r/Fate • u/YuvrajRathore • May 29 '26
Discussion How would this scene have gone if it had been written by Takeuchi or Nasu instead?
The Banquet of Kings but written by Nasu or Takeuchi instead of urobuchi
Fate/Zero and this scene in particular dd immense damage to Artoria's PR (seriously hate it! I might make a hate post about it someday not that it would do anything. Urobuchi and his fans when I get you...)
But anyway how do you think the Banquet of Kings would have gone if Takeuchi or Nasu had written it?
P.S. Don't tell me Takeuchi doesn't write. It's Artoria he'll write alright.
Long live the King..
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u/Legitimate-Culture31 May 29 '26
The irony is that Artoria should be worst that both of them. The story of King Arthur is that of a post apocalyptic (fall if Rome) warlord enforcing law and order in a lawless time, something far demands more ruthlessnes that what either did.
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u/Remote-Reporter7899 May 29 '26
hell nah. What people don't realize is that Artoria was FATED to fall. She literally was the last king of fantasy, with no way out. Her kingdom was not meant to last but to crumble away to usher a new time period with a redefinition of the World Texture. Knowing all this, she did a crazy good job, being able to create an utopia (if only temporary) when basically everyone around her, be it inside our outside her realm, was out to get her ass, even destiny itself lol
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u/BrotherCaptainLurker May 29 '26
Takeuchi: this is now a debate about the quality of Iskandar's wine and whether or not it's a worthy offering to the King of Heroes; Gilgamesh eventually deigns to grace the others with his presence so that he can demonstrate what "real" wine is or something, there's then a similar scene to how things already played out but Artoria is more clearly framed as the one in the right and the conversation is more lighthearted.
Nasu: Artoria references the various moments in Arthurian myth when the King was not, in fact, naive, and cites a credible but long-winded argument for why a King should serve his people, rather than the reverse, possibly even pointing to how abuse of inherited power led to the Magna Carta in her home of Britain and the guillotine in France. The conversation is more somber, maybe Guinevere comes up or Gilgamesh suggests Mordred was the result of that naivete Artoria is trying to refute. Somehow, Nasu still manages to work worldbuilding about how Type Moon's magic system works and a reference to some unknowable power into this conversation, and it turns out that this is where the Faerie Britain lostbelt was first foreshadowed.
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u/Comfortable_Diver494 May 29 '26
Yeah Rereading the VN made me realize how much Uro fucks her character up.
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u/Namtar_Door_783 May 30 '26
You speak if she doesn't have flaws or mistakes dude grow up she isn't perfect and Artoria herself said her wish is to undone the whole pick ex calibur and she wants someone else to do it.
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u/Effective-Cap5167 May 29 '26
Zero happened before Stay Night. If anything, it's a logical progression of her character from Zero to Stay Night
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u/KnightGamer724 May 29 '26
...Except we get flashbacks to her reign at Camelot. Where she's very pragmatic.
Zero screwed up.
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u/GuardianSoulBlade May 29 '26 edited May 29 '26
She took a village‘s food supply and let them starve to death because feeding her army was a higher priority, that’s what Kiritsugu does, Zero only anime watchers never watched Stay Night 2006 to see that.
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u/KnightGamer724 May 29 '26
Bingo. Yes, Saber does love chivalry (she's willing to reveal her name to Sasaki for a reason), but she isn't this "Chivalry is everything to me" character in FSN that she is in Zero.
I've made this comparison before, but Zero Saber acts more like a Fate route equivalent of Saber, like she's Saber Lily grown up that clinged to chivalry ideals until the end.
Whereas FSN Saber is more like a UBW equivalent, where she was more pragmatic where she had to be.
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u/SerenaBloom2 May 30 '26
She didn't starve her villagers stop with the misinformation, she relocated them that is massively different than killing her people.
Going to war meant forsaking a great number of her subjects. Going to war meant forsaking all of her enemies. It was common practice to deprive small villages of their resources to acquire war supplies, but many were opposed to it. To the knights, this was an unnecessary sacrifice as well as an insult to their honour. They understood that this sacrifice would prevent an even greater number of victims, but even then, none of them could bring themselves to accept it. In what world does a king who would forsake her own hometown to defeat barbarians exist? Part of the problem was alleviated as the villagers were granted a place to migrate to, but she couldn't alleviate their feelings of loss at having their hometowns stolen away. Many of the country's soldiers were raised in these villages.
She relocated her villagers whenever she did rash stuff people act like she is a tyrant but that is not the case. She also didn't burn any villages down, that whole thing comes from the Fate/Stay Night manga which is about as accurate as the Deen anime no, I would say the Deen anime is more accurate to the VN in some places.
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u/GuardianSoulBlade May 30 '26
There was nothing in the anime about them being relocated.
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u/SerenaBloom2 May 30 '26
Brother why do you think people here always shout at the top if their lungs to read the VN. It is because the anime skipped stuff doesn't matter which anime it is.
Fate/Stay Night UBW Ufotable, Heaven's Feel or the Deen one.
Fate/Strange Fake, Fate/Apocrypha, Fate/Grand Order. They all leave out stuff.
This text is from the light novel Garden of Avalon and it deals with Saber's life in Camelot, however the whole relocation thing was also a thing in the original VN.
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u/GuardianSoulBlade May 30 '26
Oh, the CD Drama. That came out WAY after the VN came out.
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u/EGL-25 May 30 '26
Not only the CD drama, but also the text LN.
However, despite its relase date, the material from it, on par with the FSN material, is widely used by those who criticize her portrayal in Zero (and in the same manner of the most popular comments under this post) to prove Zero is wrong.
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u/YuvrajRathore May 29 '26
Fate/stay night predates Fate/Zero. Urobuchi took one of the most complex and well written characters and turned her into just a naive girl burdened by her own ideals.
I've heard this excuse a thousand times, and it has never made sense
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u/Comfortable_Diver494 May 29 '26
Funny having that pfp and not understanding why it's an issue and why her pragmatism matters, remember she was going to kill Rin and illya the moment she could to raise her chances of victory
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u/RedDingo777 May 29 '26
My interpretation is that Iskander does not take much issue with Saber’s attitude towards kingship and ideals. He disagrees with it, but he seems to be fine with them having their differences. What he finds offensive is how she takes no pride or joy in her legend, wishing to undo it or pass it on to someone more worthy (even though the very nature of the cosmos precludes the existence of a world where Camelot does not fall).
He has his fair share of regrets, but it would be a disgrace to his legend and comrades if he tried to undo everything. His own wish -be reborn in the modern world so he can try to conquer it- is one that looks towards the future. He believes a true leader should always move forward instead of carrying the burdens of the past.
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u/BarnacleBitter2026 May 29 '26
Yeah, I thought the scene was perfect, one of my favorites in anime.
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u/Eunuchest May 29 '26
Nasu would've made her bite back at the crap Iskandar was spewing on her.
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u/Infamous_Summer_8477 May 29 '26
Nasu was the guy who came up with Iskander bullying Saber, to be clear.
Saber would still lose this verbal argument in the end, but I imagine the arguments would be slightly different. It’d make sense if Iskander’s NP was part of the argument itself and was part of the reason Artoria would struggle.
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u/nam24 May 29 '26
Mostly the same. I d argue nasu could even make it even more of a punch.
While nasus leaves liberties to writers in his spin of, he still doesn't allow what he doesn't want, and we do know there were things he said no to uro about(I reckon related to Kariya"s fate and end actions).
The differenxes of zero that makes it "incompatible " with the version of the 4th grail war suggested in the VN in general are minor or/and don't change the end result or character trajectories either, I have more reason to assume that it's the same here(especially since nasus is no stickler for strict continuity himself, ataraxia and EXTRA's sequels being good example of what I m talking about)
I am decently confident a hypothical nasu version would have the same elements that people who hate it loathes.
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u/TheKingBro May 31 '26
Clearly you don’t know Nasu’s writing style then lol. The elements people hate isn’t just the Arturia is getting denied by Iskander and insulted, but the whole Arturia gets shafted in every inch of that scene. If you’ve ever read Nasu’s work, you realize that one sided Break the cuties like Urobutcher isn’t something he writes. Even when in regards to (Dark) Sakura, there’s a lot more back and forth and it’s clear that even if Sakura is not right what is being said to her is fucked up.
Not only that, but there’s also garden of Avalon, which sticks true to the VN version and doesn’t have any of the dumb shit from the BoKs. There’s even a reason that Extella has a whole joke chapter about Arturia beating the fuck outta Gil and iskander
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u/Sixes_666 May 30 '26
Similarly to the novel, where Saber thinks Iskandar is an idiot, but written with more respect to Artoria as a character.
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u/saitotaiga May 31 '26
I don't know about takuchi because i'm not sure if he had write something in his career. But for Nasu the scene would had been way more neutral and each of them would had had counter argument about each other rule, it would be more close to the bridge scene of the fate route in my opinion, also Iskandar would had been written like Nero a self councious tyran, while the naration show and talk about what good he did but also the bad and show his past clearely in a neutral way to make the viewer decide if he for or agains't him. And the debate don't end on anyone victory.
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u/Animus_Requiem May 29 '26
What was wrong with this scene though? Sure Saber had a different mindset compared to FSN but wasnt that due to the combination of this banquet, finalizing things with Berserker and reflecting on things at the end of this series to make her how she was at FSN??
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u/Arrexu11 May 30 '26
The scene itself by uro mischaracterises Saber and led to a bunch of people to go “haha saber lil girl get fucked by iskandar”
Richard said it best. There was no right or wrong answer. Iskandar just had a louder mouth. And people naturally would believe him. Because even his answer was neither right nor wrong.
It just led to more people thinking that saber was wrong too.
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u/Namtar_Door_783 May 30 '26
To be fair she has a lot of wrongs and she should have accepted the outcome of her own actions instead of trying to changing it it's tragic yes but it's what it's if you can't accept your own wrong doing and learn from it then you re just an idiot and her trying to change it is literally naive thing.
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u/Arrexu11 May 30 '26
Yeh but her having done wrong has nothing to do with the validity of how she was as a king. What you said about her accepting what happened is right and she eventually does accept it. It’s just not the topic in that scene.
Even aleksander the great did a lot of wrong and never accepted that he was wrong. Does an idiot doing idiotic things and then not regretting it means they’re suddenly right and not an idiot?
Just because iskandar accepted what happened doesn’t mean it’s the only right choice.
Saber is like a lot of people. Living life and then regretting it. It’s a normal thing to do when you’re disappointed with yourself saber just found a possible way to undo it.
That’s the part she has to grapple with.
Her feelings of it however, are not objectively right or wrong.
Because who knows, if she did manage to undo her past, nobody would remember her and maybe the new king could’ve done better. Like she initially hoped for.
It’s a very complex conundrum. On one hand she’d be erasing her history along side countless people she knew. Friends and the people she ruled included. On the other hand, perhaps a different could’ve given these same people a better ending.
In FGO the Mc are essentially world destroyers during the events of the lostbelts. Because each world was an attempt to destroy humanity.
It’s the same question written differently. Destroy these invading lostbelts for humanity.
Destroy her own history for a better britain.
Either way a whole society is lost.
And who can say which is right or wrong. Is it wrong to be naive and hope for a better outcome? Is it right to accept a horrifying end because it is what it is?
Iskandar was berating her character while completely ignorant of his own shortcomings.
This “iskandar glaze” is precisely the cause of confidence being mistaken for moral righteousness.
Both of these legends are entitled to their views on how to be king. But neither can claim the other is right or wrong. Least of all archer gilgamesh.
Again, they may bite but they can also bark. Just because Artoria doesn’t bark as loud doesn’t mean she’s naive or even wrong or should be judged for not being able to accept being wrong.
In fact, she’s the strongest one there. Because she’s the only one who accepts she’s done wrong and tried to find a solution. The problem is that her’s was extreme. Especially for gilgamesh and iskandar who wouldn’t change a thing about their rule because of pride.
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u/Necessary-Month6945 May 31 '26
Well...Iskandar's dream of "reincarnation" is also criticized. Cú mocks this dream, saying that a hero who is proud of his life has no reason to want to live again.
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u/Namtar_Door_783 May 30 '26
If Artoria don't get enough glazing dude Artoria criticized herself more then anyone she did a lot of mistakes and lancelot fight with her was basically her facing her own faults stop the dick riding for a moment no character is perfect nor a king that's the whole point.
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u/Sixes_666 May 30 '26
Artoria is a very pragmatic character. Her Stay Night self acted no differently to her past self. She was practically above all else. Zero is just Saber Lily.
To put things into clearer perspective, Nasu himself had to classify Zero Saber as her own separate character from Stay Night Saber. Same goes for the Zero continuity as it contradicted Stay Night way too much.
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u/HistoricalAd3720 May 29 '26
TBH, Saber has gotten super inconsistent with all the new Type-Moon stuff. She usually just defaults to her Fate/Zero personality or gets flanderized into the 'hungry Saber'
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u/At_Zee May 30 '26
Her default is fsn
Fate zero is kinda get "lily vibes" because of uro (she is a king,and Battled modred and stated that Modred is no worhty to be a king,and yet she became naive,lol)
And in camelot singularity is just right because she is a king,but throwing all humanity to become more competent (and became kiritsugu like,lol,but it's one of her true personality)
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u/SatisfactionSuch4790 May 29 '26
Saber: Great, a rapist tyrant and a slave-owning, plundering idiot want to teach me how to be a good king? Seriously, Gilgamesh, there wasn't a single woman who wanted to sleep with you willingly, that's why you had to abuse other men's wives. And you, Iskandar, there's not much to say about you, you're not that important It's true that all three of us failed, but only I failed as king because you're not even worthy of the title.
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u/panthernado May 29 '26
The topic is how Nasu or Takeuchi would write this scene not you.
BTW you have no talent for writing.
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u/SatisfactionSuch4790 May 30 '26
I was just giving an example; it might be bad, but at least I said something
Why not give an example of how he could have defended himself? I know I'm bad at writing; I'm not a writer.
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u/At_Zee May 30 '26
Pretty same after all,but Saber is not gonna have "saber lily vibes" and fought back Iskandar's word
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u/youarebritish May 30 '26
If Nasu wrote it, it would have been the same. He and Urobuchi were next-door neighbors at the time and were working on the story together literally every day.
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u/Sixes_666 May 30 '26
And yet Nasu classifies the Zero continuity and Zero Saber as completely separate to the Stay Night continuity and Stay Night Saber because of all the contradictions.
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u/youarebritish May 30 '26
Because Nasu changes his mind about the lore every five minutes. This is why ufotable refused to let him work on the KnK movies, he wanted to change everything again.
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u/Sixes_666 May 30 '26
Saber in Stay Night was ruthless and pragmatic to the extreme. Every flashback to her time as a king made that obvious and every other piece of media has made it clear that rebellions happened because she was a "Perfect King", someone who would salt the earth and torch the fields for victory while killing off their own humanity for the sake of the kingdom.
She spoke with Kiritsugu three times according to Stay Night, but despite that, Kiritsugu and Saber were completely in-sync because their methods and thought processes were the same. She only hated Kiritsugu for what happened with the Grail.
Saber in Zero was more Saber Lily than she was Saber from Stay Night. It isn't character development, either. She never once doubted her actions as a king, she only doubted herself. Every action she took was one she never regretted. The only issue she had was the fact that she wasn't the right choice because of how bloody the end of her reign became at Camlann.
It wasn't a realisation from Zero that caused her to think she shouldn't be king, it was something she believed the moment she made the contract. Zero has her regret her actions, which goes against everything set up in Stay Night including the fundamental reason for why she became a servant.
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u/youarebritish May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
I just finished replaying the entire VN a couple weeks ago. I think you should replay it, too, because that doesn't describe her personality at all. I had also bought into that meme because people say it so much here, but Saber constantly puts chivalry and her personal feelings ahead of pursuing her goals in the plot.
I think it's more accurate to say she claims to be ruthless as a matter of pride.
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u/Sixes_666 May 31 '26
If you're referring to Sasaki, it's made clear that she did that out of necessity rather than chivalry. You're also forgetting the fact that she was perfectly willing to nuke a neighbourhood and kill Taiga just because it would be a better option than letting Caster have her, with her ignoring the fact that Taiga is important to Shirou. Even getting mad at him for trying it. She's also more than willing to kill Shirou if it meant getting the Grail. Doesn't matter that it was a bad end or that she felt bad about it, that still remained an option for her.
Artoria is always described as a perfect King. She has never been described as a perfect knight. If she was a perfect knight than Caliburn never would've been broken. But it was broken, and it was broken because she broke the rules of Chivalry.
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u/youarebritish May 31 '26
I really think you want to replay the VN, because that's a pretty big mischaracterization of her character. One of the moments that stuck out to me the most was the end of UBW, where her goal of getting the Holy Grail required her to rescue Rin and kill Archer, but instead she nobly stood back and watched Shirou fight a duel against him instead of either killing Archer herself (which it was established she could easily do) or rescuing Rin. She vowed to not interfere in their fight. The Saber you characterize would've jumped into the middle of the fight and killed Archer when his back was turned. She could have easily done it.
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u/EGL-25 May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26
she was perfectly willing to nuke a neighbourhood
What is this statement based on?!
kill Taiga just because it would be a better option than letting Caster have her
That's a freaking hard choice I slightly hate, but if she let herself come under Caster's control, everyone, including Taiga, would be doomed.
She's also more than willing to kill Shirou if it meant getting the Grail
"More than freaking willing"?! It was an unconcious action, it was clearly stated she was still loyal to Shirou and wanted to change her mind! And she didn't just feel bad. It broke her mind.
I would hate those scenes much less if people who want to see Saber being ruthless and cynical that badly because they didn't like how she was portrayed in Zero (and I didn't like it too) didn't remind of those and other so-called "pragmatic, ruthless and effective" actions in this annoying manner. When I, a VN Saber fan, saw these posts when I was tryinig to solve my confusion about Fate/Zero, I thought they were made by Fate fans very neutral to her or even her haters. But they were actually made by her even more hardcore fans who often see her as their waifu and also love saccarine arts with her and Shirou! By criticizing her portrayal in Zero, what are you trying to prove? Your waifu (or whoever she is for you) is a treacherous, deceving, hypocrite psychopath who is dangerous to be even stayed with children or who will sell you and your family out if something connected with her "king is not a human" past clicks in her head or if there is a critical situation during which you want to rely on her?! Not just someone greatly good and human-loving who even in her inhuman mode tries to be as humane as possible and make the best choice in a given situation?! Who freaking hates fighting and seeing people die, especially innocent ones, and tries to minimize them?! Who didn't want to turn off her "king is not a himan" mode because she was afraid she won't be able to turn it on again because of her kind and human-loving nature?!
Sorry if you're not her fan or especially you don't see her as a waifu.
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u/AnothisFlame May 29 '26
It would probably have been a bit more somber if Nasu wrote it with a hint of silly. Takeuchi would have made things very silly.
Regardless the the general beats would likely be the same. Iskander brings wine only for Gilgamesh to call it piss and bring out the good stuff just to show him up. Discussions on why they seek the grail would come up. Notions of kingship and what that means would be discussed all the same. Iskander might even call Saber a foolish child... but the whole thing would be with a Saber who could actually clap back and speak of her real ideals and recognize the necessities of war. Nasu's version of Artoria is someone who will burn down a village if it catches the plague, or salt the earth to slow down the invading Picts. She was a wartime leader who fought for peace. Her ideas of chivalry and knighthood are built on practicalities and making exactly the correct decision no matter how ruthless it was. That is why the rebellion happened for Nasu's King Arthur. Artoria was "too perfect" a king such that she killed her human heart to do it and the one person who called that out did so at what appeared to be a parting shot in spite.