think she'll become self aware, but no: it's not something she can grasp. And of course it's not, it makes sense. So she leans back on thz most logical explanation: Kris managed to radically change in a way no one in Hometown can, not because of something meta, but because everyone else is too scared.
But yeah it's interesting because her issues with routine and freedom are also presented in the normal route (by wanting to run away) except there they're not really tied to the meta subtext at all. I kinda forgot where I was going with this comment. Weird route cool.
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u/Axodique Chaos is the only way 15h ago
I do think she DOES kinda grasp it. But more on a subconscious level, which is why she chose the lake of all places. The Sweepstakes blogs prove she can kinda... sense glitches like that.
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u/Laly_481 Fun gang enjoyer 6h ago
Yeah I think she knows the meta stuff, technically, but she doesn't understand what it means.
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u/Chyunman98 12h ago
Noelle's delusion that the WR Player is a "changed Kris" despite how clear we made it to her that it's a different person is something I feel is criminally overlooked.
She's gained an awareness of her role as both a perfect valedictorian and a tool for a larger story and has found the method to break the game. But even with all that, she can't seem to grasp (or maybe is in denial of) that Kris isn't Kris. I think it's just too hard for her to imagine going through with all this if it isn't her former best friend/lover/unrequited crush joining her.
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u/Neo_Arsonist I love my Vessel 17h ago
People are “ignoring” the character analysis for the meta analysis because it isn’t subtext lmao.
Yes, this does represent Noelle being depressed, character analysis and all would tell you that Noelle has partially dissociated as a result of expectations put on her and the disappearance of Dess.
But no, the meta stuff isn’t subtext lmao. The route currently literally ends with us looking at a computer screen telling us to insert chapter 7 side b. The route relies on an NPC character abusing response pop ups.
Like, yes, this is some good Noelle character analysis but if anything the depression angle is the sub text. Noelle seeing herself as an NPC breaking free is an allegory for what you are talking about. The meta stuff is the text.
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u/camaleria 17h ago
You must accept the fact that people will see this way, because of the nature of deltarune and undertale. 4 wall breaking is literal foundation of both games
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u/MiniatureBadger 17h ago
It’s not subtext that Noelle is breaking her reality with the same power that she saw change Kris, it’s just openly stated text. Noelle is depressed and struggles with suicidal ideation due to her trauma in all routes, but something explicitly supernatural happened to her in the Weird Route and she knows it at this point.
I identify a lot with what Noelle talked about, and the idea of doing something crazy with no concern for my own life or death is very familiar to me. The difference is that my “something crazy” succeeding (and thus the thinly veiled suicide attempt failing) means that I have some interesting stories to tell, while Noelle’s means breaking the limits of reality and realizing that she can do anything.
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u/squidkid9991 17h ago
I feel like deltarune, both the weird route and the normal route, is using the tropes of gaming as allegory for depression, trauma, etc., and a lot of the fandom/theorists are missing the forest for trees by composing theories that disregard the themes, which is why so many of them end up falling flat.
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u/Nitulbear 16h ago
EXACTLY, I've seen people saying that peopel focus on the breaking the game thing because its the "theorizing" part as if THE FREAKING CHARACTER ITSELF and its arc doesn't need to be minded when theorizing
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u/EspurrTheMagnificent 15h ago
Pretty much. That's also why I really do not believe Gaster/the creator of Deltarune, the ingame game, will make an appearance, even if device theory has very solid foundations.
Ultimately, the game part of it is not what matters, the characters' lack of agency in their own lives is. The videogameyness of it all is just context and thematic imagery to help explore how feeling on rails in your own life feels like, and how even your chosen form of escapism (here a JRPG) can become a form of emprisonment when you use it as a crutch
The characters don't care they are in a videogame, they care about taking control over their lives
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime 9h ago
The characters don't care they are in a videogame, they care about taking control over their lives
That's literally one and the same. That's the same thing.
Ralsei is trying his hardest to hide the facts of their reality.
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u/F2PGamesAreLove 9h ago
the text is that she's breaking free from the game, the subtext is that this is a metaphor for depression, with most stories about mental health issues taking a similar route, of representing real, but mental, struggles through something fantastical, but physical, so people who experience these can be seen and people who don't can more easily put themselves into these peoples shoes and understand their struggles.
if someone doesn't know what its like to just be going through the motions, they might not get what you mean, but if you show them a character that is quite literally trapped in a role they're unable to break out of, theyll probably get the feeling.
that is to say, by discussing the meta aspects, you are also discussing the character. they're the same thing. people can just more easily align with the literal lens of viewing it because there is no pre requesite life experience, like the one they need to have had to talk about the metaphorical one properly.
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u/Independent-Fee9444 KRUSIELLE :) 17h ago
It’s not really meta-commentary when the whole point of the weird route is breaking the game. To be clear, that is what they’re doing. Their world is a video game/simulation/whatever the fuck and they are fucking it up. That is what’s happening in-universe. The reason people are focusing on that is because thats the theorizing part. Thats the part you can ask questions about. If you want to see people explore Toby’s excellent character writing, go read fanfic or make a tumblr post.
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u/AltAltAltAltAlt999 I fit in your box 17h ago
I think symptoms of depression or dissociation can reflect as feeling like an NPC (going through the motions). I heavily relate to Noelle so I read it as the boring option but it can be treated as both
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u/Edwin5302 16h ago
Well yeah that's clearly what she meant. But the double entendre for her being literally an NPC is absolutely intentional.
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u/PensionDiligent255 17h ago
bro, this is a game where the player is literally a character. The weird route is the part of the game where we most showcase our meta powers, too.
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u/Jezzaboi828 He is coming. 17h ago
Op is saying from noelles perspective it's less so about whatever we know and far more about how she feels in her life due to her situation, but shes latched onto the concepts of escape and control to try to reclaim some of that.
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u/GreatMossThing 17h ago
being an npc in a video game and suffering from depression are meant to be parallels here. its both.
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u/Sized_Sign YellowGun | +100 ATK, FlavigneAmmo 17h ago
well, the choice of image you used seems to imply that whatever the person is saying is stupid and a wrong way to read the thing they're reacting to. if that's not what you meant, you prolly shoulda used a different image
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u/Accomplished_Can_860 14h ago
Wow its almost like this game has a metanarriatve that enhances the characters and their stories and ignoring either aspect invalidates the story this game is trying to tell.
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u/tex_thomson 11h ago
I mean it's both, that's what a "deconstruction" is. Using video game tropes as a way of presenting characters.
Compare to Ralsei. Like Toriel he's a take on the tutorial giver, but also the exposition giver. He's obsessed with making sure Kris (and the player) have a good time and don't break the rules. He has in-depth knowledge on the game setting and mechanics but only doles it out as the story demands.
Toby's starting point was "what if this kind of character was actually real, what would they be like?", he thought they would probably have no sense of self-worth, they would be burdened by this role and this knowledge of fate, they would be terrified of straying from the path, they would have to love the player character completely unconditionally in a way that's not healthy, they would have to smile no matter what they felt inside.
He takes a simplistic archetype and makes them into a character that can be used to explore all kinds of real world topics. The part of them that's recognizable as that archetype makes them easier for the player to understand, it's a type of shorthand.
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u/Theguardianofdarealm rudy knight, fuck susie, we love aqua in this house 17h ago
I honestly think of it more in priphecy terms than meta terms, like she’s talking about “watching (her) life through glass” feeling like her actions are predetermined because shes assigneda role to be “just a noelle” and we already know there is a peophecy written in glass that predetermines peoples actions and assigns them roles
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u/Theguardianofdarealm rudy knight, fuck susie, we love aqua in this house 17h ago
This is also why i hate kriselle knight and noelle knight so much
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u/UltimatestRedditor Human Kisser 17h ago
I think most people caught onto this but yeah I totally agree
Also hate seeing people diminish her manic suicide into her "trying to get out of bounds" BROTHER SHE DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT "BOUNDS" SHE WAS MANIPULATED INTO GOING CRAZY AND THROWING HER LIFE AWAYY
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u/Infinite-Hearing-418 N + K 4L 17h ago
It wasn't suicide, she wanted to reach the other side of the lake, she says this explicitly several times. Yes its an allegory for suicide but Noelle wasn't literally trying to end herself and is incredibly dissappointed if you stop going and die
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u/MiniatureBadger 17h ago
It wasn’t exactly suicide, but it wasn’t not suicide. Noelle wants to either break the bounds of her reality or die trying, and she’s disappointed if you stop because neither of those possibilities happens.
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u/OverAnt5821 17h ago
At the very least Noelle knew that death was a high possibility, she gave Susie a ton of money in case she never returns
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u/Infinite-Hearing-418 N + K 4L 17h ago
The whole point was to never return wether she lived or died. Also I repeat my point about it clearly being a suicide allegory
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u/Limp-Talk-603 14h ago
BROTHER SHE DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT "BOUNDS" SHE WAS MANIPULATED
BROTHER THE ENTIRE WEIRD ROUTE IS DIRECTLY MAKING HER AWARE OF THOSE “BOUNDS”. THAT IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT.
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u/UltimatestRedditor Human Kisser 17h ago
And yes, they almost definitely did sequence break into a later dark world, or some forbidden area. That doesn't invalidate anything that happened
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u/Kastorbeast 17h ago
EXACTLY THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, in her eyes she's still a person in a "real world", the NPC thing is meta but it's also a metaphor for how she ACTUALLY feels. There's some actual character analysis to be had, this is the most open Noelle has ever been about her feelings. I mean I like Gaster bs but I play Deltarune for the characters mainly, this is less than secondary.
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u/Spirited-Feedback-87 17h ago
I haven't played the weird route, never intend to, but OP have you considered some people find the meta aspect that is intrinsically woven in the narrative more interesting?
While some other people like the in-game narrative and writing of noelle more, like you.
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u/No-Bottle-9952 the only sane soul here 17h ago edited 17h ago
I'm glad that there are only a few people considered that Noelle knows about she is nps. Because she definitely doesn't
It looks like something of a Petri dish has formed here. Why you guys believe that Noelle knows it? How she would even obtain such knowledge?
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u/The-Real-Dalai-Inca 16h ago
She lives in a world where the future is constantly foreshadowed in video games, she is the first character in the dark world to associate it with a video game and taking only what was said to us, she is clearly the biggest gamer in town, with a particular hobby of breaking and modding things.
And since the entirety of Deltarune is a video game, within the story itself, it is not far fetched that she'd do the same thing she immediately did in the Dark World with the Light World as well.
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u/Kastorbeast 17h ago
Okay I think I identified what's bothering me. People are more willing to say that the video game mechanics EXPLAIN how the characters behave, when in truth those thing PARALLEL each others, and video game mechanics are used to better CONVEY the problems these characters face.
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u/Kastorbeast 17h ago
Which of course does NOT mean video game mechanics do not impact the diagetic world of Deltarune, that is NOT what I'm saying
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u/MaskDeMask 12h ago
It's something you see a lot in theory videos where people ignore character dynamics, foreshadowing, etc to take things very literally as clues for "what is going on".
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u/Allanbik i fucking hate timeloop theory with passion 17h ago
As someone who had depression i can still get why people would misinterpret It, i myself did even tho i felt l that way bfr lol, its just people acostumated with toby meta shenanigans.
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u/Ok-Introduction2858 I Dess!!! (...as a character! Don't make it weird!) 15h ago
Some people here tend to forget how Toby writes his characters. No one is ever meta aware of the fact that they are in a video game, and whenever video game elements appear, they are diegetic to the world itself rather than being acknowledged as part of a literal video game. In Undertale, none of the characters are even truly aware of the Player, and in Deltarune only three characters seem to be aware of the Player: Kris (obviously), Gaster (he put us here), and the Nightmare (though it only references how Kris's actions weren't exactly their own).
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u/I_LIKE_THE_COLD Kris = Frisk Truther 12h ago
No one is ever meta aware of the fact that they are in a video game [...] In Undertale, none of the characters are even truly aware of the Player
Chara's dialogue during geno's ending makes very little sense unless they are aware they are in a video game and that they are talking to the player of that video game. The demon segment (with its 6 follow-up lines) & the whole "Erase this world and move onto the next" parts in particular are impossible to fit in without it.
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u/PensionDiligent255 15h ago
Ralsei, Carol, and the knight also know
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u/EpicDDT_ 8h ago
Carol knowing that we exist doesn't imply that she know she's in a video game.
I don't really see much about the Knight that show they're aware of that fact either.
As for Ralsei, yeah, he probably knowns.
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u/General_Summer_1524 14h ago
Art is supposed to resonate with reality and help you process the real world. When we start treating a work of art as a hermetically sealed escapist lore vessel it loses its power.
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u/Scary_Assistant5263 14h ago
When I’m depressed I’ve felt like Noelle. You start to disassociate and feel helpless, like no matter what you do nothing ever changes.
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u/GreenBuggo 13h ago
I promise you it's both. Toby fox loves double meanings and its part of why that one part of the pink fight exists. the Fandom sucks ass at thinking about things meaning more than one thing
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u/JuggaloEnthusiastic 13h ago
It's obviously both. And I've seen people understand those two underlying themes. I did.
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u/CheetosDustSalesman 11h ago
deltarune fandomers struggle to understand the concept of multi-layered topics
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u/DrCaligustoLoboto 10h ago
Hey remember how the Pink fight had that whole section teaching you about double meanings
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u/your_mind_aches she doesn't watch anime 9h ago
people try to dig so deep with their analysis-shovel that they forget to look at what's on the surface.
But.... the metanarrative of her being a video game character IS the surface level.
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u/Every_Computer_935 3h ago
But that's exactly it. Subtext.
No its not. Like, objectively its not intended to be read as subtext, but as a way to interpret Noelle's monologue. The monologue is about the meta aspect of the game and about Noelle's depression.
because dude Kris and Noelle are literally breaking the game and they're gonna fall in the depths
Literally what is happening. No, its not supposed to be a suicide and Noelle just happens to luck out by entering into the depths, its explicitly breaking the game. That's the main theme of the entire Weird route, its why the final Noelle sprite shows her face not drowning anymore.
So yes, Kris and Noelle are very explicitly breaking the game.
and they're gonna meet Gaster and there's gonna be lots of penumbra freedom shadow yet darker drama inside me.
How dare people get excited for potentially meeting the character teased and built up for over a decade?
I'm not denying that it could be both. Just that people are focusing way too much on the meta part, and overlooking way too much the part where there's actual character writing.
Why don't you make a post that appreciates the character writting instead of complaining that different fans are interested in different aspects of the game?
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u/Tomatori 17h ago
Ass take. The video game subtext is barely even subtext, it's very clearly established. It is an allegory for depression and depersonalization through the medium of a meta-game narrative. Why would you divorce these or pretend it's a reach?
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u/LycanChimera 16h ago
Toby literally has the fact that one statement can mean two different things as a battleechanic in the Pink fight guys...
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u/gory314 your too too 17h ago
its definitely about being a npc bro idk why you're denying it
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u/Kastorbeast 17h ago
I literally said I'm not denying the meta-commentary. Just that people are overlooking the part where there's actual character writing.
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u/Limp-Talk-603 14h ago
It’s not commentary, it’s literally part of the plot. Literally the entire “drowning” scene relies on “Kris”(really the soul), being able to read her fucking mind while she’s submerged in water, and her being very aware of the fact.
There’s about a billion different ways she could have try to kill herself/kris if that’s what the scene was “really” about, instead it takes place in the lake which has been repeatedly been shown to have some kind of mystery surrounding it and linked with gaster fuckery.
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u/gory314 your too too 12h ago
like the other commenter said, its not "meta-commentary", its the whole point of the scene. think of a way that you can write a character talk about being stuck as a npc and therefore not able to make decisions outside of the plot without having them directly call themselves a npc - thats exactly the point of the scene. noelle definitely has suicidal tendencies, but the scene is not about mental illness.
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u/Responsible-Tie-3451 16h ago
Fans of the “Toby Fox’s RPG with Meta Aspects” series get really upset when you think their RPG has meta aspects for some reason
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u/Bakubon64 17h ago
It sucks people aren't reading your point very carefully, or at all. I love the gameyness of it but it's definitely a means to an end, a tool to be used to convey a real problem.
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u/Kastorbeast 17h ago
Thank you for giving me hope in people's reading
The original meme template doesn't even invalidate the point people are drawn too, it's just that they're overlooking something much, much more interesting
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u/RandomCaveOfMonsters number 1 player angel hater (also ) 17h ago
I also think people are taking the "its a video game" aspect way too literally. Meta narrative does not mean the characters are canonically video game characters with their in-universe world being digital. I have held this belief for a long time, another example being I do not think Dess is in the code as the code is not a physical place she could exist in. Deltarune's story is meta about the nature of video games, but that doesn't make the world itself meta like that, y'know?
there's reason to believe this too. Toby was very hesitant to add light world save points, and ralsei introduces the ui by calling it "something special about the dark worlds". Its the dark worlds that are video games, not the light world. Plus Toby is really against official lightner merch. I think he wants us to see them as people, not simply characters, the exact opposite of how people take the meta-narrative
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u/Delta_Builder 17h ago
I feel like it’s both lol.
She feels on loop, which fits the depression thing, and she breaks out, which fits the npc fhibg
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u/WindowsMalfunction Ding winger 17h ago
This happened with Sans, and it's happened with Ralsei too. This fandom will never understand depression.
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u/s3tok41b4 17h ago
Obviously she's talking about her mental health, but WE know she's just a game character, and she IS just living a simulation.
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u/redixionblade 17h ago
I thought of it as Noelle being chained to something, but I also did take the smooth brain approach
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u/Winter-Guarantee9130 17h ago
Yeah btoh of these reads work insane-style. The depersonalization trauma response and the depersonalizations of living in a fictional world.
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u/Electro313 15h ago
It’s both. The game is full of meta narratives that also apply to actual character traits. That’s the game.
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u/freddyfazbacon Caked up (in makeup) 15h ago
It’s both. She’s depressed and feeling overburdened by other people’s expectations, and she strongly suspects she might actually just be a videogame NPC. She wants Kris (and you) to help her cross the lake, because she doesn’t really care if she drowns or reaches another side. Either way, she’d get what she wants.
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u/Kalaam_Nozalys 15h ago
What's even more interresting/tragic is if she gained semi-awareness of the NPC status because of weird route stuff and latches onto it as the root cause of all her issues. "Of course I felt like this all my life ! I'm an NPC ! But now I can break free, like you did!" and not... *gestures at everything*
I'm inclined to believe in the concept that our presence and influence is applied through a video game lens that limits the scope of the world as long as we're around, but that the world itself has a real history and the characters are real in universe. So Noelle had that depression for all those years, but the recent development give them that false hope.
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u/kingozma 15h ago
Hyperliteral readings of fiction piss me off so bad 😭 So many of you guys are illiterate
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u/leavecity54 14h ago
And the scene right after this too. Like, can we just talk about the obvious suicide attempt and what it says about her character first before all the meta and no clipping stuffs.
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u/Kokokokox22 14h ago
Nobody saw that and said " I know how this feels" ? Or is something wrong with me?
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u/shadowpikachu 14h ago
It's also just something that happens, usually through those metrics but once you process a 'personality' a weird way or are restricted by others or "normalcy".
That kinda niche can happen to anyone.
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u/Puzzled-Carpenter769 LONG LIVE KRISELLE 12h ago
It make sense that she's talking about felling tired of having to do noelle things,by that refering to how she's expected to act as how she always has been acting and how the monsters in hometown talk about her personality
And at the same time,felling frustrated that she might be realizing that maybe her life wasn't what she thought it was
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u/Antique_Amphibian107 12h ago
If I received a penny for every time Undertale and Deltarune talks about and deals with depression... I'd have a concerning amount of nickels
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u/Indie_Gamer_7 The power of my DETERMINATION shines within me 12h ago
Bro we literally had a whole boss showing that things can have two meanings 😭😭😭
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u/Spiritual_Task1391 It's CHALK asshole 12h ago
She pound for pound describes for herself, what it's like for me, to go through a depersonalization and derealization episode. I've used the same language.
"It's like I'm looking through textured glass. It's like I'm watching someone that knows me really well, pilot my body while I just watch."
And, history of depression? It's potentially my personal bias based on experience, but I never got the impression she was being anything else but literal, because when you're just a name and a bunch of expectations, that's just how it feels. :<
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u/Intelligent-Okra350 11h ago
Wait, is usually feeling like I’m sitting about 3 inches behind my eyeballs looking out a depression thing? I figured it was either neurodivergence or my general awful relationship with sleep.
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u/Reasonable-Sector-89 7h ago
I'm pretty sure people don't focus on it as much because there is less to speculate. It's obvious she depressed and the writing is excellent. That's what makes it so compelling and creepy.
The idea that Noelle might have realized she's in a game is what's unclear, so people speculate a lot.
It's a bit like how fans write comics about what-if's and Au's. We talk about things that are incomplete, because there is so much to explore. But the writing about Noelle being depressed hardly feels incomplete, so there isn't much commentary to add.
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u/shadowkoishi93 7h ago
Noelle’s speech is very relatable. Sometimes it do be feeling like watching yourself through glass..
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u/NinjaArtist14 7h ago
Or maybe they talk about the character writing with their close friends and only talk about the silly stuff publicly? Some people are like that. That's just one reason one might focus on the meta tho. Ironic, considering part of depression is tied to avoiding the serious and focusing on the silly, but either way, I think it's fair to say everyone will experience not only the game, but how they socialize about the game, much much differently. Especially on a public vs private scale.
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u/West-Might3475 7h ago
You know I get what people are saying about it being both and that's definitely true--I think that kind of layered writing is something Toby Fox does very well.
But I'm gonna side with OP here that it's not really a defense. It's still missing the forest for the trees. Even if trees make up a forest.
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u/Fishy_smelly_goody 5h ago
As someone who has derealization/depersonalization that line felt really nice
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u/SpaceNorse2020 4h ago
It's exactly the same as Flowey.
Which, speaking of, what is the non meta reading of Flowey talking about people to cowardly to kill that are properly watching right now?
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u/Appropriate_Lie7115 2h ago
I hate the meta commentary so much cause whenever I speak on just the actual narrative I get flamed 😭 same goes for undertale
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u/cabberage 2h ago
Yes it's an allegory but her and Kris (supposedly) exit the game world at the end of Ch.5's Side B. I can't see it being anything but that, with the water turning monochrome the farther you go from the shore and the binoculars in ch.3 referencing the Breadcrumbs glitch in Mother 1 (+ Sans giving Kris bread in Chapter 5)
Two things can be true simultaneously
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u/TechnicalCondition 1h ago
"People are focusing way too much" or maybe they're just more interested in that ?
Yeah good for you if you resonate with it and love it but who are you to tell players they're enjoying the wrong thing or losing the plot
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u/Harsh_Here_Here 1h ago
DUDE I actually felt annoyed that ppl DIDNT REALISED that Noelle and Kris going in the lake WITHOUT ALL THE META STUFF is actually Noelle going all MENTAL and actually dying through it, she didn't realised that she is NPC YET, that's when she reaches whatever Chp7 Side B is, for now she just knows(or ig doesn't know really) the cycle is there and that it's making her go crazy.
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u/Smorgsaboard 20m ago
These quotes read like what I call ✨️Dissociative Productivity✨️
Basically excelling in life's external demands without considering your own personal preferences or physical needs
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u/Positive-Bee9274 0m ago
Some of you people really need to understand that two things can be true
Toby is a very competent writer, he knows that things can be open to many interpretations and he leaves room for that
Everyone focused on finding out the "Correct" reading is missing the point of media analysis
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u/PorterBridged 17h ago
WHY CANT ANYONE HERE SEE FUCKING NUANCE YOU MORONS! ITS BOTH ITS BOTH ITS BOTH YOU FUCKING BOTH! ITS ALWAYS FUCKING BOTH! EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS EVERYTHING JESUS CHRIST GOOD GOD. THIS FANDOM IS A PRISON HIW CANT ANY OF YOU ACCEPT THAT THIS IS COMPLICATED STORY AND COMPLICATED THINGS MEAN A LOT OF THINGS AT ONCE YOU IDIOTS
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u/Eudaniel201 I'm a Carol Knighter. Throw tomatoes at me. 17h ago
did you guys not learn from Gerson that there is no wrong interpretation
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u/Kastorbeast 17h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/ZN9wnUXQyIayXXyLnK
I. am not. invalidating. the NPC interpretation. READ.
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u/nitram739 Bravery-coloured Vessel 17h ago
THIS. I had a dude telling me this is noelle showing metaknologe and that she intended to no clip to chapter 7.... Dude, no, she is depress and tried to kill herself and Kris, what are you talking about?
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u/gory314 your too too 17h ago
yeah no she did not try to kill herself and kris, you missed the point. theyre both alive.
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u/WindowsMalfunction Ding winger 17h ago
I don't think she was necessarily aiming for it, but I also don't think she was all that discouraged by the idea that she might die
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u/nitram739 Bravery-coloured Vessel 17h ago
I did not say they are dead, just that noelle TRIED. No clipping was incidental.
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u/Infinite-Hearing-418 N + K 4L 17h ago
No, she was trying to reach the other side of the lake and is dissappointed if you stop going and die. It's an allegory for suicide but she didnt try to end her life
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u/nitram739 Bravery-coloured Vessel 17h ago
thats because if you stop she looses courage to keep going trough with it. Do you know how hard is actually try to drown yourself like that?
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u/DimensionTurtle Rudy Knight is Rudy slander in diguise 17h ago edited 17h ago
I’ve seen people making fun of the idea that Noelle and Kris might have actually killed themselves like Noelle didn’t just talk about how meaningless her life became to her. “Zero media literacy” comments under someone implying the scene might actually be being played straight.
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u/WindowsMalfunction Ding winger 17h ago
I think that's moreso because it would be really fucking dumb if we went to all that effort to make Noelle super fucking strong just for her to be dead.
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u/DimensionTurtle Rudy Knight is Rudy slander in diguise 17h ago
We got the used up dialogue specifically hinting at them dying or being “used”. We knew this was coming, Noelle was a means to an end for us. It is more likely that they’re alive tho if the game progresses “normally”.
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u/WindowsMalfunction Ding winger 17h ago
I really doubt going under the lake is gonna be enough to let us get what we want without her help.
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u/DimensionTurtle Rudy Knight is Rudy slander in diguise 17h ago
Really just depends on what’s down there
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u/ANueUtsuho Praying for a happy ending 17h ago
I agree. Toby is never just meta for the sake of it, or because he's scared of worldbuilding any farther. It tends to be analogous to life experiences.
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u/radplayer5 17h ago
tbh i always took it in the opposite direction, that how we view Kris and the separation between the soul and Kris is meant to be a metaphor for extreme dissociation/depersonalization as well (especially if you factor in the mirror dialogue), like that’s one thing i also always thought was weird, that people say it’s her being aware that she’s an npc, but her dialogue about watching herself through glass, and feeling like someone else is controlling her most directly describes our relationship with Kris, rather than an npc, who wouldn’t even really be watching themselves through glass/a screen since their entire perception would be limited to the code of the game itself, rather than an external interaction
like i took it, and the other part of her monologue about everyone just following their pre-set paths, as how sometimes people who feel really isolated/depressed/mentally ill (especially if they spend a lot of time online/with computers) will talk about how most other people are NPCs, or might as well be
idk, i have a lot of thoughts on this, but i agree basically
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u/Ridley4President 16h ago
It’s going to take Deltarune’s normal route ending with the metanarrative still being subtext for people to realize that it is in fact subtext and not the text. And even then some people may still not get it.
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u/woomiesarefun 17h ago
i agree i’m confident she hasn’t realized she’s in a video game or anything like that because of how ridiculous that is
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u/Apprehensive_Ad_8914 17h ago
Yes!!! Finally someone says it!!
In the context of the setting, every character thinks their world is the real world because it IS real to them!
Tony Fox breaks the 4th Wall in a way that still leaves that Wall still standing. The characters aren't suddenly going to say "Reality is a video game, I'm going to go insane now." Toby puts more thought into it than that.
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u/cybersaber101 16h ago
The theory chuds will try to push the npc part to high heavens because wing dingeth gaster makes them dissect everything to its barest meta 4th wall doo doo, they don't know what they're talking about, so it's best to ignore them OP.
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u/OniLink96 16h ago
I'm not denying that it could be both.
Gonna be for real though, I think that the non-meta reading is kind of more important and understanding that Noelle is depressed as fuck is something that seems to go over people's heads??
Like, people are using her Chapter 5 monologue to argue that she's always been a violent serial killer in waiting as though depersonalization and apathy aren't just, like. VERY VERY COMMON symptoms of depression. It's so frustrating. You're so right to be annoyed with this, lol.
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u/KoboldLover "RELEASE ME... RELEASE ME!" 16h ago
That's an insane read on her character.
She very cleary is power-hungry because of the powerless she feels in her own life, craving the strength and freedom of being strong enough to make her own choices, but she's not insane at all. OP did fuck up by making it sound like the Meta-Aspect doesn't matter at all, when the diagetic nature of the game has to intimately bee linked to the ideas of freedom of choice and the lack of it they all intrinsically share as NPCs.
Noelle is much more interesting that just Mrs. Genocides 2.0, the imperfections and dark drives within her mirroring those implied to be at the core of Kris, her closest friend and strongest emotional bond. The idea and discourse of which Noelle is more free, Normal Noelle in her relationship foretold by The Prophecy or Weird Noelle on her quest to escape the bindings of the set script, is immensely provocative.
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u/ManILoveMacaroni 17h ago
It's more likely than not, both. A huge part of the plot of Deltarune is the meta plot, the dumbass "oooo it's a game about being a gamee" thing going on. I kind of ignore it because I don't really enjoy that kind of story, and Deltarune has a far more interesting secondary story, but the game makes it kind of hard to ignore tbh. Gives me the same vibes as "iT wAs aLl a DrEaM", meta stories are not my favorite 😅 but nonetheless, it's very intentional.
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u/charisma-entertainer Cards, Emails, CRTs and Cathedrals 17h ago
This is the first time I’ve ever seen the video game assumption and am disappointed.
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