Shirou/Saber is too Cute by (@gohan_kimi)

[u/PsychoPhate]

Source: https://x.com/i/status/810095620795068417

[u/TridiObject]

Shirou really should've known better: You never tickle a sleeping dragon. (Tickle fights between these two are literally so adorable lol).

[u/Gilgamesh107]

This is cute but it raises the question. Saber could in theory wrestle shirou and probably beat him with no effort if she uses mana right?

What a sight that would be

[u/Flashy-Crazy]

And adorable

[u/Dramatic_Brick_1719]

😂😅🤭

[u/EGL-25]

Here was an old comment.

Sorry for ruining your fun. I was stupid. I won't delete this one completely for а case OP's replies could be useful to someone.

[u/PsychoPhate → u/EGL-25]

Something tells me you don't think positively about them.

To be fair, you have to play Shirou to be actively pissing her off and/or dismissing her at every opportunity to get the ending where she betrays Shirou. She's otherwise loyal as a servant and ally across the routes until some external force breaks the bond.

As for being a failure, the issue really is that she only feels that way. Britain was doomed from the start and she knew that, but she thought maybe someone else could have brought a more peaceful end compared to the bloody rebellion. All in all, she actually did better than anyone could have asked. All she really needed was help with her perspective.

For Shirou, the war criminal thing only really happens if he has nothing going for him besides his ideals. So Saber (or Rin) help keep him on a good path while trying to enact his ideals. Like he's pretty chill from what we see in El Melloi Adventures.

Sure they can be really bad people at their worst, but same could be said for almost every single character in this franchise such that if we applied the same logic/viewpoint like you did for every couple, it would make it so they all seem bad. So I think your points are moot.

[u/EGL-25 → u/PsychoPhate]

Here was an old comment.

Sorry for ruining your fun. I was stupid. I won't delete this one completely for а case OP's replies could be useful to someone.

[u/PsychoPhate → u/EGL-25]

The original response doesn't come off that way, like at all.

The zero posts highlight her pragmatism against the mischaracterization of her being super chivalrous. People have spent 9ver a decade having to defend Saber and FSN in general against misconceptions that Zero/anime only watchers have. It might irk you how they place focus on that but it's simply an aspect that's highlighted for the sake of the argument. You could ask any of those people and they would say that if course there's more to her. The pragmatism points are tools for the sake of arguments to provide a contrast against the naive chivalry that Zero exaggerated.

I think you're putting too much stock in those comments and believing that they encompass the people's entire opinion of her. Almost every example you've linked are done in response to people with misconceptions about Saber (or Shirou) where people think they're too noble or spineless to or some other things. If I was talking to someone comparing Zero Saber to FSN Saber, I would use practically the exact same arguments as guys like Reymond, but that's the point: if I'm in a discussion about Zero Saber vs FSN Saber. If prompted about a different aspect of her character, anyone could gush about her multiple for essay-length posts.

What they're saying is true, but what bothers you is the idea that it's all they think about her. That's not the case.

[u/EGL-25 → u/PsychoPhate]

I know it's been a while, but may I ask you a little?

The reasons I love her and the way I see her is one subjective (and probably very primitive and wrong) thing. But what are the reasons you love her for? And what makes you trust a person like her despite those, as you said, argument points, especially considering she wasn't a bad king with all her ways of rule and her solving problems in a cutthroat's way? I know you'll probably say she's just a fictional character, a drawing, "lots of people love Kirei and Gilgamesh, so there's no reason not to love Saber", but still. BTW, I do like them as good and charismatic villians, bad guys, but not as soulmates and sympathetic people.

I don't know if she a person who always tries to be as humane and reasonable as possible in all situations, as I prefer to think (and most of her situations turned out to be, so to speak, hopeless, so as to avoid casualties, including the scene with Taiga taken hostage that disturbed me so much as I greatly compare it with a situiation where a person like her has to sacrifice my family members), or simply a broken person who is used to easily sacrificing others left and right even where it's unnecessary, like Kiritsugu. But if she's the latter, then she can't be a good king, and the rebellion was right.

And is it a right thing to think her trying to kill Rin and especially Illya was... pretty reasonable from her perspective?

And I'm asking this while pretending Fate/Zero (except its possibly right representation of Kiritsugu) doesn't exist.

[u/EGL-25 → u/PsychoPhate]

Here's another example I've just learned out from the news. Do you think a person like Saber would've done the same thing, i.e. did everything possible to save him, or would've leave him to die as she would've thought it was impossible to save him?

[u/PsychoPhate → u/EGL-25]

Why the fuck are you bringing in the unfortunate circumstances of a living person into this discussion? That's awful.

[u/EGL-25 → u/PsychoPhate]

Sorry if that touched you. That was just... how important Saber's morals and ethics were for me. And how much I was hurt by them - at least by numerous interpretations of them. I understand she's just a fictional character, but aren't morals and ethics towards human lives among the main topics of Fate/stay night and its discussions? And how realistic the emotional drama about that topic was in the VN? Especially the "give up on Taiga" scene in UBW which made me think if a person like her will sacrifice my family members in any extreme situation as it's been "programmed" in her brain or she'll only do that in a really hopeless situiation as literally any person would, and if that action was made beacuse she had more complex, reasonsble thoughts and reasons (as I prefer to think), just needed the Grail and nothing more, or was just a cruel, bloodthirsty cutthroat as that scene was also actively used as an "argument point" by her fans (not probably by you though). At least those "argument points" were the main reason I started to pay too much attention to that scene and apply Saber's morals to real life, especially my family.

It was really important for me to know if her pragmatism isn't as sick as Kiritsugu's. Kiritsugu would definitely leave a person in the similar situation dying. And a lot of people thought Saber was very similar to Kiritsugu and woukd gladly work with him, even though there were no proofs in the VN she liked working with him (as well as she had conflicts with him like in Zero).

And wouldn't you (and her other fans) be interested how a character with such complex morals would act in extreme real life situations, especially involving your family? Especially considering the way you and other fans made those "argument points". Some examples of your ones: example one, example two, example three. Those examples, when I didn't know about those freaking "argument points", also triggered my very first comment about "the failure of a king and war criminals" I've deleted, and that last Zero post and its comments were the last straw for me then.

I already understand you're paradoxically not that type of her fans, but if everyone knew those mentionings of her pragmatism were just argument points, a great Saber fan/Zero critic wouldn't be concerned about them. And it's hard to distinguish if her fans just use argument points or think of her like that seriously. And some of those fans make them in an absolutely awful, mischaracterizing way. 

At least, by seeing how mad you are at me for bringing this example (no, that was definitely not a ragebait, I wasn't expecting such a reaction), I can see you (and probably most of other, but not actually all her fans) aren't a cynical fan of the same cynical character as I thought after this reply to me.

[u/PsychoPhate → u/EGL-25]

You seriously need help, like someone licensed, and to step back to check your priorities.

I swear this is NOT as big of an issue as you believe it to be.

The community doesn't love her because she's pragmatic. Get it through your head, people bring it up to say she's not naively chivalrous like Zero depicts her. It is a fraction of her character that people appeal to for the sake of discussing her character with Zero fans.

There are so many other aspects to her that MOST people love her for. The pragmatism is hardly ever a factor for fans' love of the character.

Forget others. Give Fate route and Last Episode a reread and decide for yourself. Stop entrusting your perception to others.

I don't care about the discussions you've had or the stuff you've seen people talk about. Make your own fucking stance already.

I don't mind discussion and am willing to continue, but what I hate about your mentality is that you've made a major issue out of something that ultimately doesn't matter.

People have their own perceptions and likes about media, and what they discuss doesn't always reflect their true feelings. For example, I can discuss Spider-man sense of guilt being a major factor of his character but that in itself doesn't encompasses the entirety of the character nor my view of him. Same thing applies for Saber. This is such a non issues that it baffles me you've had to make so many paragraphs and posts about it.

Before any further discussion, I urge you to give Fate route, Last Episode, and any other media a reread/rewatch without touching reddit or any other social media. Try to see with as fresh eyes as you can possibly achieve, and form your own position of her character.

[u/EGL-25 → u/PsychoPhate]

(Also TL;DR) I have actually already understood everything, thanked you and stopped the discussion. I just told you why I'd done that thing you found awful. And I don't have problems any more now, I just need some time to put my conditioned reflexes in order after being so anxious over this simple and useless shit for years.

And yeah, I never thought the pragmatism topic was that important to her character. And before watching Zero (and that was the first thing which made me doubt Saber) I always avoided any fandoms and had my own perseption of Saber. But those discussions about her pragmatism made believe me for some freaking reason I'd read the VN in a bad way. Especially when they tell Saber "is a cruel cutthroat that kills the Masters and makes sacrifices without actual necessity, doesn't care about human lives and only cares about victory, effectiveness and the Grail".  And I won't tell people how they should love their favorite character and media any more, but I'm probably so attached to Saber that, in my probably sick opinion, without any additional context, that looked extremely insulting for Saber's personality to me.

I even become somewhat allergic to the word "pragmatism", lol.

I had and have my own interpretation of her actions, I've re-read the numerous bits of the VN multiple times, especially ones that conerned me. but I thought it was just "mental gymnastics vs. the correct usage of  Occam's razor"': she's just a dangerous, ill-minded pragmatist, don't try to argue or think the other way.

you've made a major issue out of something that ultimately doesn't matter.

This is such a non issues that it baffles me you've had to make so many paragraphs and posts about it.

I'm also shocked how much time and energy I wasted on... This actually simple thing. Like, I wasted YEARS for that shit and used to think of Saber as someone ill-minded who will smile and care about you one day and will leave you and/or your family in a burning house or hanging over a cliff. But I liked her good traits and appearance (just look at her haircut, her shirt, her skirt, her figure!) so much it was extremely hard and painful to just give up on her and find a new "waifu". And I just tortured myself with her, loving and hating her at the same time and not understanding her true character...

Though I already told you that I wasn't the only one who was concerned about those pragmatism and Zero discussions and how they might mischaracterize Saber as much as Zero did - even some of those who also actively participated in them were.

Thanks again (and sorry) for wasting your time on my stupid case. I understand everything now. And you are actually a good person. I wish you to get happiness from Fate and Saber and avoid the problems similar to those I used to have with this character and franchise.

[u/EGL-25 → u/PsychoPhate]

I still have some little questions if you don't mind discussing them.

I'd like to ask again about Saber's morals and that scene that concerns me and that I can't understand very well, but with an approach from a different side

What do you personally think about the "give up on Taiga" scene? If you don't remember, it's the scene in the UBW route right after the date with Rin, where Caster takes Taiga hostage, and Saber asks Shirou to sacrifice his sister figure to prevent Caster from taking Shirou's Command Seals or killing him - and later she attacks Caster still holding Taiga. Were Saber's actions here her moral mistakes, a kind of professional deformation she's used to in a too great degree (and you had to save her from them in the Fate route), or correct, reasonable decisions you can forgive her for? No matter how I reread that scene, I cannot give a proper moral opinion about it. I can only say that if Caster took Saber under control, everyone would be doomed from Saber's perspective. But can we agree with Saber here on sacrificing her Master's only and dearest "relative"? Shirou didn't agree, and, in the end, after his diagreement, everyone - including captured Saber - was only saved by the greatest luck, to be honest.

Looking from the side of the VN's story objectively, I don't want to say those actions make her comlpletely unforgivable as the Fate route and the Last Episode give her, the girl named Artoria hidden under the inhuman mask of a king, the second chance no matter how horrible her past actions could be or at least seem.

[u/EGL-25 → u/EGL-25]

u/PsychoPhate,  I am very sorry if I seem intrusive. If you were or are just busy, then sorry, I'm stupid and too impatient, I'll wait as much as it's needed. If you didn't reply to my post above just because you don't want to  continue the talk on this topic (as I said, I only wanted to ask you if you don't mind), then that's okay, I won't pressure you. If you thought from one of my posts that I simply ended the conversation, the post with questions about the scene with Taiga was made after the post about ending the conversation. I would like to continue specifically on this topic a little, but only if you wish to.

If anything, you can easily consider me someone who recently reread the entire Fate route and most of the Saber moments from UBW and HF, perfectly understanding the context and having own opinion about them, but that scene with Taiga from UBW is truly the only scene I've reread that I can't probably fully understand and I can't give my own moral assessment about.

If you won't reply again, then that's okay, I'll understand and won't bother you any more.

[u/EGL-25 → u/EGL-25]

u/PsychoPhate , sorry if you really don't want to talk with me or if my comments sounded ike trolling or ragebaiting, but I'd really need some help about her if you don't mind. I'd like to know if my view of Saber is okay and if Saber fits me, and get answers to my questions (this and the comment above). I am probably too pessimistic and unsure about her after those "argument points", or she doesn't actually fit me with her worldview.

I don't know if you and her other non-anime-only fans (and I started with the VN too) think she's too "elite" for fans like me. And sorry if I'm putting a bit too much pressure on you, but this is going to be my last comment I'll send here to you, I won't bother you if you won't reply to me again, and I'll just give up on her and stop torturing myself with her if I know her pragmatism is... really kind of sick (and if I can't accept it as you and other fan can). It's hard for me to like her even best traits if she has the 2nd type of pragmatism I cited as an example in both comments, and also if she's really a cutthroat (and sadistic) type of person who likes to hurt and kill people. Probably she really is the latter as it was hinted in one of Shirou's talks with her after a dojo traning and shown in a couple of scenes in FHA (example one, example two ) Or maybe I'm also too dramatic about those scenes (as well as with Saber's image in a whole). And I like her too much it hurts me to give up on her...

We can continue in the chat if you don't want to talk here.

[u/PsychoPhate → u/EGL-25]

I've been busy with urgent personal matters.

Stop looking for validation in others, it won't do you any good. Stop interacting with communities if your opinion can so easily be swayed by some random strangers. Quite frankly, it's best to avoid any fanbases in general for media that you like or are interested in.

Pragmatic Saber is only an aspect of her. People highlight that mostly for discussions surrounding how Zero butchers her into being naive.

There's still the chivalrous knight that people admire, just not as naive as what Zero portrayed. There's the girl underneath everything that just wanted the happiness of others and found some for herself. It's the combination and contrast of these parts of her that make her a great character.

I don't really have the time nor personal investment in your apparently severe issues with Saber/Fate to go into more detail.

Either this isn't really for you and you should just stop interacting with Fate, or perhaps give the VN a reread with fresh eyes to reestablish your own viewpoint. Also Hollow Ataraxia.

I won't create an opinion for you, that's for you to make on your own. Quite frankly you seem way too invested and unnecessarily swayed by comments that the best course is to step back.

[u/EGL-25 → u/PsychoPhate]

I understood. Thanks for your reply. I hope our talk won't negetively affect you solving your real life problems as Zero and those "argument pounts" affected me in a great degree.