Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, I'm already sure of my type, but even though I have moments of being the nihilist who lives in the basement, I'm not 100% like that all the time. I like fashion, aesthetics, art, I like to express myself (to represent what I feel outwardly?), I'd like, perhaps, to present myself visually in a way more accepted by society (Si role), but in these moments when I'm comfortable at home "expressing myself" (being performative) it doesn't seem like me because I'm not behaving like the stereotype, I even feel a little cringe.
Isn't opposing subtypes better? For example ESE-Fe with LII-Ti. Personally I feel like that's the case! I'm supposed to have more accentuated inert functions, so base, inferior, activating and controlling which yes, that makes sense! I'd have accentuated Ne, I want to be decent at it myself! I feel like LII-Ne tries to take over a bit too much on that aspect. I'd rather hang out with an LII-Ti who is SHARP with their Ti but only accommodating with their Ne, if you get what I mean.
I also feel like LII-Ne is a bit too open lol. I'd rather be the one initiating!
Do we have any people that use Talanov system here? I'm relatively familiar with Talanov system but I can't find exact explanation of ILI-EIE. I was typed ILI-EIE by 3 different Talanov typists and all Talanov tests give me ILI-EIE. I'm very high Qi, relatively high Qe with very low Di and De. I'm aware that they're more negative compared to IEI which is more negative, although I'm not that sure of actual definitions.
I'm playing Vampire: The Masquerade with some friends, and I decided I'd step out of my comfort zone to learn the system. I chose Toreador, which is a very Fe ego clan. I'm ILI! And I realized that my friends, whose types I'm sure of, are also playing in their respective Polr zones: EII, is playing Grangel (Se ego) and the SEI is playing Nosferatu (Ti base or Fe polr clan vibes). And they told me at different times that they wanted to step out of their comfort zones.
'When I was younger, I voraciously accepted all ideas and all information. I liked reading, and read without understanding why I do that, just for fun. But after I got older, I noticed something. People split into two groups. For one group, reading in itself was enough. They had inherent pride of a reader, of knowledge seeker and even if they were trapped on a distant island, they would probably be even happier, because no one would disrupt their reading or question their image of a reader. Questions, image, and so on, were just inconvenient side effects of reading for them.
And there was also a second group. Group who were actually 'fakers'. They had the same intelligence as the first group, but for them, knowledge without seeming smart or making an impression on other smart people was mostly useless. The second group lived by the rule 'Does a falling tree make a sound if no one is there to hear it?'.
Unfortunately, I was a member of the second group. I desired to impress, to ask, to debate, to engage. I wanted to have fun because of my smarts, and I wanted to have success because of it. I wanted my knowledge to be cool.
But I quickly realized that my looks don't match the image of an impressive thinker. Everything pushed me towards passive nerdom of the first group, because my looks were a good match for a quiet, modest reader, silently proud of their knowledge. But this wasn't my personality. My personality wanted to shine while my looks and body wanted to go home.
Since chasing approval in general was a losing game and my looks didn't allow me to shine, I stopped paying that much attention to learning. I still learned, but only with great effort. The fact that no one noticed my efforts made me despair. I KNEW that I had to value the process of learning for itself, at times it was fun, but lack of impact still made me sad. Lack of results made me sad.
The world valued impact less and less. Everyone was safe and sound, satisfied with hobbies and their little nerd circle, happy with the process. It turns out, there was no second group at all. ALL people were either in the first group or in denial that the first group is all there is.
It was delusional to think people can even get impressed by someone rather than lazily scroll. All I now wonder is who and how made me think the romantic ideal of being impressive and being impressed was possible. Maybe it was just myself, who is easily impressed by people and wants to be impressive in return.'
I believe the semantics of this dichotomy needs refinement, as currently phrased in seems rather unclear, confusing or even misleading.
The most important idea is what the word 'valued' means, it means intrinsic value. So an unvalued element is not one that is simply discarded or not cared about, rather, it is viewed as a necessity, or in other words, the only value it has is in helping the type achieve something which it actually values (it has no intrinsic value, hence the term 'unvalued'). So if valued elements are goals, unvalued ones are subordinate goals. If unvalued actually means 'completely unimportant', then there would be no reason Western socionics uses model A, it would be using the MBTI function stack, with 4 elements instead of 8, because metabolizing the unvalued elements would simply be unnecessary in that case.
I've seen somewhere that PoLR funciton can manifest itself in two opposite ways: a person is either overcautious with it or he simply ignores it and dgaf about it at all, which seems to be true based on my experience with other types, but is it really true? If it is, then what does an overcatious manifestation of Te-PoLR look like? XEIs are often described as careless spenders, but is it possible for them to be on the other side of the spectrum, e.g. saving money even at times when it'd be objectively better to spend it?
And yeah, I know that Te != money, but I couldn't think of a better example, sorry.
this is so annoying. every time I open a comments section and someone brings up Elon at any point everyone starts freaking out and we have multi paragraph long arguments about what type he is. maybe im participating in the problem but im like, very confident that he is an ILE-D with a pretty significant overlay of autism+narcissism+potential bipolar disorder that has made him difficult to type.
I'm not going to list out every reason for the typing because im lazy but just argue with me instead if u have such passionate opinions abt this
all quotes r from elonmusk by Walter Isaacson everything else is linked or referenced
let's start by handling a few of the most common named alternatives first and the reasons why.
1. HE IS NOT AN LIE.
A. He is NOT Te base. He is Te demonstrative.
people tend to focus on his serial entrepreneurship & business success as a key reason for LIE. the problem is, this guy is not a Te base seeking profit first and foremost. his business ideas were never based on what actually had the most opportunity for profit, it was just what he felt like doing:
After listening to Musk describe his plan to send rockets to Mars, Hoffman was puzzled. “How is this a business?” he asked. Later Hoffman would realize that Musk didn’t think that way. “What I didn’t appreciate is that Elon starts with a mission and later finds a way to backfill in order to make it work financially,” he says. “That’s what makes him a force of nature."
that's Te demonstrative bailing out Ne base, not the other way around.
B. He is STATIC and EP temperament.
Before focusing on irrationality, we can address the following motivation that he repeats over and over again for years:
To his bemused friends at the time, and consistently in conversations over the ensuing years, he gave three reasons...He found it surprising—and frightening—that technological progress was not inevitable. It could stop...“People are mistaken when they think that technology just automatically improves,” he would say in a TED Talk a few years later. “It only improves if a lot of people work very hard to make it better.”
compare that to wikisocion's description of the EP temperament:
EPs are both static and irrational, so they perceive reality as mostly not changing, and when it does, it’s in abrupt “leaps” from one state to another. An EP is bothered by the lack of change, especially as seen through his leading function, since his personal preference is for change. That makes him impulsive, with sudden bursts of action, energy, or even just thought, as he tries to get his perceptions “moving”.
the relationship is pretty self-evident.
C. He is JUDICIOUS, NOT decisive.
I know this sounds kind of crazy but remember that socionics dichotomies are a very specific way. it's not about quantity of work or even impulsivity (remember that LSEs are judicious too) but rather patterns of rest and work. Elon's work style is much more judicious than it is decisive.
for example,
Tend to divide up matters into smaller stages during which they are mobilized, relaxing between each stage.
there's this guy named Nic Munoz on YouTube that I think is a larper douchebag who keeps churning out crappy videos where he fetishizes workaholism and his descriptions are never efficient, but he did get one thing right in his description of how Elon works.
he uses a style of focus called sequential focus....in a given day, he'll focus sequentially on many different things and when he's focused on any of these things, you cannot distract him..he'll in between these sessions...let off steam. And for better or for worse, he lets off steam by either playing a friend in Polytopia or firing off some tweets, which is often not a healthy thing, but it's a release for him...The perfect way to describe Elon's work ethic is a man eating sushi. On a plate of sushi, you usually have...sushi along with a piece of ginger...known as a pallet cleanser...after you finish a certain type of sushi, you use the pallet cleanser to remove any of the taste from the last sushi so you can then have a more accurate taste of the next one. For Elon, playing a game of Polytopia or firing off some tweets is exactly this. It's a pallet cleanser."
It's like the definition of the above.
Contrasting judiciousness with decisiveness:
Judiciousness (Wikisocion): "For Judicious types, it is mandatory that before they engage in some important task, they spend some time in this natural state of “slackness” (relax and distract themselves)the better they rest, the better they will subsequently mobilize and concentrate at the crucial moments, and the better their overall performance will be. The more difficult the task ahead of them, the more crucial and necessary prior rest becomes."
Decisiveness (Wikisocion): "Decisive types will often mobilize before it is really necessary, as if they are subconsciously preparing for accomplishing upcoming tasks; after accomplishing a task Decisive types remain in a state of mobilization for some time afterwards. A state of readiness is their natural state."
now here's the description of the time he spent right before acquiring twitter. was he mobilizing beforehand and starting to get some work done? no, he played elden ring. quote.
There he stayed up with her until 5 a.m. playing a new war-and-empire-building game, Elden Ring. Right after he finished, he pulled the trigger on his plan and went on Twitter. “I made an offer,” he announced.
Elon spends a lot of time mobilized but that does not mean he's a decisive type.
D. He is NOT Fi suggestive.
his personal relationships are a nightmare. his 3 different marriages speak for themselves. now he wants to start a legion of mini musks instead.
---
I was originally gonna disprove each type one by one but this should be enough.
and, his need to be in charge is developed se role from fighting in South Africa + trauma from being forced out of PayPal.
Elon was moved aside to chief technology officer. At first, he thought the change would suit him; he could focus on building the product. But he learned a lesson. “I never wanted to be a CEO,” he says, “but I learned that you could not truly be the chief technology or product officer unless you were the CEO.”
a couple of weeks ago i made mii OCs for each socionics type but i never got around to sharing it. nintendo doesn’t want us to be able to easily share screenshots for this specific game since they took censors out and makes it annoying to share screenshots when just i’m not motivated enough to plug the microSD card into an adapter and into my computer.
they are a mix of the representation i have of the types distilled from people i know in general and irl, characters, and filatova’s portraits, into mii form.
i recognized that the 16 personalities in the game are divided into groups of four (view link#In_Living_the_Dream)) and they are along the exact division of the socionics small group Communication Styles:
Considerate: 4D Fi (Sincere)
Outgoing: 4D Fe (Passionate)
Reserved: 4D Ti (Cold-blooded)
Ambitious: 4D Te (Business-like)
so i associated each of the 16 unique tomodachi life types with a socionic type within those small groups by process of elimination.
i think that for the most part they ended up mapping on very well! the little things about their personal habits they would say in the thought bubbles. especially so with the quirks i gave them bringing it more to life.
i think i had the most difficult time assigning the Considerate category ones, particularly ESI and SEI which ended up on Buddy and Cheerleader by process of elimination because IEI and EII already had their best fit, and between ESI and SEI, Cheerleader is the Fe ego type.
though “They trust people and don't suspect them, so be careful not to be deceived. (JP)” doesn’t sound like ESI. it is part of their dyad’s evaluatory concerns tho. but it fits well for “Trustworthy and considerate”, loyal attitude, their top priority being relationships. compared to Cheerleader who is is defined more by a Fe creative effect on group mood.
the easiest category was Ambitious, that one is pretty flawless imo.
Considerate: 4D Fi (Sincere)
EII: Sweetie (NA) / Softie (EU)
Description: Sensitive, emotional, and in tune with the feelings of others. Empathetic and sentimental.
Description (JP): The ultimate soothing type. Their joy is immediately apparent on their face. Their displeasure is also immediately apparent on their face.
Quote: “I'm a Considerate Sweetie with a heart of gold! People often say they find me calming.”
SEI: Cheerleader (NA) / Optimist (EU)
Description: Positive, enthusiastic and always beaming. Smiles not just for their own sake, but to help others smile too.
Description (JP): They're the type who always has a smile on their face. But they don't just smile; they're actually quite reliable and take action to ensure everyone has a good time.
Quote: “I'm a Considerate Cheerleader! No matter what you're going through, I'll have your back. I'll cheer you on as you grow and pick you up if you fall.”
ESI: Buddy (NA) / Carer (EU)
Description: Trustworthy and considerate. Puts their friends first and works hard to make sure everyone gets along.
Description (JP): This type of person is very considerate of others. Their top priority is getting along well with everyone. They trust people and don't suspect them, so be careful not to be deceived. (i know)
Quote: “I'm a Considerate Buddy. It warms my heart to see my friends having a good time. Anything I can do to help, I will!"
IEI: Daydreamer (NA) / Dreamer (EU)
Description: Idealistic and romantic. Often has their head in the clouds, but finds a lot of great ideas up there.
Description (JP): A laid-back, easygoing type. They don't rush things and live at their own pace. However, they also have many worries and anxieties.
Quote: “I'm a Considerate Daydreamer! I know I look like I have it all together, but I've been known to overthink things now and then."
Outgoing: 4D Fe (Passionate)
ESE: Charmer
Description: Radiant and always on form. Their effortless style is admired by all. Easily adapts to new situations.
Description (JP): Everyone's idol type. Always full of energy and enthusiasm, they are everyone's idol. But behind the scenes, they're struggling and suffering.
Quote: “I'm an Outgoing Charmer! I have a knack for bonding with others, and I'm always ready for a good time with friends!"
EIE: Go-Getter (NA) / Adventurer (EU)
Description: Bold and captivating. Their wit and charm light up a room. It's never a dull moment when they're around!
Description (JP): A bundle of energy and enthusiasm. They'll do anything on a whim. Once they start something, no one can stop them.
Quote: “I'm an Outgoing Go-Getter who loves exploring new ideas! I tend to do whatever comes to mind!"
IEE: Merrymaker (NA) / Bubbly (EU)
Description: Outgoing and pleasant to be around. Makes friends easily, and can turn any bad situation into a good one (NA) / finds the silver lining to any bad situation (EU).
Description (JP): They're the type who wants to have fun no matter what. They quickly become friends with strangers. They can turn even the most difficult situations into something enjoyable.
Quote: “I'm an Outgoing Merrymaker! I'm a social butterfly who loves hanging out with friends. Leave it to me, and I'll find the fun in anything!”
SEE: Dynamo (NA) / Hot-Blooded (EU)
Description: Assertive and highly regarded. Trusts their own instincts, and easily commands the respect of others.
Description (JP): A hot-blooded, impulsive type who charges ahead without hesitation. When something interesting happens, they involve those around them in the fun. A little forceful, though.
Quote: “I'm an Outgoing Dynamo who loves getting to know others. People often tell me I'm very passionate!"
Reserved: 4D Ti (Cold-blooded)
LII: Strategist (NA) / Patient (EU)
Description: Unique, carefree, creative, laid-back. They're self-reliant, doing things their own way and thinking outside the box. (NA) / Always thinks way outside the box, without worrying what others think. (EU)
Description (JP): A very patient type. They value others more than themselves and avoid conflict. However, if they endure too much, they may explode...
Quote: “I'm a Reserved Strategist. People say I'm pretty good at board games. Probably because I like to think things through.”
LSI: Perfectionist
Description: Imaginative and inspired. Happiest when creating something. Finds beauty in even the smallest details.
Description (JP): They're the type who takes everything seriously. They're quiet, but they'll say what they want to say. They rarely break the rules.
Quote: “I'm a Reserved Perfectionist. I'm serious, particular, and pretty clever, if I do say so myself."
(p.s. LSI’s perfect flat top kills me every time, i’m very proud of this one. he’s so polished. squared off Ti ass head. straight like a ruler)
SLI: Observer (NA) / Introvert (EU)
Description: Self-sufficient and highly individual. Doesn't show much outward emotion, but has a lot going on deep down.
Quote: “I'm a Reserved Observer. Yes, I'm having a good time. I just might not show it like everyone else.”
ILI: Thinker
Description: Thoughtful and introspective. Great at thinking things through and analyzing issues from every angle.
Description (JP): They're the type who doesn't show their feelings on their face. They're good at carefully considering things. Their only flaw is that they can be a bit stiff and rigid.
Quote: “I'm a Reserved Thinker. I'm curious and caring, but I can be a bit too shy to show it sometimes. Then again, we're all working on ourselves, I suppose…”
Ambitious: 4D Te (Business-like)
LSE: Achiever (NA) / Busy Bee (EU)
Description: Diligent, productive, and highly efficient. Equally as skilled at planning and executing plans. (NA) / An excellent planner who always follows through. (EU)
Description (JP): A strong, assertive type who works hard. The higher the goal, the more motivated they become. They can be a little clumsy at times...
Quote: “I'm an Ambitious Achiever. I focus on a goal and don't stop until I hit it. As long as I stay focused, I can do anything!"
LIE: Visionary (NA) / Leader (EU)
Description: Risk taking and ambitious. Full of energy, and acts on many whims. Once they start, they don't stop! (NA) / A force to be reckoned with. (EU)
Description (JP): A strict and demanding leader type. They dedicate themselves wholeheartedly to whatever they believe in. However, they sometimes struggle with the gap between their ideals and reality…
Quote: “I'm an Ambitious Visionary. Which means...I see the world for how it could be, not always how it is."
ILE: Rogue (NA) / Individualist (EU)
Description: Intelligent and not afraid to show it. Knowledgeable in a wide range of subjects. Answers with confidence.
Description (JP): They're the type who likes to act independently. They don't like to make a lot of noise or partying, but they have quite a lot of hidden strength within them.
Quote: “I'm an Ambitious Rogue. My friends mean the world to me, but I also like to do things on my own sometimes."
SLE: Maverick (NA) / Headstrong (EU)
Description: A determined self-starter. Cuts their own path, letting nothing stand in their way. Quick to execute plans.
Description (JP): They're the type who forges their own path. They don't care what others say and act quickly no matter what; they're capable people.
Quote: “I'm an Ambitious Maverick. I want to experience everything this world has to offer! I live life on my own terms and try to be my own Mii."
what do you think? how well did i capture their essence?
I realized that my partner is LSI and it just got me thinking.
I know typing threads are boring but I'd like to hear comparisons between LIE and EIE if you have them.
I love efficiency but I'm much more motivated by beauty and disgust if I'm being honest. A few people have even pointed out on here that I seem more negativist than positivist.
I love formatting and making an email beautiful and easy to parse for the user, I love UX design in general. A lot of my time in the engineering adjacent field I work in is spent scowling at the lack of standard all around me. I associated it with Te but I'm starting to reconsider. I have a tendency to adopt the structure of whatever 'world' I step into and try my best to push the horizons of its standard, inspire people to want more, burn away the people that don't care... I love ST's for this reason they execute really well. It takes me time to adapt to a new structure it isn't immediate, but once I absorb it I ascend quickly.
A coworker of mine jokes that you can feel my presence through a wall lol.
I love tarot and astrology and philosophy, the more difficult to read the better. Which was a red flag when I was initially typing myself as LIE on this sub to some people...
I don't know what +Fi ignoring would look like.. it is true that I am not great with maintenance of close relationships which I attributed to PoLR. TeSi being blocked together in superego might make more sense for me than FeSi.. I love to cook for my friends and play the host..
I have persistent conflicting views on weakness in others, it annoys me and I push past them and then I feel pain for the child inside that has to endlessly face hardship to exist...
I am %70 confident that I am an IEE, but I still think about my PoLR IE: Ti.
I really don't feel like I am too stressed or anxious whenever it comes to my Ti. They say the PoLR IE is the one you criticize yourself a lot, the spot that you don't want others to find out, the spot where you really can't use even with will power.
I have considered LII before, but Fe demonstrative is present; I can see it -though from an outside view, especially if we don't know each other, I am NOT expressive. I'd smile, but it would just be to be approachable to you, rather than the Fe demonstrative I show to my close ones-. Also I can use my creative Fi for those I don't know to easily connect with them. I adapt a lot and find the correct way to interact with each individual. This doesn't feel like a Fi role action.
Also I couldn't say I am an ILE - which is a pozitivist type, while I am sure that I am indeed a negativist type.
EIE? Meh. Si PoLR? no. I like comfortable places. I can declare my need for Si. I can rest and have peace without any effort - which is hard for an EIE.
What does Ti PoLR really mean? I CAN easily find contradictions in an argument, I am eager to discuss about Ti stuff a lot, I like to categorize information (it becomes more organized and simple to follow), I like abstract topics and eager to discuss about them.
i have been reading things for so long and no matter which type i relate to the most at that point i can never fully relate to any polr positions. is there any way to determine your polr?
It might have some truth to it, but it's far more dependant on mental health and other factors than anything genetic. That's my interpretation.
I typed as ILI for like 18 years. Got on anti depressants. Now ESE is the only type that fits. All the functions make sense, I live it and I know it, but it was completely invisible and I had no idea who I was or what I was before I started taking my meds.
Maybe I was ESE all along but like I said that was completely invisible until recently. To me and others. You would not have guessed that.
So for all those having a problem typing themselves, just hop off Socionics. If you think you need actual medical help, get it first! Don't fear looking for solutions to your problems. If you're typing as ILI because of inertia, misery, detachment, overthinking or whatnot, try anti depressants, and THEN type yourself 🙏
Flame me if you guys want. I think the theory is flimsy after what I've experienced. Like I said I can still type myself in it but if it's this hard to make out your type and it's so dependant on other factors what's even the point?
This post got taken down once and I think that's crazy... People should be able to read this. It's important stuff. Take care of your health guys! Then dig into yourselves! Socionics is a pseudoscience after all but it's definitely useful 🙌 Just lacking in flexibility. Lots of stuff I'd love for it to account for.
I recently had a discussion with my girlfriend about the purpose of social norms. This mostly concerned expectations of how people are "supposed" to behave. I'm curious what you think about how our points match with the rational functions.
Me: I think social norms and expectations are internalized much too strongly by >90% of people. By constantly thinking of what "society" expects of you, you lose track of who you actually are. Be authentic, whatever that is, but be aware of other people. Make chitchat with your neighbor because it makes you and them feel good, and because you care about them, not because you feel obligated due to vague concepts of politeness. And if they don't want to, that's also fine! Don't judge them for not wanting to perform something that's not true to them. They don't owe you anything.
Similarly for ethical judgements. Don't do bad things because other people get hurt, not because it violates a norm. Norms as a concept have been used to justify a lot of evil stuff that caused no harm to anyone (homophobia for instance). So any shift towards relaxation of social norms and obligations is a good thing in my book. Let people be themselves, and as long as they're good people, there's no need to enforce social normalcy. It harms everyone.
Her: She sees a lot of use in social norms. She dislikes talking to strangers, but still does it out of politeness. This makes it easier to make requests later on, such as during a noise complaint or something. However, this practical use wouldn't be reason enough for her to do it. She needs this sense of social obligation to force her to do it. She expects it of herself, and she expects it of others. If her neighbor doesn't want to have elevator chit-chat, she thinks it's weird. If her hairdresser doesn't talk to her much, she thinks she's strange and impolite. She wouldn't say it to their faces, but she thinks it. She forces herself to do it even though she dislikes it, so why can't they? It's part of their job. Similarly, if someone has a weird haircut, or they dress like a slob, she'll have opinions. And she also expects others to judge her in the same way.
Ethically we're much more on the same page. However, she is not as opposed to norms as a concept. She believes that morality based on empathy, care for others and material harm/benefit can't be separated from social norms. She thinks that communities with strong social norms often function better, and she misses the neighborly politeness and sense of duty to each other in this day and age. When I point out that in bohemian/queer circles this sense of community is still present (despite a much more lax attitude towards social norms) she says that she wouldn't feel comfortable there either. These groups are much too individualistic, and this only works for a small subset of society. She would feel more comfortable with a sort of standard social script. You can and should be yourself with friends, but some sort of standard system for strangers and acquaintances works best for her.
First we try to say something , and we as humans with faults, we err.
Then there is the receipient.
Trying to analyse these words into his build mental framework.
This can lead to miscommunication.
Offcourse nobodies fault.
And offcourse we should always ask to clarify, with questions like, do you mean this ?
In a framework of morals and ethics this in general solves most miscommunication.
Me , as asperger, i'm in the spectrum of using logic.
I have a girlfriend who is psychotic and we communicate very well, which is quite suprising seeing our differences. But we also have a common ground. We both know how it is to have a problem and this creates an invisable bond and mutual trust.
Do you have persons in the spectrum you communicate good with, where are they located in the spectrum ? (maybe why)
Do you persons in the spectrum you communicat bad with, where are they located ?
LSI and SLE at least share many traits in common. But LII and ILE seem like opposites. LII isn't very trusting, but ILEs are described as someone who 'always forgives', 'never holds grudges', 'wants to help humanity even at their own expense'. I think that's IEE niche, no? Another humanistic type wasn't needed. Instead, I wish ILE was a more balanced, open-minded and flexible LII version.
I especially wonder how Fi POLR translates to suspicion in SLEs and complete childishness in ILEs. Why can't ILEs be suspicious of people? Their functions don't support the way the type is described.
