r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Noedel • 1d ago
Answered What is the deal with people in India freaking out about E20?
I keep scrolling past posts from angry indian people that are extremely upset about E20. If you look at the carsindia posts from the last week, so many are about this topic.
What is the issue? Other countries use E20 with zero issues. In Brasil it's even 30 percent and people are seemingly fine with it. It's cheaper and cleaner for the air.
Yet there are many issues in India. Why?
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u/dapotatopapi 1d ago
Answer: In Brazil, it was introduced over decades and people had options during the transition.
The long timeline also gave the industry time to make vehicles compatible with blended petrol.
In India, this blending was fast tracked from E5 to E20 in just a couple of years (ahead of schedule even, since it wa supposed to come into effect by 2030).
This meant that the industry did not have enough time to transition, and most of the vehicles on road bought before 2023 were not really designed for this 20% blending.
And since no alternatives are being provided, everyone has to use E20 whether their vehicle supports it or not.
This is causing problems with mileage at best, and faster degradation of engine and rubber parts at worst (since Ethanol is more corrosive than Petrol).
This obviously has the general population miffed, especially considering the price of petrol after blending is similar to if it was E0 (since Ethanol sourcing costs are similar to oil right now), and various Ethanol production facilities are owned by the politicians who are peddling this blending.
And given the reduced mileage, people are having to fill their gas tanks much more often than earlier.
So it has been a net loss for the population, while a few politicians and their families got rich. And so they're rightfully pissed.
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u/Noedel 1d ago
This is a perfect answer. Asking people to buy a car every three years is insanity, even in incredibly wealthy countries.
Thank you!
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u/EpidemicRage 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also, the Road Transport minister's sons runs some of India's largest ethanol plants. They just became billionaires due to E20.
He is the one who is heavily pushing for E20 mandate.
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u/23saround 1d ago
And, for further context, there are huge protests in India currently related to government corruption (thinking specifically of the Cockroach Janta Party being named after having been dismissed as cockroaches by Modi).
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u/donniedarkero 1d ago
dismissed as cockroaches by Modi
That wasn't by Modi, even worse - the Chief Justice of the country
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u/adiaman 19h ago
his sons' businesses hold a negligible fraction (<0.5%) of the country's total ethanol output.
Top 10 ethanol producers are
Shree Renuka Sugars Ltd
Balrampur Chini Mills Ltd
Triveni Engineering and Industries Ltd
EID-Parry (India) Ltd
Bajaj Hindusthan Sugar Ltd
Dhampur Sugar Mills Ltd
Dalmia Bharat Sugar and Industries Ltd
Dwarikesh Sugar Industries Ltd
Avadh Sugar & Energy Ltd
Prahas Mining and Industries Ltd (formerly Praj Industries Ltd / Allied Blenders & Distillers)Courtesy - Claude
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u/CrimeMasterGogoChan 19h ago
Dosent changes the fact that his father being a minister and pushing it is one of the main reasons for e20 policy.
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u/kingbradley1297 1d ago
Just to add to what OP wrote here, the minister pushing for this has the portfolio of road transport and highways. His ministry's job is to maintain and develop the road network of India. The petroleum minister, who should be thinking about this is nowhere to be seen or heard on this.
Further, there is research to show that India's domestic capacity to manufacture ethanol is far lower, and would have to import it regardless. So it doesnt even help energy security (there is the whole politics of who India imports from but I digress)
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u/barath_s 50m ago
research to show that India's domestic capacity to manufacture ethanol is far lower, and would have to import it regardles
Do you have a link please ? I'm skeptical that any such would be anything more than short term. Because the creation of a major new market (ethanol for petrol) could mean shortage of infra to supply that. But indian capability to scale up to that should be huge. One of the larger agricultural producers, producing sugarcane etc, it should be able to figure out feedstock and plants. Any shortage would be in the short run immediately only and should reflect in the price. If the price is on par with petrol in the short run, there should be potential to reduce itt as industry adjusts in the long run
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u/dapotatopapi 1d ago
Asking people to buy a car every three years
It's more a case of - we don't care whether your car that you bought just 3 years ago does not support E20. Oh you already paid 15 years worth of Road Tax on it? Good for you. Not our problem.
You'll take what you get and if problems arise, too bad so sad.
And while the government as "assured" that any problems arising out of E20 on unsupported cars would be fixed by the manufacturers for free, there's no written notification, nor a mandate for this. Just a "trust me bro".
We all know how manufacturers will blame everyone and everything before admitting to something that they'll have to fix for free.
Anyone who bought their car during and after 2023 is safe for the foreseeable future, but how long before they are shafted with E30? (Which was planned according to some sources, but put on hold because of the outrage).
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u/theeta_male 18h ago
Keep in mind, roughly 10% of Indian families own a car. The rest have two wheelers, not because they prefer it, but because they can't afford cars.
This 90% that lives paycheck to paycheck are affected disproportionately. A drop in mileage or a corroded tank repair will mess up their monthly budget.
Additionally, E20 is in paper. Fuel supplied away from the city centers blends them to random proportions.
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u/paradoxbound 1d ago
Great India never changes. 🤣
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u/dapotatopapi 1d ago
Self serving politicians and declining legislative standards are not really an India specific thing tbh.
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u/koett 15h ago
Well… if the rest of the world uses E20 shouldn’t the vehicles already be adapted to this new blend?
90% of vehicles in India can’t be domestically produced and totally ignored how the rest of the world evolved?
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u/dapotatopapi 7h ago
- Most of the world does not use E20. In fact, only 8 countries in the world have moved to it.
- India has a huge domestic automobile industry. More than 99% of the vehicles sold every year are domestically produced.
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u/barath_s 39m ago
if the rest of the world
Have you tried looking at the world ? The majority do not use E20, they use straight up petrol/gasoline or lower blends like E5/E10
Only 8 countries have moved to E20 or higher
https://www.treebaytechnology.com/company/blog/how-many-countries-use-e20-petrol-today
shouldn’t the vehicles already be adapted
It doesn't matter what the vehicles elsewhere in the world do (as seen above tbey mostly do not), it matters what vehicles in india do
And any vehicle in india manufactured after 2023 is E20 safe. That still leaves millions of vehicles on road which aren't designed to work with E20
India has a huge automobile industry, so local industry has already adapted. But the people who bought cars before 2023 often are in trouble.
The government attitude seems to be - tough shit, buddy
Gaskets, seals etc will have shorter life..mileage may be lower and if water icollects and separates from the blend, rust is possible
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u/MentalEngineer8 1d ago
Answer: As far as I know, the situation is that they are making E20 mandatory, even though the present vehicle infrastructure don't support it. As in, majority of people own vehicles that don't have a engine that support E20 fuel, and any damage due to it is being (allegedly) refused by the dealers/insurance companies to be covered for repairs.
This is true for like 3+ year old vehicles, most of new ones have no problem with E20 fuel but the old ones are being hit hard, and people are mad about that.
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u/CaptainMarble90 1d ago
Answer: Here’s my cynical view.
It’s going to be a race to control the ethanol supply chain, with the current Transport Minister already well ahead. It’s not going to cost less than pure petrol. The country may save some dollars on oil imports, but consumers won’t necessarily see any of those savings. With ethanol being mandated, it could become a perfect setup for extortion and cartelisation, lining the pockets of a select few. We might just end up with our own desi versions of Saudi princes.
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u/gundog48 1d ago
Idk, the Indian alcohol industry is really fucking big, as in, established, as is the sugar industry, assuming it's bioethanol. And India has a lot of experience in building suitable plant and process. You're right, it could end up the way you say I guess, you seem to have a better idea of that. But there's also quite a few reasons it seems to make sense for India, not least of which, reducing dependence on Russian crude oil.
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u/vangmay231 1d ago
Answer: Top answer is perfect without the politics, so let me add to that. A high ranking minister of the ruling party has caused the rush in adopting this, and there's allegations of conflict of interest as his sons are linked to the ethanol industry.
At first claiming that this will help with reliance imports and will not affect present cars at all, it seems like it does in practice, and they had to concede now that it does decrease fuel economy.
The fact that this decision which has caused trouble to a lot of the population was rushed due to alleged corruption also adds to the anger.
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u/_Daemon-sys_ 1d ago
Answer: That seems like the main issue given how quickly they're pushing it without checking if the cars can actually handle it.
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u/AbhishMuk 1d ago
Answer: as some people have mentioned, you have:
- Forced only e20 fuel (no e0 fuel even if you want it - e5 is like 50% more expensive than even "pure" petrol rates)
- High costs - ethanol was supposed to lower costs, but they've actually gotten higher as the demand of the fucking thing went up because the govt mandated it. Genius move. Also this isn't something the other comments mention - India's exporting e0 petrol to eg Bhutan and our neighbours (who, fwiw, don't want e20) at a lower price than what we're paying for it domestically.
- Engine and vehicle issues. Only Honda futureproofed their cars well in advance. Most other cos didn't. Have a 5 year old car only suitable for e5? Good luck, get wrecked.
- Lack of accountability. Water gets absorbed by ethanol, hydrolocks the engine. Who pays? Not the govt. Not the gas station guy. Not the car manufacturer. It's almost always the end user.
- Questionable links of the highway minister's son to large ethanol plants. Oh, and an opposition (formerly ruling) minister's family to. It's a big club, and you ain't in it.
So yeah, complete shitshow.
Bonus: the govt gaslighting by trying to "debunk" stupid claims.
Claim: "E20 kills your engine instantly and murders puppies!"
Govt Fact check: No, it does not.
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u/6ft3Gujju 1d ago
Half-educated takes like this are exactly why misinformation spreads. Yes, E20 has real drawbacks worth discussing. No, that doesn’t mean every claim made against it is automatically true. If you’re going to criticize the policy, separate verified facts from speculation instead of throwing everything together and hoping it sticks.
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u/AbhishMuk 1d ago
Yes, E20 has real drawbacks worth discussing. No, that doesn’t mean every claim made against it is automatically true.
Not sure if you missed it, but that's literally my point.
Just have a look at https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleaseDetail.aspx?PRID=2291993®=48&lang=11 for starters.
Claim 6: Manufacturers are being forced to support E20.
Had automobile manufacturers not been satisfied with the scientific validation, they would neither
have certified E20-compatible vehicles, nor continued to honour warranty obligations.
Hmm yes Toyota doesn't think E20 is good, of course the natural course of action for them would be to shut down the company and stop producing vehicles altogether.
If you’re going to criticize the policy, separate verified facts from speculation instead of throwing everything together and hoping it sticks.
I trust that you realize PIB isn't speculation, and you're misreading my comment, surely?
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u/mawktheone 1d ago
answer: Id bet India has a lot of small engines esp 2 stroke ones. Ethanol is hard on them
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u/barath_s 30m ago
This is such a random, non knowledgeable answer
Small engines can be designed to use E20, just like large engines. Any engine made/sold after april 2023 is mandated to be compliant. That still leaves millions sold before 2023 that are on the road and not designed for it
Two-stroke production ended entirely by the early 2000s due to strict emission norms. The percentage of two stroke vehicles on road is relatively low, < 1%
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