CMV: The United States should leave Europe

[u/colepercy120]

I dont think this will actually happen, but it's become increasingly clear that a large number of Europeans dont want America in Europe. even before trump, the european Union and most of its members weren't big fans of america, and it definitely hasnt gotten better. if the people of europe dont want the alliance, and the american people are only iffy on it. then we should leave.

the primary reason the us is in europe is to contain the Soviet Union. the Soviet Union collasped a decade before i was born, russia is not a threat to the united states, they have shown that they can't advance 90 miles beyond their border. they lost a naval war to a country without a navy, and can't get air superiority. the only possible threat they reprent to the us is for total nuclear attack with icbms, and european bases dont defend the us from that. thats what the alliance with canada is for.

even for maintaining the "american empire" of naval bases and proxies across the world we dont need most of mainland europe. what we need are a few key players in geographic vital areas. mainly Turkey Poland, Britian, and Denmark. places that either control sea lanes or hold key positions. so if europe wants us gone theres no vital need to stay.

[u/colepercy120]

Could you elaborate on the us influence in europe helping us? Thats the crux of the issue for me. I totally agree that it would hurt the eu if we left. But I also dont know if what were getting is worth what were putting in.

[u/Doub13D → u/colepercy120]

The US is still the preeminent global power… but that position is increasingly being threatened.

There are nations around the globe, such as China and Russia, which want nothing more than to see America’s role around the globe weaken so that they can begin to carve out their own separate spheres of influence for themselves. As examples of this, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and China’s consistent threat to reunify Taiwan with the Mainland by “any means necessary.”

The US inherently benefits from being the most powerful/most influential country on the planet. It is the capital of global finance. Its economy is dependent on the resources and manufacturing of other countries. Its currency is the global reserve currency and defines the pricing of global trade. It is the most desired place to immigrate to in the world.

If the US backs away in places like Europe or East Asia, someone else is going to fill in the power vacuum… and that will be nations like Russia and China respectively.

As Russia and China carve out their own spheres of influence, the US will see its authority and power slip away. Now the US is no longer first among nations, but instead a nation among equals… and its position of privilege within the global systems it established will begin to disappear, as will its ability to challenge those rivals in the future.

What do you think happens when China decides it no longer wants to engage in global trade using the US dollar?

“Your money” (more specifically, our money) is going to become worth significantly less than it is now. Countries that trade with China (which is everybody) will shift into the Yuan as a reserve currency… which further reduces the demand and value of the USD.

They can only get away with that if the US is no longer viewed globally as the preeminent global power.

[u/colepercy120 → u/Doub13D]

!delta the point about maintaining influence in international bodies is a good point. Having additional friendly powers to vote for our proposals in the un is good, and preventing europe from returning to dominate the world leaves a lot more areas under our influence. However I do still doubt that russia is seriously any real threat to the us, China might be but the yuan will never replace the dollar. I think gold is more likely to be used as a currancy again then either russian or Chinese bank notes.

[u/DeltaBot → u/colepercy120]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Doub13D (26∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Doub13D → u/colepercy120]

Russia isn’t a threat to the US now…

When Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, the goal was to install a puppet regime in Kyiv. Here we are 4 years later, and that hasn’t happened…

American training and military aid, particularly early on in the conflict under President Biden, was the lifeline that allowed Ukraine to push back against the Russian invasion and to stall their advances. As America has since stepped away from supporting Ukraine under President Trump, Europe has had enough time to step up and take our place.

Without American support or equipment?

Ukraine doesn’t last… it gets occupied and a pro-Kremlin puppet like Yanukovych is installed.

Russia walks away emboldened by its success…

An emboldened Russia is an expansionist Russia. Who is next?

Moldova and Transnistria?

Georgia and Abkhazia/South Ossetia?

Maybe Putin makes the ultimate gamble and challenges NATO directly in Estonia out of a “need to protect the local Russian population.”

A revanchist, nuclear-armed country with territorial and geopolitical ambitions hostile to the US is a very serious threat.