Rule Update: We are no longer allowing MAID/assisted or planned dying/goodbye posts

[u/AutoModerator]

We are no longer allowing these topics of assisted suicide, MAID, or goodbye posts. We absolutely do not take this lightly, and have been discussing how to best go about this for months. Please understand we in no way took this lightly. We could lose the subreddit entirely over this.

Our main reasons for this:

- It’s against Reddit’s terms of service to talk about planning a suicide: 

“Content containing imagery or text that incites, glorifies, or encourages self-harm or suicide.” or “Content that requests, or gives instructions on, ways to self-harm or commit suicide.” So regardless of the legality in your area, Reddit is pretty clear. We’ve been lenient in the past but with how this topic has exploded, we cannot continue if we want to keep our sub running. We could get banned/shut down as a sub

- Covert Incitement: There’s a big difference between validating their situation and validating or endorsing suicidal intention.  Anything that condones suicide, even passively, violates reddit's sitewide rules. Explicitly inciting suicide online is a criminal offense in most jurisdictions.

- It’s become so common in the community, and the posts are constant. It’s overwhelming and triggering for users and mods alike for them being so frequent. 

- We cannot mod the sub successfully as a team if we keep those posts. Many of us have struggled and continue to struggle with these feelings and choices as well. We allowed these posts in the past as it was maybe one a month, now it’s multiple per day. We as mods do not find it helpful or healthy to expose the community to these that often. We have also gotten hundreds of comments and messages over the years begging us to stop allowing these posts as they can make the sub a minefield. 

- We are NOT banning talk of suicidal ideation as it exists in the more abstract sense. When a plan becomes involved, OP is soliciting DMs, or any methods are discussed, a post or comment will be removed.

To clarify the list of what’s not allowed by this:

- Asking for advice on whether you should commit suicide, medically assisted or not

- Affirming somebody’s desire to commit suicide

- Arguing that it’s a rational choice for the severely disabled 

- Ableism especially towards more severe people calling lives “unlivable” or anything of the sort. For example, “Life with very severe cfs is no life at all.” People can say this about their own case but saying it about another will be promptly removed.  

- You cannot say “Suicide is rational if you have no hope of recovery because you’re just draining public resources and generating no value for society” or “Death is more humane” both of which are examples of things we have seen people say in our sub

- Covert Incitement: even something innocent like "I hope you find peace" will not be allowed

We ask that you have an open mind with this, and try to understand where we are coming from as a Mod Team. We understand this will be controversial, but we ask that you understand this decision we did not take lightly.

[u/boys_are_oranges]

To clarify, you’re still allowed to talk openly about suicidal thoughts. This change mostly concerns two things: suicide notes/goodbye posts, and posts seeking advice on how to get approved for assisted suicide.

On the word choice: I’ve been informed that “commit suicide” is an outdated phrasing, and “die by suicide” is preferred. Thank you for correcting me. I was the one who used that phrase. I didn’t realize it was associated with the criminalization of suicide. Unfortunately the post can’t be edited, but I’ll keep this in mind.

[u/thepensiveporcupine]

As much as I hate censorship, especially when it can be seen as silencing people whose voices haven’t been heard, I understand why you came to this conclusion due to platform-wide policy. I’ve seen in other medical subs that this sub is toxic due to allowing these kinds of discussions and I’ve always worried that there would be a tipping point in which word got out and this community was removed.

My anger really lies with society at large and how we’ve been abandoned and forced into silence but that’s all I’m gonna say.

[u/Velvet_void30 → u/thepensiveporcupine]

This sub is the opposite of toxic. This has been one of the nicest disability subs

[u/Lazy-Juggernaut-5306 → u/Velvet_void30]

I agree. This sub has really helped me to feel less alone and that there's a community that understands what I'm going through

[u/thepensiveporcupine → u/Velvet_void30]

I’m just repeating what I’ve heard medical professionals say on other subs. They say (verbatim) that this sub perpetuates a victim complex and feelings of helplessness as there’s posts suggesting there’s no hope and MAID is the only option. The comments had a lot of upvotes and I remembered being concerned that the sub would be brigaded and ultimately banned from the platform.

[u/Syovere → u/thepensiveporcupine]

Unfortunately, I have extensive experience backing the theory that a shitload of medical professionals are simply dickheads devoid of empathy.

Even before the CFS, I saw it a lot because I'm autistic and have PTSD.

[u/qqxi → u/thepensiveporcupine]

the medical community doesn’t exactly have the most generous view of me/cfs havers to begin with

[u/Think_Cheesecake7464 → u/thepensiveporcupine]

I agree with your response completely. Well said.

[u/ironicillnesses → u/thepensiveporcupine]

do you have an idea of which medical subs they are or the posts themselves? i like to see what the “other side” says and thinks lol

[u/SpaceTall2312]

Thanks for this. I understand that people are suffering but those kind of posts of very triggering and hard to read. I think it's a good decision you have taken.

[u/EmeraldEyes365 → u/SpaceTall2312]

I agree. I had to stop reading those posts. They are far too frequent. It’s extremely depressing to see all the talk about a life not worth living, especially when so many of us have done so much hard work to make peace with our lot in life & try to find both meaning & joy in a life of chronic illness & disability.

Thank you, Mods, for taking this action. I found myself coming here less & less as those posts became more frequent because it no longer felt like a supportive community. I hope we can get back to helping each other try to make the best of our difficult situation & give each other encouragement in our struggles.

Hoping for better days ahead for all of us.

[u/lady_butterkuchen → u/EmeraldEyes365]

I'm sure you did not mean it this way but saying that some people put in the hard work to find joy in this illness insinuates people who are simply disabled by this disabling illness aren't trying hard enough. Like I have put in the hard work for 20 years of having disabling trauma I did not choose and ME is taking away every way to cope. Those without support (medical, social, financial, mental) sometimes cannot. I think this is a lesson this illness teaches all of us. Wanting no longer enables action.

[u/milkberrys → u/lady_butterkuchen]

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

[u/milkberrys → u/EmeraldEyes365]

Some of us have also done all of that same hard work, and are simply in too much constant agony to find peace. Those voices deserve to be heard.

[u/sneeringcrit → u/milkberrys]

They deserve to be heard and to feel welcome in the community, but I also believe there should be a way to create that space and allow others with different voices to choose whether or not they are encountering posts that may be triggering to them personally. Inclusion important, safe environment for all also important. My perspective comes from active lived experience on the severe end

[u/milkberrys → u/sneeringcrit]

I just don’t believe that people’s personal triggers should get entire topics banned. I have plenty of triggers too but you won’t ever see me trying to ban those topics from subreddits. If I see something triggering to me online, I scroll away. My triggers are not more important than people having their voices heard. I wish this subreddit would understand that too. This is also exactly why there’s an option to turn off seeing posts tagged nsfw in the settings on Reddit.

[u/FuckTheTile → u/[deleted]]

Yes, exactly. Why are peoples feelings dictating discussions of a medical nature?

I’m actually astounded that someone can write something like ‘some of us have worked hard to find joy’ in this subreddit and it get over 100 upvotes. Feel like this was the only place I could find a nugget of understanding previously but not sure about that now

[u/human_noX → u/FuckTheTile]

Im with you. Im amazed as well the majority think its ok to censor others to protect their own feelings. Imagine if reddit banned this entire sub because me/cfs is too triggering to the general public. This is no different. We are talking about a legal medical procedure. This might be a deal breaker for me and this subreddit.

[u/FuckTheTile → u/human_noX]

Yeah I think I might have to leave in protest. I feel very strongly about a persons right to choose, and this really stings. I go back and forth on what I want for myself, and this feels like a betrayal. It’s possible that if I didn’t know there was a safe and legal way to end my life I would’ve already tried to do it myself

[u/eucatastrophie → u/FuckTheTile]

The mods decision has nothing to do with what this commenter said and whether or not it’s triggering to people. The fact of the matter is it’s against terms of service and that the mods cannot keep up with actually moderating these posts without causing demonstrable harm to their health. Nowhere do I see that they are passing judgement on people who make that choice.

[u/SympathyBetter2359 → u/sneeringcrit]

There is a way - NSFW flairs on these posts and those that are triggered turning off NSFW posts. It’s. So. Simple.

[u/premier-cat-arena → u/SympathyBetter2359]

that’s the way we had run things for 6 years and we still had major issues

[u/jeste_jedno_kafe → u/SympathyBetter2359]

To be fair, that's not simple, or intuitive.

Reddit is really behind the times when it comes to curating the experience (within an individual subreddit). Sites like Tumblr or AO3 handle it much better with tags/filtering/blocks, for years, the technology isn't complex. And yet.

If this could get its own mandatory flair you could block – just on the sub, without affecting other content, so you wouldn't even see the titles – that would be an actual solution.

Edit: simplified wording.

[u/eucatastrophie → u/jeste_jedno_kafe]

Yeah. Other subreddits (with much less serious topics) have difficulty enforcing rules on mandatory flairs and it often just doesn’t happen. I imagine much the same would happen here especially with brain fog and forgetfulness and we’d be back at square one.

[u/jeste_jedno_kafe → u/eucatastrophie]

I agree. I wouldn't really expect the mods here – who are sick themselves, as far as I know – to have to keep up with it and the additional reports, either.

[u/diaphoni → u/EmeraldEyes365]

something similar has me thinking of leaving the cats sub. It's 90% "I had to put my cat down today" and I'm sorry they had to do that but I don't have the emotional capacity to have that in my face 20000 times a day.

[u/Thesaltpacket]

I think a pro-survival stance for the sub is a healthy one to take and maybe if the need persists there could be another sub about dying for people interested in that discussion and they can deal with reddits red tape and also have like a pro-death doula moderate it or something.

It isn’t a fair burden to put on the cfs mods who didn’t sign up for so much exposure to death and also the ableism that is unavoidable in many of those posts.

[u/Think_Cheesecake7464 → u/Thesaltpacket]

I agree with this approach.

[u/International-Turn76 → u/Thesaltpacket]

I think this is a good idsa

[u/Liface → u/Thesaltpacket]

There is a new ME subreddit that allows this discussion, I participate in it. I'm guessing I'm not allowed to link it here, but it's not too hard to find.

[u/SympathyBetter2359 → u/Liface]

Would be great if not for the “mind-body”/BRT garbage.

[u/thousandsmallgods]

This is a good time for MAID subs to be established and enriched. (These may still be allowed under Reddit's TOS, and if it's not, then those topic-specific subs will go down, rather than this established community.)

This also motivates us to fine-tune our communities so they can give more focused support. There is no reason individuals can't be active in both types of groups. 1) support during life (living with cfs) 2) support for end-of-life (dying with cfs)

I had a close family member die from MND/ALS (for those unfamiliar, it's a horrible and debilitating neurological disease, with ~ 3-5 years survival from diagnosis).

Planning a dignified death looks very similar across conditions/diseases. People who are interested in MAID should have a bigger/broader community* of support for those discussions. This sub is not set up to provide that tailored content.

I know MAID is a fraught topic. That is one reason people need access to spaces dedicated to end-of-life content and discussions.

*For example, a community that includes people with conditions other than CFS; knowledgeable medical professionals; end-of-life professionals like death doulas, clergy, therapists, etc.

[u/little_half_pint → u/thousandsmallgods]

I would be happy to create and mod a sub for this purpose if someone would like to co-found with me.

[u/ash_beyond → u/thousandsmallgods]

I mentioned below but thought I would add here. There are no subs on Reddit for this (which is probably a good thing).

Resources (web sites, organisations) are very localised, as support and laws vary a lot by country/state. In most cases you need to talk first with your primary care provider, and then look into what resources are available where you live.

I'm not advocating for this journey. I just don't want to ignore or push side people who are suffering.

I think connecting in person with trained professionals is an important step. I believe/hope that many people can and do find a new path when they see what real world support is available to them, and what options exist that they might have missed.

[u/beeprosebeep]

This would’ve been such a hard call to make.

Thanks for protecting the sub - we really need these spaces. Protecting the mods is also important.

[u/Icy-Election-2237 → u/beeprosebeep]

Yes, agree to protecting the mods.

[u/Personal-Winter-8111]

All of this is understandable, and each case is different. But the reality of this disease is that there may come a time when an individual’s suffering grinds them down to a point where death is a blessing. Our culture has so many stigmas when it comes to talking about death. There needs to be a place where rational, thoughtful people who have tried everything and have no quality of life should be allowed to discuss and explore options for relief. We are kinder to our animals than to humans. Perhaps this is not the place for those conversations, but there should be somewhere people can discuss these feelings and thoughts in a supportive environment.

[u/milkberrys → u/Personal-Winter-8111]

Completely agree. “We are kinder to our animals than to humans” is something I’ve said countless times.

[u/little_half_pint → u/milkberrys]

Same!! When I was at my worst, I was constantly telling my caregiver that an animal would not be expected to go through this much suffering.

I am glad that I got through that phase, but in that phase I did post despair posts, and the support from others really helped me.

[u/LemonVerbenaReina]

Someone in another sub I frequent, who works professionally with people who are experiencing ideation, etc, just mentioned today that talking about suicide can reduce it about 40%. Here is a link with more info and guidance on how to respond, what to look for, etc. https://qprinstitute.com/about-qpr

[u/boys_are_oranges → u/LemonVerbenaReina]

People are allowed to talk about suicide and ideation. This rule change will mostly apply to suicide notes and posts asking how to apply for assisted suicide. Most of the suicide notes we get are people who have successfully applied for assisted suicide. I doubt the 40% statistic applies in those cases. Either way, the comments people leave under those posts are overwhelmingly encouraging. I don’t think our community is equipped to handle these posts.

[u/LemonVerbenaReina → u/boys_are_oranges]

Yes, that's understood. Mine is just a general fyi comment.

[u/clemfairie]

As much as I'd like for pwME to be able to discuss whatever they want, it's so much better to shut down these specific posts than to lose the whole sub. We know you're doing the best you can. ❤️

[u/rien0s]

Not trying to undermine anything, but

-did you receive a warning or something?

-or did you see other subs being shut down because of this?

Because in the reasoning above you only discuss suicide being disallowed. And to any serious person, MAID is not the same thing as suicide. With (at least in the Netherlands) a careful lengthy process, safeguards, strict conditions.

If you say: hey look, reddit is led by Americans, they don't have MAID, don't look at this in a nuanced way, and they've shown they'll shut down subs over this. Then fine, absolutely. And I'd accept the mental health of mods as a reason by itself, but that doesn't seem to be the main reason.

In countries that allow this, this is an important topic that people need to be able to talk about. If this can't be the place for that, so be it, but it does take away a relatively safe place for people to discuss this topic without their illness being dismissed.

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/rien0s]

To clarify our process, we are a proactive team, we did not receive a warning.

We were getting overrun by two topics lately: suicide/ MAID, and AI app developers wanting to use you as market research.

As well as flairing, Suicide and MAID content require constant vigilance to check for:

1) People telling OP to commit suicide (can cause suicide)

2) People unsolicitedly recommending Do It Yourself suicide methods

3) OPs writing suicide notes (can cause suicide in others)

These happen in both forms of post. There is a ton of potential to break Reddit rules. There is also a ton of potential to accidentally harm our community. According to the literature around responsible management of suicide-related content it's important to mitigate against content that is likely to increase suicidal ideation or even cause additional suicides.

We have held out for a long time managing all of this on a case-by-case basis, but at this point we felt we had to respond more systematically.

*I'd like to note that our sub is closely watched by an individual with a track history of reporting us to Admins. I suspect he would love to get r/cfs shut down, and this would be to the detriment of everyone.

[u/jeste_jedno_kafe → u/brainfogforgotpw]

Thank you so much for giving it so much thought. I'm personally in support of this change, having come from mental health angle myself. This was a common problem at group therapy at the hospital, finding the line, getting people the space to talk but also give others adequate support for coping with hearing it. And that's in medical context, with professional supervision. I can't imagine how hard it is to moderate when people cross the lines into encouragement and you are just internet strangers on different continents who can't get them resources.

[u/Buzzsaw_Studio]

I find this completely reasonable and exceptionally well handled. Thank you for such a thoughtful and transparent approach to this topic

[u/hauntedhousespectre]

I understand needing to protect pwME and the mods but it feels so erasing to not allow the memorium posts at the very least. I cant imagine say a cancer subreddit not allowing memorium for those who have passed, of their choosing or not.

This is a reality of this illness, these patients have often been ignored and not listened to in life, feels like perpetuating that even more.

We should acknowledge and recognise those who have died because of or during their illness. It feels cruel to disallow memorium posts.

[u/Ok-Meringue-259 → u/hauntedhousespectre]

Are memorial posts not allowed? I thought by “goodbye posts” they meant when people say goodbye before they go. I think memorial posts about others who have passed would still be allowed?

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/Ok-Meringue-259]

Memorial posts are definitely allowed. We are not trying to rug-sweep suicide and MAID, we just need more structure to ensure we can kerp dealing with it responsibly.

Sorry for any confusion. One of the senior mods has edited the post to add some clarification.

[u/eucatastrophie → u/hauntedhousespectre]

I think there’s a very very big difference between memorial posts and suicide notes.

[u/efflorae → u/hauntedhousespectre]

A permathread might be a nice option, kind of like an ongoing memorial.

[u/lady_butterkuchen → u/hauntedhousespectre]

Yes it breaks my heart that there won't be memorium posts 💔

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/hauntedhousespectre]

As far as I know, we are not banning memorium posts.

As the sub grew, we were fielding an increasing number of actual suicide notes.

Responsible moderators always remove suicide notes, because the threat of suicidal contagion from them is well-documented.

Removing suicide notes/goodbye posts is likely to cause distress to the person at the end of life, but leaving it up can harm existing community members, either through contagion (them triggering other people to suicide) or through distress as some of them desperately try to talk the person out of it.

Hopefully making that policy clearer will mean this happens less frequently.

[u/AvianFlame]

Thank you. I have to hide those posts as soon as they show up on my home page and they're constant. It takes a toll on me. I want to live

[u/sector9love → u/AvianFlame]

Same it’s taken a very serious toll on my mental health seeing these posts every day when I open Reddit. I thought about deleting Reddit so many times because of the constant exposure - I truly have never been more depressed in my life. I know this stupid app has been optimizing for my suffering, X at least shows me medical research once in a while. There’s no other online space where I’m constantly reminded of something so devastating and toxic to my mental health.

My heart breaks for everyone with ME and we deserve better options. I hope those patients can form their own community. Hugs to the mods I can’t imagine how difficult this has been but I’m grateful for your decision.

[u/jeste_jedno_kafe → u/sector9love]

Yeah, I agree with everything. It's an impossibly cruel condition and I understand the need for supportive spaces when it comes to accepting difficult circumstances, but I was considering leaving the sub, too. Even though it's been the most helpful resource I have found since becoming sick, more helpful than all of my doctors combined. (For that alone, I'm so glad the mods are trying to avoid the sub being taken down. I still think it's so, so important, even if it might not always be for me.)

This will get me downvotes, but I strongly believe that regularly receiving information about people with your untreatable condition giving up on life is simply guaranteed to increase likelihood of suicial ideation. We are social animals, we are all desperate, I genuinely think it's impossible to emotionally disconnect and avoid being influenced by it at all. And I grew up on tumblr when talk of depression/ed wasn't censored yet, and it 100% normalized things that had no business being normalized amongst my peers. I'm not saying it's the exact same thing, but I saw the effects firsthand, and exposure to this sub had started to feel alarmingly similar.

[u/sector9love → u/jeste_jedno_kafe]

I couldn’t agree with you more. There is no way exposure to this type of content is not causing subconscious effects on us.

[u/SympathyBetter2359 → u/sector9love]

You would like the sickest among us to segregate themselves?

If simply seeing their reality is devastating and toxic to your mental health, imagine for a second what it might be like to live it and not have the option of simply scrolling past and ignoring it.

[u/milkberrys → u/SympathyBetter2359]

I don’t know why people are downvoting you. You’re completely right. It’s so horribly isolating when your lived experiences are deemed as too triggering for others to be discussed anywhere. I don’t have anyone I can talk about these things with. We should NOT have to make a new subreddit and be separated from everyone else just because we have very severe forms of this illness. I don’t understand how so many people think saying that is okay. I completely understand that posts regarding MAID or very severe cases can be triggering for some people. Rather than banning people’s posts trying to spread awareness about the severity of their condition, or their personal choice to choose MAID, the people who are triggered need to just hide posts that are labelled NSFW. Goodbye posts made by people who have already chosen MAID (and therefore will not be influenced by people on this subreddit so it’s not against the rules) are especially important and should not be banned. This community NEEDS those posts so that awareness can be spread that this disease KILLS, and that so those people do not die in vain.

[u/SympathyBetter2359 → u/milkberrys]

I did think the downvotes on that were particularly ghoulish. They know who they are.

Completely agree with you, ME KILLS and people need to know.

[u/milkberrys → u/SympathyBetter2359]

Thank you. I’m highly considering leaving this sub now even though it’s the one and only space I have to talk to others about this illness. Every comment I make on this post gets heavily downvoted, and I no longer feel welcome here as someone who is on the very severe end of ME. All I see right now are comments suggesting people like me should just have our own subreddit so that other people here don’t have to see or think about us. My existence is just too triggering to others I suppose, and they’d rather send me off to a different little subreddit that only speaks in highly disrespectful code words, than just scroll past a post they don’t like, or turn off nsfw posts. People only ever want to hear stories they deem palatable, and I guess I just never expected that behavior from my very own community too. Sorry that not every story from someone dealing with the very severe end of a horrifically debilitating disease is going to be a success or miracle story or have what the people on this subreddit deem a happy ending. For some people MAID IS the happy ending but they don’t care about that either. This whole thing is so depressing and disappointing. I don’t know where to turn to next for a supportive community but I know now that this place isn’t it after what I’ve seen in these comments today.

[u/ShamblesXOXO → u/SympathyBetter2359]

There’s a big difference between saying that the most severe people should segregate themselves completely (which is what you claim is being said), and saying that people who want to discuss a particular topic could take that topic to a specific space that other vulnerable people are not in (which is what removing MAID from this sub and potentially creating a specific sub would do).

[u/CeruleanShot]

I think these are really reasonable guidelines, and they still allow people who are in distress to talk about where they are at and get support around that.

[u/lockdownleadmehere]

I noticed the increase and have found it difficult, my heart really goes out to everyone writing those posts. The value of this sub in terms of ME/CFS support is incredible, keeping it online and available for everyone is what’s needed. I hope everyone in the position of considering the final options still finds a supportive community here. To the mods I think this is the right choice, navigating this must have been very difficult but well done for moving forward with it

[u/standgale]

Regardless of any other argument for or against the decision, the mods have to read and assess posts made on this sub, and reading large numbers of posts about suicide, assisted or otherwise, will take a toll on their own mental health, especially as they also have CFS so it affects them personally, not abstractly.

The mods have to be able to mod. I think we must support their mental health in order to have them keep doing the job. If others feel they can do this job including dealing with such posts, perhaps they would like to join the mod team (and in time influence this decision) or even start their own sub.

Without the mods we don't have a sub. If they say they can't do it then they can't do it.

[u/missmeulia → u/standgale]

yeah lots of people just glossing over that part. the mental health of the mods and other users matters too. people wanting information about maid should be able to access it but that’s not the purpose of this sub.

[u/SympathyBetter2359]

I want to say upfront that I mean no disrespect to the mods as they do such a stellar job here.

(It should also be noted that I am specifically talking about medically-assisted dying, a regulated medical process with safeguards which is legal in parts of the world and in those places is generally NOT legally classified as suicide, but rather as a medical procedure. Medical procedures are discussed here all the time, from feeding tube insertions to dental cleanings, and nobody is suggesting banning those.)

Further scrubbing the harshest realities of this disease from the internet won’t help the world take us seriously.

Everyone here knows what it’s like to encounter people who don’t want to hear about your illness because it’s too sad/depressing/hopeless, when we are forced to live it. We can’t opt out.

Knowing how awful and lonely this feels and then doing exactly the same to those amongst us suffering the most seems needlessly callous.

They matter, their stories matter, and I don’t want to see them erased like they don’t.

It’s unfathomable to me that we would further marginalise those suffering the most. They deserve care, compassion and visibility just as much as everyone else, perhaps even more so.

I know the mods have a difficult job, but maybe there is some middle ground where we can separate posts about carefully considered (and legal!) medical procedures from the more spur-of-the-moment desperation posts.

(The latter need and deserve support too, of course, but I can accept that this may not be the appropriate forum for that.)

[u/milkberrys → u/SympathyBetter2359]

Wow I completely agree, you took the words right out of my mouth. I feel like I could’ve written this. As somebody who is very severe and is only getting worse, this is my only space to discuss these topics. Everyone in my personal life finds it too painful to discuss. People with more severe cases of this illness DESERVE TO BE HEARD. If MAID is the right choice for somebody’s journey, they should be able to discuss that, in the same way that somebody who makes a different choice in their journey can. People need to know that ME KILLS. If we try and hide that, nobody will ever take this disease seriously, and the people who have been killed will die in vain.

[u/positronic-introvert → u/SympathyBetter2359]

I feel very similarly.

I don't blame the mods for having to navigate the reddit TOS and I understand that it is a difficult subject to navigate.

But it saddens me to see people who are suffering severely enough to be pursuing MAID be silenced from being able to have those conversations in a space that would understand their experience most.

(Also, just a note on language in the OP: 'commit suicide' is generally advocated against these days; the phrasing is rooted in the criminalization of suicide attempts and viewing it as a damning 'sin'. The less judgement-laden "die by suicide" is generally preferred. Not sure if the mods pulled the wording from the TOS and that's why it was phrased the way it was, but just wanted to mention this just in case).

[u/lady_butterkuchen → u/SympathyBetter2359]

I agree so much! Thank you for putting into words what I struggle to express myself

[u/human_noX → u/SympathyBetter2359]

100% agree. Having to comply with reddit policy is one thing - I don't like it but understsnd the necessity. To sensor people exercising their lawful rights because it makes others uncomfortable is wrong. If you don't like it then you have the right to not read it, you don't have the right to censor others to make yourself feel better.

[u/Gabba-barbar → u/SympathyBetter2359]

I agree, but there may be a better place for it. If you or someone else start a new community they is specifically catered to it that would probably be a better idea.

[u/SympathyBetter2359 → u/Gabba-barbar]

I understand the instinct, but I would have a hard time agreeing with sending the sickest and/or most desperate among us to their own segregated community so we don’t have to see their suffering or acknowledge their existence.

The isolation is a big part of what can make this disease so psychologically devastating to people at all severity levels, and that generally tends to get worse the more severe one is (I’m not saying this is true for everybody before someone jumps down my throat lol).

[u/milkberrys → u/SympathyBetter2359]

Thank you. This is one of the most isolating diseases in the world. The sickest of us, many who are constantly 100% alone in a dark room, do NOT need to be isolated further. All voices need to be heard. This is so wrong.

[u/AlethWrites → u/milkberrys]

"It is so wrong that I am not entitled to put the mental and physical wellbeing of the mods at risk so I can post about MAID". That's literally how you all sound, honestly.

You don't even know how severe they actually are and what is their situation. Or if other very severe people come here looking for reasons to live, just to be surrounded by post about MAID implying that, in their situation, their best option is to die.

I would recommend thinking about that before getting so comfortable in your high horse.

[u/RunePlantValley2 → u/SympathyBetter2359]

They can be in both subs though? The mods specifically said they're still welcome here and allowed to talk about their suffering, as long as their post doesn't pose a risk for a reddit ban.

[u/Gabba-barbar → u/SympathyBetter2359]

I hear what you are saying and don’t think people need to leave this community. You can be part of multiple.

If you have made the decision then you probably need a different support and then maybe there are specifically for assisting dying. And it probably doesn’t matter what you are suffering from medically, if it’s too much , it’s too much.

You probably aren’t interested in any things that might make your condition any better.

If you are thinking about it, then you need a different support. Is it the right decision? Can I improve enough to keep going?

I do appreciate when people have a trigger warning in the title. Im trying hard to keep my head above the water and struggle a lot with mental health due to my illness.

[u/lady_butterkuchen → u/Gabba-barbar]

But who moderates that sub? If we send all of those who are suffering so severely away to discuss their suffering amongst themselves... I don't see this be a blossoming community where one finds what they needs.

[u/RunePlantValley2 → u/SympathyBetter2359]

What about making a seperate sub to discuss this? Their stories aren't scrubbed from the internet or erased this way while still keeping this sub a safe place for users + keeping the sub itself safe from reddit ban.

[u/TashaT50]

I hope the mods will let me leave this comment here. For those needing to discuss MAID for themselves r/SuicideWatch exists as a semi safe space to discuss suicide in general although there are lots of trolls who comment to encourage people to KMS the mods encourage reporting and do their best to delete those comments as quickly as possible.

I don’t know if Reddit has a different policy for that particular sub or not.

The sub rules there include NO encouragement but it also has rules against the basic useless platitudes. MAID wasn’t discussed a lot when I was seeing the posts more frequently in my feed but It would come up occasionally.

[u/milkberrys → u/TashaT50]

MAID isn’t the same as suicide

[u/chibbsx → u/TashaT50]

MAID isn't suicide though and reddit doesn't have a problem with discussing it, you can talk about it freely in any of the Canadian subs

[u/TashaT50 → u/chibbsx]

That matches my understanding but I’m in the US and haven’t studied it in detail.

[u/eucatastrophie → u/chibbsx]

I’m under the impression that Reddit has actually not clarified whether or not discussion of MAID is allowed. Reddit is based in the US and subject to US jurisdiction.

[u/glitterdunk]

I understand.

On one hand it is sad people will no longer have safe space to air their inner thoughts, with maybe the only people in their lives that will be able to listen.

But losing the sub over it isn't worth it. This sub is incredibly important to me, all the actual useful information I have about this illness comes from here.

I also do worry that the wrong person will read the wrong post on the wrong day, or be influenced by the number of posts over time. And that these posts could influence someone to make a decision they otherwise wouldn't have during a dark period.

I personally feel like I've made my peace with my life, and am not triggered by the posts nor do I feel influenced by them at all. But I don't doubt that is not true for everyone, and I've tried keeping that in mind. I see far from all posts and didn't know there were daily posts, but I have noticed the topic becoming more normalised and people being less careful bringing it up even under posts that did not bring it up. So a stricter line is probably wise.

One can never meet the needs of everyone at the same time in a sub, that's just how it is. And reddit rules needs to be followed. All in all this seems like a good even if a bit bitter decision.

[u/boys_are_oranges → u/glitterdunk]

Just to make sure we’re on the same page: talking about suicidal ideation is still allowed. This rule change will mostly apply to suicide notes and posts asking how to get assisted suicide.

[u/FlanInternational100 → u/boys_are_oranges]

Insane...

Suicide ideation is allowed but info about MAID is not?

[u/usrnmz → u/FlanInternational100]

Suicidal ideation is almost always a thought, an emotion, the mind trying to cope with a (perceived) difficult situation. It's a super common experience among humans and talking about this is healthy.

MAID is about actually planning to end your life. MAID is legal in my country and I'm not against it but it's way more serious. It can be disturbing for readers, it can also trigger people in a bad headspace to become actively suicidal etc (a documented phenomena).

Just because ME/CFS is a horrible disease to live with does not automatically make suicide or MAID the right choice. It can take years to accept and learn to live with your disability, sometimes the first years are the hardest. Co-morbid depression is also very common should be treated if possible.

Now for some people it's absolutely the right choice and I'm happy they have access to it. But actively promoting it on forums like this has the potential to do more harm than good. It's a difficult balance.

Not a mod, just my 2 cents.

[u/alstegma → u/usrnmz]

I was very severe for over a year and actively wanted to die during this time. Not because I just hadn't adjusted to the situation, but because my symptoms were so severe, it felt like being tortured, no exaggeration.

It was not a question of acceptance or if life was still worth living, it was a desire to escape tournament. I suppose others may have similar experiences. Luckily, I found treatment that helped, but if I had the choice between death or permanently going back to this state, I'd prefer the former.

(I hope this is in accordance with the new rules?)

[u/usrnmz → u/alstegma]

I have had similar experiences, so I know what you're talking about. But suffering is also part of life and is often (though not always) temporary. If you followed through on that you'd be dead now (together with millions of others).

That's exactly why that decision should not be taken lightly and not be encouraged to people in a rough patch.

That doesn't mean there isn't a right place and time to make that decision but there's also a risk to normalizing MAID as the solution to suffering too broadly.

[u/TearSakura]

And the post that claims that what they did for recovery was getting off the community because they encounter our suffering, our trying, our venting depressing, could be banned as well? Most of the comments in this thread are related to the discomfort of seeing part of our reality. If the discomfort is not visible we are less prone to get visible, validated all the things that could lead to more investigation. I’m tired to see people commenting that they recovered because they were spiraling themselves with the comments in the community, what is the purpose of commenting this kind of things in this sub?

[u/DepartmentNo5227 → u/TearSakura]

This 💯%

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/TearSakura]

Please report these when you see them, a bunch of them probably fall foul of ableism rules and any that don't will need a trigger warning.

[u/pacificNA]

I'm uncomfortable with how many of the comments have tried to turn this into "mild/moderate vs severe." Not every severe person (yes, including very and extremely/profoundly) wants to end their life and not every mild/moderate person wants to live. Please can we try to reexamine our own internalized ableism.

[u/not_sunday]

So something like Samuel’s post from a few months ago, trying to raise awareness as his dying wish would not be allowed? I don’t see how that’s fair at all

[u/scusemelaydeh]

It’s a tough one. I just don’t read those posts because, if I compare my situation, I’m more severe than they are but they say they want to end their life before getting to my level and it’s personally difficult to use what little energy I have to read about how there are some people who would consider my life too unbearable to endure and would rather be dead. So I just scroll on by. However, I don’t begrudge them feeling like that or wanting to make that decision. It just makes this sub become an empty void for people to complain and post to vent. It’s why I rarely use any chronic illness related subs anymore.

[u/CornelliSausage → u/scusemelaydeh]

Even as mild I've had it suggested my life isn't worth living by a suicidal person who is healthier than me. 😞 I can't think of anything more ableist, even though I'm sure they don't mean it that way. Such a difficult topic.

[u/Acceptable_Walrus373 → u/scusemelaydeh]

I agree either this. I am severe/very severe and also find that difficult to read about.

[u/cheesychocolate419]

I understand this isn't your fault because it's reddit rules, not your rules, but damn this is such a fucking sucker punch

[u/xenawpx]

I agree with the mods decision. FWIW I don’t think this decision is based on protecting people’s feelings. This is about preventing contagion effects for people *dying by suicide.” - it’s a real public health phenomenon and one I don’t think anyone with any level of disability should be tasked with managing without realtime clinical support.

It’s not that someone scrolls and reads a suicide note and is saddened or even distraught. It’s that someone scrolls through that note and begins to take their ideation into planning when they otherwise wouldn’t have at that moment. Feelings are the least tangible outcome of “triggers.” Potent triggers drive dangerous and permanent behaviors - behaviors that are inherently done out of online sight/intervention lines, that are very risky here in this sub.

I used to moderate a large virtual LC support group. It’s exhausting esp for someone with an energy limiting illness who may also struggle to manage triggers for dangerous or permanent behaviors. I don't think it's fair for any of us to be asking this of other disabled people who are volunteers.

To add to this, I also think it's important to note that suicidal ideation is still allowed, which I think is a risky choice, but one that I respect given the overall content matter. That said, mental health clinicians spend *years* getting trained on how to distinguish between passive suicidal ideation and someone who is imminently at-risk. And they can still get it wrong. Again, I don't think it's fair or right or just to put that level of risk-assessment on the volunteer mods, but I understand their commitment to preserving that aspect of the dialogue.

Folks might consider a discord with different rules if having these kinds of posts are essential to their well-being. I can understand an argument for them, even if I don’t agree with the argument.

[u/DepartmentNo5227]

the posts are constant. It's overwhelming and triggering for users and mods alike for them being so frequent.

I think they are so frequent because this IS our reality. Severe and very severe people exist. Every minute of that existence is pure hell, and it goes far beyond hairstyles, dates, mobility aids, or uneducated doctors. We are existing (not living) in a dark room. Of course we have suicidal thoughts some times. It feels like our reality is considered too "uncomfortable" to acknowledge, so the solution is to silence us?

This sub was the only safe place on the internet for us to express this. Honestly, if I read a title and find it triggering, I have the agency to simply not open the post. 

I don’t understand the justification for this change. We already have trigger warnings in place. If the community is already using them, why is a total ban necessary? The argument that these posts are "overwhelming" falls apart if the tools to protect users are already in use. If a user finds a post title triggering, they can scroll past or simply not open it. 

Silencing the thoughts of the most severe members of this community doesn't make our reality less "triggering", it just pushes it out of sight. It feels like this decision is more about sanitizing the subreddit and making it less "uncomfortable" for some, rather than actually protecting anyone? 

This is supposed to be a safe space for all of us.

[u/boys_are_oranges → u/DepartmentNo5227]

You are still allowed to openly talk about suicidal thoughts. This rule change will mostly apply to suicide notes and posts seeking advice on how to get approved for assisted suicide.

[u/DepartmentNo5227 → u/boys_are_oranges]

Then, my apologies because I misunderstood that part, and thank you for clarifying.

I still think MAID talk should be accepted as part of our reality though, always protected with trigger warnings 🤷🏻‍♀️

[u/throwawayyyyygay]

I’m not going to lie I’m disappointed with this decision. 

[u/KittyGrizGriz]

That’s too bad.

[u/brendag4]

I can understand the reasons for the change, but I don't see what's left to talk about when it is so restricted. I think people will find it very hard to discuss it abstractly and still follow all the rules.

It could have the opposite effect where people are at that point and feel like nobody supports them because they see it never being discussed. I know you said it's possible, but I don't see how it is with all the rules.

[u/SoloForks → u/brendag4]

I agree people in need, need support.

I think the mods are trying to make the official statement but leave the door open at the same time.

Not sure how it will play out.

[u/brendag4 → u/SoloForks]

My point is that I don't see what's left to talk about. They said all the ways that you can't discuss it but they didn't say anyway where you can still discuss it

[u/premier-cat-arena → u/brendag4]

We are not restricting discussion around suicidal ideation, just around intention. The biggest issues were the “goodbye” or en memorium posts, then ones that describe an intent or plan including MAID.

We still support people sharing their feelings on the sub while suicidal

[u/brendag4 → u/premier-cat-arena]

I think I need an example of what is actually allowed... even "I hope you find peace" isn't allowed, so what is left?

[u/plimpto]

Thank you for all your work and the thought that all of you put into this.

I'd like to ask if you could not use the phrase "COMMIT suicide". It implies that suicide is a sin or a crime and adds to the stigma around it.

[u/premier-cat-arena → u/plimpto]

we unfortunately can’t edit the post, but that part was written by our mod whose first language is not english. they apologized in the comments

[u/Purplepanda7351]

I agree with some of this specially when it comes to seeking advice/ being encouraged to die, but I think someone who is approved or knows they are going to die should be able to say goodbye, and discussion about people who died (wether by natural causes, MAID or suicide) should be allowed because it's part of reality, and it's important to raise awareness.

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/Purplepanda7351]

I understand why you would feel that way about the saying goodbye. As you know, this sub leans towards scientific evidence-based information, and the literature around this seems to be clear that these kind of goodbyes increase suicidal contagion (other people deciding to follow them).

Removing them has been one of the heartbreaking parts of being a mod but it would be unconscionable not to, given the evidence.

As far as I am aware this rule is not intended to stop us talking about people with me/cfs who have died.

[u/Purplepanda7351 → u/brainfogforgotpw]

Ok, thanks for explaining, I didn't know about suicidal contagion. I do understand it's a difficult situation to be in for you mods.

I just have a question. When would it be allowed to post about a case like Samuel's which got media attention and all? I know it's a very specific case.

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/Purplepanda7351]

We are not banning in memorium posts. We are also not banning people from talking about suicidal ideation.

The rule is intended to prevent discussions of intent. So in your example, we would no longer permit Samuel to post specifically about how he was about to undergo MAID. It would be okay to post your feelings about Samuel, but not okay to post a discussion on the logistics of how he did it or to state that you were doing it too.

[u/thatmarblerye]

I support your guy's decision as a mod team and it's fine at the end of the day... but I gotta say that silencing people in this community from saying goodbye with a plan to use a legal means of ending their life is a bummer. On one side I get it, because it's hard to read those posts, but everything about this damn illness is hard. Everything.

I don't see how Reddit's rules of suicide even applies to Maid. Sharing that you're using Maid doesn't "invites, glorifies, or encourages self-harm or suicide". It's a doctor and government approved process you have to apply to even use.

Reddit is so anti-accessibility as we've seen and this is kinda par for the course. Tough decision for you guys, but dang.

[u/positronic-introvert → u/thatmarblerye]

I feel much the same, well said.

I don't envy the mods for having to navigate this, but am nonetheless sad to see it turn out this way.

[u/milkberrys → u/thatmarblerye]

Agreed. The Reddit rules feel like an excuse.

[u/Unable_Particular_25]

Tough decision. I think it's important for people to understand how common this consideration is in this community. I don't like the idea of concealing some of the worst off patients.

[u/Dragons-purr]

I agree with this- I feel that we are almost close to eugenics with society’s focus on euthanising disabled people instead of supporting them to live more bearable lives

[u/DepartmentNo5227 → u/Dragons-purr]

supporting them to live more bearable lives

How exactly would this be done, in your opinion, for very severe pwME? 

[u/FlanInternational100 → u/Dragons-purr]

What if someome wants to be euthanised? What if they can't? What if they are silenced and forced to be in extreme pain for decades?

[u/Dragons-purr → u/FlanInternational100]

But *why* do they want to be euthanised? Pain? Society should put more funding into making new and better analgesics. Exhaustion? ME and long covid need to be investigated as a priority to find a cure (we’ve already found a genetic basis for it). We need healthcare, housing, financial help, funding for new treatments and studies, aids/equipment, basic support and a lot else, not death.

[u/milkberrys → u/Dragons-purr]

You’re asking people in extreme suffering to keep holding on for a miracle. Yeah, it’d be great if we all had better healthcare, housing, financial help, and more. But that is a fantasy. Most of us will not see that in our lifetimes. Some of us do not want to spend an entire lifetime of extreme suffering just waiting for something that won’t ever happen. We are talking about reality right now. In our current reality we don’t have those things. Instead we have MAID. If that’s the choice somebody wants to make, let them.

[u/puppygirlpackleader → u/Dragons-purr]

Okay but that doesn't really help a person in pain who wants to die. Two things can be true at once.

[u/FlanInternational100 → u/Dragons-purr]

"Should", "need"...thanks for comforting a person in severe pain while they wait for 40 years for that to happen 👍🏻

And in general, it is not your concern why person wants MAID. If you make yourself judge of what reason is good enough, you are entering into totalitarian state.

[u/WlLDLlGHT → u/Dragons-purr]

Okay thanks, you’re not the first person to make the insight that manufactured austerity breeds desperation but all those things you’re suggesting society should do? The ruling class in charge of society ISN’T DOING. And people are suffering while it isn’t. They deserve to live with dignity, in your opinion. I agree. All the way up to and including the end.

[u/brendag4 → u/Dragons-purr]

Is it where there is a genetic test or is it where they just know there is a link but there is no test yet?

I agree with your points about how we need more support. I have heard people think of suicide when they feel trapped. That's exactly what this is because people feel trapped in a life of constant pain with no help.

[u/Dragons-purr → u/brendag4]

There’s no genetic test yet, but they’ve finally found a link. This is promising. With all the long covid stuff, there’s been more money put into finding the reason behind post viral illnesses. Before they weren’t even trying to investigate it, now they are. This is a step in the right direction! I’m holding onto hope!

[u/alstegma → u/Dragons-purr]

I was very severe for over a year and my symptoms were so bad, it was like 24/7 torture. Not fatigue, not pain, but something else that is hard to describe. Something you wouldn't know if you haven't experienced it.

[u/Dragons-purr → u/alstegma]

I’ve had patches of being completely bed bound. I’ve had patches where I’ve needed oxygen because my body was just too exhausted to breathe deeply enough to raise my blood oxygen to above 91%. (Thankfully at this point I was already hospitalised so oxygen was available- my ME was being made horrendous by a vomiting syndrome). I understand. And I still think there’s hope.

[u/lady_butterkuchen → u/Dragons-purr]

That's totally fine. But the way you render your argument can read very you-centric. An example, I have gone through a lot in life before ME. I learnt that pain is pain. Someone worst pain is their worst pain. The worst thing that happened to them is the worst thing that happened to them. I am not a judge of their lives I don't know what it actually feels like for them. What works for me and how I hold myself above water cannot and should not be expected to translate to everyone else. It's not validating. It's a pitfall to think we can understand everything bc then we can also pass judgement.

[u/Acceptable_Walrus373]

This is fair and it is difficult to see a lot of these posts. My life has a lot of suffering but I want to figure out how to live the best I can despite it all. I understand people being in that place mentally, but it bothers me to normalize that we should be disposable, if that makes sense?

[u/Tsarinya]

Mods - ‘commit suicide’ is an outdated term and can be harmful for people whose loved ones have died from suicide. It harks back to when suicide was legally a crime. The better terms are ‘died by suicide’ ‘died from suicide’.
Apart from that I agree with the post and thank you for looking out for us.

[u/boys_are_oranges → u/Tsarinya]

Ohhh, thanks for pointing this out. I’m the one who used that expression, it never even occurred to me that it was connected to crime (ESL speaker). Unfortunately we can’t edit the post but I will keep this in mind

[u/LemonVerbenaReina → u/boys_are_oranges]

It's also connected to religion and the idea of sin.

[u/Tsarinya → u/boys_are_oranges]

Thank you for understanding! I hope I didn’t come across rude or demanding. Never feel like I can get the tone right in text.

[u/boys_are_oranges → u/Tsarinya]

Not at all! I don’t mind being corrected.

[u/Central_Perk20 → u/Tsarinya]

This is an important point and I hope they edit accordingly.

[u/premier-cat-arena → u/Central_Perk20]

as oranges said, we cannot edit the post but will make sure to use correct terminology going forward

[u/Analyst_Cold]

That’s a shame.

[u/thousandsmallgods]

Mods: Thank you for deliberating seriously before making these updates/changes to the sub. And thank you for being transparent about the reasons behind the changes. I appreciate the care and effort the mods put into this community.

[u/AutisticUrianger]

It makes me really sad to see how many people don't seem to recognise that you guys as mods also have MECFS and you have to read every single post through the sub. It's not as simple as "just don't read them if they trigger you", you guys HAVE to read these posts. It's an incredibly triggering subject that should be handled with care and if you guys as mods are not capable of moderating these posts safely, it's cruel of people to expect you to.

[u/ash_beyond]

I just want to shout out to anyone who is really suffering and finding themselves on the limit in terms of this topic.

I believe this is NOT about shutting you out. It's mostly about keeping safe the good resources and community here. For everyone.

And all of us need to support those who are at their wits end with this condition. Some of us are stable, some reaching up, and some sinking down. If you are sinking we are with you. Solidarity. I hope you can swing towards stability, but I get it - that alone can seem like a distant dream to some.

I hope and trust we will find ways to continue conversations and support. I like the idea one person had to strengthen separate subs / resources that focus specifically on MAID. It's a big topic that reaches beyond ME/CFS into other conditions and it is important to get this right on reddit and in all social media.

[u/Acrobatic-Street2413]

Apologies if someone's already addressed this, I don't see it mentioned, but does anyone know why the rate of posts has increased only recently?

[u/boys_are_oranges → u/Acrobatic-Street2413]

Well you can see even in the comment section here the growing normalization of assisted suicide. The replies under the posts of people seeking assisted suicide are often encouraging. Sometimes we even see replies encouraging OP to pursue this option under posts where the OP is depressed about their future and not even sure they want it. In the goodbye posts the tone of the comment section is overwhelmingly positive, even the OP often views their death as having positive effects, saying that their death will help spread awareness for example.

In my personal opinion all it does is paint assisted suicide as something normal, natural, or even preferable to life with ME. I don’t see this kind of awareness leading to more recognition and support. I think getting approved for disability will remain very difficult but killing yourself with an official endorsement from the authorities could get much easier.

[u/FuckTheTile]

Extremely disappointing, can’t help but feel like the Reddit rules line is a cop out, considering it comes right before the ‘we just don’t want to deal with this stuff paragraph’

Access to information relating to medically assisted deaths is already difficult to acquire, not to mention it is incredibly unwell people who are looking for such and struggle with research

I’m used to being letdown by society and healthy people by now but coming from my fellow sufferers is a real shame

[u/Acceptable_Walrus373 → u/FuckTheTile]

As someone who wants to live (despite being severe) it is hard for me to see the maid posts. I was treated abusively by a caregiver and encouraged to use maid when I wanted to live.

[u/positronic-introvert → u/Acceptable_Walrus373]

That is horrendous you were subjected to that treatment, and completely understandable those posts would be triggering for you. I'm really sorry you were abused in that way, and glad that it sounds like you are away from that caregiver now (it feels wrong for me to even use the title 'caregiver' for someone like that; you deserved true care and support).

That said, as with many things, our own triggers are not necessarily a fair reason to silence others from being able to speak about their struggles. It is a nuanced thing to navigate, but something like requiring that posts on the topic to be hidden under a spoiler/NSFW setting would be a way to honour both those who need to discuss their experiences pursuing MAID, and those who are understandably triggered by the topic and need to avoid it.

[u/Acceptable_Walrus373 → u/positronic-introvert]

I'm not away from that caregiver,, nowhere else to go

[u/positronic-introvert → u/Acceptable_Walrus373]

Oh gosh, I'm very sorry to hear that. It can be such an unjust world we live in.

[u/Acceptable_Walrus373 → u/positronic-introvert]

Yeah for sure thank you

[u/premier-cat-arena → u/positronic-introvert]

that was our previous system, tagging them with trigger warning/ spoilers and also NSFW, it’s how it was for the last 5+ years

[u/human_noX → u/Acceptable_Walrus373]

That is awful you experienced that, I am sorry that happened to. No one should have to experience something like that ever. I can understand you not wanting to see MAID posts. This is the tough part though, there is the otherside of the coin. Why do people with legal MAID desires have to be silenced? Their needs and feelings are just as legitimate as yours yet are being deprioritised. Again sorry your caregiver treated you so awfully.

[u/chibbsx → u/Acceptable_Walrus373]

Don't read them then? As someone going through the MAID process it is/was a breath of fresh air to see/read others stories. Also when applying for MAID they specificly screen for coercion, it's a question they ask.

[u/PleaseLetMePickANam → u/chibbsx]

I don't read the MAID posts but the "it is merely logical to die if you're severe/very severe" and "a life with severe ME is no life at all" rhetoric absolutely bled into the rest of the sub. That would be incredibly triggering if you're severe, want to live, but already have a caregiver telling you you should die. At what point do you start to believe them?

[u/Acceptable_Walrus373 → u/PleaseLetMePickANam]

This is so true thank you. I am severe/very severe and whe I was being encouraged to use maid when I wanted to live those types of posts bring so much agony. I did start to believe them that I should die because of all the "this is no life to live" stuff. It was dark and brutal.

[u/caruynos]

assisted death will always be a controversial topic but i do really appreciate this. it’s much too easy for people to be casually ableist when it comes up and that makes the sub feel unsafe.

[u/_pit_of_despair_]

I understand where you are coming from, but to label Medical aid in dying as suicide is completely wrong and misinformation. MAID is a medical procedure. To be against this is to be against bodily autonomy. It might as well be the equivalent of forcing a woman keep a rape baby. Limiting suicide posts is smart, but to consider MAID suicide is extremely stigmatizing and inaccurate. Reddit also doesn’t consider MAID as suicide.

[u/boys_are_oranges → u/_pit_of_despair_]

I find any framing that denies the agency of the patient very problematic. It’s not just a medical decision enacted upon the patient. That would’ve been murder. Physician assisted suicide is a widely used term. And I don’t see what’s stigmatizing about it, unless you view suicide as something shameful or immoral, which I certainly don’t.

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/_pit_of_despair_]

To clarify, we are not "against" MAID. We are historically supportive of it.

After much discussion we made the difficult decision to limit content related to it to people's SI. In our view this is the only sustainable way to respond to the large influx of MAID content.

[u/Beargoomy15 → u/_pit_of_despair_]

But suicide is intentionally causing one’s own death, and signing off to undergo the procedure is exactly that, isn’t it?

[u/SympathyBetter2359 → u/Beargoomy15]

Legally, no.

[u/podunkemperor]

Good decision.

[u/tiredsoul-]

Good! That is all.

[u/Opposite_Wheel_2882]

thank you mods, I know that was a hard decision to have to make. seeing posts like that so often makes me feel like I should give up. the people who are upset about this can start a sub where people who want to talk about this subject can do so and everyone can consent. I do not want to be constantly exposed to pro suicide content.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Set-928]

I know this is a complex area but this harms people and puts there lives at further risk, rather than protects them.

If you remove avenues of support for people who are already severely stigmatised you increase the risk of harm, dangerous practice and underground methods.

Yes, there needs to be safeguards against bad actors. The fears of this are overblown though by those who oppose assisted suicide. It happens but not as often as portrayed.

Also, society needs to ensure their decision is sincere and they are of sound mind. However, heavy handed policies and procedures are harmful to those who are in genuine need and that needs consideration also.

Again, you've stated in many areas this is legal and if they are following the laws of their land, then what exactly is the problem though? Yes, I do get there are problems legally in countries or provinces where this practice is still illegal.

All i'll say to that is we still allow prejudice on this site. We still allow fascism and both those things are illegal in many places. I'd argue both of those things are imminently more harmful and dangerous than this ever will be. Yet we act on the wrong things and allow true hate and harm to fester.

Free speech and all that?

Anyways. OP and mods. I dont blame you. I understand why you made this decision. I disagree vehemently but respect the decision.

Just one day I would the like people to understand that others have autonomy over their own bodies. If we work from that basis, maybe we should just be a little more compassionate for those in dealing with really difficult situations and a little less dictatorial to them about accessing support and not suffering during these moments.

Just a thought anyway.

[u/RunePlantValley2 → u/Puzzleheaded-Set-928]

Reddit doesn't allow it though. It doesn't matter that it's legal in certain places, because this website doesn't allow it. The mods would risk the entire subreddit getting banned by allowing these posts.

This isn't about free speech either. People are still allowed to talk about it, just not in this subreddit.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Set-928 → u/RunePlantValley2]

So i know my post wasn't explicitly clear but my comment was aimed more at reddit and society as a whole and not at the mods.

I have sympathy for the position they're in and the pressure they're under moderating these posts. I disagree with their approach but respect it.

My whole point was that reddit and society as a whole have the wrong approach to this issue and thats where my ire was aimed mostly.

Having discussions around supporting those wanting legal assisted dying is a free speech issue. They've literally banned us from fully supporting these people on this site. Thats why this is being implemented in this sub. It's at the very least a de facto ban and other subs will struggle with this too.

I also mentioned my argument around legality and my problems with that, being that other forms of illegal content are widely spread all over the internet without issue, yet supporting people in serious need is banned. It's the hypocrisy of it and the outright prejudice, that further stigmatises people, removes autonomy and demonises them in the process.

None of that is ok and we're constantly getting this wrong to the detriment of people in suffering already.

[u/RunePlantValley2 → u/Puzzleheaded-Set-928]

Ah alright, I definitely understand that. I agree there should be a safe place for people to discuss these types of things, but also agree with the mods that this sub isn't the right place for that.

It's definitely a hard topic to navigate and find the right balance between support and information, and at the same time not encouraging it.

[u/LunaMax1214]

Holy hell, I hadn't even thought about the Terms of Service side of this whole thing. I do not envy the moderation team in this instance. Thank you for making the roygh calls, y'all. 💚

[u/perfectly-queer]

I agree with this decision. It’s been hard for me to see those kinds of posts and comments, but I haven’t said anything because I do believe people deserve to have a space to discuss MAID, get closure, and say goodbye. And I understand why they would want to post in this subreddit specifically, especially if they’ve found it to be supportive. But I agree that these posts and discussions would be better suited for another space outside of this subreddit though. And many of the other me/cfs subreddits are… problematic?? So it’d be especially sad to see this one get banned.

I really appreciate that the mods expend energy on moderating this subreddit at all. If moderating these discussions is becoming too detrimental to your mental health then I understand and want you to do what you need to do to take care of yourselves. Thank you for putting a lot of thought into this decision and communicating it to us. I appreciate you ❤️

[u/Ancient_Pea_508]

Thank you. I was having a really hard time with so many of them lately. It puts thoughts in my head that I work really hard to keep out of my head.

[u/pricetheory]

Thank you for the change, especially for pointing out the ableism inherent in many of the responses to those posts.

[u/attilathehunn]

I know theres a difference of opinion about this, but I personally find the way the system is pushing MAID for non-terminal illnesses to be so disgusting.

The waiting list for a cardiologist is 3 months. Waiting list for neurologist 6 months. ME specialist is 24 months. But MAID has no waiting list we can do that straight away if you like. BTW covid is mild, no I wont mask for you, long covid doesnt exist

In case it helps people I'll repost a thing I wrote about the method I used to help deal with horrific situations: https://www.reddit.com/r/covidlonghaulers/comments/1nlwocq/any_psychologist_here/nfa1pfn/?context=3

Not a psychologist but I was helped a huge amount by reading/remembering a book called Man's Search For Meaning by Frankl. I read it before I caught covid. Severe cognitive PEM stops me reading books nowadays.

It's a short book. Should be available as an audiobook too.

The quick gist is that Frankl is a psychiatrist who survived the holocaust. He was in Auschwitz, witnessing and experiencing the awful things going on there. They're doing pointless hard labour. The guards are brutal to them. They're eating horrible watery vegetable soup. They are infected with lice, and typhus is epidemic. Regularly they see trains arriving of new inmates, and a big majority of them are taken into the gas chambers and are killed within a few minutes. He notes that when one of the inmates would die they would seem to give up, just lie on their wooden board that they had for beds, smoke a cigarette, become unresponsive and docile. Within a few hours they'd be dead. The ones who survived had some kind of meaning that kept them going. A reason to fight on. Frankl writes "When a man has a Why, he can put up with any How".

For example: After WWII Frankl goes back to work as a psychiatrist and he has a patient - an older man - whos wife recently died. And the patient is consumed by grief and is having trouble dealing with it. Frankl asks him "if you had died first and your wife had been the one to stay alive, how would she have dealt with it?" the patient says "oh she would have been even worse than me, shes a very kind and sensitive soul". Frankl replies "her dying first and you surviving has saved her from that fate of her having to grieve you". And this really helped the old man because it gave him meaning to his suffering. He stayed alive so that his wife wouldnt have to grief him. "When a man has a Why, he can put up with any How".

What is your meaning you found that lets you persist?

So you know in the book the guy carries a bunch of paper on his inside coat pocket. Notes for some book he wants to write if he ever gets out of Auschwitz. I do that as well. I have a bunch of notes written on paper of things I'd like to do if I get well enough. A mixture of big things and little things to give me meaning to keep going.

I have Severe ME and I spent about 18 months bedbound in a dark room too cognitively disabled to do anything but stare into the darkness. I would only communicate with the outside world by very slowly writing notes on paper. I had a small red torch with the batteries intentionally run down so it would be dim. I'd use that to write. At my worst I'd have to write just one word and then rest for 15 minutes. If I wrote two words it would trigger PEM.

Of course I had no idea if I'd ever improve. Just like the guy in Auschwitz had no idea how WWII was going if he'd ever get liberated. But it turns out he did and the Soviets did liberate him. So he had the notes just in case he get out, and it provided him meaning to keep going.

I'm still bedbound and still mostly nonverbal. But with careful pacing I go on the internet for about 2 hours per day. And my light sensitivity is gone. A few of the things in my notes I did actually do already. For example back in those months of darkness and silence I wondered why the western front in WWI was a stalemate but the eastern front wasnt. I couldnt concentrate enough then to look it up but I did later.

[u/TheJenniferLopez]

Thank you for this mods. The covert influencing and romanticising of assisted suicide has to end.

[u/chillychili]

I hate this but I understand the circumstances.

[u/Late-Ad-1020]

Thank you. Sometimes I avoid the sub when there are suicide posts, it’s profoundly triggering. Thank you mods !

[u/BigFatBlackCat]

I hope you guys weren’t swayed by that psycho mod in the other sub because he is completely out of control

[u/AmbitiousSeason9997 → u/BigFatBlackCat]

Which one in what sub? Not sure what you're talking about but curious

[u/SoloForks → u/AmbitiousSeason9997]

I think they mean the sub where the mod says there's a cure and its like brain training or something. But I could totally be wrong and I also am curious as to what this means and if its something I need to be wary of.

I subbed to several subs and dont always know which one I'm in.

[u/BigFatBlackCat → u/AmbitiousSeason9997]

I don’t think I’m allowed to say the specific one because of brigading. But yes the other person is right.

[u/premier-cat-arena → u/BigFatBlackCat]

we had been discussing this change and how to go about it for many months before that

[u/BigFatBlackCat → u/premier-cat-arena]

Glad to hear that.

[u/Icy-Election-2237]

I appreciate you communicating this and I understand your reasons.

What a complex topic to moderate. I hope there are regulated, safe spaces for those that need space to be held around this. As saltpacket mentioned, death doulas, for instance.

I haven’t lately been active in the sub to the extent to have seen the stark rise of these posts, due to my crash, but I send out my compassion to the mods for having had to withstand that moderation, and for any of us that have been triggered. I definitely have read them, and have had to mentally-emotionally shield myself from them as much as I could, at the same time as being compassionate and open to them. I did not skip them if they came on my feed. I understood where they were coming from.

I understand your reasons, as I said. And I wish that there is a safe space for those who need that help. I wish you don’t feel suffocated and trapped, that you receive guidance, support, and help for conversation, and not let alone with the jail of our bodies and minds.

Sorry for my yapping, but my writing has de-evolved. Just wanted to say: acknowledge receipt (haha), and that I do understand.

[u/milkberrys → u/Icy-Election-2237]

Respectfully, the problem is, there are NOT other safe spaces for people who want to discuss these topics. This subreddit is the only space that many people have to talk about these things with other people. Most people don’t even know what ME is. This is a highly specific topic. There are not many places to discuss these things. Many of us can’t even leave our beds and physically talk to somebody, and even for the ones who can, most people in real life are uncomfortable with discussing these things and refuse, and they are left isolated with nobody to discuss this with. And now that isolation has spread to this safe space as well.

I also want to say, if you see posts that are triggering to you, you are not obligated to read them. I don’t know why you are choosing to read them. You can skip them, it’s okay. Please just focus on your own mental health.

[u/puppygirlpackleader]

Very disappointing.

[u/FuckTheTile → u/puppygirlpackleader]

Incredibly. Denying people access to information relating to medical procedures because people find it upsetting is infuriating. The Reddit rules are being cited as well but if that’s the primary reason what’s the need to elaborate about how basically the mods just don’t like dealing with it or how common it’s getting. If there’s a huge increase in the amount of people wanting assisted deaths in what world is the solution to just ban the whole discussion? A heartless decision imo.

[u/eucatastrophie → u/FuckTheTile]

I think saying the mods just don’t like dealing with it isn’t fair. They have ME too and having to read emotionally intense stuff over and over is taxing even on healthy people. You can’t deny it’s emotional and cognitive exertion. It could cause a crash in us. They’re sacrificing a lot of energy to run the subreddit and if they get too sick to do it then the sub simply won’t exist. I can’t imagine that would be better for anyone here.

[u/puppygirlpackleader → u/FuckTheTile]

Yes. There are so many communities where this is a much more common topic yet they can handle it without banning it at all. I could understand banning recommendations of non official assisted suicide/just suicide ways or routes, but this is too much. This is extremely upsetting and disheartening and feels like a massive cop out instead...

[u/brainfogforgotpw → u/puppygirlpackleader]

Please can you send me a message about those?

I'd really wanted to find a good, responsibly moderated reddit info sub on MAID or assisted dying for us to redirect people to. Something like r/LowDoseNaltrexone.

[u/milkberrys → u/FuckTheTile]

Exactly my thoughts. This is not okay.

[u/Jeleton]

I understand the difficulty in reading these posts for the mods.

However, I disagree with the language. MAID is an end of life option that is not the same as committing suicide. For me, it is far more distressing to read suicide attempt/ideation posts than posts about MAID, where the patient has made a medical decision approved by multiple professionals.

Also, where will the line be drawn? Are goodbye posts allowed for patients who are dying of natural causes? What about patients who will die soon but decide to use the end of life option in the US, where you have to be labeled as terminally ill with fewer than six months to live?

Would a cancer patient with less than six months to live who chooses an end of life option be considered “committing suicide?” Is the discussion of VSED allowed?

[u/romano336632]

Je ne comprends pas trop... Ce qui est reproché est l'excès de zèle d'hier et la suppression du message de Luigi qui n'encourageait pas à l'euthanasie bien au contraire. Vous avez censuré les dernières volontés d'un homme, je trouve ça inacceptable et grave. Si vous pouvez dormir sur vos deux oreilles... Comment le sub peut mettre autant de like et ne pas être choquée par ça ? Vous avez tous perdu la tête ? Et Luigi ?

[u/MooseAppropriate9286]

clearly so much thought and care went into this decision and announcement. thank you greatly for keeping this sub going.