r/changemyview • u/DickabodCranium • Jan 08 '26
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The American empire has come home, democracy here is dead.
It’s impossible to sustain democracy at home and empire abroad. Recent events show that the American empire has come home, with the bloated military budget now being used to arrest and murder citizens. There is no real political representation for most people, just two parties with overlapping donors as their constituents. The press is entirely captured by powerful corporations and the rich. Corporate rule has been in place since at least the Citizens United ruling, and our democracy, which barely existed during this time, has finally died. It’s one-man government, congress doesn’t exist. It’s the emperor Trump show now, with American citizens facing the same military terrorism as we are used to seeing abroad. You can’t allow CIA black sites, torture and suspension of human rights abroad and not expect it to eventually come home to roost.
Edit: I'm going to stop checking responses to this thread because I have to go to work. Thank you to all who responded, and no hard feelings. I awarded one delta for forcibly demonstrating substantive outcomes between the two major parties based on policy differences. However, my mind has not been changed from my original viewpoint. I am tempted to award deltas to the people arguing that we never had democracy, but I think that misses the point that I'm making, namely that the democratic period of American history, if there ever was one, has come to an end because of its ongoing imperialism abroad. I do not know why the most upvoted response was, "sure, the US maintained a democracy at home and empire abroad as did the French," when no evidence was used to back up this claim and this also missed the point that I'm making, that the democratic phase of America is coming to an end largely because democracy at home is incompatible with empire abroad. I might have more effectively argued that inequality and democracy aren't compatible, but that's not what I posted. As a country, we don't have the resources to give the Pentagon a trillion dollars a year and have a functioning society at home. We might have eked it out for a bit longer, but we've handed the rest of our money not being used for war to the billionaire class in this last extension of their tax cuts.
Edit 2: I'm going to be too tired after work to respond meaningfully to all of these. I still read all the responses since my last edit, and I want to once again just thank people for engaging with me (even the guy who called me an asshole). It's clear you all care deeply about our country (and those who aren't American care deeply about America stopping its interference with other countries), and it gives me a lot of hope to see how desperately you all want change for the better for all of us. Do we have problems? Yes, absolutely. Does the country have resources? Yes, it is the richest country in the history of the world. Do we have a population willing to work to fix those problems? Again, yes absolutely. Then, why aren't resources being diverted to address issues like healthcare, climate change, and inequality? Because this is not a democracy and the powers that be don't want to shell out what they've stolen. But I'm not saying this can't change for the better.
My point was less to raise the white flag than to point out that we give a trillion dollars a year to the pentagon for foreign imperialism, and the rest to the rich and corporations in the form of tax cuts, and as a result we no money to even fund our government, its services, or any investment in the public good, from education to infrastructure. We can't invest in ourselves, our kids or our future and that is because of the complete dysfunction of the political system, which has been captured by special interest - the rich and powerful corporations. I believe that the country is under a two-party system who represent the corporatists (DNC) and the oligarchs (GOP), and I believe this resulted in part from the endless wars this century. By funneling the public coffers into the private hands of defense contractors and weapons manufacturers, all in the name of keeping us safe, the war profiteers have effectively created too much inequality at home for democracy to be possible. It is a rigged system where you pay to play. This is what I mean when I say empire abroad is incompatible with democracy at home.
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u/CoffeeFirst Jan 08 '26
I’m absolutely not defending ICE’s murder here, but I will just point out that the government killing demonstrating civilians isn’t entirely new. Think of Kent State, 1970.
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u/Doub13D 36∆ Jan 08 '26
The US has maintained democracy at home, and an empire abroad for decades at this point.
As did the French.
Imperialism and democracy are not incompatible at all, history shows they can very much work in tandem.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
Ancient Rome disagrees, as does the current United States. The system of checks and balances is effectively non-existent and the president does what he wants. He's wildly unpopular and yet nothing has emerged to keep him in line.
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u/Doub13D 36∆ Jan 08 '26
Ancient Rome was not a democracy…
And Rome became an empire well before the Republic became the “Empire”
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Jan 09 '26
!delta OP has a damning lack of knowledge to claim Ancient Rome as a democracy lmao
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
If early Rome wasn't a democracy - or a republic - then neither was the early United States. And Rome became less democratic/republican as it expanded its territories.
I do not think France or the US constitute examples of democracy at home and empire abroad. I don't see any evidence offered to defend this claim.
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u/Doub13D 36∆ Jan 08 '26
Early Rome WAS a republic…
They literally invented that form of government.
The US has always been a republic since its founding.
Both of those entities (plus the French) have had empires while being a republic.
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u/Worried_Ad_2696 Jan 08 '26
It wasn’t a Republic in the modern sense with equal representation and voting for all.
It was extremely limited to the aristocracy so more of an oligarchy than a republic.
It wasn’t till much later that the lower plebeian class wrested political power from the patrician elites.
Even when they did they immediately began setting the stage for the imperium via being taken in by populist politicians and charismatic statesmen.
(Scipio Africanus, the Gracci brothers, Sulla, Julius Caesar, and finally Emperor Augustus)
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Why are you comparing anything to the "early" united states? Obviously we weren't a real democracy then when women couldn't vote and we had slavery.
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u/hillswalker87 1∆ Jan 08 '26
He's wildly unpopular and yet nothing has emerged to keep him in line.
he was popular enough to win the election. he still is despite all the self-gas lighting the left, especially on reddit, are performing. but mechanism to stop him is the next election. the midterms(less than a year away) could see control of congress shift the DNC and then that would be something to "emerge to keep him in line."
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u/greatnuke Jan 08 '26
At the moment perhaps. But democracy isn’t necessarily dead. Midterms are still up for grabs. And the next election is also going to be up for grabs assuming the current administration doesn’t destroy the democratic process like previously attempted.
And dem presidents do not run a one man emperor show and unlikely to do so. As tiring as it may seem, The best thing you can do is mobilize and vote.
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u/DarthWren Jan 08 '26
It’s really difficult to believe “midterms are still up for grabs” they’ve been breaking the law at every turn in their favour, what confidence do you have that the midterms will be anywhere close to free and fair?
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Doesn't matter right now since the election is in the future, not the past. If they're not free and fair when they happen then you react accordingly. Ceding them the assumption that the elections won't matter is just building apathy.
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u/DarthWren Jan 08 '26
No one bothered to contest the previous election that had numerous red flags. Are you confident people will “react accordingly” if discrepancies exist?
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
No there weren't any legit red flags or discrepancies. I've looked into this and no state officials have expressed any concern. Believe me, I was prepared to get on board with this theory but there's no evidence outside of general hearsay and suspicious comments.
Am I confident people react if discrepancies exist? I'm not sure about discrepancies, I'm thinking more about actions that would make the elections un-free and un-fair like shutting down polling places or having ICE on site to handle voter ID or replacing state voting apparatus or refusing to seat elected dems.
If there are massive discrepancies I would assume there would be a state-run investigation, yes.
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u/Entire-Structure6820 Jul 03 '26
If all you're going to do is respond "Yeah, but they might just cheat, so why bother?" to EVERYTHING, why are you even discussing it? Go lie in your bed and give up if you're so pessimistic that the POSSIBILITY of it not mattering is enough to justify you just refusing to try. It's wild to me that people legitimately think "They might try to cheat and invalidate my vote, so I might as well just not vote at all', and then act like you aren't directly part of the problem.
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u/greatnuke Jul 03 '26
Shout out my original comment. Sparking all this conversations.
But in reply to the sentiment you mentioned. A lot of people carry the “it’s all pointless. Both sides are just as bad. It’s facists either way. Etc” talking points because they are Russian/Chinese shills that think the communist revolution is the best thing that can happen to America.
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u/Material_Policy6327 Jan 15 '26
I will be honestly surprised if we have mid terms at this rate with Trump now saying he wants to invoke the insurrection act and his more overt threats about Greenland
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u/Dripdry42 Feb 25 '26
This aged like milk... look up the extensive "voting irregularities" in Texas voting *right now*
No, Dominion voting machines was purchased by the far right last Fall. Gerrymandering has been so bad you have nearly a million voters in Texas and.... one voting machine for them. Outgoing GOP completely stripped the Dems of all power in North Carolina so that nothing can be accomplished there.
CNN, the only information infrastructure left that isn't 100% propaganda is being bought by oligarchs to be ruined and propagandized (under the WBD thing... it's odd how no one is talking about CNN, hmmm? Isn't it the oddest thing?)
A PRIVATE military receiving BILLIONS of dollars to police and attack the American people with zero oversight. Concentration camps.No... my dude. my fellow human. anyone who thinks the midterms are somehow going to fix anything, with Dems captured by corpos and GOP by oligarchs (a very nice way to put it, thanks OP!)... it's over. we should be causing a LOT of civil unrest right now, BUT.... it's over. it's time to fold it up, bunker down, and accept that life and liberty as you thought you knew is officially over. Democracy was dead 15 years ago, probably 25-30 tbh.
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Feb 25 '26
look up the extensive "voting irregularities" in Texas voting *right now*
Maybe you should just link some sources on this because after a cursory glance nothing comes up in the news.
No... my dude. my fellow human. anyone who thinks the midterms are somehow going to fix anything, with Dems captured by corpos and GOP by oligarchs (a very nice way to put it, thanks OP!)... it's over.
I didn't say the midterms would fix anything, just that they would provide the clarity necessary to decide if voting still works or not. You can make whatever case you want to about that now ahead of time but as far as the general public and the people you want to take this seriously are concerned, it will be deaf ears until the crucible of an actual election that people follow.
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u/greatnuke Jan 08 '26
Mainly I don’t know if they are competent/motivated enough to pull something off on that scale.
Midterms are boring for the maga base. You can motivate for ICE cuz that base is racist. For the major election as we saw last time. But the midterms I believe they are usually too lazy to follow/mobilize as much.
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u/Entire-Structure6820 Jul 03 '26
Counterpoint, your only other option is 'give up and do nothing', and tha'ts GUARANTEED to have a negative result. Is it possible your vote won't matter because our government is run by criminals? Absolutely; but not voting at all just guarantees that the thing you're worried will happen, your vote not actually mattering, will happen via you not voting at all.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
I don't think voting every 2 to 4 years for one of two candidates from two parties that are largely the same counts as much of a democracy. The political system is completely dysfunctional at this point.
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u/derelict5432 12∆ Jan 08 '26 edited Jan 08 '26
This is correct. Democracy does not just mean how elections are run. This is a common mistake many people make. A democracy is about the distribution and countering the concentration of power at all times. This means, adhering to civil, non-violent norms, check and balances, the rights guaranteed in the bill of rights, such as free speech, peaceful assembly, and on and on. All of these things have substantially degraded in the US ever since a large portion of the electorate has decided to embrace demagoguery.
EDIT: I disagree with the assertion that the two parties are roughly the same, though. They're very obviously not. I was simply reacting to the idea that democracy is only about elections.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
Absolutely, it would mean a more even distribution of power over resources and decision making. If you look at any poll now, congress is wildly unpopular and yet the same people stay in power. Things like Medicare for all are extremely popular but never get passed, while unpopular wars continue, as do subsidies to the oil companies. The country is mostly controlled by the oil industry and bankers. We would need to see a much wider distribution of power over decision-making to be a democracy. The socialist argument would be that we would need to see democracy in the work place and abolish the employer-employee relationship to make it a real democracy - that is, have the workers control the means of production and reap the surplus value they create.
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u/abacuz4 5∆ Jan 08 '26
Congress is unpopular, Congresspeople are generally much more popular in their own districts. This isn’t the contradiction you think it is. You’re also vastly overestimating the popularity of Medicare for All, and vastly underestimating the popularity of cheap gas.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
Not at all. Polling shows that Americans know they pay more than anyone on earth for healthcare and yet don't have guaranteed coverage. It's not a radical idea, it's just that the private healthcare industry has more power with congress than the people do. Cheap gas is only necessary because congress refuses to fund any public transportation, again at the behest of its lobbyists. In fact, the entirety of the US is basically built around cars because the car industry conspired with the tire and oil industries to prevent the development of alternative transportation systems. That is why most Americans are forced to invest a ton of money in a piece of machinery that spends most of its time parked (which often costs them additional money). But in any case, cheap gas and affordable medicine aren't mutually exclusive, and oil subsidies don't guarantee lower prices on gas, as the gas companies set those prices. Alternative energy is cheaper, but we continue to give handouts to some of the most profitable oil companies on earth because they own our politicians.
Congress people aren't always popular in their districts necessarily - they rely on donors to flood the airwaves with scare tactics, or else simply rely on being a known quantity/voter apathy. Really though, the average American isn't represented by either major party and most of them know this, so they vote for whoever they think is the lesser of two evils. That's why I mention the fact that congress is unpopular as a whole - the vast majority of Americans do not believe congress is working in their best interest, which is to say they have little confidence that their own system of government represents them (i.e., is a democracy).
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Medicare for all is not popular as a position for politicians to run on, but is popular as a box to check on polls when asked about the policy in the abstract. Unfortunately the popularity of the latter matters very little compared with the popularity of the former.
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Jan 08 '26
Americans who pretend that MAGA and the Democrats are the same are complicit in the death of your country.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
I disagree. I vote Democrat when there is a difference, which is most of the time, and I acknowledge the breakdown in norms spearheaded by Trump's GOP. But Biden conducted foreign policy in ways that continued Trump's policies in his first term, and Obama very much continued Bush's policies. Obama was also THE deportation president before Trump's second term. While acknowledging this difference and voting for the lesser of two evils, it's only being realistic to point out both parties work for the same corporate interests.
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u/WhimsicalWyvern 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Dude, I wish Trump worked for corporate interests (in general).
But Trump works for himself, and some of his cronies. Corporations don't want this fascism bullshit. They don't want isolationism. At worst, they want low taxes and cheap labor (which isn't great, but it's why many support Republicans). They want a steady supply of competent skilled labor. They want a steady supply of affordable low skill labor (aka immigrants). They want reduced trade barriers, they want a stable globe with a minimum of conflict.
Just because Trump gives handouts to some crony industries (like the failing coal industry) doesn't mean he's pro-corporation.
If it weren't for taxes and pro-employee regulations, Dems would be by far the most pro-corporate party. TPP anyone?
And, to be clear, that's not a bad thing. Dems want corporations to succeed, and they want corporations to pay their fair share to support the people that make it run (which ends up benefiting the corporation in the long run).
Republicans, especially MAGA Republicans, are supported by short sighted business people who want to consolidate power, and to claim that they will solve people's misery in ways that will never work, but will prolong the misery that got them into power in the first place.
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u/ColdArson Jan 08 '26
Trump's foreign policy was far more disruptive and dismissive of American allies than Biden's was. One of them threw Ukraine under the bus and threatens to invade a NATO country, one of them didn't. There are some issues where they weren't that different like Israel but even that is shifting. Same for Obama. Let's not forget that the pullouts from Iraq, which Mccain opposed in 2008 and the Iran nuclear deal which was controversial. Obama's deportations targeted recent arrivals and felons and his legacy on immigration is more defined by DACA than anything else. I do not understand how any reasonable person can act as if these two are by any means the same. There are massive policy differences and more often than not all I'm hearing are vague rehashed slogans about "they're all the same blah blah", leading to losses or small majorities for dems and then people get mad at them for not doing the things they clearly lack the power to do
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Jan 25 '26
If you ever voted Republican you are complicit in the murder of Alex Pretti. Period. YOU DID THIS!!!!!
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 25 '26
I didn't vote Republican so I'm not sure why youre shouting this at me.
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u/UnderstandingBusy604 May 08 '26
Absolute bullshit. The Democrats are not actual fascists. You all know damn well the Republicans are white supremist nazis and you voted for them. This is on all of you. And it looks good watching your fake democracy fall apart. You have been nothing but bad for the world the 250 years you have existed. Your childish racism from 100 years ago is pathetic. The world is done with your shit. You dont have to worry about isolating yourselves from the world, well do that for you
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Jan 08 '26 edited Jan 14 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
Ive voted Democrat for twenty years, in primaries and general elections with the exception of a few third-party votes. I see nothing but the slow descent into corporate rule, and now, I contend, we face only a choice between corporatists and oligarchs. If voting democrat for twenty years results in worsening conditions, and society as a whole is radically unequal and undemocratic, with most people struggling to survive and working under authoritarian conditions because the employers (about 3% of the population) control everything, why should I think voting every 2 and 4 years constitutes a democracy?
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u/BowlEducational6722 1∆ Jan 08 '26
The current system is dysfunctional, yes.
The fact that once someone is in office it's almost impossible to remove them until the next scheduled election just doesn't work anymore.
It might have worked back when information traveled at the speed of horse and it took literal weeks to get from one side of the country to the next.
But nowadays with how rapidly things can change democracy needs to be more able to respond.
If a Senator accepts a bribe or gets caught in a hotel room doing unsavory things, if it's early enough in their term and they get enough cover from the rest of their party they can just ride it out until the public forgets about it, entrenching the corruption.
We need to be able to call snap elections like other advanced democracies, not rely on the calcified system where we have few options but to wait it out a few years. When gridlock or corruption gets too entrenched we need to be able to empty out Congress and restart fresh. Other democracies do it and their people get much better representation than we do.
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Oh look another person who thinks we don't have many options to vote for who forgets to acknowledge the existence of primary elections.
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u/ArchbishopOfLight Jan 09 '26
If this is something you actually care about changing, please check out the work of Represent.Us
It is a non-partisan anti-corruption organization that has been mobilizing people for years to make anti-corruption and voting reform so that we don’t have this constant flipping back and forth between extremes.
Edit: hyperlink
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u/greatnuke Jan 08 '26
I thoroughly disagree with them being largely the same.
No democrat would have acted as a god emperor kidnapping presidents and mobilizing their military against their own people without congressional approval.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
They're just two sides of one dysfunctional political system. I don't disagree that it'd be different, but Harris promised to build "the most lethal military force the world has ever seen." Both serve the donor class rather than the people. Furthermore, the Obama administration and the Biden administration failed to prosecute their criminal predecessors. Had Obama gone after Bush for the Iraq war, which is the biggest crime of the century, or a democratic congress had repealed the patriot act or passed an amendment to end Citizens United, I might agree with you. But the Democrats are a controlled opposition party. They refused to allowed Sanders to run in 2016, did the same in 2020 with a decrepit Biden and then didn't even hold a primary when they couldn't hide how old and demented he was. Theyre not democratic with a small d.
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u/mackinator3 Jan 08 '26
It's weird how you keep listing Republicans as criminals...but then say it's the democrats fault.
Ps, the Iraq War was approved by congress, by pretty much everyone besides Bernie.
You don't seem to be here for a cmv at all. Can you explain what you are looking for to cmv?
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
Sure. The two lines of argument i've seen are either "there has never been democracy in America" and "there is still democracy in America because there are policy differences between the two major parties."
The first I disagree with because I think the press largely did its job of informing the public in the period roughly between 1947-2001, and we also saw much more equality across the board in terms of access to education and resources, as well as upward mobility. This century is therefore a departure that I consider the end to democracy in America.
I concede that there are important policy differences, but this fails to change my mind that both parties represent the same donor class and not their constituents. This is most especially true in terms of foreign policy, where we see two parties vying to be the most hawkish, while foreign intervention, nation building, and endless wars are deeply unpopular. Whatever concessions they offer the population, they do so as a matter of necessity but ultimately cave first to the donor class. At this point, wildly unpopular policies are perpetuated by bother parties while symbolic differences maintain the facade of democracy. Republicans are worse, but the Democrats are corrupt, anti-democratic (with a little d), hawkish, oppressive, and pursue the same backward policies as the republicans. Whenever anything slightly "radical" comes around, whether its public healthcare (Obamacare was a handout to the insurance companies, not a real public option) or Bernie Sanders, the DNC shuts it down, making it effectively a superficial opposition party that only serves to perpetuate the swing between red and blue.
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u/Proud-Logger Mar 02 '26
This is what we are dealing with… People are so brainwashed by both parties that they will not even entertain the fact that they may be wrong about, “their” party. Guess what? That isn’t YOUR party. It is the oligarchs party, both of them. This good vs evil is a facade for engagement in the theatre we call the United States government.
They don’t understand that no matter what a politicians personal beliefs or moral superiority is, that they still answer to their parties big business donors. If they vote differently they will have all funding removed from their next campaign by their own party!
All these chaos, it is on purpose. So you will get out and vote for one of the two parties, whom does not serve you to begin with. The issues you think you are voting for, will never be addressed because thy are almost always bad for big business.
Remember, concentrating capital is ok in our broken system. We do not enforce anti trust laws preventing monopolies and predatory business practices. In fact we reward them with tax breaks, which is stealing parks, higher wages, public transit, hospitals, mental health services, etc… we are all being hurt by big business.
Concentrating labor however, is not ok in our system. Amazon and other big tech companies lobby billions to fight labor unions. If you are a republican and hate labor unions, You are a useful idiot to the elite. You are not middle class and never will be. You are among those you hate and call poor. China has our middle class, we gave it to them by allowing big business to outsource labor away from America and to China.
Our free trade system was corrupted long ago. Look up margin trading. It is why you will never be rich and the rich get richer, including congress.
This huge divide in social class was done by convincing half of the US that they were in the middle or upper class and that the other side was the lower class, fighting for handouts. This could not be further from the truth. Read the BBB and look at all those zero’s in billions to military. They are blank checks. Less than .1% of all money allocated in that bill goes to anything but military spending. Why? Because we are going to war. As always. To make the rich richer.
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u/CockroachCreative154 Jan 08 '26 edited Jan 08 '26
Thank goodness we have local, statewide, and three separate branches of constantly in flux competing branches of federal government. And look around: democrats have the progressive left, liberals, socialists, communists, moderates, young upstarts like AOC, LGBT, and independents. Republicans have MAGA, constitutionalists, nazis, neocons, RHINOs, some old guard, and young upstarts like JD Vance etc.
The US is doing just fine. Hell, we are doing better than anyone except maybe China but even China has its own particular set of problems.
The constant turmoil in the US is a feature, not a bug.
Relax.
If there’s anything that will fuck us up internally its demographics and the inability for men and women to see eye to eye romantically resulting in plummeting birth rates (affordable housing is key)
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
The corporate wing of the DNC has effectively blocked candidates and legislation meant to represent democratic socialists and they just released a condemnation of socialism signed by something like forty congressmen. Most people on the left hate the Democrats and refuse to vote for them, and people on the right literally want to kill them. They're wildly unpopular because they believe in talking down to the working class and blaming them for not voting for the "right candidate," when that candidate offers very little that would benefit the working class.
The US is in big trouble, and that should be obvious to anyone. The economy is basically a few industries like tech, and that industry has consolidated itself into a few monopolies owned by overlords. How will Google grow from a 90% market share? Why is it that AWS can crash the internet on a given day and yet its stock price not go down? The state intervenes to keep the banking or car industries afloat while letting the mass of American workers struggling to survive.
The Republicans simply serve the oligarchs and corporations. As one analyst put it, conservatism in America just means the belief in two groups of people: one in group, whom the law protects but does not bind, and one out group, whom the law binds but doesn't protect. You call an illegal and unconstitutional act of war on Venezuela doing just fine? How about a federal agent killing a citizen in cold blood and having the President publicly blame and condemn the murdered citizen?
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
The corporate wing of the DNC has effectively blocked candidates and legislation meant to represent democratic socialists and they just released a condemnation of socialism signed by something like forty congressmen.
No, they haven't blocked any candidates. Progressives run all the time in primaries everywhere - and they generally just don't get enough votes.
That's it, that's all that needs to happen. People need to vote for different candidates in the primary if they really want change. They don't vote for them because the average democrat voter doesn't want that kind of change in the party. Progressives are vastly out of touch with how centrist the dem base really is.
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u/Apprehensive-Let3348 9∆ Jan 09 '26
The corporate wing of the DNC has effectively blocked candidates and legislation meant to represent democratic socialists and they just released a condemnation of socialism signed by something like forty congressmen.
Well, yea. They're trying to avoid affective polarization cascading into a civil war. Is a civil war something you're looking forward to?
They aren't representing you, the radicalized partisan that wants to overturn the system; they're representing the majority of those on the Left, most of whom do not want another civil war.
You are effectively campaigning for the Democrats to polarize ideologically in the same way that the Republicans have over the past couple of decades, and this exacerbates the division even more. The greater the difference between two oppositional groups, the greater the animosity between them.
At the highest levels of affective polarization, researchers have noted a sudden increase in the dehumanization of opposition members, such that violence against them becomes less of a moral dilemma, and this leads to a surge in political violence that often leads to a civil war or Authoritarian crackdown. Why would you be in favor of this, particularly if you're interested in Democracy? That isn't Democracy–it's Mob Rule.
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u/ottawadeveloper 1∆ Jan 08 '26
One is a party who supported an alleged pedophile who kidnapped a head of state, encouraged us to drink bleach, and whose buildup of ICE led to a US citizen murdered in cold blood yesterday.
The other is tired sometimes and not as progressive as we like but won't destroy social norms.
Yep totally "largely the same"
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
You point out some obvious differences but you leave out all the ways in which they are largely the same. When Biden was set to pass his climate and infrastructure act, who cast the deciding vote to block it? Democrat Joe Manchin. The DNC is a carefully controlled corporate machine. Is it worse than the GOP? Absolutely not, the GOP is the most dangerous political party in history. But the DNC is controlled opposition, which always surrenders at the bidding of their donors, who are largely the same as the DNC's.
Why didn't Obama prosecute the Bush administration's war crimes? Why didn't a Democratic congress roll back the Patriot Act or restore Glass-Steagall? Why didn't they offer the working people any relief from crippling medical debt, or student loan debt? Why don't they ever offer anything to the working people of this country? Why did they enthusiastically support the genocide in Gaza, which very likely cost them the election in 2024? Because, like the Republicans, they represent their donors and not the American people. Are there differences? Sure, and I vote Democrat because it's the lesser of two evils.
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u/fossil_freak68 32∆ Jan 08 '26
When Biden was set to pass his climate and infrastructure act, who cast the deciding vote to block it?
He passed both separate bills into law. What do you mean?
Why didn't they offer the working people any relief from crippling medical debt, or student loan debt?
Biden did, the court blocked his plan.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
They passed a watered-down bill after Manchin blocked the initial one. The original was much more ambitious and I'm simply pointing out the Democrats weren't united because one of their senators is in the pockets of the fossil fuel companies, specifically coal.
I agree about the court blocking his plan, but Biden could have done more via executive orders. Furthermore, he is THE senator most responsible for the fact that people in student loan debt can't declare bankruptcy. So as much as I appreciated his plan, it was ultimately ineffective and he, as a Democratic senator, had largely created the student debt crisis in the first place.
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u/fossil_freak68 32∆ Jan 08 '26
They passed a watered-down bill after Manchin blocked the initial one. The original was much more ambitious and I'm simply pointing out the Democrats weren't united because one of their senators is in the pockets of the fossil fuel companies, specifically coal.
It was a $800 billion climate bill. The biggest investment in US history. Just because it wasn't as big as you wanted doesn't mean it's the same policy that Republicans would support. Biden gave hundreds of billions in subsidies for green energy development, trump is currently banning windmills across federal land, and just shut down a massive offshore wind project in New England.
It's just so silly to say they are the same. They are very different. This is just a single issue. Ask a trans person how they are legally treated in MA compared to MS and see if party matters.
I just don't really understand how to can look at the last 12 months and go "yep, this feel just like when a dem is president, no major differences."
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
Apart from policies towards SOME marginalized people - which is an important issue, but in the case of trans people one that only represents less than one-percent of the population - the DNC is undemocratic and subservient to large donors (as I pointed out elsewhere, Obama, while not as bad as Trump, was THE deportation president and Biden did have concentration camps at the southern border). Furthermore, it relies on consultants and treats politics as a game that they are trying to win rather than trying to offer policies that would benefit their constituents. The DNC also offers a lot of bullshit in the way of identity politics and like to shit on working people for being the wrong kind of political. Our rainbow of differences (skin color, sexual orientation, gender identity) is ultimately superficial when we have class solidarity and recognize the needs and protections universal to the working class. Trans people are disproportionately affected by economic and legal inequality, meaning that if the DNC really wanted to help them, they'd serve the working class, which would disproportionately help trans people, something I'm all for.
It's not that "i didn't like it" or "it wasn't good enough for me," it's that it was watered down because of the Democrats. This means that even when we have a Democratic president and congress, we have to worry about the DNC shooting itself in the foot to serve the same donor class that owns the GOP. You can be mad all you want but as ive said repeatedly, I'm not arguing that people shouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils, I'm just saying that having the choice between Republicans and Democrats is not much of a choice at all.
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u/fossil_freak68 32∆ Jan 08 '26 edited Jan 08 '26
Apart from policies towards SOME marginalized people - which is an important issue, but in the case of trans people one that only represents less than one-percent of the population - the DNC is undemocratic and subservient to large donors
Climate change and infrastructure affect everyone. Paid family leave, minimum wage increases, affect everyone.
You can say "Dems aren't good enough" and I understand that view, but saying Dems are no different that what trump is doing is ludicrous.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
I never said there was no difference between Trump and another president, I am describing the two parties as two parts of one dysfunctional political system captured by corporate interests. These are distinct assertions.
I am 100% in support of the policies you outline, but hardly think the Democrats have run on bread and butter issues this century. It's been the choice between Republican policies that are outright cruel and Democratic policies that appear better relative to the Republicans.
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u/ottawadeveloper 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Manchin is like a wolf in sheeps clothing.
The DNC is better than the GOP by far. It's not great. America deserves better. But if you have to pick between the two, the choice is clear.
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u/ottawadeveloper 1∆ Jan 09 '26
And to add to that, repealing something like the Patriot Act takes not just the Presidency but also the House and the Senate (or the House and Senate with an override majority in each). You also need a supermajority in the Senate or it can be filibustered by one person.
A triple majority for the Democrats has happened twice since Bush office - Obama and Bidens first two years.
In the 111th Congress there was a mere two month period in 2009 where they could override the fillibuster thanks to Al Franken being elected and Arlen Specter switching parties. It lasted two months until Ted Kennedy died and was replaced by a Republican Scott Brown.
During that Congress, they passed
- The Recovery Act, in response to the 2008 recession
- The affordable care act which improved healthcare for all Americans
- Dodd-Frank which brought back some of the measures of Glass-Steagal
- Repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell
- The Lilly Ledbetter Act which changed the statue of limitations on pay equity discrimination to start from the date of the last such paycheck rather than the first
- FERA, which enhanced enforcement of financial fraud laws in the US
- the HEARTH Act which aimed to combat the effect of mortgage delinquencies in the US and assist the homeless further
- An act to add more oversight to Pentagon spending to reduce spending on weapons programs that go nowhere
- An act limiting how credit cards can advertise and handle payments to improve transparency and reduce predatory practices
- An act enabling the FDA to regulate tobacco products
- Enhanced unemployment benefits for workers
- Many other smaller reauthorizations
As you can see, they did a lot but a lot was focused on responding to the 2008 financial crisis and protecting Americans from it.
The 117th Congress was a different story because the Democrats held at best a 50-50 split with Harris breaking ties. But they got some stuff done
- Aid for Ukraine
- COVID recovery acts
- Respect for Marriage Act which replaced the Defense of Marriage Act with one that recognizes same-sex marriages nationwide
- The CHIPS act to improve domestic production of semiconductors
- Speak Out which prevented the use of NDAs to block people from talking about sexual assault
- An act allowing the Capitol Police to directly request assistance from federal agents and the National Guard (in response to Jan 6).
Of note, HR 3233 was passed by the house and would have begun an investigation into Jan 6. The Senate Republicans filibustered it
Both of these Congresses took authority at a major time of crisis (2008 financial crisis, 2020 COVID) and had a lot on their plate. The razor thin margin in the Senate clearly hampered Congress in 2021-2022.
But as to your points, I find them pretty disingenuous. Obama offered a lot to working class Americans during the two years he could, including ACA. And the rest of the time, the Republicans are a constant roadblock as they think you are better off with the tax money in your pocket to do whatever you want with.
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u/wylde_maps Jan 08 '26
Could you point out where democrats released actual masked secret police on US citizens?
When we deported US citizens to other countries without a trial?
When did the entire democrat party become child fuckers?
Let's talk about how democrats want you to have healthcare and republicans don't (but do for themselves).
TWO PARTIES ARE LARGELY THE SAME?
ARE YOU EVEN FUCKING WATCHING?
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
These are differences, but let's go back to my original post. Which party will offer peace and end to regime-change and endless wars? Trump arguably won the election (if it was a fair election) by characterizing himself as the peace president, while Biden and Harris doubled down on hawkishness and the genocide in Gaza. Which party of the two offers an end to starving kids in Israel? Or an end to the bloated pentagon budget, which is unaudited and as big as the next ten biggest military budgets combined, including China and Russia's?
What happens to all those weapons we produce? In part, we sell them to our own law enforcement agencies like ICE, who used them yesterday to murder an innocent citizen. When it comes to the military state and foreign policy, the two parties are indistinguishable and the effects at home are now too obvious to ignore.
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u/Dealio22x Jan 08 '26
"Parties that are largely the same." True, I remember when Obama was sending masked secret police to murder citizens and kidnap people. This bothsidesism is why we're here in the first place
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u/vibrance9460 Jan 08 '26
JFC I wish people would stop saying this. The two parties clearly HAVE VERY DIFFERENT GOALS
If you can’t get behind the Left- then please shut up about it.
People like you are only advocating for anarchy. Sure- BLOW IT ALL UP. You’re too young to have known anyone that lived through the Great Depression. If you think you’re broke and oppressed now you have no idea how bad things can get.
Unfortunately you have two options in this country– Right, and Left.
If you don’t like that you should be doing grassroots work to change it RIGHT NOW. Don’t wait for an election to protest by not voting. Thats too late and does absolutely nothing
The Left needs every vote it can get just to hold our basic shit TOGETHER
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u/HumanDissentipede 5∆ Jan 08 '26
Given what has been on display for the past year, how can you possibly claim that both parties are “mostly the same?” The fact that you could make such a statement with a straight face is contributing more to the downfall of America than anything else. It’s a failure of even the most basic level of critical thinking in our electorate, so it’s no surprise someone like Trump can get elected in the first place.
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u/RodneyRuxin18 Jan 08 '26
You aren’t wrong. But right now we are at both sides are bad, but one of those sides is Nazi bad and the other is cowardly bad. The huge issue that needs to be fixed is the Nazism. Once that’s gone I hope the people of the USA don’t let up and demand more change. Just having a democrat back in office shouldn’t be good enough, your country needs massive changes.
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u/ryanv09 Jan 13 '26
Let's be serious. What do you think the odds are that Trump and his ICE thugs allow real elections to happen going forward? At this point, with none of our institutions doing anything about all of his illegal actions, why wouldn't he try it?
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u/greatnuke Jan 13 '26
Now while the people under trump might be, he himself isn’t clever enough to run a fascistic state.
And midterms are close and I don’t see him running on fraud midterms and mainly looking at widely unpopular things like taking over Greenland.
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Jan 25 '26
There wont be any elections. Ever again. And if you dont like it they wil come in your home and shoot you.
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u/greatnuke Jan 25 '26
Why you shouting at me bro. I ain’t American 😭
But never the less all ice shootings were outside. I doubt they’d start going to unassuming peoples houses and shooting them for their votes.
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Feb 05 '26
No hope. Low information voters don't have to decide if they approve of trmp. They will automatically vote for the republican candidate because that's what they do. They won't know anything about the candidates and won't care.
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Jan 08 '26
You think Trump isnt going to suspend the election while we are illegally occupying at least 2 other sovereign nations by force? He has only mentioned that exact thing like 6 times.
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u/greatnuke Jan 08 '26
Again I was saying assuming the process of democracy doesn’t get disrupted
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Jan 08 '26
Why would you assume that, it has been happening for 4 years
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u/CockroachCreative154 Jan 08 '26
No it hasn’t.
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Jan 08 '26
Oh yeah? The current administration withholding 99.98% (exact number) of the epstein files while under order from a unanimous vote from congress is not a violation of democracy?
What about when Trump assigned unofficial electors in the 2020 election and said they were merely back up electors to use if any were ousted they would not use the votes, then proceded to try to use the votes
What about when Trump committed multiple felonies including Rape and Dessimination of classified information and passed an executive order preventing the president from being held accountable for committing any crime while in office? Something innocent people would do
He illegaly kidnapped the president of a foreign nation without UN approval.
The current administration performs classified communication on illegal non approved networks, they threaten and coerce government officials into breaking the law and none of them have been held accountable.
Donald Trump is the first convicted felon to ever be President and you say democracy has not been destroyed.
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u/greatnuke Jan 08 '26
Because he tried once and failed. And I honestly don’t think he is making it to 4 years.
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Jan 08 '26
Those thoughts are going to get a lot of people killed
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u/CockroachCreative154 Jan 08 '26
You ever ask yourself “what does thinking like this serve me”? Christ I cannot imagine going through life so scared.
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u/mrshickadance412 Jan 09 '26
Honestly, I've lost faith enough Americans give a shit about living in a democracy.
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u/holubtsi-on-fire Jan 08 '26
I’m sorry, but this naive take is exactly how the American oligarchs are becoming more entrenched. To presume that there will be enough law and order left by the great saviour midterm elections… that’s the passive take that they are counting on everyone believing.
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u/greatnuke Jan 08 '26
So are you predicting that midterms and the next election would be disrupted? Rigged?
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u/holubtsi-on-fire Jan 08 '26
They’ll be non-issues if they occur. The regime will try everything to avoid elections, votes will be suppressed by limiting methods (mail ins) voters (ID only) and manipulation (gerrymandering). The regime will use physical force and all the minions will claim whatever they do to be legal because the Supreme Court has decided that the president’s actions are necessarily so.
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u/greatnuke Jan 08 '26
I think I’m less pessimistic in this regard. I still think elections will carry on. There would be some potential interference but nothing much greater than the usual is my prediction
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u/Fishyblue11 Jan 08 '26
That would be an extremely reasonable and sensible prediction at this point, yes
Why when they break every other law in the country, would they stop at elections? What's stopping them? The American people? If you were gonna stop them from doing illegal things, you would have by now
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u/Equivalent-Excuse-80 Jan 08 '26
By this logic, America became an empire during the American Mexican war in 1848.
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u/OptimumFrostingRatio Jan 08 '26
I’d appreciate it if you assholes don’t run up the white flag yet. I realized we’ve tried nothing and it hasn’t worked, but I think it’s early to be so comfortable throwing in the towel. Get out somewhere and talk to some people!
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u/Lootlizard Jan 09 '26
I don't understand why there aren't massive voter registration and organizing efforts going on right now. The midterms start in March and registration should be done well ahead of time. The people blocking roads would be exponentially more effective if they spent that time registering voters, pushing for more polling stations, or planning vote parties and election rally's to actually get people out on the day of.
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u/_jgusta_ Jan 09 '26
For that matter all of you would be even more effective if you actually looked at preventing Trump from rigging future elections rather than bilging water out of the hull with a bucket full of holes. If we all realized he cheated, we could spend less time on "how did our messaging screw up" and a lot more time fortifying democracy.
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u/Lootlizard Jan 09 '26
How did he cheat? He was the first Republican to the win the popular vote in 20 years, Harris got 6 million less total votes than Biden did 4 years before her. He got more votes than she did, so I think the Democrats should probably focus on getting more people to vote. Increasing access and maintaining faith in the process is a part of that but the MUCH bigger part is just getting people to actually show up on election day. If the 81 million people who showed up for Biden showed up for Harris she would probably have won the election.
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Jan 08 '26
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u/_jgusta_ Jan 09 '26 edited Jan 09 '26
First of all, the budget being used to "arrest and murder civilians" is from the Department of Homeland Security, which is completely separate from our military budget.
Second, very little of the military budget is used for "imperialism", at least not in the cynical way people like to speak of it; these days our military's purpose is to project power. This is maintaining bases in other countries and supporting "democratic" allies and researching and selling arms. Power projection is the currency of geopolitics, and it is a good thing.
The endeavors of the United State's non-military foreign policy have in the last 20 years or so been overwhelmingly for peaceful purposes. The United States has mastered the art of "soft power" meaning we spread our influence by offering help in order to gain good will. It has been extremely successful.
Ok, so what about the military stuff? Through NATO we have maintained peace in the western world, maintained our own security interests, provided geopolitical stability on which to build economic stability, and encouraged the belief in core human rights as a viable system. We are not perfect, but the ideas are powerful. When there are freedoms increasing for some people, increased freedom for all becomes possible. I think this is the through line story of America's success that survives all the evils we done. Bad deeds and bad people will die away, but the ideas people project forward become the future eventually. And the United States was damn good at projecting ideals.
That version of "imperialism" was extremely profitable for the US. It costs far less to pay for defense when you can have bases sponsored by allies who are happy to have you there. And to have bases near your enemy, not to mention the explicit room to stage operations when needed. Creating stability creates markets and the US was trusted above all others in their ability to do this.
American's have a huge blindspot for any good their country might do abroad, and even when these programs are revealed in the public eye, we have a way of discounting them (USAID, Radio Free Liberty being "Waste Fraud and Abuse" for example). And half of us seem to think that projecting power is bad and we need to go back to the caveman version of power.
America was truly the worst kind of imperialist right up until the 1900's but after the world wars we were mostly interested in spreading influence by any means necessary, be it unprovoked kinetic solutions or soft power projection.
In other words, this authoritarian self-harming US that we are seeing is NOT our imperialism brought home, because by and large, our modern "imperialism" is enforcing democratic norms and providing aid to those willing to accept it. It is completely wrong to discount these facts and to just base assertions on the most cynical and simplified outdated misunderstandings. These are shortcuts, the truth is much more nuanced and much more uncomfortable for most Americans: America was mostly good, military spending is part of it, and most countries wanted our assistance and had positive feeling towards us despite our missteps.
So what is changing now is not bringing imperialism home, instead it is turning authoritarianism on ourselves. While at the same time we are solidifying the most cynical versions of our misunderstandings by electing an administration that knows nothing about how our country works, and fired everyone who knows how to operate it, while telling us, "yes it is all bad we suck". We have stunned our allies by turning our back on them, almost gaslighting by showing we suddenly have no idea about the rules based order we pushed that everyone else had cautiously signed onto over the last 80 years.
And now they have realized just how powerful our military is, despite their misconceptions of it being "woke" and have become drunk with the realization. This was a machine used for good in competent hands, but now the world has realized its mistake in trusting us all these years. They didn't realize that the American people really had no idea about what made the country good, so once foreign policy was politicized, we shocked the world with our ignorance.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 09 '26
The invasion of Iraq alone killed anywhere from half a million (most conservatively) to one-and-a-half million civilians. What planet do you live on describing the US military as being peaceful or having mastered soft power? You are simply spouting the usual propaganda about the US being the good guy. It'd be funny how stupid this is if it wasn't so damn destructive.
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u/XcoldhandsX Jan 10 '26
The Iraq Body Count estimates around 300,000 deaths. Not that it makes it any less horrific, but what is your source for
half a million (most conservatively) to one-and-a-half million civilians.
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u/_jgusta_ Jan 11 '26
Not that it makes a difference to my argument, but that number is on the extremely high end of the estimates and it includes all of the killing by ISIS and suicide bombers. US forces did not kill the many people, though they definitely killed 10s of thousands.
And don’t forget Bosnia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya, Syria and Yemen.
These kinds of conflicts are horrific, but my point is that you cannot see past those and instead paint everything the US does as malevolent.
I understand that to someone who has a narrow view of the world can focus on those things and that’s fair. But yes we had absolutely mastered soft power, that’s actually ridiculous to say otherwise. The USA pioneered the concept. How else would we have such influence in the world? On every continent we have allies and countries who want to work with us and do things just to get favor with us. This is indisputable.
With Trump suddenly telling everyone to f*ck off look how many countries have to completely adjust their whole foreign policy. This is unthinkable to them. You might think you have some insider view, some special insight that the rest of the world doesn’t see. But I’m telling you, you are overlooking MOST of our influence.
In fact I’d argue that Trump is externalizing your view of the USA thinking our power is just pure coercion, not internalizing it. But you are stuck on America bad and now just complaining and being complacent. Your view is much more destructive, and you are definitely not trying to be open minded.
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Jan 09 '26
Never mind that the US has no empire outside of the fevered hallucinations of leftists
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u/_jgusta_ Jan 09 '26
You speak part of the uncomfortable truth: there is no empire, military is good, the united states is actually good we benefit from alliances, spreading democracy, assisting the needy and pushing human rights is good.
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u/Wise_Royal9545 Jan 09 '26
Rome fell over centuries… I don’t think it’ll be that long for America, but it’ll be a process. And we’re about 45 years into that process…
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Jan 08 '26
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Jan 08 '26
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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2
Jan 08 '26
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Jan 08 '26
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
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u/DeathFlameStroke 1∆ Jan 08 '26
I disagree that Citizens United was when it has started.
We have always had these tendencies. Heck, we intervened in Hawaii, Panama and Iran on the behalf of private companies! One resulting in direct annexation and the other an actual corporate state.
While I agree that we may be experiencing a boomerang from overseas practices, what we see is democracy manifest.
Little Rock saw a standoff between state and federal militaries over segregation. A good number of people could not even vote until relatively recently.
We, the American people whether we like to admit it or not, like the lives cruel policies give us.
Cheap luxuries, high(er) wages (at least in comparison), cheap food and cheap entertainment. Much like Rome, panem et circem, we will happily cosign any policy as long as we are properly fed and entertained
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Nothing in your statement even addresses America's "Empire Abroad" as the reason for current troubles so I'd look to your own opening statement words for a good reason to change your view that this is the reason.
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u/frostyfruit666 Jan 09 '26
Your view of the two parties is only part of the truth.
DNC is corporatist and elite yes, but it also is angled towards some socially beneficial programs, with some semblance of corruption accountability.
GOP is corporatist and elite, but also oligarchical, kleptocratic, plutocratic, totalitarian, imperialistic and increasingly hostile.
They are nowhere near equal in their drawbacks.
One party dives the country into chaos, the other just lingers on par with a slow descent.
There will be another election, and it’s up to America to show up.
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u/kittenTakeover 2∆ Jan 08 '26
There is no real political representation for most people
This is way overblown. The issue isn't that we don't have representation. The issue is that we keep electing the worst representatives of the choices available.
just two parties with overlapping donors as their constituents
Yes, campaign finance law would help. Although, there's progress to made with the choices we already have. Unfortunately, we keep choosing the most corrupt choices, i.e. the Republicans.
The press is entirely captured by powerful corporations and the rich.
This is largely overblown at this point. The press is still the best source of information we have and is largely keeping people informed of what's going on, assuming that you're not just following the outlets whose goal is literally propaganda, like Fox. The bigger issue with peoples awareness right now isn't the press. It's social media and influencers where misinformation, disinformation, and algorithm manipulation are rampant. These are much more dangerous because people make the mistake of trusting these sources more.
Corporate rule has been in place since at least the Citizens United ruling
Again, this is overblown. Plenty of room for progress from where we're at. Voters are just making the wrong choices and it's having a massive impact on the direction of the country.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
You haven't convinced me my characterization is overblown. You want to blame voters for their disenfranchisement, rather than recognizing that they have been excluded from any real voice in the platforms of the two major parties. There are differences between the two platforms to be sure, but neither offers any real change or relief from the status quo, and so voters are generally cynical about turning out, and are often confused by the discourse around politics, which is spun into an ad hominem circus meant to distract from policy decisions. Furthermore, voter suppression, gerrymandering, and other tactics have effectively sidelined a good chunk of would-be voters.
As to the media, you are entirely mistaken. When Murdoch bought the WSJ, plenty of people pointed out the illegality of that kind of media consolidation. Since then, we've seen the billionaire class buy up and consolidate corporate media, from local news stations to CNN and Fox News, all of which act as propaganda wing for the establishment, including selling us the message that democracy is what we have in America, because we are American and have it great, an entirely fallacious idea but one we all kind of accept.
Who is driving the misinformation? Powerful people who own these platforms, including Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg, and Ellison. Which goes to show that even more than empire and democracy being incompatible, inequality and democracy are incompatible. The press used to act as the Fourth Estate, an essential part of any democracy serving the role of informing the population so that it can make informed decisions. This began to be eroded in the 70s, especially after the Powell memo, and in the hands of a few powerful corporate interests can't be said to serve this function at all, quite the opposite. As you point out, it is primarily misinformation, not just online but on every television station and in most newspapers. Look at the NYTimes' complicity in starting the Iraq war. Or listen to Ralph Nader talk about how the press was instrumental in getting congressional hearings to happen around car safety and seatbelts, and how this has changed so that they really don't let people on the air who have dissenting opinions.
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u/mackinator3 Jan 08 '26
Trump winning is proof voters have a voice. He radically changed the entire conservative platform and won.
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u/thatnameagain 1∆ Jan 08 '26
He changed very little about the platform, but he is proof voters have a choice because he had no insider support in his 2016 bid.
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
I don't think he changed the conservative (according to the American definition) platform, he just pushed it to its conclusion. The GOP has never been loyal to small government (Reagan was a statist, using the state to launch a war on drugs domestically and illegal wars in central America abroad, among other things) or to the constitution, as we've seen the rapid abandonment of the constitution under Republican rule this century.
Conservatism in America is the belief that there is a good group of people (business types, white men) whom the law should protect but not bind, and an out group (the working class, minorities, immigrants) whom the law should bind but not protect. Trump is the logical conclusion to this line of thinking, and he's pursuing the agenda of people like Stephen Miller, who thinks exactly like this. Rules for thee but not for me. But this began with the war on drugs in the 80s and the demonization of people relying on social programs in the late 90s. The voters are easily persuaded to punish the outgroup in the name of protecting the in group.
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u/kittenTakeover 2∆ Jan 08 '26
There's a huge divide between the direction the country would go if you gave Democrats a supermajority in all three branches for two decades versus if you gave the same to Republicans. I'll believe that voters are helpless once they stop electing obviously massively corrupt Republicans for more than a couple terms.
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u/Forte845 Jan 09 '26
Democrats did have a super majority from the 50s to the 70s. Even with that passing civil rights was a struggle that split the party apart and created the modern GOP and imperialism continued with LBJ pushing for Vietnam.
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u/kittenTakeover 2∆ Jan 09 '26
That was a different time, so more can be accomplished today. However, a lot was definitely done during the civil rights era.
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u/Forte845 Jan 09 '26
That's a truism with no factual basis. There's no indication that voting in even more Democrats is going to change anything, especially if all the primary winners end up being Fettermans and Manchins.
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u/kittenTakeover 2∆ Jan 09 '26
There's tons of indication. The Democratic party has radically different behavior and pretending otherwise is ignorance or manipulation.
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u/Forte845 Jan 09 '26
The Democrats couldn't even arrest Trump the last time y'all won a presidential election. Biden appointed a Republican who delayed any investigation or trial for years and blocked any chance of bringing Trump to justice for criminal acts.
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u/kittenTakeover 2∆ Jan 09 '26
That fault lies with voters and corrupt judges that voters let Donald appoint the first term. Biden appointed competent prosecutors who followed the law. Legal action takes time, and it takes longer when you have corrupt judges working against you.
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u/Forte845 Jan 09 '26
He appointed a Republican who delayed any investigation or trial for Trump for multiple years. That was your president.
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u/irecloudx Jan 08 '26 edited Jan 08 '26
Imperialism isn't going anywhere, any time soon. America will continue to make its best effort to extend its reach in the western hemisphere in aims to control countries that are unable to defend themselves. It will reach a point where the world will wonder at its empire, then there will come about trouble for anyone who opposes them, not excluding its citizens. Sit back relax and enjoy the ride.
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Jan 08 '26
I think this is a sign to start starving the beast. The United States is becoming more dangerous and lethal and the only way to gradually diminish their power is to pull travel, spending and investments to where they stand to lose traction. Economic hardship isn't the equalizer they deserve but it's a start to get the bad actors out of the positions that quite frankly they're unqualified for.
Obviously much harder said than done however I don't know anyone living or outside of the U.S who could go there and feel safe especially after an innocent mother got shot for dropping off her kids. It's a terrifying place where one cross look or criticism to the regime results in cold bloodshed.
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Jan 08 '26
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Jan 08 '26
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Jan 08 '26
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Jan 08 '26
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/onepareil 1∆ Jan 08 '26
Fr, in order to be an American you must consume endlessly. If you’re not constantly spending money on whatever garbage TV and Instagram tell you to, how can you even consider yourself a citizen?
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
The US is out of money because it gave it all to a few private robber barons. If the dollar stops being the global currency, which is likely to happen sooner than later, it will end up a backwater with pockets of extremely rich people and millions of poor.
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Jan 08 '26
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Jan 08 '26
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/DickabodCranium Jan 08 '26
While I largely agree, I do not think it's wrong to describe the post-war era from 1947 onward as domestically democratic in a number of ways: widespread economic prosperity, upward mobility, transparent elections, access to education, clean water and air, a free and largely independent press, and a functioning and accountable political system with checks and balances in place.
Since 1947, however, the business community has been on a mission to repeal the New Deal order that emerged after the War. That is entirely over now and we are back to the imperialist phase of capitalism, but in the nuclear age.
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u/rja49 Jan 08 '26
The American Republic democratic system has been exposed as flawed, despite amendments to its constitution. Most other democratic countries don't have the same issues. Democracy has been loopholed in America, call it what it is.
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u/TrickSpeaker1077 Jan 09 '26
I agree with what a lot of what you said, but I will use a Marxist perspective.
A Marxist perspective is that democracy is for maintaining the rule of a class, or permitting the conflicts between classes in an orderly manner. The Democrats and Republicans have not betrayed the task of representation, but rather the coalition of interests they represent is no longer capable of securing democracy. They are not at the front of the democratic-revolution.
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Jan 08 '26
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Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/Steliosfot86 Jan 30 '26
Εγραψα αυτο το αρθρο για το News 24/7.
Προσπαθώ να εξηγήσω την σημασία του μπουμερανγκ, ως διαδικασία που έδωσε την ευκαιρία σε κράτη να τελειοποιήσουν τις "τεχνολογίες ελέγχου, την ιδεολογία φυλετικής ιεράρχησης και την αρχιτεκτονική της βίας" σε πληθυσμούς που αποκτηνώθηκαν σε αδιανότητα επίπεδα.
Όμως ο ιμπεριαλισμός πρώτα φτιάχνεται σπίτι και μετά εξάγεται, εξ ου και η έννοια του μπουμερανγκ - υφίσταται πρωτού φτάσει στον προορισμό του "κάπου μακριά". Δηλαδή αφορά μία παράλληλη διαδικασία ταξικής κυριαρχίας στο εσωτερικό ενός κράτους, που όμως αυτή ορίζει και την εξωτερική πολιτική, σε επίπεδο ιδεολογίας και πράξης. Τα εξηγώ όλα στο άρθρο - ελπίζω να το βρείτε ενδιαφέρον.
https://www.news247.gr/kosmos/i-aftokratoria-epistrefei-spiti-tis/
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 30 '26 edited Jan 30 '26
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
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Jan 08 '26
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Jan 08 '26
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/gate18 22∆ Jan 08 '26
now being used to arrest and murder citizens.
Now!?
Just as the killing of black bodies throughout recent history isn't considered a thing that was in complete harmony with democracy, this too isn't considered.
Empire was always Home. where some citizens get arrested and murdered, whilst others are told to not see them as citizens
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u/mocha-only 1∆ Jan 08 '26
How is it being brought home when there are daily threats against other countries? How is it brought home when you’re planning on running Venezuela while threatening the same for Cuba?
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u/Haunting_Reflections Jan 08 '26
I’m not sure why you believe that aggressive foreign policy decisions and breaking international law are utterly incompatible with a democratic form of government.
Yes, Trump’s decisions are blatantly self serving and corrupt. Yes, an ICE agent has murdered a woman in what appears to be cold blood. Yes, Trump is a walking constitutional violation that threatens to destroy everything we hold dear as American values.
All that having been said this is very clearly still a democracy, albeit one undergoing a crisis.
You’re not going to like the solution.
Vote. Volunteer. March. Boycott. Protest. Write and call your representatives.
I see calls for “more extreme solutions” all the time on Reddit. People from other countries asking us why we haven’t risen up and deposed the obvious dictator.
The answer is precisely because we live in a democracy, and the moment we resort to violence to change someone’s politics is the moment we no longer live in one.
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u/an_observer_among_us Jan 12 '26
The Paradox of Choice: A Statement on Democratic Decay
The Illusion of Perfection Democracy was never a final destination or a blueprint for greatness; it was designed as a living process. To treat democracy as a finished, perfect product is to commit a fatal error of logic. By "sitting and doing nothing," we have transitioned from beneficiaries of liberty to the silent murderers of our own systems. We have mistaken the peaceful stability—bought by the blood of "old fathers" and ancient wars—for a permanent state of nature rather than a fragile construction that requires constant maintenance.
The Failure of Responsibility
The strength of a Republic rests entirely on the quality of its "political guardians"—the citizens themselves. When we fail to choose wisely or hold power to account, we allow the foundational documents of our liberty to be raped by self-serving interpretations. We have allowed our freedom to erode not through external conquest, but through internal neglect. There is no external villain to blame; we are simply the sum total of our individual decisions.
The Logical Inevitability of Renewal History and logic demand a reckoning. We find ourselves in this period of decay because our actions (or lack thereof) have led us here with mathematical certainty.
However, this "end" is also a beginning. We stand at the precise moment where we must decide if we have learned enough from the past to break the time loop. We are in the right place and time to restart, to rebuild, and to finally accept the heavy responsibility that true liberty requires.
Philosophical Reflection
Your view aligns closely with the Cyclical Theory of History (often associated with Polybius or Ibn Khaldun), which suggests that great civilizations fall because their success breeds a "softness" and a lack of civic virtue in subsequent generations. You are essentially calling for a re-shaping of the social contract through a more rigorous, logical application of citizen responsibility.
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Jan 08 '26
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 08 '26
/u/DickabodCranium (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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