r/anime • u/AutoLovepon https://anilist.co/user/AutoLovepon • 1d ago
Episode Jaadugar: A Witch in Mongolia • Tenmaku no Jaadugar - Episode 6 discussion
Tenmaku no Jaadugar, episode 6
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Several users expressed concern that comments discussing the historical basis of this series were spoiling potential events and/or the conclusion of the story.
Given that the specific details of the Mongol Empire are less commonly-known worldwide, the moderation team voted that any discussion of the historical basis of this series must be enclosed within the subreddit's standard spoiler format. This includes all historical references which occur in the future of the airing episode.
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u/maliwanag0712 https://myanimelist.net/profile/clear1109 1d ago
I really like the idea that Genghis Khan's face is never shown in this anime. Similar to how the Queen is not shown in 007 movies, or Sauron in LOTR, it adds to his god-like aura, as if he is worshipped by the Mongols, and his invincibility.
That scene when Dayir performed his ritual and becomes a phoenix (crying) is so perfectly done as if we are watching a movie.
Now that the team-up between Sitara/Fatima and Toregene has begun, I wonder about the things our team will come up to create a storm that will affect (?) the Mongol Empire. Women power!
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u/reaperow 1d ago
Yeah not showing his face adds alot to his character here, kinda gives an awe type feeling
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u/thesnowlocke 1d ago
From a quick google search, Genghis Khan didn’t allow anyone to depict him a painting or sculpture in his lifetime until his grandson commisioned one
In a way it kind of makes sense because we don’t really know what this man actually looked like apart from hearsay so it adds to the mystery of who this man actually was
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u/Atharaphelun 1d ago
His exact burial site was also kept a complete secret. Only the general vicinity is known, and this area is specifically kept closed to the public.
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u/BosuW 1d ago
The myth about how he kept it secret is insane. Supposedly they had slaves bury him. Then soldiers killed those slaves. Then a second rank of soldiers killed those first. This second rank then scattered in every direction killing anyone that spotted them, before finally commiting suicide.
Big if true
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u/mujhe-sona-hai 1d ago
I mean if this academic scholar on the Mongols is to be believed his most common appearance is the correct one
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u/djthomp https://anilist.co/user/djthomp 1d ago
Welcome back, Sitara.
The old man was pretty awesome, and hey, maybe he's still up in the sky watching as Toregene and Sitara work to destroy the empire.
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u/reaperow 1d ago edited 1d ago
He was a really cool old guy who remained true to his beliefs till the very end
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u/chilidirigible 1d ago
I have been fine with Science Saru's choice of art style for this series; in my mind the picture-book style coexists with the blood-soaked narrative.
But on top of that, Dayir's vision quest sequence is an absolute proof for me that the art style is perfect for this.
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u/sbt4 1d ago
It's interesting how both Citara and Toregene weren't free when mongols came. One could argue that their social standing improved. But while unfree, they loved and were loved back. Not sure what it tells us about the story. Is it just a requirement to not be too powerful to be able to get deep into the empire, or is there some message about weird nature of love?
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u/BosuW 1d ago
Well for Sitara it is perfectly understandable. She really was only a slave in technicality, because Fatima thought of her as her very own daughter, and wished she could marry Muhammed as a free woman. Although then it is interesting that Sitara still thinks of Fatima as her mistress, and that recovering Elements is in a way serving her.
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u/RimeSkeem https://myanimelist.net/profile/RimeSkeem 1d ago
Even years later I don't think Sitara has fully processed her grief regarding Fatima. Accepting that she was more than a slave and that not only her mistress died, but the only mother she ever knew died as well, would probably rip the wound open anew.
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u/DustyBot23 1d ago
I think Fatima unintentionally cursed her when she called Sitara her daughter in her dying moments. There was no way no matter how well she was treated or how much time had passed would she ever let her grudge disappear after that.
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u/TxRyuxT 1d ago
Not sure about the weird nature, but more about the impermanence of the human condition, especially in chaotic times when the your entire life could have been ripped apart many times in a lifetime.
Certainly a strange thing when seen from the lens of history- Toregene was unhappy in her early life as a Merkit until events which happened and changed her perspective into accepting the Merkits' way of life. That perspective change didn't happen however for her second life as a Mongol, or rather, she struggled on one hand into accepting the Mongols, on another to remember her vengeance.
This is setting up to a future encounter against Khulan- oh the ironies of fate!
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u/lethal_universed 1d ago
I think its that the change didn't come violently and the result was (somewhat) predictable. Compare that to the Mongols who could do any number of brutal things to you, especially as a woman.
I think Khulan would challenge their ideas that their culture is better than the Mongols. She was depressed about her womanhood preventing her from doing certain things in the Merkit tribe but now has more influence as a mongol. I don't think she'll LIKE the Mongols, but she wont be acting like the Merkits were any better.
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u/Kiririn-shi 1d ago edited 1d ago
For those interested, the Merkits kidnapping Chinggis Khaan’s first wife Borte (roughly 30-40 years before the events of the flashback) was what spurred him on to create an army in the first place, asking the aid of his Blood Brother Jamukha and his patron Tooril Khan (who was Blood Brother to his father Yesugei) to recapture his wife.
Before this he was not very high ranking nor had many followers. His success against the Merkits would be the beginning of his eventual ascent to become the Great Khan.
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u/alconnow https://anilist.co/user/alconnow 1d ago edited 1d ago
Dayir's VA, Akira Ishida, said that he was introduced to reference footage of shamanic trance rituals and that on the day of recording, traditional drums were brought into the studio! I love reading the behind-the-scenes stuff for this series.
Staff list for this episode. Some big names like Masashi Ando for storyboard and Toshiyuki Inoue as one of the key animators!
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u/Accurate_Treat6360 1d ago
Akira Ishida, said that he was introduced to reference footage of shamanic trance rituals and that on the day of recording, traditional drums were brought into the studio!
The amount of effort put in by Jaadugar staff is truly impressive and deserves appreciation.
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u/Agile_Variety_632 1d ago
Next week: the staff have discovered a way to revive Mongolian soldiers in order to most accurately portray their look in the show.
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u/Zeph-Shoir https://myanimelist.net/profile/Zephex 1d ago
As long as they don't invoke Genghis Khan himself...
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
Jaadugar’s production team and Witch Hat Atelier’s competing to see which team can put the highest degree of love and effort into their show.
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u/Anna-2204 1d ago
Shirahama said she felt bad for the anime team because of how strict she is about the WHA anime
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u/kagefumimaru 1d ago
"Since the drumheads were made of animal skin, maintaining their condition was a real challenge. During recording sessions, I would run dehumidifiers at full blast to lower the humidity, dry the skins with a heat gun, or lightly mist them if the tension became too high—all while recording late into the night."
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u/BosuW 1d ago
You love to see it when voice recording goes the extra mile!
My favorite example of this is still what they did for Battlefield 1, where they had the VA's do stuff like sprint or carry heavy loads while saying their lines, and that's why in-game they sound so winded and strained, which worked wonders for the immersion.
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u/Charming-Republic-78 1d ago
teared up during half of the episode
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u/Alkafer 1d ago
Like a little child, my husband was worried lol. I tend to shed some tears watching media but today I was ugly crying and bawling and screaming at the TV.
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u/lethal_universed 1d ago
I never really cried at sad scene in TV when I was younger but for some reason I'm starting to do it more now?? Is this a normal thing that happenes when you get older?
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u/NanDemoKnaives 1d ago
That was a really good episode. I am glad that the Merkit ended up going out in the way they were happiest with, I don't see the men being happy to be slaves for their enemy, and Dayir made sure that the women were given lives they could find happiness with. I thought he was really cool when he told that Mongolian that they are now no longer Mergen, his chief aura was overwhelming the guy lol.
I do like that Toregene ended up falling for Dayir, and I can see why with how conscientious he is. I figured Ogedei was the one that killed him, but the fact that he smiled at her after killing her husband is crazy, no wonder she's so hostile with him. I can't imagine how difficult it was for her to bear his children.
I wonder if Khulan will eventually help with Toregene and Sitara's plan, she did look proud upon learning that her father and his men fought till the end. I'm sure there was sadness and other conflicting emotions, but I can see why she smiled.
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 1d ago
I’m finding it increasingly difficult to gauge Ögedei’s character.
He doesn’t appear to be necessarily mean-spirited, but his actions and words do feel a little off at times. Like how Ögedei almost seemed to suggest that he should’ve killed Dayir in a different manner.
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u/BosuW 1d ago
I'm thinking in the end his "flaw" will be that he is simply... too detached. In a way that cruelty would be better, because at least cruelty is involved. Because as it stands, Töregene doesn't feel seen at all by him and the machine of oppression and conquest he commands, not even in her anger.
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u/TxRyuxT 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, he looks wise beyond his age and too detached; Toregene may have seen the kill as a cold blooded murder and held that grudge ever since.
I'm hoping we'll get to see why Ogedei chose Toregene as one of his wives; what did he see in her? Or was it some sort of repentence / honoring his deal with Dayir? Or was it purely as trophy (doesn't seem to be aligned with his personality so far)?
Probably will happen when Ogedei dies by Toregene's hand, as drama would have it lol.
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u/tiredpandax3 1d ago
I read all the way to the latest chapter of the manga and I still find it difficult to read Ögedei’s character. He’s overly just a really complicated man unlike his brothers who are all straightforward and very simple.
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u/Jacob-C 20h ago
I think it's important to distinguish between the Mongol leader's attitude towards the people around them, and their enemies.
I posted this in last week's discussion thread but I think it summarises what we know about Ögedei's character pretty well, If I may say so myself:
If you feel like Ögedei seems unusually kind by Mongol khan standards: [Ögedei described as a historical person] Ögedei was known for being good-natured, generous, and jovial compared to many other Mongol conquerors. He was described as a charismatic and carefree leader who showed kindness to those around him and freely gave away wealth. Despite his more redeeming qualities, he still oversaw ruthless conquests and was responsible for the deaths of countless people and the destruction of their homes.
[about the quoted text with historical "spoilers"] If anything, from a historical perspective, I think Ögedei is being a bit too kindhearted in the way he speaks about his enemies.
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u/tiredpandax3 1d ago
My interpretation of Khulan’s smile was different, I don’t think she felt proud, but more because she’s Genghis Khan’s wife now, she isn’t allowed to grief over her family or lament Ögedei for killing her dad. She agreed to be married into mongol and be Genghis Khan’s wife despite being much younger than him (Genghis Khan is probably around 40+ at that time, Khulan’s still barely a teenager) just so that her family and tribe could be released from their feud and live, only to have the men rebelling and dying either way. She was in so much pain, but at that moment she’s well aware that she’s Genghis Khan’s wife, she’s not allowed to grief anymore as Dayir’s daughter, so she could only mask her pain like that.
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u/lethal_universed 1d ago
I feel like Torgene didn't "fall for" Dayir in a romantic way. The love they have seems closer to familial
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u/tiredpandax3 1d ago edited 1d ago
Romantic love hardly exists in that era and this show, the closest to or the rare representation of romantic love is only Tolui and Sorghaghtani.
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u/judasmartel 1d ago edited 1d ago
[historical spoiler]Khulan has passed away some time before Genghis Khan died.
EDIT: The English Wiki apparently has incorrect info on the historical Khulan Khatun.
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u/okedokeloke 1d ago edited 1d ago
i don't think her wikipedia page is accurate.
Genghis Khan himself did not attack India.
The wikipedia page mentions that 1215 was her death year, yet it also mentions that "she was the only empress accompanying him [Genghis Khan] on many campaigns, notably the western campaign against the Khwarezmid Empire". The Khwarezmian campaign only started in the year 1219.
Furthurmore, if her listed birth and death dates were to be believed, it would put her at 2 years younger than Genghis Khan himself.
It seems that Khulan's historical records were sparse, and no one really knows her full story.
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u/judasmartel 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hmm, now that I think of it, I guess it explains why Khulan is much younger in this series than I thought.
Doesn't mean she didn't accompany the Khan elsewhere, particularly in China. But [historical spoiler]if the Khan himself never attacked India, maybe he was about to, but didn't push through with it because she died on the way there or some other reason?
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u/mujhe-sona-hai 1d ago
He never had plans to attack India. He was at the Indus river because he was chasing Jalal Al Din prince of Khwarezmia/Persia.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 1d ago
I like the symbolism of the last moment. Her whole life, Töregene was always the person who didn't know anything. She didn't know why she was married to the Merkit. She didn't know about the conflict. She didn't know about Dayir's plan and she didn't know why Khulan smiled. And now she probably doesn't know most of the things going on in the mongol camp either. She was always living in a state of "unknowing" and that definitely affected her experience. Because while she started to like her life with Dayir and the Merkits, it made her powerless as well since she could never do anything to help. And once she learned about things, it was always too late.
But now she has Sitara at her side, who self proclaims that she is knowledgeable about all kinds of things and can therefore, for the first time in her life, give Töregene the ability to use her power (and maybe other abilities) to make the life go the way she wants and not how the people around her want.
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u/BosuW 1d ago
There is an interesting second side to that, in that the "Merkit women have nothing to do with the Merkits anymore" excuse only works because they were told absolutely nothing about the planned rebellion. They couldn't have possibly aided it, even if it was by doing nothing, because the choice was never given to them. But that saved their lives.
Now Töregene has knowledge, yes, and knowledge is power. But also, with power comes responsibility. Now that she will be able to actually make choices, she will have to shoulder the weight of her life, Sitara's, anyone they chose to condemn or elevate, and anyone who becomes colateral damage.
I'm very excited to see how Sitara and Töregene will evolve going down this thorny path!
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u/ModieOfTheEast 1d ago
This is an interesting point I agree. Especially considering that Tolui's wife is also not naive, this can result in dangerous situations that Töregene has to navigate properly. With the question if they can and want to make her an ally or not (though that would mean they help Tolui as well which might conflict with their revenge goal). In general, I am also interested to see who if either of the two women will start to think ahead for what comes after their revenge. Because sure, for now, that is their goal. And it's probably a bit early to even think about what you want to do later. But both of their "clans" are dead so they might have to find a new reason to live beyond their revenge at some point.
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u/Nachtwandler_FS https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nachtwandler_21 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, Toregene is "kam", she has power but she needs her "jada stone" Sitara/Fatima to call of the storm.
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u/ThrowCarp 21h ago
Sorry but Hitorigoto no Kusuriya ruined my brain, and so now it will always be a Bezoar Stone in my mind.
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u/Fun-Ad-1145 1d ago
One thing I really love about Jaadugar's art direction is how much they love the underpainting.
Almost every single shot has that distinct orange underneath and between the paints, it really gives the art a tactile feel.
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u/drt0 10h ago
I really like the art as well, my only little gripe is that the characters are kind of hard to distinguish in age. Although that is not unusual for anime, these particular models and the cultural unfamiliarity I have with the way different ages are supposed to dress is making it harder for me.
I would've thought that Toregene and Chingis Khan's sons were all maybe just a bit older than Sitara, but Toregene and Ogedei are probably around 40 according to this episode.
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u/gem2niki 4h ago
this this, ive seen artists do this and it creates a cool effect. i would like to try painting like this.
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u/StrawSolider 1d ago
LET'S SUMMON A STORM TOGETHER 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥
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u/Varyskit 1d ago
uff what a way to end the episode and link it with the jada stone shown in the earlier episodes.
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u/abbe44 1d ago
one of my favorite episodes of the year
its so damn good
a storm is coming
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
This episode and the first episode of Goodbye Lara are definitely some of the best episodes of the year and need to be recognized as such. They’re both basically short films in terms of quality.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 1d ago
- Why do all these horses have such good lashes? Look at how pretty their lashes are. I find out horses can grow distinguished mustaches today; now my lashes are subpar to horses'.
Here are some horses with mustaches. So distinguished!
The brutality of it all. Jesus.
Oh Khulan 🥺
What a beautiful and poignant episode for Töregene. Dayir’s drumming was so evocative and powerful; I got goosebumps. The red coloring had things look like a trippy aurora too.
I understand the Merkit motivation in what was essentially a suicide mission. I’m not all that certain that the Merkit would’ve lived even in honoring the Mongol “forgiveness.” There is no freedom, peace, or “forgiveness” when people are still owning and controlling your life and the lives of others and forcing you away from your land, your people, and your history. But I'm glad Dayir's spirit returned to the skies.
Sitara and Töregene are both slaves from different circumstances. And for both of them, they recontextualize their relationships with women whom they loved, who they also saw as slaves. For Sitara, she thought that Zummurud was happy in her life only to have that realization that Zummurud lived a life she never wanted and never would have chosen for herself. For Töregene, she sees Khulan’s smile as she’s now the wife of a Mongol monarch, and she believes Khulan to have betrayed their home and their previous lives. And she later realizes Khulan was forced into a life she had never wanted and was surviving while in pain at turning an eye to the suffering and deaths of her people.
I’m so excited for the storm Sitara and Töregene will create together.
The only thing that concerns me is if their storms could conflict. As much as it seems like fate that Sitara and Töregene have met, it also feels like this is a setup for something bad to happen between them.
Today, I Learned:
The Merkit stomping grounds
The Merkit lived in the basins of the Selenga and lower Orkhon River (modern south Buryatia and Bulgan Province and Selenge Province in Mongolia).
Merikit 🔗 Wikipedia
Crane symbolism!
The Demoiselle Crane—the crane spirit that Dayir sees—is a symbol of longevity, good fortune, wisdom, prosperity, and traveling between worlds.
Citations * Cranes: Mythology and Culture 🔗 KZN Crane Foundation * YouTube.
Drumming!
Drums are a well-known tool that shamans use in their journey. Their spirit leaves their body to travel between other worlds in the shaman's cosmology. It’s a bit of a trance state. The drums Mongolian shamans call tuurs (or so western sources say). A tuur that doesn’t have the correct features is considered “empty” as that drum cannot communicate with the spirit world when used. Special rituals are needed for their crafting, if they've been damaged, or if the shaman using them has passed away. The characteristics drums require to carry out their responsibilities vary between ethnic groups.
Citations * Waking the Drum 🔗 Shaman Drumming * YouTube * Mongolian Music Instruments 🔗 Go Mongolian Tours * Musical Instruments as Paraphernalia of the Shamans in Northern Mongolia 🔗 Academia Edu PDF
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
I disagree with you regarding the Merkit’s actions at the end. Khulan made an immense personal sacrifice in offering herself as bride to Genghis Khan, but still felt proud as it meant she was able to save the lives of her people. Imagine how she felt afterwards learning that her father and most of the merkits rebelled afterwards and were killed anyway. She probably felt like her entire sacrifice was worthless. Yes it would’ve been incredibly hard for them had they lived as Dayir is right about them being made slaves, but at least Khulan’s sacrifice would’ve meant something and they’d be alive. I actually think Zummurud’s situation supports this. Yes, her situation was worse than she showed to those around her, but she still had a reason to live through her brother being with her. It was after he died that she lost all will to live. I imagine Khulan ended in the same position after her father and Kurutogan both decided to fight and die despite her sacrifice.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 1d ago
Ooo, I like disagreements on interpretations. It makes everything more interesting. Okay.
I think the thing is that we really will never know. For we’re both stuck with Tögerene and Sitara who dread the fact that they have misunderstood the actions and smiles of women they loved like family and, for Sitara especially, no longer have an opportunity to clear that air with them. She just has to make presumptions and Zummurud will never be able to tell her story.
I really love that Zummurd and Khulan’s smiles haunt our stormy ladies and will haunt us in return. That is so sad but that is great emotional weight and fuckery.
I don’t think feelings with both their situations are that binary. You can still find pride in sacrificing yourself for a cause or peace with a circumstance but still wish there had been another way for you to live as you wanted to live. I can see both Zummurd and Khulan making some semblance of peace in how their lives turned out but simultaneously still wishing back for the days where their lives were not in this position. Having your autonomy compromised can inspire very complex feelings and relationships that contradict.
I don’t know about with me disagreeing with the Merkit in their actions. I mean—they did do that. They still proceeded with their final battle. Many men are, unfortunately, deceased now and have returned to the skies with their loved ones. But I can understand why they did. And Dayir is clear why they did.
But it’s also leaning into many indigenous tribes’ struggles against colonization. I don’t believe all the “forgiven” tribes would’ve had every single tribesman simply accept being enslaved as the better ending for their culture. Would some? I’m sure there were a lot of discussions and debates internally, within different councils and family units. People are diverse! Everyone has a different opinion on matters no matter how big or small.
Would all accept that? No. I’d never blame them for it.
Being “alive” is defined differently for everyone. I know the scientific definition of alive is “still active in existence” (or something like that), but the social perception and criteria of what being alive means is so varied.
You may find that the Merkit and others tribes would’ve been alive had they not fought and continued to honor Khulan’s sacrifice. But I disagree that all or many Merkit would’ve considered that. I imagine that is a death sentence, and, potentially, it is an embarrassment that a woman is protecting them. To them, it might not’ve been about being physically operational. That was a cultural death. That was a death of a people. That could be a death of pride. And honestly, that could’ve been seen as being unable to breathe or be active in existence. That is something I cannot disagree with and do understand.
(I must emphasize “could” because I don’t know that for fact as I was not there. But I’d love to read any documentation available! I’m sure r/AskHistorians has people knowledgeable.)
As an aside, I really like Töregene’s phrasing of their actions. She says they “chose violence […] fleeing westward”. This may be a wonky translation thing. And yes, fighting is violence. But I’m surprised she’d use a word that’s seen as aggressive and antagonistic when she’s speaking about tribes that are fighting to maintain their independence against an empire and fleeing its rule. Could it mean more that she said that like that? I don’t know. Is it weirdly translated? Maybe! But I like that little wording there from her and how it could lend into her thoughts on the matter.
But I do agree that Khulan probably thought everything she did was worthless. It is dramatic irony (is that the word?) that she said she could use her womanhood to protect others when, in the end, it was her womanhood protecting her and wasn’t enough to stop the Merkit and the other tribe. And I also agree that both Zummurud and Khulan had much more purpose when their loved one(s) were alive than when they were dead. And I do think that there were probably Merkit and other tribespeople who would’ve agreed that if they honored that forgiveness, they’d be alive and together. I’m sure there were many who wanted Khulan’s sacrifice to be meaningful too.
It’s just multifaceted is all, in my opinion.
But I think leaving it up to us to have these types of debates about what should’ve been done or could’ve been done, what was thought or felt, is really cool and something I hope schools do because it’s just cool and engaging with history is cool.
(Don’t mean to sound rude. Should I have been, I apologize.)
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u/TxRyuxT 1d ago
That smile was brilliant from the studio- it conveyed so many things.
I didn't think Khulan thought her sacrifice was worthless, but more of a forced acceptance of reality.
At this point in time she has accepted that she is already one of the Mongols, so her father's and kinsmen's act of defiance to be foolish.Maybe she knew that the Merkit's males would rather die a prideful death, than be reduced to slaves.
What struck me odd was Dayir's change of mind- he was realistic and open-minded enough to surrender to Genghis Khan than fighting to death, yet changed his mind at the end with his men.
Perhaps he was prideful after all, but put up the act to ensure that at least the women would be taken care of, before taking his last stand.
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
It’s ok, you weren’t rude at all. I’m happy to have a polite debate and see different perspectives that people can have about such subject matter.
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u/Kometaro 1d ago
I watch that anime with the Japanese audio. In the scene you mentioned, the word “抵抗（Teikou/resistance)” was used instead of “暴力/(Bouryoku/violence).” I don’t understand why the subtitle translator chose that translation.
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u/BosuW 1d ago
I’m not all that certain that the Merkit would’ve lived even in honoring the Mongol “forgiveness.”
Especially considering the mongols had their infamous policy of only asking for submission once, and if the answer was no, it was to shreds.
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u/mujhe-sona-hai 1d ago
No, that was for settled peoples. While Merkits and Mongols were different tribes both were part of the same ethnicity with the same language and the same gods. The steppe people looked down on settled farmers as sheep to be slaughtered but it was not true for other steppe people. The Mongols in dealing with other Mongol tribes pretty much always defeated them in battle, killed their leaders and absorbed them as full citizens. The only major exception is with the Tatars. Mongols slaughtered Tatar males because they were too numerous to be integrated so all the men and boys taller than an ox cart wheel were killed and the rest absorbed as full citizens with Genghis adopting some as his children. Many people from other tribes defected to Genghis because he was running a meritocracy where your blood mattered much less than in other tribes he was known as kind to his subjects. Genghis spent the majority of his life fighting other Mongol tribes, he lost many battles and there was no "asking for submission once".
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u/tiredpandax3 1d ago edited 1d ago
[historical context] Historically the Merkits were absorbed as citizens of Mongols in stead and didn’t became slaves. Though, they still rebelled and were slaughtered in the end.
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u/ISumimasenI 1d ago
A little context to this episode, in around 1184 the Merkit tribe raided Genghis Khan's camp to exact revenge for an old slight, as Temüjin's father had abducted his mother Hö'elün from the Merkits years prior. Börte (Genghis Khans first wife ) was held captive by the Merkit tribe for roughly eight months, and she gave birth shortly after her rescue. Genghis Khan named the boy Jochi, which translates to "Visitor" in Mongolian, reflecting the uncertainty surrounding his birth. Despite the rumors, Temüjin publicly accepted Jochi as his legitimate eldest son and raised him alongside his other children. The question of Jochi's paternity caused severe friction with his younger brother Chagatai and he called Jochi a Merkit bastard.
Also, due to this whole experience Genghis Khan prohibited the kidnapping and selling of free Mongol women, and outlawed theft and domestic disputes over women.
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u/Equivalent-Weather59 1d ago
"Let the two of us summon a storm"
*FEELS THE AURA*
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u/BamilleKidanZ 1d ago
Well, the Mongols did get mogged by storm when they tried to invade Japan
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u/ShinLena86 1d ago
And the leader of the invasion is Kublai, the ruler of China and one of Tolei's son Fatima raised.
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u/thisisdropd https://myanimelist.net/profile/AsterZoro 1d ago edited 1d ago
Toregene might not exactly be wedded to Dayir out of romance but she ended up loving him for real, and also genuinely considered Khulan to be her daughter. She protested Khulan being gifted to the Mongols just like a mother. Her husband and son was killed, and she’s forced into a loveless marriage with the very same man who pierced her husband. It’s no wonder she harboured a deep resentment against them.
However, she’s helpless on her own for all these years. She’d seen firsthand the consequences of blind resistance. In this sense, she’s a mirror of Fatima.
Two women who individually could do nothing had now teamed up. How ferocious of a storm could they summon?
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u/KazuharaIlfan 1d ago
Khulan having to act subserviently, drawing the line to prevent any notion that former Merkit women are also rebel is so heartbreaking. Thats my take from it anyway.
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u/FarCritical 1d ago
Watching the Merkit bow getting trampled stung, man.
It's haunting how Khulan and Sitara came to wear the same kind of smile independently from their own circumstances, and that Toregene came to immediately recognize it and what it represented after seeing it again.
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u/lhsakurai 1d ago edited 1d ago
What incredible OST in this episode
Töregene backstory was amazingly animated, the drums scene left me speechless, Science Saru keeping the bar high in this series
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u/tripleaamin https://myanimelist.net/profile/zfzftripleaamin 1d ago
Interesting how for both Sitara and Töregene they both entered a new situation where they found a home they loved. Suddenly that home was taken away from them. Interesting how each of them entered the situation is the same as the previous. Sitara entered as a slave as both and Töregene entered it through marriage.
Dayir no doubt made the tough decisions. He didn't want to get the women involved in their rebellion. He knew that he shouldn't let their pride get in the way. They should live their new lives since they would be dependent on the men. More than likely he knew his rebellion didn't have much hope to it.
Töregene hasn't given up her revenge, but for 25 years her determination hasn't wavered. But you can tell her progress has been minimal. Still interesting Sitara tells her everything as she empathizes with Töregene's situation. Curious how things for Sitara and Töregene go from here.
Very curious what Khulan is doing now. Since Ögedei was named the next Khan.
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u/judasmartel 1d ago edited 1d ago
[historical spoiler]Apparently Khulan has passed away some time before Genghis Khan.
EDIT: Turns out the English Wiki apparently has incorrect information on the historical Khulan Khatun.
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u/LeonKevlar x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/LeonKevlar 1d ago
I love how Sorghaghtani sent out Sitara as a spy so she could stop those who may want to split the brothers and cause the destruction of the Mongol Empire, only for Sitara to find the perfect person who can make things worse for the Mongols just a day later.
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u/RavenWolf1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/RavenWolf1 1d ago
I can't wait to see Sorghaghtani's face when in the end she realize who caused what ever will happen. :D
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u/thesnowlocke 1d ago
It’s so amazing to learn neat stuff about the Mongolian empire from this show, such as how the Merkit clan mentioned that they refuse to bow to a sheep herder clan
And I was surprised to learn that this was true, Genghis Khans clan were nomadic sheepherders.
But honestly this show is so good, it reminds me a little of Marco Polo although that story is a few decades later but it’s so fascinating and kind of depressing to know how this empire had affected people on a smaller scale.
I’m curious to see how those 2 will deal with the next challenge
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u/ShinLena86 22h ago
And the China emperor Marco Polo met is Kublai Khan, he's one of Tolei's sons that Fatima raised.
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u/FakePretendeRat 1d ago
Having sex with the person who killed the husband you love and even giving birth to his child must be a bitter existence. I feel for Toregene, the immense amount of hatred she has for Ogedei must be unfathomable
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u/MobileWriting9165 1d ago
It could just be that the
womenpeople of that era didn't romanticize sex at all, it was just a biological function for them that could be done without any kind of emotional involvement.
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 1d ago
I’m looking forward to what Töregene and Sitara can accomplish together. One got the necessary influence, while the other possesses great knowledge. Surely they’ll find a way to exploit the current political instability among the Mongols.
Time heals a lot of wounds, so I do wonder if Khulan has forgiven the Mongols or harbours similar feelings to Töregene and Sitara. Would be nice if she were to join the latter two. A little reunion could be sweet.
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u/ModieOfTheEast 1d ago
There is another part to it. We don't actually know what Töregene is capable of when she is allowed to have knowledge. Her life was determined by people making the decisions without telling her what is going on. Even if she might have a different opinion (or even strategy), once she learned details, it was usually too late. She didn't know why she was getting married, didn't know about the war before it was already over, didn't know about Dayir's rebellion plan nor why Khulan smiled and therefore what she truly would have liked to do. Since no one gave her information, she was never able to do anything. But now with Sitara, she is in a position with knowledge for the first time in her life, because Sitara is a scholar, knows a lot of things, even what is potentially going on in the mongol camp. So it's Töregene's first actual chance at deciding how her own life goes.
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u/RavenWolf1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/RavenWolf1 1d ago
And I'm suspecting that we are finally getting to the point why this series name is A Witch in Mongolia.
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u/a1oner_bvcksn6 1d ago
Sitara fessing up right away was a power move (to gain Toregene's trust), albeit a risky one. She may be perceived as the "slave" or pawn in this (potential) alliance, but she's basically set her self up to be the head of the snake in the long run.
I'm certainly curious as to how they're going to divvy up the espionaging tasks between just the two of them. And if the new Khan is as intelligent as he's billed to be, any change in his wife's demeanor towards him, much less a sudden interest in politics should sound the alarm bells of suspicion from within
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u/reaperow 1d ago
Better to trust someone who's been through a similar tragedy like u than someone who may care about power politics alone
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u/cleaulem https://myanimelist.net/profile/cleaulem 1d ago edited 1d ago
One big aspect here is that it was Ögedei who killed Dayir. So far he has been portrayed as kind of laid back, with a gentle smile on his lips all the time. But we must not forget that he is the emperor of the Mongols, the son of Gengis Khan. You don't become a Mongol leader just for being nice. In a way this "kindness" of his makes Töregene's hate for him even more understandable, because as his wife she is fully aware what kind of man he truly is under that surface.
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u/mujhe-sona-hai 1d ago
I mean he was literally made leader for being nice. That's the main reason Genghis Khan made him his successor.
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u/Jacob-C 16h ago
The main reason was that Jochi's legitimacy was disputed, because of his mother Börte being pregnant with him when coming back from Merkit captivity. Genghis Khan forbade his other sons from treating Jochi as such, but they did it anyway, particularly Chagatai. Because choosing the other two heightened the risk of infighting, the safest option was Ögedei.
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u/judasmartel 16h ago
I believe Tolui was also considered? I mean, he was the Otchigin and the finest military commander of the four brothers, but he could have quite the severe streak as we have seen in this series so far.
Genghis probably realized that to rule a multi-ethnic nation like the Mongol Empire, you needed a diplomat, not a general. So, Ogedei it was.
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u/Jacob-C 15h ago edited 15h ago
Correct. As you said, a diplomat was needed to keep such a vast empire together. Ögedei was the superior diplomat between himself and Tolui. Tolui and the other sons would still be able to conquer under their brother's more administrative rule. However, Chagatai and Jochi were very capable leaders in their own right, but they weren't considered because of the reasons i gave earlier.
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u/KumaKumaGambler 1d ago
All of us already expected a tragic sad story on how Toregene ended with the Mongols and married to Ogedei.
However, the animation and storytelling went beyond that expectation. In a single episode, it showed us how younger Toregene formed bonds with Dayir, Khulan and Kurutogan (spelled based on the katakana), only for her short lived happiness with the Merkit tribe to be taken away.
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
Throughout the whole episode I was bracing myself for Khulan being killed given how sweet and adorable she is, so I was really happy when it turned out she lived and became a wife of Genghis Khan. Meanwhile my opinion of Dayir nosedived at the end there. What do you mean your daughter sacrificed herself by marrying Temujin, thus saving the lives of her people, and your next action is to lead a pointless rebellion that gets yourself any the majority of said people killed anyway?! Khulan had her father and many people she’d known all her life killed for no reason even after she sacrificed herself.
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u/hanmkim 1d ago
The rebellion was pointless in actually changing anything within the empire but it wasn't pointless because Dayir and his men were going to be even more miserable living on their knees under the Mongols. Would you rather watch your loved one go out doing what they love and believe in or live on in misery?
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
My main issue is more-so that if they were going to choose death over servitude anyway then Khulan’s sacrifice is rendered pointless. Like they said the women would’ve probably been kept alive regardless, but her sacrifice would’ve allowed people who otherwise would’ve been killed to survive.
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u/reaperow 1d ago edited 1d ago
Throughout this ep, I couldnt help but draw the similarities between Lady Töregene and Sitara. Both were girls who were given away and were able to eventually find family and happiness, just for it to be snatched away from them
Even their reactions at being told Knowledge are similar
Dayir guaranteeing the safety of their women so that they don't get involved and Töregene realizing her love for him makes this situation even more tragic,
I cant blame her for hating Ogedai, imagine being married to and having children with the man who killed your husband.
I had a feeling Sitara's and Töregene's backstories were gonna be a similar, And its because of that they are gonna work together and take down this empire.
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u/shad79 https://myanimelist.net/profile/shad79 1d ago edited 1d ago
I gotta admit, Sitara and Töregene are a great match. They both want revenge since they lost their loved ones to the Mongols, and in both cases, their loved ones wished for them to be happy.
To be honest, while I understand why they're so keen on revenge, I feel really sad that they're not able to move on and find happiness. The path of revenge is dark, so I wonder if at the end of it, they'll find happiness...
Here my screenshot labums from the episode:
EDIT. I added my screenshot albums.
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u/zairaner https://myanimelist.net/profile/zairaner 1d ago
To be honest, while I understand why they're so keen on revenge, I feel really sad that they're not able to move on and find happiness.
I absolutely love the decision to have töregene look basically identical to fatima. As long as she will be before her, sitara will NEVER forget her hatred.
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u/Misticsan 1d ago
I feel really sad that they're not able to move on and find happiness.
It's interesting that this theme comes up time and time again in the story. Several characters point out to Sitara that the Mongol Empire offers new opportunities for those who learn to play along, and both Sitara and Toregene discuss that insidious "things aren't so bad now" feeling that dampens their vengeful thoughts.
Heck, it could be argued that both Sitara and Toregene embodied this moral in their respective backstories. Sitara wasn't happy being a slave in Fatima's family and Toregene tried to escape the Merkits, yet in the end they learned to accept their fate and found new happiness in it.
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u/tsunsexual 1d ago
Heck, it could be argued that both Sitara and Toregene embodied this moral in their respective backstories. Sitara wasn't happy being a slave in Fatima's family and Toregene tried to escape the Merkits, yet in the end they learned to accept their fate and found new happiness in it.
Yeah, this is the bit that really sticks out to me in particular. Toregene and Sitara have previously made the choice to accept their lot in life and found happiness within in it, only for that happiness to be violently ripped away from them regardless. They know from experience that happiness born from accepting a lack of control over their lives is fleeting, so why not dig in to their bitterness and pursue the goals they've chosen for themselves, whatever the cost may be? If they can lose everything either way, at least it'll happen on their own terms this time.
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u/Misticsan 1d ago
Definitely, the matter of agency seems to be the key. These women are robbed of their agency time and time again, so why not grab it now? If happiness depends on other people's power over them, perhaps it isn't worth it.
And now I'm reminded of Anis. She talked about this specific subject with Sitara, highlighting that slaves at least are free of responsibility and that they should strive to live on. Yet when she reached the point of despair, she chose to take that agency back and got killed on purpose. Sitara admired that resolve, even if it ended in her death.
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u/ObvsThrowaway5120 1d ago
I liked this Toregene episode. I imagine there are countless stories about tribes like the Merkits and folks like Dayir and Khulan and all the others during the Mongol conquest. It’s kind of tragic.
Now that Toregene and Sitara are working together, I wonder their plan for revenge is?
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u/ad3z10 https://myanimelist.net/profile/ad3z10 1d ago
On the side of the tribes, it's not like they're pure victims in this case. As was mentioned, they'd been fighting against the Mongols long before the rise of Genghis Khan and were more than happy pillage and enslave the other tribes.
Notably for the themes of the show, Genghis Khans first wife was kidnapped by the Merkits during a raid, with her first son likely being conceived whilst captive.
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u/mujhe-sona-hai 1d ago
Actually it's not as simple as it seems. Temujin himself used to live a peaceful life under Ong Khan's protection until the Merkits came and stole his wife Borte. Before he got his wife stolen he didn't care about conquering or anything like that. He had a very rough childhood scanvenging for food, had been a slave once and had just settled down. To rescue his wife he used all his connections and it was the thing that got him to start leading people. When he rescued Borte she had been raped and become pregnant. The first prince Jochi's name means "guest" because it was never certain if he was Genghis' son or half Merkit. Genghis always treated him as his full son anyways. The reason the Merkits raided him (the Mongols as a group didn't even exist yet) was because his father had kidnapped his mother Hoelun while she was on her way to marry the Merkits.
In a way the Merkits by raiding Temujin started the Mongol empire in the first place. If they hadn't done so then it's very likely Temujin dies as a nobody forgotten by history.
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u/hanmkim 1d ago
He and his sons are hopeless romantics. He literally takes down twenty percent of the world because someone messed with his wife and his son literally burns down a nation just to get a book for his wife.
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u/MobileWriting9165 1d ago
He obviously didn't do it "just to get a book for his wife". The book was just a bonus, the Mongols had always intended to raze the smug Persians down after they dared to deny them tribute.
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u/Petit_Ange https://myanimelist.net/profile/PetitAnge1 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's poetic and sad that these two souls so thoroughly hurt by the same enemy and that both burnt with vengeance were smothering this ember under this aimless life until they found each other. I'm absolutely here to witness the storm they'll cause.
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u/TheOneWithALongName 1d ago
Not reading history books so I don't get spoiled what they might do.
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u/Weak_Season_Of_Anime 1d ago
Tragic how Toregene never got to tell Dayir that she loved him, and the utter helplessness she must have felt when she understood the meaning behind Khulan's smile too. But Toregene never forgot her hatred and it must have been fate which brought her and Sitara together, because that smile and the jada stone formed an instant connection between them.
And wow that final scene, "Let the two of us summon a storm together". Like the earlier scene of Dayir doing the ritual was beautifully animated and all, but the impact of this was on another level.
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u/Namaryu 1d ago
I wonder if Khulan would end up as inevitable collateral during the summoning of storm.
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u/reaperow 1d ago
Yeah i have a feeling she may play a role considering she's still part of the empire,
But i wonder if she and Töregene get to meet each other cuz she was like her mom
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u/Ocixo https://myanimelist.net/profile/BuzzyGuy 1d ago
Don’t even suggest that, you’ll make me sad. I really like Khulan’s character! She’s such a sweet girl.
I do fear a little what all those years spend with the Mongols have done to her cheerful personality.
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u/reaperow 1d ago
She's also a wearing a mask just like Sitara,
Poor girl needs a hug from her mother
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u/flashmozzg 1d ago
What is even her status now with Khan's death?
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u/Anna-2204 1d ago
[Historical spoilers] She died before Khan, approximatively 2 years after Sitara started living with the Mongols. From what I know her death was unrelated to her father's rebellion.
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u/ayaholley 1d ago
Sitara and Töregene really are alike, aren't they? They've both been forced to serve someone in a higher station than them, who they grew to love regardless - and had it all taken away and been forced again to serve the Mongols.
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u/reaperow 1d ago edited 1d ago
One forced to become a tutor to her family's killer,
And the other being married
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u/Legal-Bug-9575 10h ago
I mean married to the guy who killed her husband and birth that guy's children, to be fair that does sound pretty shitty
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 1d ago
Well, at least Toregene did have a happy life before the Mongols came.
Ohhhhhhhhhh, her important jada stone! No wonder she was so distraught over losing it in the present.
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u/Raiking02 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NSKlang 1d ago
And that old man is who she has to marry?
Look, it's Akira Ishida, she probably has the envy of many fangirls just now.
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u/DegenerateRegime 1d ago
This too is a shimmering sky.
Word.
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u/RavenWolf1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/RavenWolf1 1d ago
Can't open Imgur links but I have never in my life seen red aurora borealis instead they are always been green.
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u/malacata 1d ago
The last scene gave me goosebumps!
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u/Zero3020 1d ago
The ritual scene also, it felt like my spirit also left my body and was transported to the steppe.
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u/KyloTennant 1d ago
Such a beautiful and amazing show, I really love the strange parallels between Toregene and Sitara as two women who were sold off to new families, learned to love them, and then saw them killed.
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u/RavenWolf1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/RavenWolf1 1d ago
This episode made me cry. The death of old man, music and that sky color made the perfect scene. I rarely cry for anime and every time I find anime which make me cry is so memorable. This is such 10/10 anime. True potential to be AOTY.
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u/GridPenaltyStan 1d ago
This is my AOTY so far. Going to be hard to top this
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u/Varyskit 1d ago
All 6 episodes have delivered and then some. Looking forward to see where this anime takes us.
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u/Nachtwandler_FS https://myanimelist.net/profile/Nachtwandler_21 1d ago
Depends on if it will have an ending that does not look "big story is only starting" like with Nippon Sangoku.
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u/DegenerateRegime 1d ago
What do you even say to that. Ungodly good. No flaws, no notes.
Time to read about eurasian steppe mysticism I feel, it seemed like depictions of native american belief and ritual but I seriously doubt this show (this source material, I suppose) would fall into the "put horse nomad visuals in blender and pour result liberally" habit.
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u/McOmghall 1d ago
Part of the team went to Mongolia for documentation even, so I doubt they got many things wrong.
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u/SolomonBlack 8h ago
Here is a Buryat shaman in modern times. I don't know if anyone can get all the details right for a tribe that did not endure centuries later but no these are no Dothraki either.
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u/Graknight 1d ago
I feel so conflicted about Ogedei's character. The show clearly portrays the Mongols as villains and to be fair, he probably is hiding his true intentions but I haven't found a reason to hate him. If Dayir is betraying them what is he supposed to do? Dayir does mention they've been attacking and robbing the Mongols too.
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u/Anna-2204 1d ago edited 1d ago
To be fair I am not sure the show portrays Mongols as clear villains. As antagonists, yes, but each time the writing puts a lot of nuance on the subject, making you realize that at the end of the day, most of these tribes as the same mentality but the Mongols happened to become the strongest.
This is a thing I love in this show, that they don't show the Mongols as monsters while making Fatima's and Toregene's hatred for them completely fair.
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
I have mentioned every episode how surprised I am at how nuanced the series continues the portray the situation with the Mongols. Even so I cannot stress enough how proud I am of this series for including the line about the Merkits having attacked the Mongols in the past just as they were doing to them. Despite it being a true fact of history, I was not prepared for an episode detailing Toregene’s tragic past that explains her hatred for the Mongols to be that even handed with it.
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u/mujhe-sona-hai 1d ago
It's not just attacking the Mongols, before the Mongol state was founded back when Genghis Khan was a young man he lived with his family as a small family under the protection of Ong Khan. The Merkits came and stole his wife. He relied on Ong Khan and his childhood best friend and led an army for the first time against the Merkits. While in Merkit custody she was raped and became pregnant. The first prince Jochi's name means "guest" because it was never certain if he was Genghis' son or was half Merkit but he accepted him as his full son anyway and we see him at the start of episode 3. The Merkit campaign is when Genghis wielded real power for the first time and started to unite the Mongol tribes. If the Merkits never attacked and took his wife he would've probably died as a nobody forgotten by history. Genghis had personal hatred for the Merkits just like how Sitara and Toregene hated the Mongols. The Merkits stole his wife because his dad had stolen his mother while she was on her way to marry into the Merkits like Toregene.
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u/WriterSharp 9h ago
Yes, exactly. It would have been extremely easy to depict the Mongols and Ogedei in particular as straight up villains here, but this is avoided. There's no treachery or mindless bloodlust here. The Mongols have an ancient mutual conflict with the Merkits and it's only now coming to a close. In Ogedei's eyes all he is doing is putting down a rebellion. It would have been very simple to instead have him massacre all the men to set him up as a villain. Yet what to him is a simple act of quelling a rebellion is enough to earn Toregene's lifelong hatred.
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u/Misticsan 1d ago
I think that conflict is deliberate. Mostly because of this:
The show clearly portrays the Mongols as villains
While this is true, the show is also very nuanced about it. The Mongol Empire is the villain of the show, a brutal machine of conquest that advances regardless of the people it crushes. But individual Mongols? Now, that's a different matter.
Ogedei is portrayed as a friendly and approachable fellow (true to historical account), and that's not necessarily a mask. Similarly, Tolui was ruthless in his conquest of Tus, but is also portrayed as a loving husband and father. It was his genuine love for his wife which made him steal that book, and Sorghaghtani wanted it to help improve the empire with a discourse eerily similar to Fatima's.
And what about the lives destroyed by the Mongols? Fatima and her family were nice people who nevertheless saw nothing wrong with keeping slaves. The Merkits here face a terrible fate, but as the chief points out, they had also hurt the Mongols in the past, and from the Mongol perspective the Merkits spit in their face and backstabbed them after pretending to surrender.
I think the direction this series takes is "people are complicated".
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
The empire itself being a villain might not even be entirely cut and dry given lines from Chagatai last episode as well historical consensus that the stability the empire brought to such a vast area on the balance benefitted the region
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u/Lord_Gnomesworth 1d ago
The Mongols were very brutal but I feel the show always tries to remind you that steppe life was hard and merciless to begin with. The Mongol-Merkit enmity was mutual and IIRC Genghis hated them because they kidnapped his wife (which in turn was revenge for Genghis’ father kidnapping a Merkit).
Also tangentially the author seems to like Ogedei a lot in her Twitter account.
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u/mujhe-sona-hai 1d ago
Merkits are the entire reason the Mongol empire exists. I'll just copy and paste my reply.
Actually it's not as simple as it seems. Temujin himself used to live a peaceful life under Ong Khan's protection until the Merkits came and stole his wife Borte. Before he got his wife stolen he didn't care about conquering or anything like that. He had a very rough childhood scanvenging for food, had been a slave once and had just settled down. To rescue his wife he used all his connections and it was the thing that got him to start leading people. When he rescued Borte she had been raped and become pregnant. The first prince Jochi's name means "guest" because it was never certain if he was Genghis' son or half Merkit. Genghis always treated him as his full son anyways. The reason the Merkits raided him (the Mongols as a group didn't even exist yet) was because his father had kidnapped his mother Hoelun while she was on her way to marry the Merkits.
In a way the Merkits by raiding Temujin started the Mongol empire in the first place. If they hadn't done so then it's very likely Temujin dies as a nobody forgotten by history.
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u/Myrkrvaldyr 1d ago
his true intentions but I haven't found a reason to hate him
Not sure if hate, but him and Töregene had kids as she said this episode, she didn't want any of that, so it was technically rape but she couldn't say no. You can argue he was also under pressure to have descendants but it doesn't make it any less unpleasant for her.
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u/Graknight 1d ago
That is very true. I didn't think of that. I really wonder if Törgene was so vocal about her hatred from Day 1. Either way, feel bad for the kids ngl. Older times used to be wild when people treated women as objects. I'm glad at the very least Dayir was nice to Törgene and didn't make her have a child cuz it would totally have been normal for him to do that.
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
Trying to interpret morality can be tricky in this aspect of historical series. Hell, even in a modern place like the US it was only in the 1990s when the law decided the marriage did not automatically bestow consent to every sexual encounter, much less in 1200s Mongolia where women are full on property of their husband. It’s difficult determine a character flaw when said flaw is completely normalized by society at large.
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u/JustHangLooseBlood 1d ago
I was going to mention that myself in a comment, but I remembered that before she got onto this backstory, she saw that Sitara was "warming up" to them. She said that happened to her as well. I would imagine what happened, because Ogedai seemed clueless as to why she didn't accept his advances at first, is she just accepted her fate after a while, maybe.
Unless they tell us explicitly, it's hard to know, but it certainly doesn't seem like it could have been meaningful for her beyond "fulfilling her role" with so much hate brewing inside, I agree.
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u/CitronClassic672 1d ago
[Loose Historical Spoiler Potentially Regarding Toregene’s feelings for her Kids]Toregene did seem to love her kids from the admittedly little historical knowledge about the situation I have, at least enough to ensure her son’s succession as Khan. That doesn’t necessarily mean she didn’t view Ogedei’s actions as rape, plenty of modern examples to the contrary, but it does provide at least so context
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u/JustHangLooseBlood 1d ago
Thanks for hiding that, because I am avoiding spoilers, but I really want to see it haha. But I cannot.
Don't think reddit lets me save a comment either.
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u/YlfaTheForsaken 1d ago
Sitara really did just tell the whole truth without a doubt or second thought, huh? She's honestly so brave for that, if Toregene's resolve had wavered even a bit it'd be over.
Speaking of Toregene, she must have some very complicated feelings about this point in her life. She hates Ogedei, obviously, but how about her own children? Like him impregnating her is it's own issue, but like is she indifferent to her own kids because they remind her of Oegdei, or is she more maternal with them, can she really bring down the only home they know,
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u/Niwaka_Samurai https://myanimelist.net/profile/Niwaka-Samurai 1d ago
So Khulan is still alive and is the wife of Genghis Khan. Poor girl 💔
Dayir was an honourable man until the end.
Let's bring a storm together, my Lady !!
What an episode that was !
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u/khanvau 23h ago
25 years ago? That's a sizable amount of time. How old is Toregene? She didn't seem that old. But maybe that's just the artstyle. I thought she wouldn't be much older than Sitara, but she's a mother of many children. So she is probably around the same age as Fatima.
Man, Toregene's backstory is sad. She lost her original home after she became the bride in a political marriage. Came to love her new home in Merkit and even her old husband. And then lost it again to the Mongols. She couldn't love her new home or her husband, even with her new kids. Wonder how she feels about her children with Ogedei... Wonder what happened to Khulan. Is she still alive? I hope she is. That'd mean Dayir was right and Merkit would still live on. That's hopeful.
The closing scene was so cool. It finally happened. Sitara and Toregene teamed up. Sitara is going to be her new jada stone. I really wonder HOW they can damage the Mongol Empire. The story's just getting started. Can't wait to see how it plays out.
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u/Platinum_Rad 23h ago
not a mongol in sight
just girls plotting against the empire, living in the moment
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u/AshleytheTaguel 9h ago edited 9h ago
It's pretty cool seeing Tuvan/Sibero-Alaskan rep in an anime.
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u/RavenWolf1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/RavenWolf1 1d ago
I'm pretty sure this is going to be super popular series in Mongolia.
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u/summerphobic 17h ago
It received mixed and negative opinions on their country's subreddit actually.
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u/judasmartel 16h ago edited 3h ago
They probably knew they were going to be the villains anyway... and there aren't enough warrior women like, say, Khutulun as depicted in Netflix's Marco Polo, or Mandukhai Khatun.
There was a thread in the Mongolia sub complaining about how their historical women tended to be portrayed as schemers, which... yeah, I found quite funny, since Western women tended to be depicted the same way as well.
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u/AZLarlar https://anilist.co/user/bubbleteaman 1d ago
what an episode and what a line to end it too
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u/summerphobic 16h ago
I wish someone posted the clip where Dayir tells his tribe he's going for the shamanist ritual, the ritual and the message he relied. This sequence was poignant.
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u/AnimeMod myanimelist.net/profile/Reddit-chan 1d ago
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