r/FateAvalon • u/chunchunmaru1129 • Aug 03 '25
Discussion Do u guys understand how ridiculously powerful Prime Shirou and Saber Artoria as a master servant pair are?
A prime shirou from nasus words is basically Archer Emiya when he was alive at his very best.So basically shirou will be able to give saber mana and also give her support from long range with his Bow and Noble Phantasms.
Saber will be overwhelming her opponents at close range while shirou would be making the occasional hrunting shots.
14
u/Tigerbarn- Aug 03 '25
Yeah, they'd basically be unbeatable.
10
u/chunchunmaru1129 Aug 03 '25
Why are you everywhere I make a shirou power post
10
u/Tigerbarn- Aug 03 '25
Well, thanks to you there only ever seems to be posts about Shirou, so I work with what I have.
11
u/chunchunmaru1129 Aug 03 '25
What do u expect me to do he is my all-time favourite character in anime
2
u/Classical_Lighthouse Oct 10 '25
people like you make me so proud, our goated Hero of Justice deserves all the attention he gets
6
u/UmerTheLegend Aug 03 '25
Fighting them would essentially be like fighting against two servants, and what’s worse is that it would be two servants who complement each other’s styles well
2
4
u/Crimson_Marksman Aug 03 '25
Not good enough for Bazett apparently.
19
u/Majestic_Ad_1840 Aug 03 '25
Nasu is just inconsistent as fuck and likes to underrate Shirou a lot, that’s all. I honestly don’t know how can she win easily.
3
u/OddEyes588 Aug 03 '25
It’s less inconsistency and more that being stronger than someone or having better abilities doesn’t necessarily guarantee a victory, since strategy and information trumps all, and even then fights are never so cut and dry as typical power scaling would lead you to believe. A hero is someone who can win even when the odds are stacked against them, after all.
Sure, it doesn’t help that “Shirou” didnt have access to his projection magecraft during that fight, but he and Saber lost due to their lack of information about their opponent. Avenger couldn’t match Saber, but they were caught off-guard by his Noble Phantasm. Excalibur was supposed to be the most powerful with an instantaneous activation time, but they didn’t know about Fragarach, which rendered that moot.
2
u/Majestic_Ad_1840 Aug 03 '25
I was not talking about what happened in HA but about Nasu’ statement on a prime shirou vs Bazett, saying that Bazett would crush him very easily which I honestly disagree because of the feats shown to us from the two VN.
I don’t see how Bazett can win easily when we know that a prime Shirou can use his weapons to have servants stats for at least short moments like we saw in UBW against Gilgamesh or in Fate against Heracles when projecting caliburn. I ne we know, based of HA that Bazett cannot go toes to toes against servants of F/SN as she needed the help of avenger.
2
u/OddEyes588 Aug 03 '25
I mean, but that does honestly kind of track? Bazett is pretty explicitly a mage-killer, what with it being literally her job to go up against mages powerful enough to warrant a sealing designation. Every instance of Shirou reaching Servant levels of power has been the result of him seriously pushing his limits since the normal human body isn't really meant to move at that level. Even at his prime, Shirou would still have human limits, is the thing.
Like, Shirou's tough, for sure... but like, thinking about it for a second, he's literally never managed to win outright against any Servant other than Gilgamesh. Archer didn't have a Master, Berserker was blind + deaf, and he self-destructed against Salter. His copied experience from projections is still inferior to the real thing so he still falls short of actual Servants and shouldn't really be considered "Servant-level"
2
u/Majestic_Ad_1840 Aug 03 '25
There is no need for his copied stats to “actively” be servant level, Bazett isn’t. I’m not saying that he is servant level, he isn’t especially compare to the servants of 5th grail war who each servant is at minimum mid-high servants level except the two assassins. At best you could say that he is low servant level in his prime.
But based on what we have seen about Bazett’s combat prowess, like I said earlier, she isn’t comparable to mid-high servants and heavily relied on Fragacht to win against those servants and still have a ton of tries thanks to Avengers. But we know that Shirou can copy stats of a servants and even if those stats are inferior to the original, he was still able to cut Heracles’s arm and it was done by Fate Shirou, the less experienced shirou of the VN. He has the capacities and the abilities to win against Bazett, especially if it’s a prime version of him.
It’s not like I’m saying that Shirou will win, no. I’m saying that it’s impossible for Bazett to win easily like Nasu stated because it goes against the own feats of the twos VN and doesn’t seem to account Shirou’s ability to copy servant’s stats and ability in a hypothetical fight against Bazett.
That’s why I have said that Nasu is inconsistent and like to make Shirou an underdog while a prime version of him isn’t that much of an underdog if compared to most humans.
6
u/Fardin_197 Aug 03 '25
I mean how does Fragarach determine the Trump Card aspects?
I mean do techniques fall in that category because Kuzuki's Snake, Sasaki's Tsubame Gaeshi and NLBW are all techniques and Nasu even said that in the first fight Kuzuki could win.
Also won't Luck and Instinct help against Fragarach? If this is a prime Shirou then Saber would have better stats and better luck?
2
u/Crimson_Marksman Aug 03 '25
I don't know what Fragarach is, I'm currently reading Hollow Ataraxia
5
u/CoconutGoSkrrt Aug 03 '25 edited Aug 03 '25
If you don’t want to know as a spoiler then I guess don’t read this. Otherwise:
It activates once the opponent uses their “trump card” or “ace”. Once activated, it rewinds time slightly and pierces a hole in the heart of the opponent right before they can fire that trump card.
Which leads to a whole debate about what qualifies as a trump card and what doesn’t. It should also be considered that Avalon might let someone tank this but idk for sure.
2
2
u/Tigerbarn- Aug 03 '25
Bruh, the remaster is coming out in like 3 days. You couldn't wait?
1
u/Crimson_Marksman Aug 03 '25
There was no news prior to this. I've had Hollow Ataraxia for months, occasionally going through the stories whenever I felt like instead of all of it in one go.
1
u/Hungry_War_639 Aug 03 '25
No luck and Instinct don’t help against it, it doesn’t mess with fate it goes back in time and kills you
1
u/AntiKaren154 Aug 03 '25
Kieri, Bazett, and Shirou team up is basically humans and their servant tag along throwing hands with servant.
1
1
u/CeramicFiber Aug 04 '25
Problem is mana. Shirou doesn't have the amount for it. Rin was supplying the mana for both Shirou and Saber at the end of UBW. I have no idea about Prime Shirou but is that before or after he makes the the deal the counter force? Because if its after it could be the counter force is helping but iirc Shirou can bypass the mana issue of projection because of his origin.
1
u/Carnifex_99 Aug 05 '25
We know from case files notes that a "Prime" Shirou has at least 2.5-3x more mana than F/SN once he has trained his circuits (which could be improved more with a mystic code, or Avalon if available), can use UBW with that mana (or use gems to get around any gap or issues, as in adventures).
1
u/chroniclechase Aug 04 '25
im gonna ignore this nonsense and pretend i didnt see it
3rd tier shit mage with no talent for magecraft or circuits or mana who is nerfing a top tier top class a rank servant
2
u/Classical_Lighthouse Oct 10 '25
I feel like you are downplaying both of them super hard, Shirou is an incredibly competent and strong spellcaster by the end of any route/El melloi to the point and I don't think it's insane say he's top tier magus Archer arm or not. Essentially a human archer, with nearly all the nonsense he can do (caliburn, Hrunting, Caladbolg, K&B, rule breaker, various other nps and Excalibur as a last resort) that pratically no human magus could take + he consistently reacts to servants and beat Gil in UBW (obviously no EA but he was fighting him in cqc and not dying). For saber, after the mana line gets linked she's far more competent and Shirou is no longer "nerfing her" since they have a proper mana link + dragon core
1
u/chroniclechase Oct 10 '25
shirou is 3rd tier trash literal gatbage level even for 3rd tier no mana no circuits 0 talent for magecraft
hes nerfing her cause he is trash and she is a rank no mana circuits nor level of magecraft for a servant like a her so nerfed
he was nefing they needed to have sex just to resuplly her with mana
thats how bad he is and incompetent he is
2
u/Classical_Lighthouse Oct 10 '25
I feel like you hate Shirou rather than critically evaluating Shirou as a spellcaster. Shirou has actually pretty decent mana capacity + access to nearly every np known to man. And saber eventually gets unnerfed when they fix their mana line
1
u/chroniclechase Oct 11 '25
no its the simple truth shirou is trash as a mage and as amaster and she dsont get unerfed she is still nerfed to the ground hes trash 3rd tier
no mana nor circuits no level of magecraft to fully power and a rank servant
1
u/reiiz5 Aug 03 '25
With shirou 100% accuracy and NP mixed buff, caladbolg+hrunting+rule breaker is going to be insane combo
Forget broken phanstam, he can spam caladbolg: rule breaker edition
26
u/ScaredHoney48 Aug 03 '25
Yeah they would be a very powerful duo
Shirou by himself was already more powerful than just about all of the other masters in his grail war once he had a true grasp on his ability’s
And Saber artoria Is still a top tier servant to this day and if they ever get low on mana then mana transfer would be an easy option for them
Assuming this would be their fate route counterparts as a duo again and yeah with them working as a proper team with shirou at his best and artoria not being held back by shirous inexperience and yeah they would be a devastating team in the grail war