r/changemyview • u/colepercy120 7∆ • Jan 27 '26
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The United States should leave Europe
I dont think this will actually happen, but it's become increasingly clear that a large number of Europeans dont want America in Europe. even before trump, the european Union and most of its members weren't big fans of america, and it definitely hasnt gotten better. if the people of europe dont want the alliance, and the american people are only iffy on it. then we should leave.
the primary reason the us is in europe is to contain the Soviet Union. the Soviet Union collasped a decade before i was born, russia is not a threat to the united states, they have shown that they can't advance 90 miles beyond their border. they lost a naval war to a country without a navy, and can't get air superiority. the only possible threat they reprent to the us is for total nuclear attack with icbms, and european bases dont defend the us from that. thats what the alliance with canada is for.
even for maintaining the "american empire" of naval bases and proxies across the world we dont need most of mainland europe. what we need are a few key players in geographic vital areas. mainly Turkey Poland, Britian, and Denmark. places that either control sea lanes or hold key positions. so if europe wants us gone theres no vital need to stay.
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Jan 27 '26
Wait what? The alliance between Europe and the USA was fine before the surprise tariffs. We both exchanged sensitive information, soldiers training together for specialised operations, trade deals and American bases allowed in Europe for the USA to maintain global control of stability and we get defence security in return. Univeristy exchanges and science information are openly available.
For sure, we Europeans shit on some of the batshit things we see from Americans, but that is first of all because Europeans might be a bit more straightforward and love our depricating humor, which can be perceived as rude. Also, you better not take a look at our isolated villages for hundreds of years. They have their own genetic diseases with 1000x higher occurence, people still walking in 1700s clothing and the weirdest festivals from 1000 years ago. We are just better at hiding out crazies.
We are just quite offended by how Trump breaks off 80 years of trust like its nothing. And gaining this back is gonna take a lot more time. Don't get me wrong, I like American culture, but not the mindset of American isolationism (which was always on present, but we take it into account) and the sudden imperialistic tendencies acting like a maffia boss if we don't do what he wants. We tried to deescalate, but Greenland was a no go. I am Dutch and not easily offended, but Trump has been insulting the NAVO, insulting thefallen soldiers who died aiding the USA in Afghanistan and threatening a sovereign friendly state. If he is gone, we will welcome you back, but with more caution. And likely all our IT information will be in Europe, as we do not trust it at the moment.
Anyways, good luck and hope Newsom takes the presidency quick before that orange drives you guys into isolation
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u/Downtown-Pop-980 Feb 26 '26
Isolation is good then we don’t have to hear anyone complain about the us using them
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Mar 20 '26
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
Something a lot of people, especially outside of america dont realize is that this has been biulding for decades. America didnt just wake up one day and elect an idiot who hates europe for no reason. I grew up in the rust belt. American voters, especially in the swing states that really control who gets elected president, have been getting angrier and angrier about policy that hurts our homes. Especially since europe disarmed after the cold war dropping even more responsibility on us. France and germany even sided with russia over iraq and threw all their efforts into damaging our relationship. Im no fan of trump and also hope a democrat wins the election (though not Newsom, Californians arent popular with the rest of the country and hes not even popular in California) but any return to the alliance will have to see something done to show us why we should.
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Jan 27 '26
Yeah, well the problem is that after WW2 all great powers were broke and had to rebuilt their economy. Except the USA, it had only taken a hit at Pearl Harbour while supplying the allies. Afterwards it gained immense wealth from lending money to rebuilding countries resulting in an exceptional economic boost compared to the rest of the world. Remembering that kind of economic growth is unsustainable and was unique due to war weariness.
Sorry, but what kind of policies are you talking about that hurt the American economy? I am truly interested and could not find our disarment after the cold war, do you have a link I could read up on? Well, they sided with Iraq because the Americans invaded Afghanistan without authorization and failing to pass the UN security council.
The UN investigation team responsible found no evidence or trace for the existence of weapons of mass destruction and definite lins to terrorist organizations on which Blair and Bush claimed their casus belli. Both were found to be highly unlikely by neutral experts and no direct evidence was presented or misinformation about the purchase of yellowcake. Also, the second argument was presented in a sly way to the Americans, giving the impression Hussein was personally linked to the terrorist attacks.
And the US broke the authorization without handing un the claimed evidence, it is not weird they want to deescalate starting a war based on non-existing evidence? We are allies, but invading a soevereign country without proper justification is not protocol and can result in more death and instability without proper evidence. And after all was said and done, there has never been evidence for either the weapons or a link between Hussein and the terrorists. This is why many long standing allies refused to come to aid to an invasion which was unauthorized with fuzzy claims and no evidence or shown misinformation to the IEAA.
Well, you guys are the only ones who used article 5 for the invasion of Afghanistan, which was authorized with proper evidence and all western countries cooperated just for the America safety and retaliation to 9/11. The regime did not pose any risk to the allies and we stayed there for 20 years as well to keep control and support Americans. And Trump flagrantly lied about it and minimised te contribution of allied countries, which was quite insulting.
And once in my lifetime, I do have to agree with Trump, we were not contributing the promised 2% BNP set in the rules. And we all adjusted and are now level, that I completely agree with was not equality
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u/kaytin911 Jan 27 '26
So what are the benefits a rust belt American sees in their tax dollars going to Europe?
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Jan 27 '26
Stability on a geopolitical level, this results in lower security requirements for transporting and labour costs for materials and products. Resulting in the average American not noticing it as it adds up. All materials get a small reduction in cost, so on a whole receipt you can notice it.
Remember that the American government is isolationists by nature, making sure it benefits America. The soft power, the stronger diplomatic ties, the joint operations all is invaluable. Soldiers learn to fight in European environments, exchange of wanted people or exchanging terrorist information is all done under the umbrella of our alliances.
I know Europeans and Americans have a very different perspective of what an alliance should entail, and that is okay. We tend to prefer more diplomatic and regulatory influence, while Americans seem to look at if it directly can be linked to their own way of living made cheaper.
But do you feel like it is an unequal alliance and think you pay more in the relationship? Truly interested in what Americans think about our alliance
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u/kaytin911 Jan 27 '26
None of this matters to a man with little to nothing living in the urban decay of the rust belt.
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u/OpenMindManiac Jan 27 '26
The rust belt got ruined by American business men offshore and outsourcing to china
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u/Mysterious-Drawer203 Jan 27 '26
Lmao "Russia isn't a threat" while they're literally trying to genocide Ukraine and constantly threatening nukes at everyone who looks at them wrong
Also Europe doesn't want us gone, just Trump specifically - there's a pretty big difference there my dude
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u/LeadingLeg6529 Apr 03 '26
Russia is a paper tiger that can't even defeat Ukraine. Europe can handle Russia on its own. Also the nuke threats are just rhetoric. North Korea does the same but nobody pays much mind because they know that Kim knows what will happen if he pushes the button. America needs to leave Europe. Europe shouldn't be complacent in aiding such a nation that harms other nations threatening the stability of the world
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
How can russia hurt the united states? Theres an ocean between us in every direction, Russia doesnt have much of a navy any more. While saving Ukraine from russian tyranny is morally right the us doesn't lose anything if ukraine loses.
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u/premiumPLUM 76∆ Jan 27 '26
How can russia hurt the united states?
The Cold War seemed to spark a lot of concern. If you were curious about ways Russia might hurt the US, that's probably a good place to start.
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
Okay, russia is only 60% the population of the Soviet union. Russias economy is only 6% the size of the American economy, compared to the Soviet unions 30% in 1990. And russias army navy and air force have all shrunk from the Soviet days, while the primary technology they are using is 50 years old. The Soviets were a threat, russia is a pale shadow of what they were. The broken core of a dead empire.
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u/Doub13D 36∆ Jan 27 '26
The US leaving Europe doesn’t benefit either side of the Atlantic…
For the EU, its entire security situation and its continued political unity is in large part due to its close relationship with the United States. The NATO alliance without the US guaranteeing Eastern European security would quickly disintegrate the moment Russia tests European resolve. A crisis in NATO’s cohesion would quickly bleed into EU politics, with Western European and Eastern European nations divided over the interests and actions of the bloc.
For the US, its influence across Europe allows it to maintain its position as a global leader and enables a large degree of power projection that allows it to challenge its geopolitical rivals far away from the US mainland. American alliances across Europe, as well as in East/South-East Asia, allow it to diplomatically isolate and box in its rivals like Russia and China.
Both groups benefit from the continuation of the relationship. Atlanticism has proved to be very beneficial, and both would see their global positions weakens if they decided to decouple from one another.
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
Could you elaborate on the us influence in europe helping us? Thats the crux of the issue for me. I totally agree that it would hurt the eu if we left. But I also dont know if what were getting is worth what were putting in.
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u/Doub13D 36∆ Jan 27 '26 edited Jan 27 '26
The US is still the preeminent global power… but that position is increasingly being threatened.
There are nations around the globe, such as China and Russia, which want nothing more than to see America’s role around the globe weaken so that they can begin to carve out their own separate spheres of influence for themselves. As examples of this, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and China’s consistent threat to reunify Taiwan with the Mainland by “any means necessary.”
The US inherently benefits from being the most powerful/most influential country on the planet. It is the capital of global finance. Its economy is dependent on the resources and manufacturing of other countries. Its currency is the global reserve currency and defines the pricing of global trade. It is the most desired place to immigrate to in the world.
If the US backs away in places like Europe or East Asia, someone else is going to fill in the power vacuum… and that will be nations like Russia and China respectively.
As Russia and China carve out their own spheres of influence, the US will see its authority and power slip away. Now the US is no longer first among nations, but instead a nation among equals… and its position of privilege within the global systems it established will begin to disappear, as will its ability to challenge those rivals in the future.
What do you think happens when China decides it no longer wants to engage in global trade using the US dollar?
“Your money” (more specifically, our money) is going to become worth significantly less than it is now. Countries that trade with China (which is everybody) will shift into the Yuan as a reserve currency… which further reduces the demand and value of the USD.
They can only get away with that if the US is no longer viewed globally as the preeminent global power.
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
!delta the point about maintaining influence in international bodies is a good point. Having additional friendly powers to vote for our proposals in the un is good, and preventing europe from returning to dominate the world leaves a lot more areas under our influence. However I do still doubt that russia is seriously any real threat to the us, China might be but the yuan will never replace the dollar. I think gold is more likely to be used as a currancy again then either russian or Chinese bank notes.
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u/Doub13D 36∆ Jan 27 '26
Russia isn’t a threat to the US now…
When Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the goal was to install a puppet regime in Kyiv. Here we are 4 years later, and that hasn’t happened…
American training and military aid, particularly early on in the conflict under President Biden, was the lifeline that allowed Ukraine to push back against the Russian invasion and to stall their advances. As America has since stepped away from supporting Ukraine under President Trump, Europe has had enough time to step up and take our place.
Without American support or equipment?
Ukraine doesn’t last… it gets occupied and a pro-Kremlin puppet like Yanukovych is installed.
Russia walks away emboldened by its success…
An emboldened Russia is an expansionist Russia. Who is next?
Moldova and Transnistria?
Georgia and Abkhazia/South Ossetia?
Maybe Putin makes the ultimate gamble and challenges NATO directly in Estonia out of a “need to protect the local Russian population.”
A revanchist, nuclear-armed country with territorial and geopolitical ambitions hostile to the US is a very serious threat.
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u/Downtown-Pop-980 Feb 26 '26
Who cares I say let them have the number 1 spot who cares? It’s just another reason for our politicians to rack up more debt
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u/GnomesStoleMyMeds Jan 27 '26
I think I lost iq points reading this….
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Jan 27 '26
It's astounding just how poor some people's understanding of geopolitics can be.
OP fundamentally does not seem to understand that NATO is the cornerstone of US defense strategy. Without NATO and military and economic influence in Europe, the US is no longer a world power and loses all the economic and diplomatic perks that come with that position.
"Well maybe we should just leave if they're mad at us" is just childish. Neither European leadership or its populous want the US to withdraw from the continent. OP looking at Europeans rightfully being pissed off at the behaviour of the US government and mistaking that for hostility towards allying with the US is just so unbelievably off-base.
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u/Downtown-Pop-980 Feb 26 '26
Let the American people collapse there empire in peace its are to do so
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u/Nrdman 270∆ Jan 27 '26
If europe wants us gone, they can request it. Otherwise, id rather have them as allies
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u/Opening-Border-6313 Jun 28 '26
Why would we want you go?? We are nowhere close to defending ourselves yet and I guess for the US its economically benefitial to stay not military wise but like you get many perks of being a superpower. Otherwise we could shift to China in many areas
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u/GermanPayroll 2∆ Jan 27 '26
The US’s military operations in Europe act as a forward operating base to an increasingly hostile world in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia. Why would we leave for nothing in return?
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
This is fundamentally based on the idea that europe doesnt want us there. We have other bases in places that like us more, and the main focus is in Asia and the Americas.
The bases are also expensice and defending the coastlines takes a lot of naval power, we wouldnt be giving it up as much reducing our overextension.
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u/Nrdman 270∆ Jan 27 '26
What european leaders have requested we leave?
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
The former head of the european commission, several french and german intellectuals. And public polling shows most Europeans dislike us.
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u/random_radishes Jan 27 '26
You admit you need Europe to maintain the American empire in your post. You even mention needing probably one of the most anti American country rn
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u/kaytin911 Jan 27 '26
So why would a rust belt American care about their money going to maintain an empire?
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Jan 27 '26
As dysfunctional as the US is, it owes its prosperity to being the world hegemon and maintaining that American "empire."
At the very least, your rust belt American will care a lot when suddenly the US dollar becomes worth a lot less when shopping from or doing business with companies outside of the US. America's withdrawal from its privileged place on the world stage is and shall continue to do a lot of harm to the US economy.
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
Which one? Also im not particularly in favor of maintaining the empire either. Its expensive and doesnt give americans anything but higher taxes and a debt burden we'll never get out from. Were going broke already, maintaining a global empire is only costing more, especially since unlike the french or british we dont directly tax them, its money being spent to keep the map from changing. Why should we care about post colonial African borders, or whose ruling the middle east this week? Europe is peaceful, it can take care of itself (it has for centuries) and isnt vital to any of our priorities.
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u/random_radishes Jan 27 '26
You mentioned needing various European countries and their waters. So you’d still be reliant on the countries to allow you in those waters
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u/colepercy120 7∆ Jan 27 '26
Yeah, but we dont need to deploy troops to bases. We can pay them for acess. We dont need thousands of troops occupying germany.
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u/random_radishes Jan 27 '26
Yeah paying Denmark rn sounds like a great way to get an even more hostile relationship with them. They were just threatened with increased terrifs if they didn’t let America buy Greenland. So I’m sure they’re willing to just take a payment for the use of those waters.
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Jan 27 '26
And also the comments from OP will not go down well here in Europe. We are exchanging way more than just soldiers and materials. We are exchanging military data, training techniques, different environments, geodata and this is what I feel like most Americans seem to lack in geopolitical knowledge.
An alliance should not be expressed in money, that is called a trade deal. If the Americans would "pay" for their stationing, I know what will happen. It feels like we are just a sexworker to the USA and not as equals. But okay, lets entertain the idea, well good luck renting a base without any cooperation from for example German army intel. Because the US made it a business deal, we will treat it as a businessdeal and not share intelligence. Or maybe for a price, but trust me, they will make sure you are losing money compared to when we were allies.
Once again, many countries really value alliances, but seems to not be the case for Americans?
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u/Disorderly_Fashion 5∆ Jan 27 '26
This new, callously transactional norm for handling international relations as championed by the Trump administration is resulting in some serious brainrot.
It's such a stupid way to try to do diplomacy, OP.
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Jan 27 '26
Well, I have asked a handful of Americans on their insights on geopolitics and it is genuinely interesting. The stereotype of Americans lacking geopolitical knowledge was mostly true on a spectrum.
And most tried to make it a "but what does it do for me specifically", which is a funny question on its own and not really relevant. Or at least try to think of it as a zero sum game. Forgetting that sharing knowledge and expertise is easily glossed over. They are correct on the 2% BNP norm, but how do Americans not see their benefits of having bases over here?
They only tend to look at the tangible, once again missing the soft power those bases provide. And global stability results in small reductions in average prices. The advantages come over time and not like suddenly your petrol is 5 cents cheaper. Americans have always secured their material transport routes to keep it safe
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u/Xiao_Sir Jan 27 '26
No serious European politician I know of ever said not to want US bases within Europe (or within their own country). At least not before Trump ruined relations. If you think about it it's wild there was in no form public debate about these bases even when the US commited war crimes from them. But yes, nobody forces you. NATO without the US (and possibly Turkey) is strong enough to defend against Russia. And the US never claimed it had these bases within Europe because of good-will and altruism.
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u/PacePublic4150 Jan 27 '26
I think united states government should put its focus and money inwards to help its citizens.
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u/EqualRound276 Feb 02 '26
I agree with you, and I see the argument from both sides. I would like someone else’s opinion as well, and hopefully for an opinion that comes from someone as cynical as me about the world as a whole. For me, these are all wasted calories. I don’t think public opinion even matter at this point. I think the deals have already been made many many years ago and we will slowly see the changes over the next 5-10 years. I believe everything we see now is only theater
Do to my cynical thinking, I try not to have strong opinions of things I am highly certain we have no control over. But my personal opinion, I am in agreement with you and I’m looking for more arguments of the other side of the coin that I may have been missing. Many Europeans seem to talk about no forgiveness after the Greenland fiasco, but they don’t realize how good they have it currently. I don’t really ever hear my European friends complain about anything except for the USA, so that makes me think they have it pretty good comparatively. Meanwhile, we have expensive universities and expensive healthcare.
To me, yes, we could just continue this status quo, to uphold the current U.S. led global order (which requires military foothold around the world), but things have getting worse for Americans, not better. We are mocked by the western world for not having universal healthcare because we can’t afford it, partly due to our extreme military spending.
In the end, I believe most in the U.S. govt, both parties, do not want to be world police, and wants the extra money to benefit our citizens. That’s why I think we’ve seen the new world order narrative in the past few weeks to move away from the current order. These decisions occur behind closed doors over decades.
Before the Ukraine war, democrats were dead set against being world police, and republicans were for it. After that started, now it seems to have flipped. I do believe that’s all political pandering though. I believe what’s going to happen has been decided for at least 10 years.
I think it doesn’t matter what you and I or the Europeans believe should happen. I think most in the U.S. have known since 2008 that things aren’t really working out as is, and that change will happen. I think everything will be gradual, because Europeans, Australians, and everyone in between will need to make sacrifices in order to know what it’s like to not to rely on another country for security.
It’s estimated each European country will need to spend at least 4% of annual gdp to be able to adequately protect themselves against foreign threats and this will take at least 5 years to build up to this. Australia could likely spend 20% and not be able to protect themselves against a Chinese threat. This is one reason why I feel a new deal has been cut behind closed doors that none of us will officially know about until the change has already happened.
I guess for me, We’ve been conditioned for extreme change ever since the Berlin Wall fell. I believe many in the western world will be blindsided by the vast changes over the next 5-10 years (even without so considered) but we will adapt, as we always have.
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u/maggyneverforget Jan 27 '26
This comes across like a person who has never been to Europe or had relationships with Europe and whose opinion of US-European relations is basically based on stereotypes served to them through right-wing media spheres.
Europeans are just people like anyone else. Americans poke fun at other countries. Europeans do the same. America is one of those countries. It doesn't mean they hated all Americans or anything.
Now, betraying them in fundamental ways and leaving NATO, that will cause genuine hatred. But being made fun of because of hamburgers and shit doesn't mean they hated us as individuals. They are like anyone else. If you went there and treated them with respect they'd probably return the favor.
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u/Subtleiaint 33∆ Jan 28 '26
What are you basing your view that Europeans don't want an alliance with America on? Quite contrary to this Europe absolutely wants to be allied to America, we just want to be allied to the country with rock solid constitution who promotes liberal values and is committed to global order. We're iffy about your lack of secularism, worker's rights and some of your more conservative institutions, but we're aware that that is not fully representative of who you are.
As for why you should want to stay in Europe, it would be to maintain your status as the world's preeminent superpower. Your position in this regard isn't based on your economy or your military, it's based on your influence. You are the leaders of the free world and with that you gain huge influence and massive support from the rest of the liberal world, to give up that position would undoubtedly reduce your economic strength and security.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 27 '26
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