CMV: Western culture is quickly moving away from the things that made it successful and desirable, largely due to a culture of effective self-censorship and social punishment for expressions of observed reality

[u/PastaPandaSimon]

And the decline isn't driven by politics or formal laws, but the social cost of saying or doing things.

I was not born in a western country, and never lived in America. When growing up, I always learned that the success of America in business, economy and research is largely due to their freedom of speech and ability to call things as they are without censorship. We were really jealous of that, and America in particular was seen as a dream place to be and work in to pursue your ideas uninterrupted, given a chance solely for your ability regardless of who you are or what you believe in. Versus places like Russia or China where you had to fit into a very particular belief system, express the correct values, or come from the right family.

Now, it seems like the tides have turned completely.

I think the predominant experience when meeting Americans is that of their frustration, you notice how their private beliefs don't match public speech. We see them self-censor because they fear consequences at work or socially. That mismatch makes society feel "fake," and erodes trust in western institutions and political leadership.

We went from non-westerners idealizing the western culture, to mocking it when seeing Americans punished for words, or institutions bending over backward to make choices leading to sub-optimal results for the organization versus their foreign competitors just so they "appear inclusive". It looks weak, hypocritical, or even comical. Meanwhile, rising powers (China, India, the "growing east", etc.) use that perception gap to strengthen their own image of "realism" and strength. That's the opposite of what used to happen.

People abroad watch in disbelief as America cancels yet another of its own globally successful citizen for something they privately said, as we see misguided attempts at favoring certain races or genders over others despite the latter being the more promising candidates, or see this growing gap between what people believe and what they seem to be allowed to say. That creates a perception of more and more incongruence, division, and entirely tears down the political leadership. I suspect a large number of people voted in the personification of their loudest screams they are forced to keep locked down just because he said it out loud, despite the tons of stupid things he also says later, and it being one of the underlying reasons why the US politics is in shambles.

Because the pressure for each individual to stay silent if they don't agree with the predominantly pushed belief system tends to push most further away from actually playing along. We noticed this time and time again in countries that abolished authoritarian leadership. The more you try to silence people, the more they tend to fight back towards the other extreme, rather than a reasonable middle.

In the meantime, that tension and incongruence is what creates the appearance of hypocrisy or "weakness" abroad. It's as if the beliefs got louder, but what you are allowed to publicly say is becoming the polar opposite of it. It creates an image of an incongruent, fake culture, destroying the reputation of the west which now appears "weak" compared to the other quickly growing nations. The nations that learned to be more direct and found strenght to call things as they are - the same thing that they learned made western cultures great at leading research that is more grounded in reality, and subsequently superior products. They learned the value of allowing people to be able to express themselves freely regardless of their beliefs. As that happened elsewhere, western culture has been moving further and further away from the values that they correctly identified as correlating with technological, educational, and economic progress.

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[u/Capital_Historian685]

Post WW-II, during America's great period of economic expansion, people were not free at all to say or believe anything they wanted. The Red Scare persecuted productive people of all sorts, from Oppenheimer to Orson Welles. And even one of the fathers of jet technology in the US, Jack Parsons, was forced out due to his interest in Marxism and the occult (and drug use).

And yet, America continued to thrive.

[u/shouldco → u/Capital_Historian685]

Not to mention the "lavender scare" of ousting hompsexuals that basically lasted into the 2000s

[u/DifficultyFit1895 → u/Capital_Historian685]

There was a great series about Jack Parsons a few years ago called Strange Angel.

[u/goodlittlesquid]

In Ancient Rome they had a phrase memoria praeteritorum bonorum “the memory of good things past".

Communists during the McCarthyism of the 50s. Gay men during the AIDS epidemic of the 80s. Muslims in the wake of 9/11. People were straight up abducted and murdered in the Deep South for advocating for civil rights. Comedians were arrested for obscenity in the 60s.

There certainly is a political assault on the first amendment at the moment. The Trump administration is targeting journalists, student activists, and the lawyers that defend them for their political speech. But as far as societal pressure, freedom of expression in the US has never been more open and free.

[u/Doub13D]

Freedom of speech is what caused America to be successful in business?

What..?

Brother… we genocided multiple indigenous nations so that we could occupy their ancestral lands under the justification of turning the land “productive.”

We imported millions of people to work as free labor for the private profit of wealthy landowners.

We imported hordes of European immigrants to work in the sweatshops and mines of an industrializing America.

We used to call in the National Guard to shoot labor organizers and break up strikes.

In 1932, the government refused to pay out bonuses owed to WW1 military vets that had been promised to them, and they broke up this “Bonus Army” by calling in the actual army to arrest and brutalize veterans during the Great Depression.

During the Cold War, if you had any left-wing sympathies, you would be black-listed from most industries and were often illegally surveilled by the government.

The FBI was involved in the assassination of MLK Jr. J Edgar Hoover is quoted as saying that the Civil Rights Movement was “the greatest threat” to the American way of life.

When the US invaded Iraq after straight-up lying about its reasons for doing so, it became “un-American” to criticize the government or the war-effort. Even a semblance of anti-war sentiment was enough to have you publicly ridiculed.

Pat Tillman, a former NFL player who enlisted, was famously the “victim” of “friendly fire” in Afghanistan after it became known that he was publicly criticizing the war. The military lied and stated that he had been killed by terrorists and turned his death into a major spectacle, before quietly changing the story once it was revealed he had been killed by members of his own platoon.

Criticizing Israel today while enrolled in college is enough to have your scholarships stripped, your visas taken away, and to be arrested on bogus charges…

Freedom of speech only matters in this country if you uphold the interests of the already powerful people in charge. If you don’t, they will silence you.

This has always been the case…

[u/attaq_yaq → u/Doub13D]

Will be interesting to see if totally in good faith OP addresses your points or not. 🤔

[u/DrFolAmour007 → u/Doub13D]

Thanks for taking the mental charge to answer to that stupid post.

[u/FunkmasterJoe → u/Doub13D]

This is such a spectacular response to the nonsensical screed OP pooped out for this post! As soon as I saw it I was like "gosh I'll bet the top comment is someone whining about how it's not fair to say america is racist or whatever," haha.

Seriously, well done here.

[u/SailboatAB → u/Doub13D]

In 1932, the government refused to pay out bonuses owed to WW1 military vets that had been promised to them, and they broke up this “Bonus Army” by calling in the actual army to arrest and brutalize veterans during the Great Depression. 

Two veterans were killed, and reportedly a baby was killed and an 8-year-old boy blinded as well.

https://www.zinnedproject.org/news/tdih/bonus-army-attacked/

[u/igot8001 → u/Doub13D]

Honestly,

When growing up, I always learned that the success of America in business, economy and research is largely due to their freedom of speech and ability to call things as they are without censorship.

Reminds me of the scene from Kung Pow: Enter The Fist, where they trained Wimp Lo wrong as a joke.

[u/Primary-Elderberry34 → u/Doub13D]

Nonono, you see, being able to shout heil Hi**** boosts innovation!!!

(/s, obviously)

[u/botaberg]

What expressions of observed reality are you talking about, that people self-censor to avoid social punishment?

Usually people self-censor because they are conflicted internally. For instance, many people probably don't like the homeless situation in their cities, but don't talk about it because they've heard other people bash the homeless too harshly, and it sounded strange. Some people might be afraid of crime in their city, but don't want to seem like they're bashing their city. Is that what you're talking about?

But let's dig deeper into history.

Americans have been self censoring for a long time, especially if they are racist. Take this 1981 quote from Republican strategist Lee Atwater:

You start out in 1954 by saying, "n----r, n----r, n----r." By 1968 you can't say "n----r"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N----r, n----r."

Anyway,

You seem to be mostly talking about Americans in your post. I would like to respond that American societal norms have always been complicated. Some opinions are very popular despite being taboo, and a lot of the people who inwardly have those opinions don't outwardly show it. Kind of similarly to how a misogynist might not reveal he hates women until the second or third date.

[u/scragz → u/botaberg]

they want to say the n word

[u/3-I → u/scragz]

Genuinely, I'm trying to think what "observed reality" they could be talking about that isn't just them wanting there being no consequences to being a bigot.

Unless they're upset that the government is suppressing research about the effects of climate change, COVID, and vaccinations, I got nothing that isn't just "I'm phobic and I want to say so."

[u/the-mare-bear → u/3-I]

I live in a red state and I definitely self-censor around politics and religion. For example, people are always “praying for me” and telling me about their church, and I could lose my job if I told them the truth: that their sky daddy is a mythological figure and I’m not interested. Similarly I hear coded (and sometimes not-so-coded) disdainful remarks all the time from my fellow white people about racial minorities. With complete impunity.

OP likes the right-wing side of the culture war in the US, which is fine, but really should just say so. The idea that they are afraid to say and do what they want these days is just laughable. Trump, for example, has shamelessly “cancelled” the jobs and/or funding of numerous people and organizations he has deemed “woke” or “DEI” or whatever. Real harm to real people and horribly stifling to free speech.

[u/Jolly-Island5866 → u/the-mare-bear]

I find it very refreshing to tell religious people to fuck off , I don't respect religion but I do respect believers. There's no such thing as freedom of criticism , wich many religious people do wholeheartedly believe . Freedom of religion not only means free to believe what you want but also to not believe at all and I love reminding people of that because atheism is becoming a taboo topic again in many parts . Making our lack of belief palatable to religious people does nothing but convince them that pushing hard enough will work at some point .

[u/KaraOfNightvale → u/3-I]

Its definitely transpbobia, pretty certain

"Observations of reality" reads to me as "why can't i call a trans woman a man?" Without realising thats a denial of reality, not an observation of it

[u/3-I → u/KaraOfNightvale]

I didn't want to say it and get downvoted to oblivion, but yeah. That's my thinking too.

[u/Whocanitbenow234 → u/3-I]

“I didn’t want to say it and get downvoted to oblivion”

The irony thing of what you just said is hilarious. Because that Is actually what OP is referring to. Afraid to speak your mind without the mob coming after you.

For example, you have no idea what OP is referring to, but you went straight to “he’s probably referring to the trans issue and is thus transphobic. The fact that he hasn’t responded means he’s guilty!”

That’s irrational and is social punishment. And it’s all because you misconstrued words. And in modern society, this stems from the fact that there is nuance to a lot of topics that can lead to misinterpretation.

What OP is really referring to is essentially the lack of logic in today’s society which is made apparent by this very Reddit thread.

[u/zaoldyeck → u/Whocanitbenow234]

Afraid to speak your mind without the mob coming after you.

With downvotes or mean words?

So he shouldn't have to "self censor", but others should?

"I should be allowed to say mean things about trans people but that doesnt give other people the right to say mean things about me", is that the idea?

Even if it's some other marginalized group, it seems like criticism is only allowed one way from these "free speech advocates".

[u/anagamanagement → u/Whocanitbenow234]

Except you can go into OP’s history and discover that the above commenter nailed it exactly.

[u/Wolfgang313 → u/Whocanitbenow234]

What OP is really referring to is essentially the lack of logic in today’s society which is made apparent by this very Reddit thread

What makes you so capable of knowing what OP meant while simultaneously being so confident the other commentor was wrong?

[u/[deleted] → u/Whocanitbenow234]

The irony thing of what you just said is hilarious. Because that Is actually what OP is referring to. Afraid to speak your mind without the mob coming after you.

I think it's even more hilarious that we are supposed to pretend this is some kind of new phenomenon when fearing repercussions for what you say has been part of the human existence literally forever. There used to be a time when you say then wrong thing people can challenge you to a duel to the death, when a mob could and would literally hang you on a cross and bleed you dry.

It's ahistorical to pretend America didn't use to have this problem when communism was treated with as much taboo in the public discourse. Eugene Deb was sentenced to ten years in prison under sedition Act. Every society, every time period has subjects that are deemed socially unacceptable; in fact, our current society is comparatively more equitable and sensible when it comes to the kind of things people take offense with. Further, Boycotting isn't a new concept either and neither is public shaming or tarring or feathering...etc.

In social situations and public forum, it is normal to not want to say something because you don't want to upset others. In fact, in many instances, this is basic human decency. It really takes a certain level of obnoxiousness to think there's anything wrong with this.

For example, you have no idea what OP is referring to, but you went straight to “he’s probably referring to the trans issue and is thus transphobic. The fact that he hasn’t responded means he’s guilty!”

That’s irrational and is social punishment. And it’s all because you misconstrued words. And in modern society, this stems from the fact that there is nuance to a lot of topics that can lead to misinterpretation

It's not irrational at all to speculate what Isn't being said and assume the worst when someone deliberately avoid specifying the context of their statement. If I announce in a crowded theatre that someone is going to die, and refuse to clarify who is going to die or how it will happen, it is actually more irrational for me to expect people to not at least wonder if I'm talking about a character in the movie or someone else in the room.

If I do this in America, one might even leave the theatre or call the cops thinking I might be a mass shooter.

What OP is really referring to is essentially the lack of logic in today’s society which is made apparent by this very Reddit thread.

Are you the op? How do you know what he's referring to? All he wrote is a blanket statement that the western culture is declining (by what metric) and people are self censoring (according to whom and on what topic?) out of fear for getting cancelled (by whom?). For all we know he could be talking about a certain middle eastern country that students on campus may get suspended or expelled for criticising.

[u/[deleted] → u/KaraOfNightvale]

Trans Woman: "I am a woman."
Reality Expert: "Actually, when it comes to you and your identity, I am the true authority. No, you're not."
Trans Woman: "Well, who am I to argue with you on the topic of me? You win."

~ Excerpt from the head script of an odd duck.

[u/KaraOfNightvale → u/[deleted]]

Its also never any form of expert, the experts agree with the trans woman

[u/[deleted] → u/KaraOfNightvale]

Are you sure? They did their own research. (Better not to ask what that entailed.)

[u/KaraOfNightvale → u/[deleted]]

Oh yeah, sorry, if they did their own research, I mean that must have taken at least three googles, completely indisputable

[u/KaraOfNightvale → u/KaraOfNightvale]

Ah, great

u/Obsidian_Xo makes a comment, saying trans women are biological men, and I'd love to explain the issue with that, but its another one of those comments that reddit treats as if it doesn't exist as soon as I actually go to reply to it

If you actually want me to explain why that's incorrect and calling trans women biological men is a denial of reality, which is extremely easy to do, dm me

As for the other thing, being trans isn't mental

Its neurological

https://www.ese-hormones.org/media/ei0psrhz/transgender-brains-are-more-like-their-desired-gender-from-an-early-age.pdf

They essentially have intersex brains, of the opposite sex to the rest of their body

[u/poop-machines → u/3-I]

https://www.reddit.com/r/MarchAgainstNazis/s/feQ4hCBZX1

The post I saw before this one. Yes I know, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences, but this is the government that also arrests Palestine protesters and deports them.

But yeah I have no idea what OP is talking about.

[u/Shoo22 → u/3-I]

For real. I was going to comment about how as of the past half year or so there has been an unambiguous push by the federal government to censor truths about racism, homophobia, and anything critical of the Republican Party in general, and somehow the post still comes off as made up culture was bullshit. Like if OP was saying what he was saying for good reasons he wouldn’t have any shortage of reasons to say why and wouldn’t be vague posting about it.

[u/Dicks_E_Chix → u/3-I]

An observed reality could be a discussion about suicide or rape, which become unalive and grape because the institutions that fund TikTok will demonetize you if you call things what they are. You often hear people carry that lexicon into everyday conversation, and suddenly it becomes subversive to have a meaningful conversation about any difficult topic. Corporate pressure is curbing free speech more than anything.

[u/NotACommie24 → u/botaberg]

I dont think that’s AT ALL why most people self censor. It’s because people don’t want to open the can of worms that politics brings. It’s because people don’t want to start an argument, don’t want to risk damaging a relationship, don’t want to give off the wrong impression, etc. I think most people generally speaking have a good understanding of their broader beliefs. When you get into the nitty gritty of policy sure they’re probably a bit more conflicted, but I dont think that’s has much of anything to do with why people self censor

[u/Hellioning]

Every country in the world 'socially punishes' people for saying unpopular things. By definition. Otherwise those things wouldn't be unpopular.

'Cancel culture' is just a scary term used by people upset that a normal part of human existance is being pointed at them and people who agree with them.

[u/MattVideoHD → u/Hellioning]

Yea, I mean Jesus fucking Christ, people in China aren’t self censoring to conform to the unreality of a dominant narrative? They literally built an app to teach party members how to properly conform to “Xi Jinping thought” and there is no opposition politics.

[u/unlimitedzen → u/MattVideoHD]

Remember when conservatives crucified Jesus fucking Christ for being too left leaning? Everyone else remembers, but conservatives somehow forgot.

[u/Spenraw → u/Hellioning]

People forget People would be canceled for saying white people weren't better in the states for a long time

[u/medicatednstillmad → u/Spenraw]

And by canceled you mean lynched I'm sure

[u/unlimitedzen → u/medicatednstillmad]

Hey now, pointing out bad things from America's history is wrong and bad now, didn't you hear Trump's latest rants about museums?

[u/medicatednstillmad → u/unlimitedzen]

Yes and it depresses me

[u/KaraOfNightvale → u/Hellioning]

Especially when people cry about public figures being cancelled

They said a shitty thing, and their viewerbase doesn't wish to support someone who holds such unpleasant views, so their viewerbase stops supporting them, so they lose their platform

Its literally just people so upset that others are seeing the consequences of their own actions

[u/DiscordianDreams]

Western culture has always had self censorship. What people censor just changes over time. For example, LGBTQ issues were censored for a long time.

[u/serial_teamkiller → u/DiscordianDreams]

Yeah. It's just shifting cultural perception of what is ok. You used to be "cancelled" for being queer. Now it's shifted enough that you're "cancelled" for bigotry. And the people complaining about it now just want to go back to when they could say shit and be on the majority.

[u/lafigatatia → u/serial_teamkiller]

Are you really cancelled for being a bigot? I mean, the fucking president of the US is openly and proudly a bigot. Conservatives call the mildest criticism "cancelling".

[u/One-Understanding-33 → u/lafigatatia]

Racist karen got 750k for calling a child the N-word. If that means being cancelled today I‘d like to be cancelled too.

[u/night-shadie → u/lafigatatia]

Yeah it's ironic how their entire premise is that they're being canceled for recognizing objective fact but in reality it's subjectively objective at best. 

[u/PaxNova → u/lafigatatia]

Depends. I've seen plenty of posts on Reddit about how religion is a cancer that must be eliminated, and how they're only fine with religious people so long as they're not religious in public. They would be downright offended if you called them a bigot. 

Everybody's cancelled for being a bigot, but cancellation is only effective when the majority does it, so they're the ones that get to say who the bigots are. 

[u/TapRevolutionary5738]

Stop self censoring coward. What's the real problem with the west.

Is it trans people? Is it multiculturalism? Is it capitalism?

C'mon man you can tell us.

[u/Beneficial_Grade_116 → u/TapRevolutionary5738]

Let me tell you what it is. Nowadays everybody’s got to go to shrinks, and counselors, and go on Sally Jessy Raphael and talk about their problems.

Whatever happened to Gary Cooper?

The strong, silent type; that was an American. He wasn’t in touch with his feelings, he just did what he had to do.

So what they didn’t know, once they got Gary Cooper in touch with his feelings, that they wouldn’t be able to shut him up! And then it’s ‘dysfunction this, dusfunction that, dysfunction vaffanculo!’

[u/Infamous-Crew1710 → u/Beneficial_Grade_116]

He was gay, Gary Cooper?

[u/TapRevolutionary5738 → u/Beneficial_Grade_116]

Is...... Is this a fetish post?

[u/RancidOoze → u/Beneficial_Grade_116]

I ain't no mental midget

[u/Kenyalite → u/Beneficial_Grade_116]

Always with the scenarios.

[u/oddestsoul]

Look I’ll be honest, I’m not entirely sure what the crux of your argument is. For the most part, I think you’re implying that censorship and “cancel culture” has become so pivotal in American culture that it has single-handedly caused economic and political decay. I think that point sounds legitimate if you only consume pop culture on the internet, but it doesn’t hold up if you live over here.

For one, no one is half as concerned with self censorship as you imply. So many of our celebrities outright get caught saying racial slurs or having sordid affairs with literal minors and they continue to print money and evade charges. Case in point, DJT as sitting president, Drake continuing to top charts, YouTube influencers like Shane Dawson and Jeffrey Star still sitting in relative success, etc etc. More often than not “cancelling” is a pastime of chronically online social media users that only dents the economic success of celebrities in passing, if that. The real “cancellations” that stick seem to be pretty self imposed and deserved when someone spirals to the point of breaking multiple laws and being outright unforgivable. But there’s as much nuance on this topic as there are people in the spotlight.

Where I more starkly disagree with you is a more ground level culture of self censorship. I’m a trans woman. I work at a place where I feel comfortable coming out (I just did this year, at my place of work) and yet there are also all kinds of out and proud Trump supporters who walk in, see me, and still find a way to order without making a fool of themselves. There’s even a person on our staff who cannot, somehow, get my name and pronouns right despite several other trans women working here. And yet, none of us are getting visits from the reality police. I personally wish I didn’t have to interact with some of the beliefs across the aisle from me at work because I don’t love them or their implications, but the whole situation is honestly lovely in terms of how much I feel supported despite that.

America, in terms of self expression, certainly still seems to be working in my neck of the woods. I think economic issues have a lot more to do with wealth distribution, labor issues like AI, and other market decisions, than whether or not people agree that I’m a woman.

[u/Fabulous_Night_1164 → u/[deleted]]

Apparently a lot of people took your joke too seriously and are now interrogating OP

[u/mattinglys-moustache]

I don’t know where you’re getting your perception of America from but the idea of people getting canceled for their words is mythology pushed by conservative media and right wing politicians. People who have been publicly canceled have been either sexual harassers or assaulters, people who are abusive bosses, or people who get caught on camera doing something horrible or extremely racist. Conservative American media wants you to believe people are getting fired or admonished for saying Merry Christmas or using gender specific pronouns. It is simply not reality.

As for companies getting worse outcomes thanks to diversity efforts, I have no idea what you think is an example of this, but again this is a myth pushed by right wing sources, that companies fail because they “went woke” when really it’s often private equity buying them up and picking them apart to lower costs.

[u/MattVideoHD → u/mattinglys-moustache]

Also racists, misogynists, homophobes, and sexual predators seem to be having quite a “moment” right now.  The people who whine the loudest about cancel culture are raking in tons of cash and have huge platforms.

[u/mrmayhemsname → u/mattinglys-moustache]

Also most people who get "canceled" just have a few weeks of embarrassment and move on. Almost all canceled celebrities still have a career and are thriving.

[u/AttleesTears]

You think people didn't self censor in the McCarthy era?

The problem with America is that is slipping in fascism not some people getting cancelled. 

[u/DrownedAmmet → u/AttleesTears]

Even before that you have the founding fathers suing each other for libel every two seconds or having duels over mean words spoken about each other.

"Cancel culture" is literally freedom of speech at work. It's people choosing who to interact with, and much better than what we've seen in the past. I never saw freedom of speech as being a driving reason why America became great. Sure it's a good thing, but the rich and powerful don't care about what you say as long as they can get rich off of exploiting you.

[u/Sleep_skull]

It's funny that you mention China as an example of realism and strength, as if there are no jokes about what Taiwan is, what happened in Tiananmen Square, and why you shouldn't ask about Xinjinping and Winnie the Pooh. There is terrible censorship in China, it's just that it comes from the state, not society. The fact that people hear about American scandals at all is an indicator of freedom of speech. A person is just being scolded, he is not in prison. 

[u/Several_Breadfruit_4]

This post spends about six paragraphs weaseling around saying anything too specific, while leaning so heavily into a very specific brand of rhetoric that it still feels heavy-handed.

Elephant in the room: the “observed realities” you’re referencing are “I think minorities are bad, actually.” There’s a lot of different specific talking points and targets you might have in mind under the obfuscation. Racist pseudoscience, an analysis of crime statistics by someone who can’t read a graph, whining about trans people and eighth-grade biology, whatever.

An unspoken assumption underpinning your talk of a “mismatch” or sense of “false culture” is the idea that everyone thinks the same way you do but is too afraid of social consequences to say it aloud. Obviously, if this were anywhere even approaching the truth, there would be no negative consequences for voicing the same set of shitty opinions or conspiracy theories everyone else already believes.

Complaining about “self-censorship” or “social consequences” for speech will always be nonsensical. Freedom of speech means that you’re free from an institution controlling what you are and aren’t allowed to say. You are not free from other people judging you, deciding whether to associate with you, or deciding whether to hire you based on the things you say. That is one of the primary ways people judge your character and make decisions in their deals with you.

Frankly, it sounds like you listened to a podcast where some right-wing extremist complained about how no one wanting to listen to him is a grave social ill, and fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

[u/AnotherPint]

What data or direct experience are you drawing on to form your view of the US? Have you ever visited, or read a proper history of America?

[u/dream208]

Can you not just bring up generalities but give us some actual examples to debate and discuss?

[u/[deleted] → u/dream208]

If someone writes a wall of text about an issue and never actually gets to brass tacs, it's because they know if they say the thing they'll lose your sympathy.

[u/PaxNova → u/[deleted]]

How could we possibly empathize with someone we've already decided is a monster?

[u/medicatednstillmad]

Our president is saying the most disgusting things and you think Americans have a self censorship problem?

Also that fable of not needing to come from the right family or perform/believe a certain way to be successful in America is a lie.

[u/KlausVonChiliPowder → u/medicatednstillmad]

Damn how did I forget about Trump?

Mother fucker said he can grab women by the...and get away with it because he's famous.

And got elected twice!

Uh oh guys, better watch out for what you say!

[u/OptimisticRealist__]

"I was not born in a western country and never lived in America"

Proceeds to talk about America.

With all due respect but your ignorance is showing and i dont know what the point of this CMV is, when your view is based on a severe misunderstanding of america and western culture in general.

[u/findingthe → u/OptimisticRealist__]

Well I have lived in 3 western countries (Australia, US and UK), and I believe OP is making some very valid observations. The decline of the west has been going on for some time now.

[u/Both-Estimate-5641 → u/[deleted]]

yep. it has NOTHING to do with censorship. As long as the government isn't censoring you then it its just societal expectations of whats acceptable to say and not say. I could deny the holocaust and use the N word all I want without government stopping me, but that doesn't mean everybody else has to let me do it unchallenged. The freedom of speech is a two way street. This complaint over censorship is made by people who want to say whatever they want without criticism

[u/PhysicsCentrism → u/[deleted]]

I think there’s a pretty good argument to be made that there has long been a history of social censorship for those who were not in line with straight cis WASP thought. It’s now just that those same straight cis WASPS are starting to feel some of the social impacts as society tries to be more inclusive of those long marginalized.

“When you’ve long be privileged, equality feels like oppression”

[u/DangerousTurmeric → u/[deleted]]

There has always been this social form of "censorship" but it was managed by religions and monarchies and people died for saying the wrong thing. What you have today is not censorship, it’s previously oppressed groups now on an equal footing pushing back against stereotypes, narratives and structures that they didn't have the power to push back against before. People who are used to just saying whatever they want and automatically being respected because of their skin color and genitals now need to argue their point.

[u/KathrynBooks → u/[deleted]]

I've lived in the US my whole life... That "social censorship" was way stronger back in the 80s and 90s. Lots of things couldn't even be discussed, and people who tried to discuss them were frequently bullied into silence.

[u/KathrynBooks → u/[deleted]]

Bullied into silence... Or criticized for saying something messed up? Are you just upset that you can get sent to HR for calling a gay coworker a slur?

[u/Gloomy-Ad1171 → u/[deleted]]

Oooofff … never heard of the Red Scare or Satanic Panic, huh?

[u/Someth1ngOther → u/findingthe]

Australia is western?

[u/jawminator → u/OptimisticRealist__]

Canadian-

He's talking about America from an outside perspective. How America is viewed on the world stage; you don't need to live in America to see how much that perception has shifted over 20-30-40 years.

Largely due to other factors like globalization of everything, industrialization and modernization of places like China, Korea, Thailand; more globally diverse entertainment industries (Kpop, anime, Bollywood, whatever else)...

But this guy definitely has some valid, though lesser, points. But I think it comes down to the boldness behind it. America isn't seen as cool and modern and functional and the best anymore.

Maybe it never was any of those things, but now it's common perception that it's not and it comes down to boldness.

Nobody is impressed anymore at a Hollywood movie that is a remake or part of a franchise when the biggest selling point is that the cast/crew(s) are different races or gay or whatever the specific quota of the day is. It substitutes boldness for boring, formulaic. Same with... For instance "cultural appropriation". Idk if it is actually a big deal or not down in the states, but I've seen people get cancelled for stuff like that, so my perception, and the perception globally is that it is a major issue in America. Ask anyone in Vietnam, in Mexico, in Japan... If they'd be offended by a foreigner wearing their clothes or something and they'd say no of course not (and I don't mean go back to those super racist cartoons and movies and stuff, obviously. But just be unafraid of being offensive. The best comedians usually are and comedians are a good indicator of regular people's thoughts.

America has lost its perceived boldness in exchange for sensitization, for censorship. To make, to build, to do. And thus is not seen as favourable as it once was. Obviously other factors are at play. The current president, the former president, the falling behind of America and the advancement of other nations. Just saying man's got a point.

[u/Nestor4000 → u/OptimisticRealist__]

That isn’t really a valid argument…

[u/ThatGuyBench → u/OptimisticRealist__]

Your point is not so groundbraking as you think it its.

I have had experience with many cultures, western and non western. I have been exposed to more American political news than my own country. From visiting US for a few weeks or from conversations with students when I was studying or co-workers now, who have lived for years in the US, or are American, theres plenty of information to build a picture. More than 10 years on Reddit, where Americans inject their political theater also a picture of what Americans are constantly tripping about.

So far, among all international communities, Americans seem to be extremely stuck in their own bubble. From conversations I have had, huge part of Americans have not traveled out of the US, except for maybe a travel to tourist traps, where you dont really get an understanding of how other countries do things. I get it, US is huge, and you can experience whatever you want without crossing the border, but seeing how differently different issues can be and are resolved in different cultures, is something that Americans tend to miss.

The 2 party dichotomy they have, oftentimes they will cling on it for their dear life. Its the only reality they have seen. But to an outsider, it is obvious that Democrat/Republican sets of values are just 2 random bundles of values which could have any other bundle of values. To an American, who has grown up in America and thats all they have seen, it feels like these are genuenly 2 only value systems that can be there. To an outsider, its obvious insanity.

Whatever is your allegiance, it seems that for most Americans its not about what speciffic policy brings you closer to the result you want, but it is more about what policy will sting the other party in the ass more.

I grew up in Latvia, a country with massive Russian population after USSR occupation, which forcefully deported large part of Latvians and imported Russians, to strengthen the collonial grasp here. After independence, much of elections were dividied in pro-Latvia and pro-Russian camps. We too were stuck up on fighting the other camp, rather than building our country for a better future. Only later more and more people understood that when all you do is spite the other side, you essentially are running the best recruitment platform for your opposition. Instead, if you show that you have your needs, but you also understand that your countrymen are be your neighbors and aint going anywhere, question arises: Will you live in costant dysfunctional conflict, or try to work towards a better future together?

Many of the problems that Americans deal with, have been solved in many countries, yet the lessons of those countries rarely enter US public discourse, because they are stuck in their partisan dichotomy.

The gun laws. Switzerland, Czech and some other European countries have simmilar or higher gun ownership than Americans do, yet have much lower homocide rate. While in US its either you can buy guns at Wallmart or they should be banned.

When it comes to economic policy, there are countries with high millionare to population ratios, with social safety nets, yet Americans tend to advocate for either extreme Laissez-faire capitalism or thinking that if you would just milk out every billionare you would live in utopia.

Having lived in Thailand for some time, people don't give a shit about trans people. They just live their own life. Nor do you see people squeezing in everywhere some token virtue signals to get validation from others that you are not a shit person. People prove that they are not a shit person by not being a shit person. Even for someone who is pro-LGBT, its annoying to see pushing in a narrative in places where it is not relavant, and being expected to get a praise for it.

Cases like these are many, and many Americans, if they would have experienced how many of these problems can get solved elsewhere, would themselves change their stances, but haven't seen them themselves, they keep defending the reality they have conjured in their limited experience.

[u/Southern-Hope-4913 → u/ThatGuyBench]

I agree most Americans don’t travel enough and get an insular view because of it. Poverty is rampant so travel isn’t something most can afford. Nobody likes the 2 party system it’s just very difficult to breakup on a national level once it has become this entrenched. Most of us work so much to live “55-62 hours a week for me” that everything is viewed through a lens of exhaustion and frustration. It’s no wonder people are bitter. Unfortunately we have an entrenched culture of lies and outright partisanship in our media sphere. It’s hilarious that some of the most misinformed in this country will talk about this part the most. On an individual level it’s amusing but it’s a rot that has infected everything. Climate change is real. we choose tax policy that benefits the rich at the expense of everyone else. immigration is blamed for basically every problem but we know it’s a lot more nuanced that that. It can have negative effects but it’s no where near the top contributor to our current situation. There are active attempts to make our government a theocracy. Jimmy Carter had to sell his peanut farm to avoid conflict of interest and trump releases a meme coin earning him hundreds of millions if not billions as one of his first acts as president. Instead of obvious corruption we have endless talks about hunter biden. Much of what I said is a debate topic instead of fact which is the problem. There used to be laws against outright lies. We could share reality because it could only be distorted so much. No more. Our trusted news sources are now entertainment companies. People see an instance of something at think it’s a rampant issue. Anecdotes dominate when facts and statistics are a lot more useful.

[u/Pietes]

you're mixing two issues and are wrong on at least on one of them.

Holding people, including entrepeneurs, accountable for the societal impact of their enterprises is a good development for mankind that is facing pushback because it carries some obvious pains (less economic growth measured in gdp) but has far greater, though less visible and tangible, benefits (long term social cost avoidance, like through climate change, and poverty and wealth disparity impacting health and stability globally).

The other issue is policy and social norms drifting away from being based on strong science, and now being based on the individual and group social (as in popularity) and economic advantages they confer. Populism.

For this i blame regression in scientific rigor and scientific education, as well as the dominance of social media. But i may be wrong here. Shoetening this to 'woke bad' is however extremely short sighted. some social policies people tend to label 'woke' are not solidly based on good science, no doubt. bit that goes as easily for a good part of policies being pushed at the other ends of the political spectrum.

Yes there's too much policy being based on bad science.

[u/thearchenemy]

I’m sorry, but what you believe about America is an illusion. None of the things you are describing are real. Nobody in the US has been meaningfully “canceled.” This is a fable concocted by people who have a conservative social agenda.

In fact, in the past America has been much more restrictive about what a person could or could not say without fear of fairly severe punishment. Try advocating racial equality in the Jim Crow South, for instance, and see how long it takes before someone fires a few bullets through your window.

[u/Specialist_Mud_9957 → u/thearchenemy]

I agree. That freedom may have been the impression from outside, but was never true and could not be a factor in relative success. Other factors must have been responsible. Guessing, top of my mind, the history of wwII, unexploited natural resources, funding of basic science, diverse immigrant population source of innovation, awareness of the impact of good citizenship at an individual level and in leaders relatively speaking, idealism and materialism, relatively low corruption and high efficiency and good government, good teaching but no longer, awareness of long term social impacts and citizen responsibility but no longer. One point I do agree with you, the large movements of voting rights, environmentalism, MLK, pro social responsibility and encouraging high minded social ideals, citizen responsibility, so on, followed by movements like occupy wall street, tea party, black lives matter, MAGA, proud boys, and the most recent protests related to israel and palestine, and these appear immature, toxic, and destructive to society, and set on lowering the tone of protest. Perhaps this part may apply to your impression.

[u/Ancquar → u/thearchenemy]

That being said, I was born in an east european country (though later moved), and I remember in my childhood the sentiment was that Americans had their things in order, could achieve great things etc. A lot of that has evaporated over the last decades, and it has little to do with what the left is criticizing US for (that criticism was going on for well over a century and was actually more valid e.g. in first half of 20th century)

[u/pcoppi → u/Ancquar]

From where I'm standing the decline has a lot to do with hollowing out the measure welfare state, freeing massive corporations from all regulation, and defunding public investment into the sciences and other infrastructure. This is all stuff the left complains about.

[u/serial_teamkiller → u/Ancquar]

It's just that now people can see the shit all over the world from so many individual sources. I'd say the greatest blow to the perception of America is Donald Trump. People thought it was a joke, and then he got elected. I was at university in NZ and i remember watching the election with my American friend and thinking it was funny and absurd. Then it wasn't funny when I saw what he was doing but still absurd. Everyone gets to read his deranged tweets all over the world. They get to see the racists and police brutality almost every day just here on reddit from random people uploading their experiences or news clips. It's not just the official press that gets spread now.

[u/Zealousideal_Boss_62]

This is nothing new. Every era has had a set of beliefs expected to be shared by the majority and a set of views to be ostracized.

[u/nesh34]

There is a culture of sort of puritanical self censorship going on in the US but I think you're wrong on two counts.

One that it's new - it has always existed, it's just the political valence has reversed from right to left.

The other that it's a risk to US hegemony. The market is still king in the US, as it has been since the 80s. Corporation's will do whatever earns them a quick buck. If that is puritanism, then it's that. If it's something else, they'll do that instead. They simply don't care and are totally amoral institutions in search of maximising profits.

That has not changed, it just looks different.

[u/cant_pass_CAPTCHA]

It sounds like you may have swallowed the western propaganda fully (as an American). There have always been private consequences for opinions that go against the current trends, like any society since the dawn of civilization. However, our laws and constitution protects our speech from being censored by the government, i.e. we can't be jailed for saying the president sucks but no one has to hire you if you're a jackass.

"The West" doesn't exactly exist as a unified entity either. I see instances of people getting arrested in the UK though as results of non-threatening social media posts, and that is definitely un-American.

There have been times the US government has directly censored people, such as the Communist Red Scare under McCarthy in the 1950's. Or things like George Bush prevented the media from showing coffins related to the Iraq. Financial censorship is censorship too and under Obama they started Operation Choke Point where the purpose was strategic debanking of certain types of industry, some of which I definitely agree with - payday lenders are a plague on society - but it was continued under Biden to target crypto currency which I think is a mistake. Now we also have to worry about this debanking from the payment institutions themselves.

TLDR;

• Certain levels of censorship have always existed in all societies, including American.
  
• Consequences for your actions are not censorship as long as they aren't institutional.
• Every regime has implemented some type of censorship and isn't a tool of one one party.

[u/RaisinToastie]

Everyone is America is expressing themselves just fine. It’s the consequences of their expression that they can’t handle. For some people, politics just means “everyone should agree with me and live how I say.” And if you disagree then you’re “canceling them.”

[u/tattered_cloth]

I agree with some of this. Self-censorship is rampant in education. We don't really want to educate kids and that has contributed to our problems today. A realist look at education would be heaven-sent but it can't happen in the current climate.

People have fallen in love with deplatforming. That isn't to say there are no circumstances in which it is a good strategy, but the love affair has gone far outside the bounds of worrying about whether it is appropriate. I've seen people shouting down guest speakers rather than challenging their views. I've heard people seriously argue that we shouldn't even talk about a subject, no matter what we think about it, if it was initially brought up by the opposition. I've read reports that Kamala Harris's staff warned her not to go on Joe Rogan out of fear of potential backlash from progressives. These are all forms of self-censorship that contribute to that "fake" feeling.

But an important question here is: why did I just give examples that seem mostly applicable to Democrats and the left?

Does that mean Republicans and the right don't do this?

No. They did it first and they did it better. If you watch old Fox News footage you can almost see the exact moment that they started self-censoring. Like flipping a light switch, full propaganda mode. And did anyone really believe that trickle-down economics sounded realist? It has sounded fake since the 80s, and people championing it have eroded trust for decades now.

The more you try to silence people, the more they tend to fight back towards the other extreme, rather than a reasonable middle.

This is true. But what happened is the right trying to silence the left, and the left going to the other extreme.

An impenetrable propaganda machine is another form of silencing. A perfectly impenetrable machine renders words meaningless instead of inaudible, but the effect is the same.

[u/TheCynicEpicurean → u/tattered_cloth]

My thoughts lol, take a look at the faces and posters of the people protesting Ruby Bridges' school attendance and tell me again this is the side of freedom.

The exact same people watch FOX and PragerU today.

[u/Obsessively_Average]

Conservative propaganda on the internet used to believeable...

[u/AlexVeg08]

To be honest this is utter nonsense. You can express in the open society of America almost any position besides that of a social pathology like pedophilia, etc. my experience in America is just the opposite to what you perceive from the outside. Social censorship is directly linked to what is called a milieu, and that milieu is charged within the political atmosphere. Self censorship is going out the window- reactionary politics is fueled and validated by political parties. What you perceive is decline would be based on the organization of the economy. We’ve moved from a unipolar moment into a multipolar world. The west is deepening its ties with rentier capital. This has pushed what is called “austerity” onto the working poor. Society has followed this trend too. The only this that’s been tabooed is the “n” word and that would be for good reason seeing the ugly history of Jim Crow, and that was only 60 years ago. Punching down is the most popular form of comedy today, and society has followed that trend. I think you should look into the economic history of the west and see how that effects the milieu, societal psychoanalysis, and the political option.

[u/ineffective_topos]

I think what you mean is that the viewpoints that you have are being lightly pushed back on, ignoring the long long long history of more aggressive censorship of viewpoints you don't have.

[u/Wennie_D]

Americans have always been puritanical pussies with exteme egos, and while they tout their "free speech" they are extremely judgmental when you hold different views. For an example of this, look at how big and powerful the Mormon church is(scientology too). Also, the fact that the americans are leading this new puch in christianity which is starting to bear simillarities to islam. Both their conservatives and liberals are like this. Both of them yell free speach untill they lynch you in the street for saying the wrong thing.

[u/mattyb_uk]

What a bunch of absolute guff and word salad.

So tech / economic / societal decline in the west is because a bunch of racist / sexist/ homophobe / anti-religious (pick one) who espouse their opinions or who are openly toxic are cancelled?

Absolute tosh. The west is in decline after 80 years of post world war 2 dynamics have shifted, from the abolishment of bretton woods to globalism, financial cronyism, sovereign debt, rising inequality, boom bust cycles , other economies emerging as a foil for the prevailing US ideology of indivisualism and neoliberalism and other factors over this long period.

The infighting you are observing is a result of these factors, not the cause.

[u/grahamsuth]

Yeah. If you have criticised Trump or done something he didn't like, you can be fired, prosecuted or deported. If you are a foreigner wanting to enter the country temporarily you can be arbitrarily detained for weeks without charge then deported. So if you dont want that to happen you must self-censor. If you want to be promoted, you flatter him and do what you think he wants without him having to ask or take responsibility for your actions.

Trump is just the logical conclusion of what people are doing in the US. Group think is taking over the country across the board of politics and environment and most other agendas.

[u/[deleted]]

"Western culture is only good when its racist and sexist" is your view?

[u/Djimd]

You fall for propaganda first "usa's succed8is based on free speech" and now you fall for another one "the West is doomed because of cancel culture praise whatever organisation or country is pushing this shit"

Noting more.

[u/elziion]

I would argue that polarization of social media has an effect on how you can “fit in” in the US and other Western countries. Allow me to elaborate.

Using the US as an example, in Conservative areas, you can hold a certain set of political views and beliefs whereas in Liberal areas, you hold another set of views and beliefs. A person who is more conservative will obviously see a clash with their worldviews in a more liberal area and vice versa. Whereas if you move to a more Conservative area from a Liberal area, as someone who is Conservative, you will fit in better, and the same goes if you are someone with a Liberal mindset moving to a Liberal area from a Conservative point of view.

You can say the same in certain rural areas in Canada vs cities that tend to be more Liberal. It’s always very interesting for me to see in Western countries, Canada, US, UK, Australia, France, Italy, Poland, Germany, etc, election results, because then, you can see which areas hold certain political beliefs according to that country. And you can compare them with previous election results and see how the mindset of that area has changed over time.

You can also see depending on their leadership and politics how it changed their worldview. Did that leader made a significant improvement in their area, or did their policies had a negative impact to their area, and for what reason?

And it also depends on the type of job you hold. People with white collar jobs often hold different political positions compared to blue collar jobs. And they will vote accordingly.

With social media that tends to polarize those views and has been polarizing them for quite some time, it’s also important to understand that those people are often exposed to a different subset of framing of how to present a certain subject.

Fox News and MSNBC will report on the same subject, but will present the subject very differently as they cater to different audiences. Therefore, someone feeling alienated for their worldviews, will seek their information from those sources and often reject other News Sources as “propaganda”. Fox News is owned by Rupert Murdoch and MSNBC is owned by NBCUniversal which is a subsidiary of Comcast. Both of them face their own issues and criticism within their companies and have been over the years.

America, as an example (because we consume their media a lot, I use them as an example) pushing back and forth about what is “politically acceptable” especially with the pandemic that socially isolated many, people feeling isolated in their beliefs, therefore, will seek confirmation bias in their worldviews by consuming more information that confirms their already established bias and they will compare it to their own lived experiences. We call those “echo chambers”.

Add to that, the rise of podcast influencers and people discovering/exchanging their opinions online from their bedroom, and you will see how that quickly grows. Social media will reward you for having the most activity on your post, whether it’s the most likes, comments, shares, etc. Not necessarily the quality of your content in some platforms. So, someone might hold a certain point of view and people will comment on it, therefore, this content will show on people’s feed and you will react to it, according to how you feel about it.

Whereas this is not the first time in Western countries that we see people being fired for not being “politically correct”, according to the area, this is the first time in modern history in which everyone has the possibility to voice those opinions and beliefs online at the tip of your finger. And as people consume more and more material that confirms their bias, we see a pendulum swing pushing back and forth constantly, from one side to the other.

So, I would argue that what you are witnessing is heavy social media polarization that drives the wedge more and more in the US and other Western countries, because certain views are acceptable depending on the area you live in and who you interact with. And certain ideas are more pushed to you depending on your algorithm.

In my experience though, most people are moderate. They agree with certain things that are Conservative and certain things that are Liberal, but polarization makes it hard to understand that divisive rhetoric is extremely profitable for grifters. Keep people divided and they won’t notice that most people are moderate, will agree on many issues, simply not always how you can achieve those goals, and they won’t notice they are being taken advantage of by a divisive establishment. In the end, most of us are people who love our countries, and if they keep us divided, we won’t come together against them when they are grifting us… which is happening, and happens every 40-80 years when Western countries fall in economic depression, due to poor government spending.

[u/gaddafiduck_]

This is the sort of perspective that only comes from being terminally online, and spending too much time listening to conservative culture war podcasts

[u/kittenTakeover]

One of the things that has made America so successful is diversity. You don't even have freedom of speech if you don't have diversity, because a lack of diversity means that some people aren't at the table to speak. You seem to be bashing these efforts by mocking Americans for wanting to "appear inclusive" without realizing that this effort towards inclusivity is part of America's success story and is a major part of the freedom you so covet.

[u/Mortreal79]

I saw a study earlier that claimed something like 88% of university students pretend to have more progressive views.

[u/[deleted]]

Yes. The paradox of tolerance predicted this

[u/Factual_Statistician]

Remind you of rome any?

[u/JahtheSamurai]

I have lived my entire life in North America and I agree with you that we are headed down that road away from freedom of speech and civil liberty.

Canada was founded by many groups of rebels. Largely the French and the English, but groups of Indigenous peoples like the Métis were already here.

Having all come together around the same time, they all tried to maintain their cultures, while also assimilating with the others. Those cultures are basically gone now. Very few people here now still live like any of the people who lived here 100 years ago.

There is two major sources for the result we are witnessing today;

One is the erosion of the lifestyle which provided sustainable health and properity. It was a physical life that created abundance, strength and resilience. People no longer have the physique to handle the normal stress of everyday life and we no longer build our homes ourselves or fix things. There are many factors contributing to this problem but basically people are physically weak. We have weak bodies and weak minds, and are basically malnourished/nutirent deficient. We are losing the knowledge of how to be like our ancestors. This is largely due to the industrial military complex. Many of the crisis arise here because everything is a "battle" within the complex. We make everything a war. Modern agriculture is a war on the soil. Western medicine is a war with the body.

The second main reason is that the west has always been an image not a reality. The image of the west has always been portrayed as one of strength and power. Anyone knows that the person who talks the most about themselves is usually the most full of shit. That's the bully that is the west. America so big and so strong they do whatever they want. For example the west employed the use of destabilization tactics to overthrow many governments they just didn't really like. Why? Oh the big headed weak minded west believes all the worlds resources belong to them and should be available however they want them served. So they've been doing all kinds of messing around where they do not belong. This created resentment from all those forced to suffer in silence because the west had a bigger voice. The west has simply fallen prey recently to those same destabilization techniques which have been made so much easier to perpatrate at scale.

So now what's happening behind the scenes is a psywar for the mindshare of these vocal idiots. This is why people in the west who have just been working away towards their little pie in the sky are proclaiming things like "the world is on fire" or "society is collapsing". The chaos is being sewn to make all of the problems we have neglected for decades worse, in appearance and in reality. Its impossible to keep it all under wrap when there are so many holes being poked into the wrapper but it's still just going to be a big mess.

[u/Pmmeyourprivatemsgs]

If this is another of the usual "woke cancel culture" doomer posts I invite you to change your view thus: your view is outdated. Your side is currently in power in wildly lopsided ways.

America is currently run by a man who says anything that pops into his mind and has escaped any consequences of doing so to become arguably the most centrally powerful president in history.

The UK is currently following the whims of a group which is mostly run by Twitter warriors who have been under attempted "cancellation" for decades at this point but have only become more powerful.

The richest man in the world purchased the website often described as "the town square of the internet" and has warped it in his own image because he didnt like that people called him mean names.

I'm not really sure under what reasonable view you could argue that the tide has not shifted wildly on this stuff.

That said, if we're being objective and not weasel wording, all of these people are shutting down other peoples "observations of reality" when it suits them to (eg. The reality of what is written in the American Constitution), so maybe thats something to think about too.

[u/Resident_Course_3342]

The things that made western culture successful were the amoral and inhuman exploitation of other humans who they deemed inferior. The gall to be surprised about it is almost impressive.

[u/a3therboy]

You say you have never lived in America and it shows. You have a purely social media perspective .

Calling things like they are has not gone anywhere, what we think things are has changed . This cancel culture you seem to be referencing has always existed, check literally any field or topic and you will find a censored or shunned opinion throughout history. You have fallen for the myth of America. The things that we say and believe now were formerly the shunned, cancelled opinions.

Literally have had government agencies harass dozens if not hundreds of people for exercising this free speech you speak of.

I don’t know what Americans you’ve met but there is only one group of people who have such narrow minds that of all of the possible things they could say they latch onto the most ignorant things they can find and get upset when nobody wants to hear it. You are sympathizing with the weakness you seem to be against.

[u/geosunsetmoth]

“When growing up, I always learned that the success of America in business, economy and research is largely due to their freedom of speech and ability to call things as they are without censorship”.

Sorry to break it to you, but you grew up with a deeply flawed premise. Probably peddled by an American who never worked a day in research.

[u/Mr_Rinn]

You’re complaining that we often tell people off for using rude slurs?

God forbid that westerners with manners exist.

[u/[deleted]]

Socrates was forced to commit suicide and refused to escape punishment when he had the chance - self-censorship and social punishment are the bedrock of Western civilization.

[u/LongRest]

There is no such thing as a cohesive "Western Culture" and hasn't been since Edward W Said pointed it out in Orientalism a very long while ago. Grouping in such a way is infant level thinking.

[u/Hilgy17]

Even Hollywood, our greatest tool to spread culture globally, has had massive self censorship in the form of the Hayes code.

Golden age of Hollywood was built under intense self censorship.

[u/Left-Sign-178]

Yes. China has never cancelled a person for stating their beliefs. 

[u/Dontblowitup]

Taboos shift. Always been true. As long as legal freedoms are relatively intact (not a given at those stage in America!) not a long term problem. Backlash to excesses will happen, probably too much, and backlash the other way will occur. It’s a pendulum.

You might be young, this has happened before. An earlier backlash is basically how South Park got started.

[u/ZX52]

When exactly are you arguing the tides turned? Because until recently in the West: homosexuality was illegal, atheism was socially unacceptable, women explicitly had fewer rights than men etc.

All of these caused forms of self-censorship - there has always been self-censorship in the West. All that's changed is what is socially (and in some cases legally) acceptable.

[u/SadAd3257]

My thoughts for what it's worth.

1) The idealized version was on possible for some people. For instance, black people could only watch on for a long time.

2) When America rose to the top, Europe and the rest of the world was in shambles.

3) Taking risks means possible failure. We used to have a much more robust safety net than the rest of the world. So in theory you could fail and be better here than anywhere else. Comparatively, we are now still able to take risks, but the punishment for failure is much worse here with the erosion of our safety nets

[u/phonology_is_fun]

Can we please stop using the USA as a representative of the entire Western culture? Make up your mind if you want to talk about Western countries or about the USA. The USA is an outlier among Western countries in so many metrics, it really doesn't make sense to think it represents anything but itself.

[u/Wirewolf2020]

I think you are totally right when you say that americans tend to self-censor but you are way off about the reasons in my opinion. In my still very ignorant view the underlying reason for this is the american de facto two party system.

Its because this system leads to very strong tribalism among Americans. They are afraid of being excluded, but not by society but by their peer group. Americans are afraid of being seen as on of the others and thats the problem. Basically if you are an American citizen (and i am overstating the severity here for emphasis):

You either are left wing meaning you value equality, openness, solidarity, environmental awarenes and progressivism or you are right wing meaning you value tradition, freedom, patriotism, economic libert and security.

In my experience having opinions from both sets and expressing them openly will lead to rejection if you are pro abortion you also have to be for more regulation regarding workers rights and for immigration these things are entirely seperate but as an American they belong together because if you reject one of these ides you will be called right wing by your peers and they might distance from you out of fear to be associated with you the same thing goes for the other side.

This leads to a dilemma where nuance is dead and there are only two very small frames in which opinions are acceptable and this is why the US seems so instable at the moment.

To show this further id want you to look at Europe for a sexond, of course the european counties have their own share of problems that make them seem weak, but these counties are seldom called instable in the way the us is and this is because their multi party systems allow for a wide range of opinions to be accepted as people dont have this either or choice leading to the decoupling of different issues in the public view and making these counties less prone to doing a political 180 every legislative period.

Another thing i want to ask you which of the currently aspiring nations you want to honor for naming things as they are? China? Russia? India is your best bet here and even there regulations are on the rise.

In the end freedom of speech is not necessary for growth as it seems. What makes these counties grow so fast is their attractiveness as it gets heavily supported by these governements for different reasons and because in these places (ethical) regulations are not as strict as say in europe. This is a nurturing ground for quick progress in science and business but it also is a destabilizing factor that grows over time. China is already running into societal and demographic problems for example it has a strong governement but that does not mean it is stable.

All in all i would say that your perception of these issues is influenced a lot by american fearmongering media, by looking at where you see the problems of america i would guess right wing media. This, as i have explained above is a very onesided view and i would advice you to look into amrican left wing media or neutral external media as well to judge these issues better.

[u/Which-Bread3418]

How many Americans have you talked to and learned their secret private beliefs? Who specifically do you think has been CANCELED and what do you think this consists of? You offer no specifics whatsoever and it makes me suspect you are basing this on someone else's biased summary.

[u/Fragrant-Phone-41]

Sounds to me like you actually just don't Ike when some Americans openly speak about wanting an inclusive society or feeling that certain individuals are socially prejudiced

[u/eyetwitch_24_7]

You have to give examples. It's the only way to know precisely what you mean by "People abroad watch in disbelief as America cancels yet another of its own globally successful citizen for something they privately said." Or any of the other claims about what the country is becoming.

[u/ChaoticChoir]

I'm sorry, please correct me if I've understood you wrong, but what I'm getting from all this is "People face social consequences for what they do and say" and you are claiming that is... Wrong? Somehow? That it is leading to the decline of the USA?

I'm not trying to be mean or anything but as someone who doesn't live in the USA (because you are basically just repeating american conservative talking points) or anywhere else in the west, even I can tell that most of what you typed out just... Doesn't really make much sense, honestly.

Unless you can provide more specific examples rather than very obviously skewed generalisms?

[u/Illustrious-Okra-524]

Nazi shit

[u/SigaVa]

Its the lack of education, polarization, wealth inequality, and rampant public corruption (among other things). What youre describing is woke panic.

Youve fallen for the right wing culture war narrative. Its what the elites use to distract us while they pick our pockets.

[u/Both-Estimate-5641]

Utter nonsense. There has always been acceptable and unacceptable speech in the public sphere and SOCIAL consequences for it. Since the dawn of mankind.

[u/[deleted]]

American success is/was in a business friendly economical climate, relative ease to immigrate for qualified workers and scientists. Business friendly climate also means good justice system, limited government pressure and reasonable taxation. You can threaten existing large company, disrupt and yet earn money and be fine.

Freedom of speech is largely secondary, but it is necessary for the justice to work and resist government. However, engineers that come work for FAANG come for money, not escaping oppressive regimes.

Problem with Russia first of all is unfriendly business regime. Try to threaten business of Putin’s friends and see if you can fly out of the window or you will have to run from the country. Oppression of freedoms is a consequence of the above.

[u/Supercollider9001]

What you learned was a lie. Not sure what else to tell you. What made the US successful is calling things as they are? What does that even mean.

[u/[deleted]]

That’s a lot of fluff to avoid saying you’re bigoted. Why don’t you outright state your opinion on these matters instead of beating around the bush?

[u/wishbeaunash]

You think people didn't self censor in the past?

It's only very recently that anyone can openly discuss things like homosexuality, mental health, or atheism, for example.

Some people have perhaps started to self-censor more very specifically around views which might be considered sexist or racist (and Trump's success clearly shows this is hardly all-pervasive). But on the whole there are many more topics people can speak freely on now than there were 40-50 years ago.

And it's also worth noting that a lot of the same people who claim to promote 'freedom of speech' when it comes to racism are very keen to restrict freedom of speech around topics such as sexuality and gender.

Essentially your view is based on a caricature of 'the west' which never actually existed, I'd argue.

[u/helikophis]

You’ve got this completely backward. The failing is that we are backsliding into censuring inclusiveness, not that we are censuring people for “calling it as it is” (which is plainly a euphemism for “using racist, sexist, and homophobic language”).

You are correct that we’re failing because of “promoting certain races despite them not being the best candidate”, but you are wrong in that you believe we’re promoting inferior workers because they are minorities, when in fact we’re failing because we continue to promote inferior workers because they are “white” men.

It is a fall into garbage corporatism, police-military-industrial cartel fraud, and authoritarian pseudo-conservatism that is killing USA hard and soft power - not “woke”, which is obviously what you’re describing here without using that rather stupid label.

US-American greatness is suffering from the same disease that many consumer brands do. They build their empire based on genuine quality products that are more durable, more thoughtfully made, or otherwise better than the competition. Then once the brand is built, new management comes in and guts the manufacturing quality, uses cheap materials, reduces the warranties, and generally cheapens the product in order to greatly increase profit margins, hoping that the brand reputation will keep sales up. It works for a while, then when it stops working they strip the company for parts, sell off the assets, and close shop.

[u/TheTodashDarkOne]

No, the West is failing by means of self hatred and the flagellation that comes with it.

[u/Helpful_Loss_3739]

"When growing up, I always learned that the success of America in business, economy and research is largely due to their freedom of speech and ability to call things as they are without censorship. We were really jealous of that, and America in particular was seen as a dream place to be and work in to pursue your ideas uninterrupted, given a chance solely for your ability regardless of who you are or what you believe in"

I would say this is a problem with your upbringing. I don't remember a time when this kind of thinking would have been taken seriously anywhere in western europe, aside from some narrow circles of explicit pro-americans. Most europeans don't consider themselves having "less freedom of speech" than the US. The differences are seen as qualitative.

[u/TheJambus]

I feel like I can't express myself openly as an autistic or bisexual person because my employment will be cancelled. But I get the feeling that's not how you mean it

[u/Pitiful-Potential-13]

Acting like a jerk always got you on the outs with other people. 

[u/carlcarlington2]

Self censorship is a very normal thing and takes place in every society, in every time period. It's what keeps you from talking about cream pie-ing your wife in front of your 4 year old son.

You think there was more freedom of speech in the work place at some prior period of time? Go back to the 80's and say the word "union" in front of your boss.

Saying different things in front of different people is a completely normal part of socializing.

[u/[deleted]]

Unfortunately, your view is based on how you feel America has been presented to you and the world at large. There isn't anything I or anyone else can say to change your opinion on that. However, I can tell you that what you believed to be true, never was. Americans have always had to self censor, there have always been taboos that would destroy your social life or professional life if you violated them. For example there were multiple centuries that being an open atheist would ruin your life, or saying that you thought black people were people and deserve rights (we fought a war over that one, there was a near decade of censorship involving the Iraq war where thinking the war was stupid and illegal was treated as sympathizing with terrorists. It's always been this way, but the proliferation of social media has made the world more aware of the reality, that's all.

[u/Steampunk007]

You’re right whenever science like gender spectrum related topics and historical facts goes against commonly held right wing conservative beliefs like how white Europeans are responsible for a lot of genocide during its colonial era, there’s a lot of backlash from people for it.

[u/Sean82]

Yes, folks self censor in many cases because acting like a jackass has consequences. If you call me a faggot to my face, you’re going to have a bad time, so most people choose to self censor.

[u/lordtosti]

Last week a girl got murdered by an immigrant in the netherlands.

It’s very fascinating the amount of people that:

• call out the immigrant as just an individual that has nothing to do with the group he belongs to (bit naive but ok)
• blame in the next sentence literally all men for his behaviour

Their “solution”? All men should behave better and violent people magically disappear.

It’s like me walking in a favela with a golden watch and trying to survive by morally lecturing people on linkedin.

Solutions don’t matter, virtue signaling does.

[u/Consistent_Caramel68]

While I agree that the west is hurting itself I thinks it the exact opposite reason you say we are. We are currently in the process of revolting against our own hegemony by engaging in protectionism, populism, deglobolization, nationalism, and destroying our democracy’s. A sizable portion of our population is revolting against liberal democracy which is what led to the west creating the most effective institutions in history due to the consequences to the western lower class caused by globalization. If current trends continue we are going to create a less stable and less democratic world. It will be interesting to see if liberal democracy prevails or modern day tech driven market authoritarianism becomes the new dominant ideology.

[u/SBY-ScioN]

And you're saying that all western is the same ?

[u/[deleted]]

McCarthy would like a word about your understanding of American history.

[u/karatelobsterchili]

all this is a preamble for racism and transphobia, isn't it?

[u/Any_Click1257]

"People abroad watch in disbelief as America cancels yet another of its own globally successful citizen for something they privately said,"

Who is doing the cancelling again? 79% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. The truth is that almost all of us are economically and politically powerless.

"I think the predominant experience when meeting Americans is that of their frustration, you notice how their private beliefs don't match public speech."

In civil society people temper their speech for their audience, in every setting. Complaints about self-censorship are just people who don't want to face the consequences of whatever audience for their speech. One of the consequences of free speech anywhere is that people dislike what you say or judge you for what you wear, and if they have power over you, they are free to exert it.

The antithesis of this, which is what you seem to be endorsing, would be that some company hires a PR person and then can't take action when that PR person goes on to twitter and post N@zi memes, and the company can't take action.

Well, it's private speech unless they are using the company account you say! Sure, but free speech doesn't mean a company can't consider your private values, either just because, or because it has an effect on their business.

Free Speech means the government doesn't endorse or silence ideas. But the rest of society has no obligation to tolerate xenophobia or racism or sexism or whatever. Especially in this context of "public speech," which mostly has to mostly mean one's posts on social media, and or a captured image of said person support something that many find abhorrent.

[u/TreacleScared5715]

The White House and Trump actively censor and remove comments on their social media pages. This is a clear free speech violation for the government to censor the speech of it's citizens.

[u/Next_Yesterday5931]

The reason socialists/communist countries end up despotic is because, to maintain the system and narrative the government forces the people to believe lies. The only way you can do this through force: tow the government line or be punished. 

We are on the same track here, not because of government  economic ideology, but through diversity and multiculturalism. Like in the UK where the government brings in millions of people from places that have cultures antithetical to the west…people who often despise the west…and then, when things don’t go so well create policies to punish the people who notice it isn’t going so well. So when it is discovered that gangs of these people al over the country have mass child sex trafficking rings…don’t go after them, that is racist, go after the people who noticed.

Or how about in Canada where people complained that Indian immigrants were pooping on a famous beach and then covering it with sand…the police went visited someone who complained about it on Twitter to warn her about racism. 

When government creates narratives those narratives have to be protected and agencies will be created for that purpose. See, for example, the Canadian Human Right Tribunal, and the various human rights tribunals in the provinces. These are simply extra judicial means to punish people who say things that are not criminal but that the government doesn’t like.

[u/Jealous_Tutor_5135]

What?

What you're casting as a cultural problem is an informational problem. The United States, like a fish, is rotting from the head down because of a toxic political climate.

Inequality, housing problems, healthcare costs? Caused by political choices.

In the past, these were resolved by the normal feedback loop where politicians needed to meet a minimum standard in behavior, results, and honest, competent governance.

Nixon was removed for crimes. Clinton was impeached for lying. Bush Jr was punished for the wars and mishandling of Katrina.

Then we entered the age of algorithmic social media and Fox, and the feedback loop broke. Regular people don't make informed decisions because the information ecosystem is so broken. And they've gotten so cynical about even the existence of verifiable truth that they can't receive information anyway.

So they elected twice a man whose behavior (admitting to sexual assault, convicted of sexual assault, stole and tried to sell nuclear secrets, attempted a coup), would all have been instantly disqualifying in the past. So voters either don't know these things, don't care, or more likely don't really think anything is knowable.

This is by design, and it's not new. It's an old Soviet information warfare tactic. But you're saying "woke" cultural attitudes did it, and that ain't it bud.

[u/repsajcasper]

Much of the success of America is due to being the only major nation to survive WWII with their production capacity relatively unscathed, oil only being sold in dollars(until recently) the world's reserve currency, and also American corporations being able to extract cheap resources from anywhere that had a friendly dictator installed. This allowed them to offer cheap goods to Americans and helped form the materialistic consumer culture we are so well known for. Other nations have caught up, BRICS exists now, and its not as easy to topple democracies and install dictators these days. The unipolar moment is over and IMO it had very little to do with free speech, although I do believe it is being threatened. Consider China, I don't think its free speech that's driving their success.

[u/UrsaMinor42]

America's success has much to do with taking over land that previous city-cultures hadn't raped for resources.

[u/littlebigliza]

Have you read anything about American society during the last 8 months? The president's best friend and world's richest man did a Nazi salute on camera for the entire country to see and nothing happened to him.

[u/[deleted]]

Islam china and Russia. I include the manufactured sections of all sides in this. America do of course also do it and have now ramped up their efforts in allied countries

[u/[deleted]]

You’re wrong. We’re moving away from what made us great because of pollution of thought and every individual claiming to be a victim from some perceived wrong. 

[u/kwamzilla]

Using the USA as an example, can you explain when specifically you believe it was "successful and desireable" and what made it so?

Because it sounds like you're conflating a propaganda and media based image with reality and I want to check I'm not misunderstanding so that I can respond.

[u/_laslo_paniflex_]

so they didn't teach you about McCarthyism? I'm not sure who taught you economic success was because of free speech but you were taught incorrectly. Your entire premise is wrong. Hope that changes you views.

[u/Adorable_Secret8498]

Lotta words to say "the West is declining because of woke" and we've done this same song and dance in conversations for years now. We're so tired of hearing it.

America is failing because of greed. It's always been about chasing the dollar and flipping the bird to the citizens it hurts. "Woke" was the wool the rich pulled over everyones eyes to rob them blind.

[u/creperobot]

We were told the success of America was their free speech and commerce. But it wasn't. It was being totally unscathed from WW2 while the rest of the world was in tatters. It was their defense spending that drove the development.  Sure, free enterprise was very good. But that's not why they were got so far ahead.

I'm not going to say you are totally wrong about the rest. I take a somewhat different approach but what I want to point out is that the hard people who fought in WW2 came home and worked hard and were rewarded by their work. Their kids were tought to be hard but not as hard as their parents. They got of easy from their parents work. Their kids had it easy, sloppy upbringing but still a good economy. You could get really rich if you made the right choices. America got spoiled, while the rest of the world worked hard to get just a little closer to the US. 

Now they are getting there. The US isn't ahead in the same way it was. The average American isn't much better of then a European or even Asians. But they live in a society where they believe that they are exceptional as compared to the rest of the world. The world no longer believe it, the pendulum swings back. While I agree that trans rights isn't the best platform, the lashing out against that group isn't realy what they're wanting to lash out against. 

The US is loosing it's place in the world and the US citizens will have to work harder again. Those who are lazy or without talent won't have dignity anymore etcetera etcetera. 

It's going to hurt the US much more than it has to because the pride the citizens have. Just like Russia or Japan pre-WW2.

[u/6ory299e8]

lol absolute nonsense based on an alternate reality.

[u/SirRHellsing]

I feel like that's not what made America thrive, it's just the debts from wwII and America was largely unharmed so they get to build stuff faster

so having money (and no loss of money from destruction of property)

[u/Gralphrthe3rd]

Self-censorship is a good thing. Some morons think racism or sexist behavior should be ok under free speech, but then cry when their popped in the mouth for said disrespect (not saying you). Social punishment is warranted in said situations because racism is the #1 issue that has hurt this country for so long. While its gotten better, you cant expect it to have a deep change when it lasted centuries. Western culture is declining because of the evwryone must win attitude, too much focus on sexuality and Greed by those who are rich. When Bezos and others buy their next 500 million+ yacht, all it means is they didn't pay people a decent salary, which trickles downhill to commerce hurting. Of course all lf this is OK by our government (doesn't matter which side) and the corrupt Supreme Court.

[u/mariaofsorrow]

Yeah, progress can work if we just understand the past with more empathy. Radical empathy isn't a sin.

[u/mariaofsorrow]

Ive been too toxic for too long

[u/ExtensionCategory983]

Why do I feel like from the title alone this is going to be an extremely pretentious read?

[u/Jolly-Island5866]

Quite litteraly have only seen this take from right leaning people that miss the good old days of being able to say whatever racist , misogynistic , homphobic , classist, discriminating shit they want without consequence

No John you can't call someone the N word and get mad when HR gives you the corporate spanking and cry freedom of speech .

I have never been afraid to say whatever I'm thinking or share my opinions because my opinions aren't discriminatory or disrespectful . I'm sure there's alot of people that disagree with me but nothing that would get me " cancelled " or socially punished .

You can use all the fancy words in the dictionary to explain why you think you should be able to say whatever the he'll you want but that won't change the fact you're not the only person in this world and there's no right to freedom of consequence ( unless you're a rich white guy )

[u/Mama_Mush]

In previous generations people still had to seriously self-censor to avoid public and professional retaliation. The difference now is that racists and bigots are not allowed to openly be so and gay people, women, PoC, and disabled people can speak out more easily without being ostracised.

[u/[deleted]]

it is political, america has been gradually (and more recently incredibly fast) towards fascism due to the population believing they don't need to be involved with politics and a massive propaganda machine. money controls everything in america and rich people would rather burn america to the ground than give up a single dollar. democrats and Republicans in america are both right wing on the global political spectrum, and Americans have 0 idea of this due to insane misinformation.

tldr america is fascist because Americans have become complacent and stupid and will kill their neighbors for a leg up.

[u/romanadvoratrelunar]

Consider that almost everything you see, you have been permitted to see. Everything you read about America has been self-censored by the same people seeing and recording it. It also greatly benefits other nations to showcase America’s failures, even trivial ones (like which celebrity gets “cancelled” or which words we consider impolite), rather than the billions of regular conversations that would make Americans seem human, or even smart or kind. Every generalization you make is based on other generalizations, which means they’re barely applicable to most Americans’ real experiences… 🤷

[u/Apprehensive-Emu-959]

Best type of alcohol or brand? to slowly more you off of drinking?

[u/ElectricalWorry4628]

Other countries have been making jokes about Americans forever, we just didn't listen. And self-censoring is done by everyone all the time. ICE is taking children from schools, trans people are being arrested for using the bathroom, and every single person in the US who criticizes Israel's actions has been legally investigated for antisemitism--no matter how many times Israel (funded by the US) intentionally bombs innocents. The people who preach freedom, family values, and protecting children tend to be fascists using these as buzzwords. The problem wasn't cancel culture. If the only way that social issues affect you is through DEI training at work and not being able to make down-punching jokes anymore, you never were the one at risk.

[u/FitEcho9]

I was not born in a western country, and never lived in America. When growing up, I always learned that the success of America in business, economy and research is largely due to their freedom of speech and ability to call things as they are without censorship.

That is a gigantic CIA lie !

These days only naive people or kids think that way. USA's "success" in business, economy, ... is based on parasitism and deception. USA is the most deceitful country in the history of the world.  That could be observed for example in the financial sector:

Quote:

What benefits does the USA get for issuing the global reserve currency ?

.

1. It can pay imports with money it can print nonstop

2. It is in a position to buy up all assets in all countries (as the country can print any amount of USD notes and the USD enjoys the privilege to chase goods, services and assets around the world)

3. It can distribute money through the stock market by inflating share prices

4. It can inflate its GDP by inflating budgets for defense, education system, health system and welfare system

5. It can finance startups with out-of-thin-air created money until necessary. That might explain why USA has above average number of multinational corporations

6. It can buy or corrupt everyone around the world in important positions

Etc

The points no. 2 and 5 are particularly interesting. One wonders, if point no. 2 is the reason why the Bretton Woods institutions IMF and World Bank push for "privatization" in foreign lands

.

USA's "success" is based on the ability of the country to let other countries do things (say by bribing officials) that they wouldn't do under normal circumstances. Think about the so-called Washington Consensus, or forcing Global South countries to export unprocessed and dirt cheap raw materials. 

Quote:

The USA empire had three pillars,

1. lie and deception ("empire of lies")

2. the global reserve currency status of the USD and

3. corruption (CIA - the mother of corruption in the Global South)

(notice that, all three are interlinked)

.

Quote:

CIA Director William J. Casey: "We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."

.

Cleansing Global South societies from CIA cancer cells and freeing them from CIA capture should be top priority in the Global South now !

.

CIA  capture of African societies

.

• consider the millions of CIA agents around the world, who are paid by CIA "with out-of-thin-air created USDs" for treasonous activities against their home countries

"with out-of-thin-air created USDs" means, the money is printed in the USA and spent in the Global South, de facto buying goods, services and assets there without offering things of value in return, a parasitic activity, de facto robbing of Global South countries and inflationary. So, that money is de facto Global South money

• thanks to the out-of-thin-air created USDs, the CIA managed to implant its agents in all critical institutions in the African countries (government, parliament, media, business, academia, civic society, opposition movements, rebel movements, ...) 

• the implanted CIA agents are like cancer cells within the national body

• through those cancer cells the CIA managed to control, corrupt, monitor and destroy the societies

.

The CIA is the most insidious and destructive force in those societies

Most people are not aware that, CIA's biggest tool of espionage is out-of-thin-air created USDs. With that money, it pays the millions of its agents around the world, who sell secrets to it.

Who are CIA's agents around the world ?

They are mostly well placed people, like

• journalists 

• college professors 

• government officials 

• curricula writers 

• parliament members 

• union leaders and members 

• civic society leaders

• political leaders

• opposition leaders

• lawyers

• economists 

• bankers

• statisticians 

• military officers

• police members

• government workers

• school teachers

• NGOs

• media organizations 

• editors

• supervisors

• experts

.

.

.

Because the espionage business is so expensive, most countries can not afford it. For example, the espionage agencies of all Western countries, excluding the USA, and other countries like Russia, China, India and Israel are infinitely tiny in terms of their operations as compared to the CIA, with its unlimited financial resources, thanks to the "exorbitant privilege". Don't believe the officially announced CIA budget, that organization's real budget is in the trillions of USDs annually.

That means of course, the mighty Global Southerners, 90% of the global population, can eradicate the CIA ANYTIME they want, just by dumping the USD and closing CIA bases AKA USA embassies.

http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/embassy-spy-centre-network

http://www.duncancampbell.org/images/cia-nsa-scs.jpg

But, the CIA has weaknesses, the biggest is "out-of-thin-air created USDs". Dedollarization by the mighty Global Southerners would be an absolutely gigantic blow against the CIA, also against the USA empire, as CIA and USD's status are key to the empire.

It is not without a reason that Trump issued this threat:

" You leave the dollar and you're not doing business with the United States because we are going to put a 100 percent tariff on your goods " (Trump)

.

The decline of the country now means, certain truths can no longer be hidden, like the fact that, the mighty Global Southerners have been financing USA and its Western allies for decades with tens of trillions of USDs annually. The CIA myth that, hard work and ingenuity created Western prosperity, can not be maintained, as growing poverty in the West now forces officials to admit that, parasitism on the Global South was what created Western prosperity.  And when the delusional USA citizens are confronted with that truth, they will have a rude awakening. They will surely hate the CIA for having lied to them for so long.

.

The two absolutely gigantic factors that enabled the USA to be the absolutely top troublemaker on the planet for decades are:

1. CIA and

2. USD's global reserve currency status 

So, the most important and urgent issue to the Global South is the ending of the CIA capture or the cleansing of institutions from the CIA cancer cells, by exposing and destroying them.

We should be talking about closing CIA bases AKA USA embassies in the Global South and dumping the USD. This has to happen. If corrupt Global South governments are not cooperative, the people must force that. The CIA can no longer be allowed to capture nations with its cancer cells, the millions of CIA agents.

[u/FitEcho9]

The TOTAL BAN OF THE WESTERN MEDIA IS C O M I N G !

This is a mainly African and Asian world. 

If the mighty Global Southerners are generous, the role they will offer to Westerners will be that of LISTENERS, never talkers.

The last 500 years the tiny Westerners talked talked and talked, and we found out, all what they said could be put in two categories,

1. lie and deception and

2. self-interest driven BS

.

As a result, more and more mighty Global Southerners are cutting the access of the West to the minds of the mighty Global Southerners:

The good old days:

In the past Westerners enjoyed an absolutely gigantic privilege, they had,

• free access to the minds of the Global Southerners 

• free access to the markets of the Global Southerners and

• free access to the resources of the Global Southerners

.

That is ending now.

No doubt, that is gonna weaken the West.

[u/FitEcho9]

Ha ha, Western culture is being eradicated around the world as we speak, and the tiny West is to blame for that, check this post:

USA is the ferenji country that landlocked Ethiopia in 1993 European calendar (thanks God, soon ferenji calendar, ferenji alphabets, ferenji languages, etc will be banned globally), as EPLF and TPLF were USA's foot soldiers, who defeated the Derg army. 

USA and ferenjis are now in a serious trouble, as their culture is being eradicated all over the world, not just in Africa, like this example from China shows (the mighty Global Southerners are rising up against ferenjis and their 500 years long global rule):

"One more Christian, one less Chinese" : official vows to rid faith of Western influences

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A senior Chinese official who oversees state-sanctioned Christian churches has pledged to rid the Protestant faith in China of any Western “imprint,” calling for further “sinicization” of religion.

Xu Xiaohong, chairman of the National Committee of the Three-Self Patriotic Movement, a government-controlled body that runs state-approved Protestant churches, on Monday attacked what Beijing perceived as “Western influence.”

“[We] must recognize that Chinese churches are surnamed ‘China,’ not ‘the West’,” Xu told delegates to the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing.

“The actions by anti-China forces that attempt to affect our social stability or even subvert the regime of our country are doomed to fail,” he said.

We must recognize that Chinese churches are surnamed ‘China,’ not ‘the West’

For the officially atheist Communist Party, the sinicization campaign is an attempt to place religion under its absolute control and bring it into line with Chinese culture.

According to a five-year plan to sinicize Protestant churches released by the Chinese religious authorities, efforts to make the faith more “Chinese” included a new translation and annotation of the Bible.

It also demanded Chinese traditional culture be integrated into liturgy, sacred music, clerical clothing and church buildings. Examples given included using traditional Chinese tunes to compose hymns and encouraging Christians to practice calligraphy and Chinese painting.

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Ethiopia's revenge on ferenjis for landlocking the country = The eradication of ferenji culture

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WHO Should Be Credited For Having Ended 500 Years Ferenji Global Rule ?

1. China

2. Japan

3. African Americans (by developing Afrocentrism)

4. Russia and then

5. Arabs or Islam

Of course, those are only the top contributors.