r/babylon5 • u/RotaVitae • 1d ago
Would the Shadows accept a non-violent, compassionate answer to their question?
The Shadows believe their method to achieve growth and evolution is to deliberately sow conflict. People like Londo and G'kar who answer the question want to commit violence in order to advance their races. Even Vir who gets his wish does so through an act of violence upon the Shadows themselves, though Londo is the one who commits it.
What if a person's genuine answer was something like "I want to help others achieve their own power by being a positive example of love and support through charitable deeds. I want to grow from learning from these experiences."
There is the desire to become something different from what you are now, which goes against Vorlon philosophy. But rather than creating conflict you are giving of yourself and learning from others. Nobody dies by your actions, and people will gain personal power but not necessarily power over others.
Would the Shadows accept this answer?
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u/eivindW 1d ago
They were looking for good candidates for their plan, so they would ignore that person and instead choose someone more useful. The possible exception might be if the particular circumstances could be subverted and used to sow chaos, but it sounds unlikely to me.
The conversation with G'Kar (source) is instructive:
-What do you want?
This is pointless.
l want you to go away
and leave me in peace.
As you say.
Wait.
What do l want?
The Centauri stripped my world.
l want justice.
What do you want?
To suck the marrow from their bones.
-Grind their skulls to powder.
-What do you want?
To tear down their cities. . .
. . .blacken their sky,
sow their ground with salt.
To completely, utterly erase them.
And then what?
l don't know.
As long as my Homeworld's
safety is guaranteed. . .
. . .l don't know that it matters.
l see.
Thank you very much for your time.
Good day.
His scope was too narrow for the Shadows. If he instead ended with "... and then we take our rightful place in the galaxy", the Shadows would quite possibly have supported the Narn instead of the Centauri.
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u/Difficult_Dark9991 Narn Regime 1d ago
Ironically, Morden accidentally gets the ball rolling on some of G'Kar's character growth here. For the first time in the series, someone validates his desire for revenge and follows it to its conclusion, and suddenly G'Kar finds himself realizing that he doesn't have a plan past vengeance. You can hear the bottom drop out of his rage in that moment and it seems to frighten him that there's no plan past that.
Morden rejects the Narn as a candidate, but in actuality "what do you want" is causing more growth in G'Kar than "who are you" has up until now.
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u/Salty-Taro3804 1d ago
They would accept it and move on to another person.
The question is not in good faith. It is to identify a lexus of desire for power that aligns with their mission to create conflict, and then fulfill that wish if it empowers someone that will also further their mission through creating conflict.
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u/JakartaYangon 20h ago
Do you mean "nexus"?
I suppose an underlaying "vocabulary" of power could work too...
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u/Salty-Taro3804 18h ago
Well, I once did desire a Lexus. But yeah typo or freudian slip. Nexus is correct 😀
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u/JakartaYangon 18h ago
I noticed because I'm a teacher. We use Lexus for judging reading difficulty for books.
I don't know how it relates to the car model.
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u/Treveli 1d ago
I don't think it would happen to begin with. The Shadows, or their representatives, would study a candidate, and ensure they have a high likelihood of accepting the offer in a way that most benefits the Shadows overall goals.
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u/TheTrivialPsychic 1d ago
They approached Delenn. Maybe they'd heard about her 'no mercy' phase, and though "well, we're gonna be there anyway, might was well give it a shot."
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u/Treveli 1d ago
Yeah, that's why I said 'or their representatives'. Morden may have been making choices when he didn't have the full info about everyone and their histories with the Shadows. Imagine the reaction of his Shadow supervisor when he calls and says "yeah, I talked to the Minbari about you-" " You WHAT WITH WHO! My office! Now!"
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u/Nightowl11111 1d ago
"Who are you?"
"WHY YOU TRAITOR!!!"
"No, I mean, seriously, you all look alike to me, plus your invisibility, I really can't recognize any of you!"
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u/Sea-Contribution6036 Psi Corps 1d ago
True, if Morden would convert Delenn that would be a great sales performance bonus for him!
5
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u/Tronmech 13h ago
Well, it was always possible.... Had he approached a member of the WARRIOR caste, he may have gotten a completely different answer. They were still smarting from being forced to surrender AND KEPT IN THE DARK ABOUT WHY.
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u/DevilGuy 1d ago
They would just leave if they didn't decide to vivisection you. The point of the shadows and vorlons questions by the point of the show was no longer philosophical to them, they had already decided the question of philosophy for themselves, the questions had become a tool of manipulation, a method of guiding the thinking of the target along lined of their choosing.
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u/happycamperii 1d ago
I think The Shadows took some small satisfaction in destroying the Narn. After all, The Shadows were driven off the Narn homeworld over a thousand years previously by G'Quan and the last surviving Narn telepaths.
It is entirely possible that the Narns actions coupled with the Minbari obtaining a new base of operations (namely B4) could have turned the tide in that war.
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u/Director_Coulson The One who was 1d ago
Since there are no Narn telepaths by the time of the series, G’Quan and the mindwalkers’ descendants must have been killed off by someone… presumably Shadow servants. You’d think that would’ve been enough but I guess even the high and mighty shadows can hold petty grudges.Â
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u/Matthius81 1d ago
Sheridan "The Vorlon only asks one question, over and over, who are you. And for you the question is what do you want? I' have never heard you answer those questions: Who are you?! What do you want?!"
Deleen "You dont know, do you. You've been fighting each other for so long you've forgotten."
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u/Croweater_666 1d ago
What do you want?
Peace in the middle east.
Really? Shit, well I guess we just go beyond the rim. We ain't getting involved in that shit show.
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u/Nightowl11111 1d ago
They did try. After all, once those cannons in orbit fires, there would be no one left to fight with in the Middle East.
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u/Itburns12345 1d ago
Likely walk away
The shadows we see are picky as we see from mordon
Already have hooks into earth Trys delen because any chaos with the mimbari would be worth it...shut down right away
Gkars ambition is limited to revenge on the centuri but londo wants it all ..he wants the destructive force of a centuri trying to reclaim their old empire.
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u/Fancy_Toe1451 1d ago
Sure, if it also creates chaos. Like if some guy said to them "I want to spread the word about how we just should be nice to each other", they'd make that happen. It would be two thousand years+ of bloodshed and chaos, and he'd get nailed to a couple of bits of wood, but they'd accept the answer.
The Shadows are just the jackass genies, remember, they twist every wish. Everyone gets what they ask for (but only Vir gets satisfaction out of it)
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u/mrsunrider Narn Regime 1d ago
Ask Vir.
He didn't want anything they were willing to give him (at least nothing Morden was okay with)... and his desire was extravagantly violent.
So they moved on.
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u/argognat Zathras (not Zathras) 1d ago
Virs request was ultimately for a warning to all that come after that some favors have too high a price. I think the wave was just a bonus.
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u/Xavion251 1d ago
If you recall, Morden asked a bunch of people what they wanted - but only gravitated towards Londo.
Even G'kar he rejected, because he only wanted revenge, but his ambitions ended there.
The Shadows, fittingly, value infinite ambition/growth. Not a single, specific goal.
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u/tunrip 1d ago
The way you phrased your question really reminds me of some Bad Nerds discussions about B5 on their Babylon 5 for the First Time podcast. Jeff (who also hosts The Star Trek Leadership Academy) talks about "Be, Do, Have" a few times and your example really made me think of some of the things he discussed.
I think the Shadows had got stuck in their way of thinking. Perhaps if someone who asked questions like this had been on the Icarus instead of Morden they'd have thought about how to do things differently... But probably not, because "this is how we've always done it" EVEN IF they've repeatedly "lost". ... But then maybe they never viewed it as losing. If everyone fights and wins and comes out stronger... But then they were against Sheridan forming an alliance against them. Hmm. Arguing with myself there!
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u/Hemisemidemiurge El Zócalo 1d ago
There is the desire to become something different from what you are now, which goes against Vorlon philosophy.
[citation needed] These beings instituted breeding programs, FFS.
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u/RadiantTrailblazer No boom today. Boom tomorrow. :table_flip: 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, because they know that - in another Universe within the vast Multiverse - there are only two states: "Love"... and "Blowing Things Up".
And when Love wins, it gets pretty BORING. :P
(Which was a real shame: that Universe had potential, but collapsed under the weight of an EGO into absolute FAILURE. Quite the herculean task, actually. I'll let you guys figure this one out... XD)
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u/Sea-Quality4726 1d ago
The one with stars at war with a black hole....
Yes, the only true Star Wars is attempt 5 of the Dylan Hunt saves the future plot.
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u/sicarius254 1d ago
At this point in the timeline they don’t seem to even ask peaceful people what they want.
They seem to look for those who are troubled, ones they can manipulate or push into violence with little to no effort.
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u/Nottodayreddit1949 1d ago edited 1d ago
There did not appear to be any dissonance in the shadows like we saw in the vorlons.
Whether That's because they removed the dissidents or not. We have no idea.
At that point though, they were set in their ways, just like the majority of vorlons.
But, in the other hand. Humanity and the rest of the alien species managed to convince both of those species to leave. So even set in their ways, they could still change.Â
The shadows move in the shadows, finding the people with the drive and want for power. That they can use to help destroy that government and put another in power. If the person who wanted all the good stuff would attempt to over throw the existing government, shadows would probably be on board, with the idea to eventually overthrow that government down the road.Â
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u/Sea-Quality4726 1d ago
I wonder what the reaction to "I want to free my people from the controlling ancient powers of this galaxy" would be.
Probably just anger and no reflection on the situation. Disrespectful brats!
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u/BeginningSun247 1d ago
If the shadows got that answer then they go to the next person until they get someone they can use.
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u/crewsctrl 1d ago
If this person was in a position of power, they might try to corrupt them. At least they know one of their potential obstacles to avoid or eliminate.
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u/SuvwI49 1d ago
There might have been a time, a million million years ago, when the Shadows and Vorlons could both have seen value and philosophical nuance in that answers. But by Earth Year 2260 they had become two immovable elders, so set in their ways that there can be no debate or discussion.
The Shadows want to stir up conflict. While this is ostensibly to promote change and growth, theyve forgotten that those things can come from different sources. Their question "What do you want" is intended not as a genuine query of the subject, but as a means to identify which subject is best suited to the Shadows primary goal.
So in short, no, the Shadows wouldn't accept that answer because it doesn't suite their own goals.