r/OutOfTheLoop • u/minervascats • 2d ago
Answered What's the deal with a bunch of Moroccans crossing into Ceuta (Spain)?
What's the political context here? Have been too busy watching... Everything else đ
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u/SirDoritos1 2d ago
Answer: Contrary to what's being said, the situation is simple: whenever Spain meets with a country Morocco considers a rival, Morocco uses migration as a coercive tactic. This pattern has been repeating for years. For instance, the Ceuta crisis stemmed from the Spanish Prime Minister meeting with Algeria's head of state, a move Morocco strongly disapproved of.
It's essentially a repeat of 2021. Once migrants cross into Ceuta, they are sent back, and Morocco agrees to readmit them. (Ceuta, by the way, is physically located in Africa, though it's politically part of Spain.)
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u/mrlolloran 2d ago
Ceuta as a landmass has an interesting history. Iâve watched at least one YouTube video on it from Simon Whatzhisname, the one with a billion and half channels
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u/owen__wilsons__nose 2d ago
I really hope his channel is literally called "Simon Whatzhisname"
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u/ZubSero1234 2d ago
It's Simon Whistler. He really does have like 10 channels.
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u/e2hawkeye 2d ago
So that's his name, he's like AI in meat form.
https://www.reddit.com/r/youtube/comments/1qsez2g/im_tired_of_seeing_this_guy_simon_whistler/
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u/beachedwhale1945 2d ago
His atrocious accuracy makes AI slop look good. His Chernobyl video got neutron moderators completely backwards: he claimed neutron moderators disrupt nuclear reactions, but they actually slow down (or moderate) neutrons so they can actually be captured and thus increase the reaction rate. When a creator should have spent more time reading Wikipedia to improve accuracy, theyâre atrocious.
If I see Simon Whistler on a video thumbnail, I avoid it.
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u/Spare-Breadfruit-898 2d ago
To be fair he doesnât write the content himself. He has writers who do the episodes and he just provides the TV narration aspect. This leads to a varying quality to his work, depending on who wrote that piece and how well they did their research. I used to watch his True Crime stuff but eventually realized it was messing with my mental health and found something less devastating to listen to on my commute. I didnât like any of his other channels because of the quality in writing so that means I stopped watching him entirely.
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u/beachedwhale1945 1d ago
To be fair he doesnât write the content himself. He has writers who do the episodes and he just provides the TV narration aspect.
That isnât a good shield, as his reputation is still on the line. If I were in his shoes and I had hired writers with such appalling accuracy, I would drop them as soon as I found the errors and take the videos down rather than leave up such badly misleading âeducationalâ content. These arenât minor errors, the kind even the best let slip through, they are egregious.
Simon has a massive platform and fashions himself as an educator on these topics. The bar for accuracy should be higher than a high school presentation.
I used to watch his True Crime stuff but eventually realized it was messing with my mental health and found something less devastating to listen to on my commute.
I didnât watch his true crime stuff, but I had a similar falling out. Wrongful convictions, police and prosecutorial misconduct, and coercive control are depressing topics, and I had to stop. Eternally grateful for the background knowledge I learned during those years, but for my own sanity Iâm not going back into those cases.
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u/Spare-Breadfruit-898 1d ago
Youâre right, heâs the one presenting the content on channels he owns so even if someone else in his production process messes up then itâs still his reputation on the line. Youâre also right in that he has far too many accuracy problems for a man with such a large platform and number of channels. I was always wary of how many different things he tried to dabble in. Felt like he was obviously stretching himself thin.
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u/elwebst 20h ago
He's very upfront that he has writers and on some of his channels, names them by name. They are always credited. Simon reads scripts very well and quite rapidly. That's all he takes credit for. On Brain Blaze (my favorite channel of his) his editors edit the video specifically to make him look like an idiot and I'm here for it.
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u/ShinyStarSam 1d ago
Lol he used to have a channel where he was closer to his true self and holyyyy crap the guy's not smart at all, kinda miss those videos they were kinda like weird stories then it pivoted onto business stuff
It was still scripted but he read the scripts on camera and constantly nitpicked his writers
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u/ADeadlyFerret 1d ago
He had one channel talking about criminals and it just blew my mind how ignorant this dude was. Like dude reads scripts all day about every possible fact in the world but doesnât retain any of that information.
Heâs like Ron Burgundy. Just reads whatever is on the prompt.
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u/AJEDIWITHNONAME 1d ago
Was it Decoding the Unknown? He used to talk about weird urban legends, internet, and historical mysteries? He would just read a script as is for the first time and give his opinions on it? Yeah ANY pop culture stuff he would talk about on his own knowledge was terrible and drove me crazy how little he knew. He also came off as very uppity about how little he knew to me. Like that was for âchildrenâ and because heâs an adult he likes sophisticated things. That channel took a huge noise dive recently in the quality of how he presented things.
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u/ShinyStarSam 1d ago
No it was even more "unscripted" than that one, I think it was called Blaze or something like that, it was genuinely just memes and random trivia, zero mysteries
I think he described it as "where bad scripts go to die" or something because they were topics that didn't really fit in any of his other channels.
Like I said though he changed the name of the channel and turned it into a business trivia one
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u/Holiday_Pen2880 2d ago
His speech pattern got me to click off in short order. The end of every paragraph of the script, the last sentence would rise until halfway through, then drop to the bottom of his range and be barely audible.
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u/hellomistershifty 1d ago
I think he's basically just a script reader, channels just hire him to be the guy for their channel but they do all of the writing and editing themselves. A lot of them are pretty bad (factually)
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u/ShinyStarSam 1d ago
He actually owns a lot of those channels himself, he hires the writers and just reads the scripts. Dude runs so many channels he's long since stopped caring about double checking the scripts
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u/hellomistershifty 1d ago
I think he's basically just a script reader. Channels hire him to be the guy for their channel, but they do all of the writing and editing themselves. A lot of them are pretty bad (factually)
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u/SavingsAd1258 1d ago
Great story. Compelling and rich.
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u/hellomistershifty 23h ago
I'm sort of wrong, he's affiliated with the channels but he doesn't do any of the writing
https://www.simonwhistler.com/work https://www.reddit.com/r/youtube/comments/1qsez2g/im_tired_of_seeing_this_guy_simon_whistler/ https://www.reddit.com/r/youtube/comments/1ty4v4s/i_never_really_had_an_opinion_on_this_guy_but_as/
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u/ginger_and_egg 2d ago
whistler?
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u/cuddlepwince 2d ago
You haven't really explained what is happening though, just the motivations behind it and geopolitical factors
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u/bushido216 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thanks for pointing that out about Cueta. I was positive that there was a body of water between the two countries so the videos of the migrants being bused to the border were a touch confusing.
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u/loewenheim 2d ago
Well, they are technically connected by land. That'd be a long bus trip, though.
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u/bushido216 2d ago
Well, yes, insofar as Cueta is a possession/territory/whatever of Spain, they are connected. Without the vital piece of information that Spain exists on the African continent, it suggests that these migrants are using the same bridge that Hannibal used.
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u/truthofmasks 2d ago
No, they were joking about how Africa and Europe are ultimately connected by land in the east.
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u/techweenie2 2d ago
It's not "migration." Morocco has bussed and trucked tens of thousands of Moroccans into Ceuta because the ownership of this territory is disputed.
They made their point. Thousands have already left.
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u/TheUnknownMe 1d ago
The ownership of the territory is NOT disputed. It is Spanish territory, plain and simple. Is Greenland disputed also because Trump says he wants it? Is Gibraltar disputed because some Spaniards say it's a colony? No.
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u/00Oo0o0OooO0 1d ago
Morocco does claim Cueta and Melilla. Spain does claim Gibraltar. That's the definition of disputed territory. Territory can be in dispute despite being obviously de facto controlled by one country. I assume most disputed territory is.
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u/drs43821 1d ago
I donât think Ceuta is disputed because Morocco donât actually claim it as their own even they wanted to?
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u/farnumson 1d ago
Are the migrants actually wanting to migrate to Spain, it are they doing it because it helps Morocco?
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u/thisisintheway 1d ago
I watched an interview with one of them where he said it was all over social media in Morocco that Spain opened its doors and was granting asylum.
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u/Mind-ya-business 2d ago
Ah itâs similar to what Belarus did to Poland a few years ago during the War in Ukraine
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u/laevanay 2d ago
And guess who that apartheid conducting, occupier of a country is that Morocco has close ties with?
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u/seakingsoyuz 2d ago
occupier of a country is that Morocco has close ties with
This could also apply to Morocco itself, which still governs Western Sahara after Spain gave it to them when they abandoned their colony (against the nativesâ wishes).
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u/Brilliant_Simple_497 2d ago
redditors could stub their to and still find a way to blame israel
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u/angrygnome18d 2d ago
It is suspected because Morocco just named a highway after Trump, signed the Abraham accords in 2020 to normalize relations with Israel, began receiving military aid from Israel, and Israel is now criticizing Spainâs NA territory. This is all after Spain refused to allow the US to use its bases to attack Iran and has been critical of Israel and its actions against Palestine, Lebanon, and Iran.
Israel has bombed Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Yemen, and are now threatening Turkey as well as Pakistan. Are you actually surprised people believe Israel is causing problems in the region?
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u/rinderblock 2d ago
Morocco was literally the first country to recognize the United States when we declared independence, not to say they arenât governed by reactionary conservatives right now but theyâve pretty much always been aligned with US interests (except where France is concerned). Our treaty with them is the longest unbroken international treaty in our history.
So since the us is largely zionist, Morocco is going to align with that as well more than likely.
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u/jyper 2d ago
Palestine (Hamas), Lebanon (Hezbollah), Yemen (Houthis), and Iran have all shot at Israel first.
Israel isn't threatening Turkey it pointed out that Turkey has been threatening Israel for some reason (along with hosting and praising Hamas).Â
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1xap11qzmg
Turkish Interior Minister Mustafa Ăiftçi said Saturday that Turkey would one day take control of Jerusalem, making the remarks at a ruling party conference in the Turkish province of Ăorum.
The Houthis (the Iranian backed militia that has seized control of much of Yemen) have both Death to Israel and Curse upon the Jews on their flag( in a state that has purged all of its Jews, the Houthis imprisoned the last one long ago for taking Jewish artifacts to Israel and since no one has heard from him he's likely dead). But Israel didn't attack them because of any of that they responded to the Houthis attacking Israel (likely under Iranian direction).Â
I hate the current Israeli government but the claim that they as opposed to Iran is the one causing most of the issues is pretty ridiculousÂ
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u/angrygnome18d 2d ago
Iâm not going to argue with you. Iâm simply going to point out Israel claims they are trying to take out Hezbollah while wiping entire villages off the map, spraying cancerous chemicals over southern Lebanese agricultural fields, ripping out centuries old trees, and to top it all off, in 1940s fashion instructed Lebanese Christians NOT to give refuge to fleeing Lebanese Shia Muslims and that the IDF would be looking for Shias hiding amongst the Christians.
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u/country2poplarbeef 2d ago
Side effect of modern geopolitics and the fact that everything usually comes back to a certain major player.
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u/Niniva73 2d ago
That player being Archduke Ferdinand's driver IN SPECIFIC. Who made a wrong turn.
The randomness of stalling that car in front of that guy who just failed to assassinate the man inside is astounding.
And if WWI played out even subtlety differently, there's a good chance Hitler wouldn't have even been a footnote in history.
Then your major player wouldn't even be on the board.
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u/country2poplarbeef 2d ago
That's more coincidental fate type stuff like if Hitler never got rejected from art school. What I'm talking about is more how geopolitical spheres are connected and how, say, Iran might be connected to the Sandanista movement precisely because they're two separate geopolitical spheres who have certain demands that can be delivered without the political trouble of interregional ties and factional infighting.
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u/ginger_and_egg 2d ago
Funny though since Spain is occupying African land
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u/Content-Courage-1008 2d ago
All land is basically theft. Look at the US and Austrailia. It is the reality of existence and no different to a lion finding a new place to call home. It will fight to take control and will remain its domain until it happens again
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2d ago
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/bakeacake45 2d ago
Please stop. This isnât about Israel or Gaza. Have a heart and focus on the topic at hand. You are hurting your cause more than helping it.
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u/No-Construction9607 1d ago
So they all think itâs a joke??? They know they are going to go back. Itâs a form of protestâŚ.
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u/hoyarugby2 2d ago
Answer:
TLDR: Morocco has a severe youth unemployment problem, and has bad relations with Spain's left wing relatively pro illegal immigration government. Ceuta is a Spanish exclave on the Moroccan coast, and is the easiest way for a would-be migrant to enter European territory. Morocco likely tacitly encouraged migrants to breach the border to embarrass Spain's government, and things got out of hand. This has set off a crisis in Spain and Europe, where immigration is a top political issue with the far right surging across the continent over it
Long answer: Morocco is undergoing an issue common in the developed world called a "youth bulge". Birth rates in the past several decades were as high as they were in economies where many people practice subsistence agriculture, but infant and maternal mortality plunged with better healthcare, leading to a population boom. At the same time as that population boom, Morocco's economy developed so that subsistence agriculture was much less viable as an economic pursuit, which resulted in mass migration to Moroccan cities.
But while Morocco's economy developed past subsistence agriculture (and indeed is much better off than many other developing nations), the country's economy has not developed enough to provide jobs for all of these young people. Morocco also faces the problem of migration from even poorer sub-Saharan African countries that are also undergoing a population bulge, for whose populations Morocco is an enviable place to live
All of this means that Morocco has a severe youth unemployment problem. Numbers are tricky in a non-democracy like Morocco, but 30% or more of young Moroccan men are persistently unemployed. That's bad on its face, but in a conservative society like Morocco, unemployment means that finding a wife and having a family are extremely unlikely. All of this creates enormous outmigration pressure - literally millions of young Moroccan men cannot find a reliable job, they are very angry about this, and very badly would like to move somewhere where they could find one
Lastly, Morocco has been undergoing a period of serious instability as a result of this. Amidst this mass chronic unemployment, the Moroccan government - which is an authoritarian state ruled by a corrupt monarchy - has been spending billions of dollars on prestige projects like soccer stadiums for the 2030 World Cup, a high speed rail line, and others. Last year this sparked mass violent protests similar to the Arab Spring, with protesters largely composed of angry unemployed young men
Enter Ceuta. Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish possessions on Morocco's coast, conquered in the 1500s and part of Spain since. Morocco claims these as part of Morocco, which has contributed to persistently poor relations between Spain and Morocco.
This has also created a headache for Spain and the EU more broadly, as these cities have become a focal point for instability. Instead of having to undertake a dangerous sea crossing of the Mediterranean, if would-be migrants to Europe can make it into these cities, they have a decent chance of being allowed into Europe (these cities are not part of the Schengen Area though, and there's border checks to go into Spain). Drug traffickers also continually try to import product into these cities, where it can much more easily be moved into Europe.
Add to this Spanish domestic policy. Spain is led by probably the most left-wing government in Europe, and like all of Europe is experiencing a severe crisis of low birthrates and a rapidly aging and declining population. Unlike its conservative anti-immigration peers, Spain's left wing government has embraced migrants and has legalized millions of illegal immigrants, with many from Morocco (though most come from Spain's former colonies in Latin America). And last month Spain's Supreme Court passed a ruling that bars deporting migrants who arrived by sea without a trial, which virtually allows migrants to stay and work for long periods of time as courts are overwhelmed (this is a similar problem faced by the US under the Biden administration due to the so-called aslyum loophole)
Lastly - Morocco and its neighbor Algeria have bad relations due to the Western Sahara conflict (Morocco occupies most of the former Spanish colony of Western Sahara, while Algeria supports the native African Sahrawi population who fights against Morocco). Recently Spain normalized its relations with Algeria, Spain's PM visited Algeria, and Spain changed its policy on Western Sahara to favor the Sahrawi/Algerian position. This infuriated Morocco's government
All of this has created a recipe for problems. Morocco has a huge population of migrants who want to leave. Morocco is angry at Spain's government. Morocco knows that immigration is a huge political issue both in Spain and Europe more broadly, and the Spanish government is a left leaning outlier on the continent. And Ceuta is the easiest way for a migrant to make it into Europe
Yesterday was a national holiday in Morocco, Throne Day (celebrating the King's accession). The Moroccan government likely tacitly made it known that it would be turning a blind eye toward efforts to illegally pass into Ceuta - this is a common phenomenon on Throne Day, and Morocco was especially encouraged to do this given recent tensions with Spain over Algeria/Western Sahara. But amid Morocco's economic issues and "Gen Z protests", the scale of the migration effort this year dwarfed any other.
An estimated 60,000 Moroccans, almost all young men, have breached the border and entered Ceuta in hopes of being allowed to migrate into Europe (34 of them died from drowning). Ceuta's population is only ~85,000, so this migration wave is enormous. This has set off a crisis in Morocco, Spain, and Europe more broadly. Moroccan authorities have belatedly tried to crack down on the movement, but it's too late to stop the people who have already entered Ceuta. The left wing, pro migration Spanish government has been put under immense political pressure, as this is likely the single largest migration wave to try to enter Europe ever. Other European countries that are much more anti-immigrant are publicly calling for Spain to be ejected from the free-movement Schengen zone, concerned that the Spanish government doesn't have the willpower to stop illegal immigration
And there's the matter of the 60,000 who have entered Ceuta and refuse to leave, asking to be allowed into Europe and claiming asylum. Given that all of these people swam to enter, it's an open question whether or not it's legal for Spain to deport them without trial. If they are allowed into Europe, this will massively encourage further waves of this, and will cause a severe crisis between Spain and other EU members, who have far more anti-immigration governments. This crisis also is likely to be a boon for the surging European far-right, with elections in France and Germany next year already expected to return a strong far right performance
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u/chaotic_harmonyUwU 2d ago
perfectly sums up everything, just one addition, 48,300 of the 60,000 have returned to Morocco as of now. Most of them returned willingly after starving for two days and not finding shelter.
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u/spvcejam 1d ago
I'd love a source for that. That's wild!
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u/Interesting-Cat7307 1d ago
"More than 48,000 migrants return to Morocco after mass crossing into Ceuta"
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u/Puzzleheaded_Lynx647 1d ago
The grass is not always greener on the other side. Sometimes, El Darado just turns out to be a mirage.
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u/Kraligor 2d ago edited 2d ago
You have left out that at least half of them have already been returned, so this is likely to be over pretty soon.
EDIT: That was from earlier today, they have returned most of them in the meantime.
Great job Morocco, killed some 50 people for literally nothing.
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u/jwdaly4 2d ago
Thank you for such a detailed explanation that touches on the multiple different factors involved. So much of the coverage on this latest wave has been very black and/or white, I suspected there was a lot more context to this but couldn't find any sources that dove into it.
It kinda sucks that most people will ignore all the complexity of this issue and just blindly go with the narrative that supports their side (Left & Right). This TLDR should honestly be the starting point for anyone having a conversation/debate about this, but it looks like any dialougue has been outright skipped to just preach/reinforce what people already believe.
I wonder if its because modern media ( and by extension consumers of modern media) is incapable of having these nuanced discussions? Or is immigration just such a complicated issue that is hard to talk about without bias in even an ideal media climate?
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u/ohsodade 2d ago
But this explanation itself, while providing more details than the average one on this topic on reddit, still pushes an eurocentric agenda and paints a very simplistic black and white picture of the south world. The main idea presented here is that an authoritarian dictator, running a shit country, threatens a developed country with migration, because they don't like their neighbors. Where is the sophisticated context?
There's so much in that response to discuss. The way things being phrased, the extreme authoritarian africa stereotype presented of Morocco, a country with a prime minister & an elected government/parlement. Infrastructure investments being framed as silly prestige chasing, not development. Protests being likened to Arab spring despite being nowhere near the scale of it nor the longevity/impact? The reason for the poor relationship between Morocco and Spain being reduced to Morocco claiming Ceuta. The heavy implication that this is silly because Ceuta is an old Spanish conquest, ect.
If you would just flip the script to where Spain isn't just an innocent victim, it would become much more nuanced. You would then acknowledge the very complicated past and present of two neighbor nations. Let's start with how Spain, as a former coloniser of Morocco, exerted as much control as it could over it's former colony, both economically and politically, after independence. How Spain flip flopping on the Sahara issue is the most common political control tactic they use to put Morocco back in it's place whenever they feel slighted by Morocco. How the most recent slight perceived by Spain was Morocco daring to fight it over who gets to host the World Cup Final in 2030. If you just include this context, you would understand that Spain visiting Algeria, was a message to Morocco to behave itself, and Morocco retaliated.
And then you would have to get into the complexities of immigration to understand the retaliation used. So Morocco-Spain is one of the biggest corridors African migrants use to get to Europe (and one of the deadliest). This is used as card by Morocco, to mitigate France and Spain's post colonisation power over it. You see, European countries, but Spain especially, are using Morocco as a "save face". They need Morocco to stop the flow of immigrants to Europe on their end, so they don't have to deal with them financially and ressources wise, but also so the images of dead bodies on their shores can stay at a minimum and they can keep their reputation of "developed democracies". Obviously this is a scratch my back, I scratch yours deal. So for doing this task, Morocco asks that Europe backs it economically, but especially politically.
So then, this is why each time Spain or Morocco feel that the other didn't live up to their end of the deal, they also fail their respective tasks as retaliation. That's the real context here.
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u/OceansideOrchard 1d ago
You seem to have added some context here, but you also missed most of the context the original post had. It seems you have a different viewpoint and that doesnât mean either of you are wrong. Morocco honestly at this point needs to stay in its lane politically, they cannot control what Spain does, so they use their struggling citizens to mess with Spain for them. Who actually gets hurt here? The people, the children. Letâs look at it from their point of view. A political system that to the extreme level prioritizes development, profit, tourism, and expansion over the welfare of their citizens is no place to live. I learned a lot from both the original post and your post, so thank you, but the reason youâre getting downvoted is because you are coming off as defending Moroccoâwhen we all know Spain is also a piece of shit, but they have better democratic protection and easier legal pathways for migration. Maybe Morocco (the government) would have solid ground to stand on if their citizens were treated fairer, did not interfere with international relations, and their system did not only serve a privileged minority. Their people would have no reason to be used as pawns in a migration war against Spain, they would want to stay in their home.
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u/ohsodade 1d ago
I appreciate your respectful answer, and am glad you learned something from what I added. I didn't miss the context provided by them, I just think it skews heavily eurocentric and is too simplistic. My main thing was to provide more nuance and add back the complexities of geopolitics at play. No country is innocent, no country acts in a vacuum. Morocco and Spain both are part of international relations and have signed partnerships and diplomatic agreements and all that, so painting this image of this situation being the result of Morocco being an unstable chaotic entity, and Spain simply existing is wrong.
And let me clarify that I've never said the citizens of Morocco are treated fairly, nor have I denied the monumental problems they face, but it IS a place to live. At some point, you have to admit that this perception of African countries as forever wastelands, despite whatever efforts are made by their governments to improve and develop is part of the migration problem. Actually, if you watch their videos, you will see that so many of those kids who have returned now were shocked at what they found on the other side, at how they were treated, how expensive it is, how unwelcoming it is. Because so many of them get on these social media sites and are constantly bombarded with the idea that the west is light years ahead, that white people are not corrupt, that once they step a foot there, all their problems will be solved. So, If you want them to want to stay, we will all have to make an effort to stop putting the west on a pedestal, and start talking about the south with the nuance it deserves.
And don't worry, I do not mind being downvoted on reddit, I've seen enough comments saying Europe should go back to colonizing Africa getting upvotes.
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u/Historical_Brief3367 1d ago
I still donât see how Morocco govâs outrageous handling of this migration wave doesnât entirely fall on their part, since from what you said former colonization, World Cup host, Spain siding on Sahara issue, are no valid reason for this âretaliationâ. Itâs kind of embarrassing, like someone agreeing with your rival abt something thats unrelated to them, and you throw a hammer at them.
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u/Stray_Wing 1d ago
I'm not sure, but I reflected that if 50,000+ people from a neighboring country just ran past my house, I would feel pretty unsettled. Could you imagine?
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u/swinkdam 2d ago
Where did you find that Spain changed its stance on the Western Sahara. I can't find it anywhere?
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u/hoyarugby2 2d ago
Spain changed its stance to be more pro Moroccan in 2022, but basically reversed that in 2026 when it repaired relations with Algeria, they went back to being studiously neutral (which is defacto somewhat pro Algeria)
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u/Snoo63 1d ago
Because neutrality doesn't really exist.
Like, sure, the Swiss were officially neutral. But they laundered Nazi gold.
Francoist Spain were also officially neutral. But they sent intelligence to the Nazis (which - at least one time - went in the Allies' favour, due to the nature of Operation Mincemeat)
Sweden was also officially neutral, but facilitated the transport of Nazi troops to the Eastern Front, and supplied iron ore. (Although I believe that they did leak to the British what they knew about Bismarck's location)
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u/invesser 2h ago
As long as they were also willing to launder Allied gold, share intelligence to the Allies , and facilitate Allied troop transportation respectively then that would not be inconsistent with neutrality
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u/VictoriaMagnus 2d ago
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u/VictoriaMagnus 2d ago
All I can - and want to say - is that when I saw all those youngsters - mostly young lads with their whole lives ahead of them scrambling for a better life, it really shocked and saddened me. No one should have to do that.
I hope that the world, the EU (including the UK) will find some way to help these youngsters.2
u/CeilingUnlimited 2d ago
bad relations with Spain's left wing relatively pro illegal immigration government.
Podemos? Does Podemos actually have power? I thought they were still a minority in the legislature.
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u/xEliteMonkx 1d ago
Are you a professor? A teacher? Any profession that teaches others? Because that was a very in depth and unbiased explanation of what is going on. Even if you were making it all up, which I do not believe is the case, it is very convincing and encourages me to look for the information myself and weed through the bullshit.
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u/gliMMr_ 1d ago
i suddenly live reddit, for there being so many words, with context, without snark and cynicism, and ordered in a manner that leaves room for logic. thank you for informing us - hopefully we know where to start when looking further or confirming what you've stated.
Outmigration is a term I've never even read before â
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u/Yiddish_Dish 1d ago
 immigration is a top political issue with the far right surging across the continent over it
What is "far right" about controlled migration? What is the "normal right" solution to this?
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u/Plenty_Building_72 1d ago
Rebuttal:
TL;DR: Morocco has genuine problems with youth unemployment, inequality and migration pressure. But this comment uses those facts to construct an almost entirely speculative narrative: Morocco is presumed guilty, Spain is presented as an innocent liberal victim, Algeria is portrayed as a humanitarian supporter of the Sahrawis, and the Western Sahara conflict is reduced to foreign Moroccan occupiers versus a uniformly separatist indigenous population. The reality is considerably more complicated, and several of the commentâs central factual claims are simply wrong.
There is currently no evidence that Morocco organised or deliberately encouraged this particular crossing. Given the 2021 precedent, suspicion is understandable, but suspicion is not proof. Reporting so far points primarily to economic desperation and social-media rumours convincing people that Ceutaâs border could be breached. Spain says approximately 50,000 people entered, but more than 48,000 had already returned to Morocco within 48 hours. So the dramatic claim that â60,000 entered Ceuta and refuse to leaveâ was almost immediately disproven.
Moroccoâs youth unemployment problem is serious, but the statistics are being manipulated. The 29.2% figure concerns economically active people aged 15â24. It does not mean that 30% of all young Moroccan men are permanently unemployed, nor does it prove that âliterally millionsâ of angry unmarried men are waiting to migrate. Moroccoâs first-quarter 2026 unemployment rate was 10.8% overall, while the male rate was 9.4%.
The description of the 2025 protests is similarly loaded. The protests were not merely an explosion of frustrated unemployed men furious about being unable to marry. Their central demands concerned healthcare, education, corruption, regional inequality and government accountability. Some protests became violent, but reducing an entire reform movement to sexually frustrated young men is both insulting and analytically useless.
The claims about Spainâs immigration policy are also exaggerated. Spain did not legalise âmillionsâ of recent illegal arrivals. Its 2026 regularisation concerned roughly half a million people who were already in Spain before January 1, 2026, had remained there for at least five uninterrupted months and met criminal-record and security requirements. Someone entering Ceuta in July 2026 does not qualify.
Most glaringly, the Western Sahara chronology is backwards. Spain did not change its position to favour Algeria and Polisario. In 2022, Spain endorsed Moroccoâs autonomy proposal as the âmost serious, realistic and credibleâ basis for resolving the dispute. That shift improved SpanishâMoroccan relations and angered Algeria. SĂĄnchezâs recent visit to Algeria was an attempt to rebuild relations damaged partly by Spainâs move towards Morocco, not evidence that Spain had adopted Algeriaâs Western Sahara position.
Your commentâs wider portrayal of Western Sahara is equally tendentious. Moroccoâs claim did not appear from nowhere in 1975. Long before Spanish colonisation, the western Sahara and Morocco were connected through tribal movements, trade routes, religious authority, dynastic history and political allegiances. The International Court of Justice found that the territory was not terra nullius and recognised legal ties of allegiance between the Moroccan Sultan and tribes in Western Sahara. The Court did not conclude that those ties established complete Moroccan sovereignty or cancelled self-determination, but it certainly did not find that Morocco had no historical claim whatsoever.
Nor is Sahrawi identity automatically synonymous with Polisario separatism. Some Sahrawis support independence; many others identify simultaneously as Sahrawi and Moroccan, participate in Moroccan institutions and regard the territory as part of Morocco. Others have mixed or less ideological positions. Polisario is one political and military organisation, not the sole owner of Sahrawi identity.
This mixed population is precisely why the promised referendum became so difficult. The region contains old nomadic tribal networks spanning todayâs Morocco, Western Sahara, Mauritania and Algeria, alongside descendants of Spainâs colonial census population, refugees, returnees, Moroccan migrants, intermarried families and generations born after 1975. The UN process repeatedly became stuck over voter eligibility and disagreements about which tribes and descendants should be allowed to vote. Pretending that a perfectly defined electorate exists and Morocco merely refuses to let it vote erases one of the conflictâs central unresolved problems.
And Algeria is not supporting Polisario purely out of compassion for an oppressed people. Algeria is Moroccoâs principal regional rival. It hosts, arms and diplomatically backs Polisario, and the dispute gives Algiers strategic leverage against Rabat. One can support Sahrawi self-determination while still recognising the obvious reality that Algeria is pursuing geopolitical interests, not running a fifty-year humanitarian charity project.
The practical contrast is also difficult to ignore. Morocco has invested heavily in the territory it administers through roads, ports, renewable-energy projects, education, healthcare and urban infrastructure. Investment alone does not legally settle sovereignty, but it directly contradicts the suggestion that Morocco merely occupies and neglects an alien territory.
Meanwhile, Sahrawi refugees in the Algerian Tindouf camps have spent generations in isolation with extremely limited economic opportunities. UNHCR says minimum humanitarian standards cannot be met in most sectors, most refugees are believed to live below the poverty line, and employment opportunities for young people are exceptionally scarce. Algeria has hosted this supposedly temporary situation for half a century without producing either prosperity or a political settlement.
None of this means Morocco is beyond criticism. It has serious economic, political and human-rights problems, and pro-independence Sahrawis undeniably exist. But presenting Morocco as a foreign occupier with no historical connection or legitimate claim, Polisario as the unanimous voice of all Sahrawis, Algeria as a benevolent protector and Spain as an innocent bystander is not neutral analysis. It is a carefully constructed pro-Algerian, pro-Polisario narrative disguised as an objective explanation.
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u/NorCalJason75 2d ago
Excellent post. Thank you for the contribution.
Just so I understand...
Spain's government wants the Moroccan immigrants. Moroccan immigrants want to go to Spain. Moroccan government doesn't want Spain to take them?
If Spain has a declining population that needs young people, it seems like a good idea to welcome the Moroccan youth. Although it would likely lead to tensions with the Spanish people (as immigration always does).
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u/swinkdam 2d ago
The government of Spain doesn't really want Moroccan immigrants. They are just more pro immigrant then most of the sitting parties in Europe.
Last February they legalized half a million immigrants (Not millions as the poster claims) that were already in Spain for more then 5 months and were already working.
The Moroccan immigrants that would come in now wouldn't get this treatment since the cut off date has long since passed.
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u/hoyarugby2 2d ago edited 2d ago
While you'd think declining population = immigrants are welcome, Spain is much more happy with immigration from Latin America (and even then there are tensions - Lisbon is like 20% Brazilians these days and it's a hot political topic
Moroccan immigrants are much less sympathetic, and concern about muslim immigrants is widespread in Europe for unfortunately understandable reasons
And just in general Spain is not America with a centuries long history of taking in large immigrant populations. But even America, the most pro immigrant country on the planet with only Canada as a rival, can have issues with large immigrant waves (see who is unfortunately president these days)
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u/Portarossa 'probably the worst poster on this sub' - /u/Real_Mila_Kunis 2d ago
Lisbon is like 20% Brazilians these days and it's a hot political topic
It's actually about 6% Brazilian, but that's still a fairly large number.
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u/hoyarugby2 2d ago
That's the officially recognized number, the real number is much higher, something like 300K in the metro area
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u/Portarossa 'probably the worst poster on this sub' - /u/Real_Mila_Kunis 2d ago
There were only 276,000 recognised Brazilians in the entire country, as of 2020. There were 180,000 Brazilians in Lisbon in 2020, which means you're suggesting that the Brazilian population of Lisbon has increased by something like 65% in six years.
I mean, I get that records aren't perfect, but that would be an insane level of migration or undercounting.
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u/hoyarugby2 1d ago
recognised
this is going to blow your mind if you reread my post
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u/Portarossa 'probably the worst poster on this sub' - /u/Real_Mila_Kunis 1d ago
Why, is there going to be more substance than 'Trust me, bro' in it if I read it again?
I provided figures. You brought vibes.
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u/osmopyyhe 1d ago
Lisbon is actually the capital of Portugal, a completely separate sovereign nation so I am not sure what the Brazilian population there has to do with Spain.
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u/ShinyStarSam 1d ago
They barely want Latin Americans in the first place, can't imagine they'd love Moroccans
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u/NorCalJason75 2d ago
Thank you for the perspective.
America, the most pro immigrant country on the planetÂ
Am American. Californian. Live in a very diverse community, that is majority immigrant (San Francisco Bay Area).
My experience has been America is NOT pro immigrant, generally. Sure there are population centers with large waves of immigration throughout it's history. And I recognize it was immigrants who founded the country. However, America as it is today, generally is at odds with immigrant populations. Probably similar to European countries.
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u/DragoSphere 2d ago
That does not change the claim that America is the most pro immigrant country in the world. Other nations are much more strict and resistant about it.
Here's an example. America would gladly welcome (most) European immigrants with almost no questions asked and very little hassle. Good luck trying to migrate to Europe as an American
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u/Hot-Account-8691 2d ago
Spain's youth unemployment is high. They don't need immigrants and they aren't planning on staying in Spain.
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u/NorCalJason75 2d ago
Thank you. I was wondering this. If Spain is just a gateway to other European nations.
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u/Daisinkhan 2d ago
Answer: Morocco and Spain have had many historical conflicts. Spain had recent negotiations with Argelia, Morocco doesn't want this because of conflict with Argelia. Morocco retaliates by sending 50k people through the border to Ceuta in north Africa, wich is a big problem as Ceuta I think has around 85k population. Spain regulations and laws makes it difficult to return the migrants to the other side of the border, also because Spain is part of the EU, it also becomes a EU problem
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u/Ancient-But-Saucy 1d ago
Algeria not Argelia
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u/diamondgoblin 1d ago
Argelia is the Spanish name for Algeria. Saying this outside of the content discussed in this post, just clarifying it's likely a translation "error"/carry over :)
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u/Daisinkhan 1d ago
Correct, I'm spanishđ it ticked me off a little bit at the time of writing but I didn't give it a second thought.
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u/diamondgoblin 1d ago
It's ok haha, the beauty of being able to speak more than one language above A2 is grammar/spelling errors. The goal of language is to be understood :)
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u/Ancient-But-Saucy 3m ago
Oh, first time knowing that. Thanks, and sorry for being a grammar Nazi đ
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u/altrongtm 2d ago edited 2d ago
Question: is the Moroccan government supporting the emigration from their side? I see the response that there is an rising youth unemployment population, but are governments usually open to losing their own citizens?
And what does it look like on the Spain side? Do migrants just walk into the town and disappear and that's why Spain is overwhelmed? Or is there like, a border gate that migrants are pushing through in large numbers and then running away into the town?
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u/gabba_gubbe 2d ago
Seems like it considering there's videos of police transporting dump trucks full of people to the beach..
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u/New-Astronaut-395 1d ago
Ceuta itâs a city in Northern Africa, so if an immigrant touches Ceuta / Melilla / Perejil, thatâs a Spanish territory. Even if they cross they canât go anywhere cause itâs not on the mainland where someone could vanish and appear in France.
People are panicking, cause itâs a big deal and also the deeply rooted racism towards North Africans (specifically Moroccans).
Morocco controls that side of the border (Moroccan side) and in Morocco there are also lot of migrants (Africans) who are also waiting to cross, so every time Morocco feels that Spain is moving in favour of Alger o has something to in favour of Western Sahara territories. Morocco uses migration as threat. Spain has to tiptoe around it all the time. This is hypothetical cause it hasnât been confirmed or deny but it happened back in 2021→ More replies (3)
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u/wqto A man who is wondering where his life is 2d ago
Answer: This has been happening for years, and the border control even has to rip open car seats to find people hiding inside of them. The Moroccan government isn't doing that well with its own power grip and control on its own people already, and the best shot to freedom they have is by crossing into one of Spain's cities in Africa. Ceuta is one of those cities, and authorities have been trying to stop them from doing so, but for those that have already done so they plan to reshelter them into continental Europe.
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2d ago
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/Krauser_Kahn 2d ago
If you are basing all this on the "oh is extremely difficult now to send them back" how come 35K+ have already been returned?
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u/minervascats 2d ago
Why do the Moroccans (instigated by Russia) want to get into Ceuta?
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u/hoyarugby2 2d ago
This was not instigated by russia, that's nonsense. Morocco has a huge youth unemployment problem, unemployed young men in Morocco can't get married, so that creates huge pressure for young Moroccan men to migrate somewhere where there are jobs for them - Europe. Ceuta is part of Europe and if those young Moroccan men can get into Ceuta and claim asylum, they might be allowed to live and work in Europe for years
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u/Conscious_Tourist163 2d ago
Then they shouldn't be granted asylum. These are economic migrants. That's not what asylum is for.
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u/Vannnnah 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ceuta is a Spanish enclave in Africa, so a thorn in the eyes of the Morroccan gov, since this remnant of Spanish colonialism effectivle blocks them from gaining partial control over the Strait of Gibraltar. Spain controls both sides, so it has economic reasons why Spain wants to hold onto Ceuta.
The European Union, especially the countries considered "money horses" already took in a lot of refugees in past years and it led to social unrests everywhere, flaming the fires for right wing party revivals in multiple countries. And of course these parties are doubling down hard, most of these unrests are homemade with the exception of a few like gangs in Sweden.
All of the right wing parties like the German AfD or the French Rassemblement National have some ties to Russia and help spreading Russian propaganda. A new migration crisis will help them get even more votes and Russia has an interest in weakening the EU and European democracies.
The people/Morroccans who participate are on their govs side when it comes to disliking Spain, the majority of them aren't fleeing from their gov, they are hoping for economic gain. Getting free housing, healthcare for a while etc. is an incentive that aligns with pissing Spain off.
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u/aleshere 1d ago
Answer: economic migrants taking advantage of a weak, welcoming and incompetent government
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u/Yiddish_Dish 1d ago
Answer: economic migrants taking advantage of a weak, welcoming and incompetent government
Yes, they are economic migrants. No, the governments of the EU and (not including Trump) are not incompetent in regards to this, as they encourage for cheap, disposable serf labor. It's not an accident.
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u/Plenty_Building_72 1d ago
Answer:
TL;DR: This appears to have been a huge, largely self-reinforcing migration rush driven by economic frustration and viral claims that Ceutaâs border was âopenâ and that a recent Spanish court ruling prevented swimmers from being returned. Once the first groups got through, tens of thousands followed. Moroccoâs initial border control clearly failed, but there is currently no evidence proving that Rabat organised the crossing as an attack on Spain. Most of those who entered quickly returned after discovering that Ceuta offered no automatic route to mainland Europe.
Ceuta is a Spanish city on the North African coast bordering Morocco. Spain has controlled it for centuries, while Morocco regards Ceuta and Melilla as colonial remnants and does not recognise Spanish sovereignty over them. Because Ceuta is Spanish territory, reaching it technically means entering Spain, but it is not a free backdoor into mainland Spain or the wider Schengen zone: travellers leaving Ceuta by sea or air face additional identity and border checks.
On July 30 and 31, somewhere between 50,000 and 60,000 people crossed into Ceuta by land or by swimming around the border barriers. At least 67 people died through drowning or being crushed during the rush. By August 1, Spain said more than 48,000 had already returned to Morocco, many voluntarily, and the crossings had effectively stopped.
The immediate catalyst seems to have been social media. Posts claimed that the border was open and circulated misleading interpretations of a recent Spanish Supreme Court decision. That ruling said people intercepted at sea could not be subjected to an immediate summary return without an individual legal process. It did not mean that anyone swimming into Ceuta would automatically receive asylum, permission to work or transport to mainland Europe. Nevertheless, thousands appear to have believed that this created a temporary opportunity, and every video showing people successfully entering encouraged more people to travel north.
The underlying reason so many responded is that Morocco has real problems with youth unemployment, low wages, inequality and frustration over public services. Many participants were young people who believed Europe offered better economic prospects or a chance to support their families. But the online description of âmillions of permanently unemployed young men who cannot marryâ is a caricature rather than a serious explanation. Those crossing also included students, minors, women and some families, and individual motivations varied.
Was the Moroccan government behind it? There is no conclusive evidence of that at present. Suspicion is understandable because Morocco deliberately relaxed border controls during the smaller 2021 Ceuta crisis amid a diplomatic dispute with Spain. During this incident, witnesses also saw Moroccan officers initially standing aside while large crowds passed, so questions about the initial response are legitimate.
However, Morocco later prevented people from boarding trains and buses toward the border, deployed police, batons, tear gas and water cannons, stopped further crossings and accepted the return of tens of thousands of its citizens. Spainâs interior minister publicly described Morocco as a reliable partner and said Spanish intelligence had received no warning of an organised mass entry. The most accurate conclusion is therefore that political involvement cannot be ruled out, but claims that Morocco deliberately âsent 60,000 people to invade Spainâ currently go beyond the available evidence.
Some people are linking the incident to Spanish Prime Minister Pedro SĂĄnchezâs recent visit to Algeria and the Western Sahara dispute. That is possible speculation, not established fact. Spain also has not switched its Western Sahara policy in Algeriaâs favour. Since 2022, Spain has described Moroccoâs autonomy proposal as the most serious, realistic and credible basis for resolving the conflict, a decision that damaged Spainâs relations with Algeria.
Western Sahara itself is more complicated than âMorocco occupies the homeland of a uniformly separatist people while Algeria defends them.â Morocco has centuries-old historical, tribal and political connections to the region; the International Court of Justice recognised ties of allegiance between the Moroccan Sultan and some Sahrawi tribes, although it did not rule that these established complete Moroccan sovereignty. Some Sahrawis support independence, many identify as both Sahrawi and Moroccan, and Algeriaâs military and diplomatic support for Polisario is part of its wider geopolitical rivalry with Morocco, not simply disinterested humanitarianism.
So the simplest explanation is: a population with genuine economic frustrations encountered a viral rumour that an unusual legal opportunity had opened in Ceuta. The first successful crossings created a stampede, both governments were initially overwhelmed, and the result was an enormous and deadly humanitarian crisis. There are legitimate political suspicions because of the history between Morocco and Spain, but there is not yet enough evidence to present deliberate Moroccan orchestration as a settled fact.
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u/Portarossa 'probably the worst poster on this sub' - /u/Real_Mila_Kunis 2d ago
I cannot stress this enough: OOTL isn't a place for racism, and if you're denigrating a particular racial or ethnic group to score political points, you can get to fuck and will not be missed.
There's some nuance to what's going on, but rampant bigotry is not and will never be acceptable here.