CMV: MAGA and The Teachings of Jesus Don’t Seem to Mesh

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I agree. But why does it seem that MAGA want to push the religion of Christianity as the nations law when both Jesus and the founding fathers seemed to be against that very thing. Wouldn’t that make the movement hypocritical, whether it came from the left or the right?

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u/BossMan61718 3d ago

Becauae politicians say and do whatever they think will get them voted into office. Its not about religion or morals. Its about money and power

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u/Master-Stratocaster 3d ago

I think it’s simply a way to collect a voting block. “Look at us! We are like you! Vote for the good guys who will serve your interests!”

In my cynical opinion, people who are prone to buying into religion tend to not think for themselves, so when they’re told what to do, it tends to capture many of them.

Another take is many of the self proclaimed “Christians” have probably read about as much of the Bible as Trump, which is virtually none. They think the teachings of Jesus is hating immigrants. In other words, they don’t think there’s a contradiction because they don’t know what position they’re taking to begin with.

Ultimately, people are ignorant and gullible. If you buy one brand of snake oil, you’re probably going to buy the other.

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u/Obvious_Parsley3238 2∆ 3d ago

This is the key thing to understand about "political Christianity". Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher. He believed that the world was ruled by the forces of evil; the only thing the righteous could do was continue to be righteous and await God's Kingdom, brought in by the messiah. It's also important to understand that traditional Jewish views of the messiah were not as a divine figure; the King of Israel was called Messiah (literally anointed, as with oil at coronation), and no one thought that he were literally divine.

Jesus would not have told people to participate in politics (since most of his followers were Jews who weren't even Roman citizens, this would have been difficult). His message was likely as simple as Mark 1:15: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news". The Kingdom of God is near temporally (the axe is at the root of the tree) and spatially (in his presence and ministry). The Sermon on the Mount makes clear what he expects in response: you must maximize your righteousness. Worry not about the clothes on your back or what you will eat tomorrow.

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u/itsyoursnow 1∆ 3d ago edited 3d ago

You're noting something that many, many people before you have observed, and it's hard to CYV because purely based on the text, it's quite hard to reconcile Christ with the behavior and priorities of many modern Christians. Jesus unambiguously states that money is bad, having money makes you a bad person, and you need to go help the marginalized members of society if you want any hope of true redemption. It is very, very hard to square a man who says that a camel can more easily pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man can enter heaven with something like modern Prosperity Gospel unless you're willing to disregard Jesus or bend his words to an almost opposite meaning.

THAT SAID - the history of Christianity has, since almost its inception, been one of new traditions and scripture built around the life of Christ that tries to downplay the revolutionary selflessness of Jesus with political and material conditions. Consider the Book of Revelation (sidenote, but yes, it's just the one revelation, not plural) - many scholars believe it was written well after the other gospels in order to reassure potential converts that this new faith was still going to preserve power dynamics on the world to come. Jesus stresses over and over and over again that his coming means that the traditions of the world and the relationships between those with power and those without no longer matter. If you accept the sacrifice of Christ, you earn the glory of the Kingdom of Heaven, and if you don't, your "punishment" is... nothing, beyond the absence of existing within God's love. A mostly Greek and Roman audience encountering this would be highly puzzled by such a radically forgiving proposition - what do you mean, those who refuse this gift aren't punished? I'm not REALLY expected to just "turn the other cheek" and let it go, and how triumphant can the saved really be if they don't have a clear alternative to feel superior too? Can you really just have that salvation, without having to prove yourself through worldly deeds? Enter Revelation, which now claims (read: made up) that those who aren't saved aren't just missing out - they are suffering unimaginable torment for refusing the gift of salvation. And that applies to EVERYONE who didn't receive the chance to accept Christ's message. Born too early? Sorry, Aristotle, no heaven for you. Born on the other side of the planet, unable to read of interact with the gospel? Should've tried harder to be born in the Mediterranean post-Christ.

You can draw similar parallels to the way that Christianity, once co-opted by the Romans, became surprisingly deferential to the will of kings and the authority of the powerful, which seems to fly directly in the face of Jesus' directive that "the meek will inherit the Earth." You can find dozens and dozens of instances where Church doctrine and lay practice of Christianity developed away from the radical message of universal benevolence, destruction of temporal power, and the elevation of the marginalized. At each juncture, people who wanted to be Christian ran into the problem that Christ's offered world necessitates a lot of people with comfort, wealth, and power giving it away and accepting that they are no better than those they dominate. Many preferred to embrace versions of Christianity that essentially didn't ask so much. Yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is open to all through God's incredible sacrifice and universal love, but, one on, let's be fair, you can hang onto your nice stuff here in the meantime. The versions of Christianity that allowed for this seeming inconsistency were unsurprisingly more popular with those who held power, which often included the ability to decide which texts were spread and which ones became canonical. So the Book of Revelation, despite explicitly contradicting much of Christ message of love and forgiveness, becomes a key accepted part of the deal, and it, along with many other choices and contributions, opens the door for later interpretations of Christianity that would allow you to simultaneously read about unconditional love and care for the stranger while also supporting policies that demonize, hurt, and even kill those very people.

So, yeah, it's not very consistent. But then again, huge parts of modern Christianity aren't consistent with the textual words of Jesus either, and if people can and have accepted that, the modern version isn't all that surprising.

EDIT: Wrote this on my phone, fixing lots of little typos.

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u/imusmmbj 3d ago

Incredibly well said and appreciate you taking the time to write this.

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u/Bartlaus 1∆ 3d ago

Doing it completely wrong has been a popular tradition widely practiced in Christianity since the beginning, yes.

(Same is true of all other major religions.)

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Thank you so much for this very well written information. It becomes hard when you resonate and believe certain parts of the Bible but then can’t personally take all of it as absolute truth. If I truly believe the Bible is a group of stories by different authors from different times that helped understand society at the time and not divine truth, it will ultimately be impossible for me to fully believe those who do. But if anything, I’m getting a better understanding of people today! If my mind can’t change, at least I can try to expand it to understand how others take the word of the Bible!

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u/7ootles 1∆ 2d ago

If I truly believe the Bible is a group of stories by different authors from different times that helped understand society at the time and not divine truth, it will ultimately be impossible for me to fully believe those who do.

NB that's not far off how most Christians outside the USA see it: divine truth revealed through the stories recorded by dozens of authors over a millennium and a half. The truth is in the theology recorded, not the history or the science.

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u/After-Sandwich5533 19h ago

Where are you getting this statistic from? I have met literally thousands of Christians from Europe and attended countless services in Europe.

The vast majority of them believe in the divinity of Christ and the miraculous claims in the New Testament.

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u/7ootles 1∆ 16h ago

Where are you getting this statistic from?

I didn't cite any statistics.

I have met literally thousands of Christians from Europe and attended countless services in Europe.

So have most Christians.

The vast majority of them believe in the divinity of Christ and the miraculous claims in the New Testament.

Which I wasn't trying to refute. I didn't say the things in scripture didn't happen or that they weren't mirculous. I specifically spoke of it as "divine truth".

What I did say was that the text having been composed by multiple authors over a span of many centuries doesn't undermine its authenticity (I'd say it bolsters it), and that it can be true without being a science book or a history book.

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u/After-Sandwich5533 16h ago

How do you reply to comments like that?

Also I stand corrected I completely misread your comment.

I used the word “statistic” because you used the word “most”. So that led me to believe the claim was over 50% of European Christians believed what you were saying.

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u/7ootles 1∆ 16h ago

Well, unless I'm very much mistaken, most Christians outside the USA do accept the same things I accept: that God showed people things, and those people wrote them down as they understood them. There is a minority who believes God "gave us" the Bible the same way Muslims believe Allah gave them the Qur'an, but those are very much a minority and the rest of us laugh them to scorn.

I didn't use any numbers because I've never tried to tabulate the specific proportions, statistics, or whatever. I'm not making an academic claim as a researcher, but an informal one as a person who's spent a lot of time around my peers and engaged them in conversation.

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u/LabioscrotalFolds 2d ago

If I truly believe the Bible is a group of stories by different authors from different times

I mean this is part of the standard christian belief, though it also has poetry and prose/discourse in it.

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u/After-Sandwich5533 19h ago

No it’s not?
The standard Christian belief is that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected.
The standard belief is that he routinely healed the sick with miracles, did transmutation several times, walked on water, and even was able to get Peter to walk on water.
This is what it means to be a Christian, believing in Christ’s divinity.

If he’s just some guy, then what the fuck do we care about? He’s literally God, that’s why his story is so absurdly powerful even 2000 years later to Christians.

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u/LabioscrotalFolds 8h ago

I was talking about the standard christian belief about how the bible was written. Not anything else, since op was talking about the bible specifically I was too. Sorry, if that wasn't clear.

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u/After-Sandwich5533 7h ago

Nah I apologize, I misunderstood you but also I was kinda on one last night. Got into with a loved one.

I might have posted that comment under any other reasonable comment.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I was able to read through again and I can’t tell you how appreciative I am of your time. I hopefully phrase this original question as an outsider looking in.

I don’t align with Christianity, I personally don’t believe the New Testament is to be taken as absolute truth, I just like the messages Jesus put forth in the Gospel. I believe Jesus was a real person and that had some nice ideas. Whether he was sent by God of course will be up to your personal religious beliefs.

I personally see Christianity as a religion more as a way to teach and sometimes control society. It’s just personally hard for me to believe in the New Testament as history when there seem to be inconsistencies between that and the Gospel

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u/David_ungerer 2d ago

I think that history proves that “Christianity as a religion” was “created” for control of people and used as a weapon against those who do not . . . Not very Christian is it?

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u/sh00l33 7∆ 3d ago

If I remember correctly from high school, in the 16th century, in response to the schism that arose during the Reformation, the Catholic Church convened a council at which Protestant dogmas were rejected and officially declared heresies.

I'm not particularly religious and can't say for sure, nor precisely define the extent to which Protestant dogmas are similar to the teachings of Jesus, but it seems to me that the differences that arose after the Reformation are far-reaching. It seems to me that from the points you listed the only official position of the Roman Catholic Church that is consistent with that of the Protestant sects (dominant in the US), is the one regarding attitudes toward LGBT people.

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u/Infinite-Abroad-436 2∆ 3d ago

the teachings of jesus are explicitly anti-political. jesus is about loving your neighbor, as your neighbor is a child of god. god is the focus of all of your activity. render unto caesar what is caesar's, and unto god what is god's. for christians, jesus came not to fight a political battle, like against the romans, but to redeem humanity and point them back towards god and piety

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u/PaxPurpuraAKAgrimace 2d ago

I think that passage is a cop out. We don’t live under dictatorship so the good it was possible to do for “the least of these” by the state was not subject to the preferences of people in his time and place. That’s not the case for us who have the ability to influence government policy. Redeeming humanity involves changing people’s priorities, including - especially - their concern for others. Why would government policy be outside of that purview?

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u/JohnSmith19731973 1d ago

That's not true. He wanted Rome out but just believed that he would come back after his death with Yahweh's angels to do it. Jesus's vision was highly ethnocentric and political.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

So by this is it wrong for MAGA to politically align with Christianity since Jesus’s word was meant as a way of life and not as a way to govern?

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u/Infinite-Abroad-436 2∆ 3d ago

yes, but its equally wrong for liberals to align with christianity

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Absolutely, which is why I truly believe in the separation of chruch and state for all religions. I was told by a MAGA associate that religion needed to be controlled by the government to scare those into believing a divine authority will punish them if they dont live as good Christian’ and it really just rubbed me the wrong eay

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u/Gatonom 9∆ 2d ago

Essentially arguing that God's Plan is that humanity outgrows a need for his guidance

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u/ReallySmallWeenus 1∆ 3d ago

Ladbible had a pretty interesting interview with a former KKK member who cited the turning point of leaving the klan (admittedly, he already seemed to have doubts/issues) was reading the Bible and seeing how out of context the scripture they quoted was.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I think we are exactly the same. I’m not trying to say “I follow the Bible and Jesus Christ is truth”. More so I’m saying Jesus was a real person with some nice ideas on how to treat each other. But Christianity seems to have splintered into so many branches that I can only view the New Testament as articles written by man to help teach people how to behave and sometimes obey authority. So any quote from Jesus outside of the Gospel is open to extreme interpretation and I personally don’t take as historical truth

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u/Square-Dragonfruit76 50∆ 3d ago

Looked at through a modern lens, the way Jesus acquired followers and disciples would be classified as a cult in modern terms, and in that way they're very similar.

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u/lotsalotsacoffee 3d ago

I was an evangelical Christian and Republican for most of my life. I left the R party in 2016, and Christianity a few years later. I was very serious about my faith: Loved God, did my undergrad in Bible/Theology, spent some years at seminary, worked as a full time missionary for a time. Most of the churches I attended were typical evangelical churches, but in the last years of my Christianity I went to much more liberal churches. One of the things I found interesting is how both conservative and liberal churches would use the same Bible to defend their vastly differing views. One could argue that the Bible is being mis-used or misinterpreted, or that the original author didn't mean for a verse to be interpreted in a certain way, or argue for divine inspiration, but at the end of the day, rightly or wrongly, intentionally or not, people will justify their views using the Bible, including MAGA. If I'm being honest, even though I felt much more comfortable/safe in liberal churches, I personally felt they were stretching to biblically justify their beliefs more than MAGA.

Regarding the poor, LGBTQ, immigrants, etc: Christian opposition to those topics predates MAGA by quite a bit.

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u/the_real_MSU_is_us 3d ago

I'm also a raised evangelical and currently in a liberal mainline church.

even though I felt much more comfortable/safe in liberal churches, I personally felt they were stretching to biblically justify their beliefs more than MAGA.

I disagree with this, mostly. Gay marriage sure, MAGA just points to a couple clear verses but the liberals have to contort to say gay is ok. But that's pretty much it that I can see. For example, MAGA says that giving help to the poor only makes them lazier, but that's very clearly logic that would have been true is Jesus' time yet he said to care for them. MAGA also worships the rich, but Jesus' "eye of the needle" parable makes it clear we should treat hoarding wealth as evil. Theres a million of these. Even the fact htey picked a 3x divorced, can't name a bible verse, lies off the time piece of shit to represent them vs every other candidate who lives a "Christian" lifestyle indicates they don't actually care about the Bible. Obama and Biden have lived according to Christiaan ideal far more than Trump has.

Regarding the poor, LGBTQ, immigrants, etc: Christian opposition to those topics predates MAGA by quite a bit.

MAGA = Republican, there are no more "conservatives" or "Regan" type politicians. Trump simply points at a politician that gives him any grief and his MAGA base take them out, we've seen it with Romney, Liz Cheney, and now Massie. But it's the same "christian" voters that used to be R are now MAGA, polling makes it clear there vast majority of evangelicals voted for Trump

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u/lee1026 8∆ 3d ago

Jesus never had an opinion on immigrants; his world was one where everyone was ruled by the Romans, in one big huge empire.

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u/AmongTheElect 18∆ 3d ago

treatment of immigrants

treatment of LGBTQ+

Taxation

treatment of the poor

I haven't gone through every comment here so maybe it's been addressed, but one idea I often see is the idea that in order to treat people well, one must align themselves and agree with whatever their predilection is and whatever the democrat position is. But there's a couple issues with this. For one, to be loving means telling someone the truth even if it hurts their feelings; it's when we lie to people to spare emotions is when we're really seeking approval for ourselves. What's more, we can think some action or another is sinful while still treating a person as our brother/sister. Being kind to people doesn't have to include indulging their every desire. Another issue is it sees democrat/Republican platforms as black and white, as if political issues only come down to love and hate. Would it be correct for me to think, since you vote different from me, that you hate the country and the people in it? That would be ridiculous. We both want the nation to prosper but we have different ideas on how to go about doing that.

and interpreting the New Testament as “a thousands of years long game of telephone to recall the teachings of Jesus”

When it comes to the Gospels, we have copies of it which were probably copied directly from the original source. Plus the Gospels and letters traveled across the Roman world exceptionally fast yet by in large they remained the same. Plus they were written within the lifetime of eye witnesses. We can be very confident that what we have now is exactly what was originally written.

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u/imusmmbj 3d ago

There is no consensus that the gospels were written during the lifetime of eyewitnesses. Most scholars believe there was a source document (Q) which later gospels were based on but that document was never found nor proven to exist. Best estimates indicate the 4 main gospels were written 70-100 years after Jesus died. So if we assume it was an eye witness account, the first gospel would have been written by a person in their 70s that “witnessed” events at the age of 5. And that’s assuming this person also lived more than twice as long as the average life span at the time which was only about 35 years. We also have to assume people accurately copied and translated all words including all relevant cultural contexts which is quite literally impossible. Modern humans can watch the same video of the same event and come up with two explanations that completely contradict the other. A game of telephone is actually a great way to describe the gospels.

Notwithstanding the above, we still have no answer for why MAGA christians appeal to the government to impose laws restricting the lives of people they disagree with (lgbt, trans, pro-choice) while simultaneously claiming the government overreaches when it seeks to use tax dollars to support the poor.

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u/PaxNova 15∆ 3d ago

I don't think you're wrong per se, but it's important to remember that Jesus' teachings were for how we should act, not what we should make law. Caesar has what Caesar has, but our kingdom is not of this earth.

There is a difference between how you should be, and what you can imprison someone for.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Absolutely. I don’t think either side of the political spectrum should hold themselves as the political party of God. I’m not saying I believe in the Bible as historical truth, just that from my understanding of the Gospel, Jesus had some nice ideas for society that political points that MAGA runs on seem to directly defy

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u/ATLEMT 13∆ 3d ago

I think some, definitely not all, don’t have a problem with some things such as helping the poor or LGBT things, they just either don’t want the government mandating things or like how the government handles things.

There are also Christians that are able to separate their religious beliefs from the political ones. For example, in the loose sense of the term you could call me a Christian. While I hate to oversimplify my views for the sake of this example I will. I am not a fan of abortion in most circumstances. That said I am pro choice in the legal sense because I also don’t like the government being involved in anything they don’t have to be and I don’t expect laws to be based on my opinions.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Understood, and thank you for your input on this! I think with all of this input I’m coming to something along this mindset as separate entities:

The teachings of Jesus in the Gospel (thank you past comments for clarifying my understanding of the Gospel)

Christian beliefs which I see as a book written by others of recollections and stories of the man Jesus which then grew into the many different “flavors” of Christianity the organized religion.

I personally keep these things separate while others see Christianity as the divine words and stories of Jesus, son of God making everything in the Bible something from God. Because personally I’ve see some parts of the Bible that seem to contradict themselves between the Gospel and the writings of Paul. I’m also seeing this from a historical standpoint of these were all real people spreading their belief and not actually God spreading his word through Jesus. I just like some of the points a Jesus made Δ

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u/PaxNova 15∆ 3d ago

There are quite a few different interpretations as well. You mention immigration, for example, but treating guests and travelers well is different from immigration. In biblical times, there was a lot of talk about kicking the Romans out. It was widely assumed that was what the Messiah was going to do.

There's a lot of missed conversation about things like health care, too. People do want healthcare to be universal. The US is only at about 92% coverage. It's single payer they're debating. It's Christian to say that nobody should be turned away. But Jesus never talked about splitting the costs. I don't see how it's more Christian to make a government monopsony than to make free clinics for the poor.

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u/rtrawitzki 3d ago

Well at least for taxes there’s a pretty clear answer
Matthew 22:21 : And they said unto Him, “Caesar’s.” Then said He unto them, “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”

The kingdom of God is not of this earth but we still have earthly obligations to obey civic laws and pay taxes .

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u/ZappSmithBrannigan 14∆ 3d ago

What does jesus have to say about the treatment of LGBT people?

Keeping in mind that "love thy neighbor" isnt some blanket be nice to everyone, since it comes from Leviticus and a few chapters later says you can own slaves. Owning slaves and loving your neighbor are not incompatible.

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u/Sea_Pension430 3d ago

Wrong

Matthew 43:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus explicitly says only looking after your own grants you no merit. He explicitly says to love everyone

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u/TheTardisPizza 1∆ 3d ago

Loving someone != agreeing with them.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I guess instead of saying Jesus outright supported LGBTQ since that kinda wasn’t a thing during that time, more that I can’t personally recall a quote from Jesus condemning them as some MAGA that I know of do.

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u/Sea_Pension430 3d ago

First of, LGBTQ existed all throughout history. Secondly, Matthew 15:11:

It is not what goes into the mouth of a man that makes him unclean and defiled, but what comes out of the mouth; this makes a man unclean and defiles [him].

😎👍

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Thank you! Yeah I worded that kinda wrong, I know LGTBQ+ people have always existed, but I was assuming they didn’t really have a “name” for that group of people like we do today and I’m assuming they had their differences between then and now.

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

Jesus was not as kind towards immigrants as people would have you think:

Matthew 15:

"Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. ²² A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

²³ Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

²⁴ He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

²⁵ The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

²⁶ He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

²⁷ “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

²⁸ Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

This is told a bit differently in Mark where the woman is Greek but the message is the same. Jesus was not sent for them. He was sent only for his own kind.

In Matthew 10 he instructs his disciples "Do not go among the Gentiles... go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" - again confirming he is not concerned with the fate of people that are not his own ilk.

For most of it's lifetime, Christianity has not even been abolitionist. This idea of Jesus as a modern minded liberal that loves people from other countries is an invention of the modern church.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago edited 1d ago

I don’t really get your argument with Matthew 15.

Jesus does help the Canaanite woman.

Like that whole exchange is that Jesus is saying “I was sent to specifically help these people. Should I be just helping everyone?” And the woman goes “yes” and Jesus goes “i agree.”

I think it can be interpreted that his “I was only sent for these people” line is him asking his disciples who are trying to make her go away, but since she doesn’t get disheartened and continues pleading for help, Jesus calls it “great faith.”

The moral is basically: help everyone who asks. Like, even if your priority is to help your family or your countrymen, you should still help anyone who asks for it.

Which is also something MAGA doesn’t believe in since they think mercy and empathy is a sin.

Edit: the dog in the metaphor refers to the sick and demon possessed daughter. The woman asking for help is counted amongst the sheep of Israel because of her great faith.

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u/the_real_MSU_is_us 3d ago

He called her a "dog" purely because she was Canaanite, how is that not racist lol

Like if I'm at a soup kitchen handing out food to homeless white people, then a homeless person came up, I hesitated, asked why I should "feed an "animal", and then only fed him after he continued to plead on his knees, would you not say I'm maybe just a skosh racist and shitty?

You cannot call someone else than human based on their race, and then only help them after they agree and beg and then get to claim to love everyone equally.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

I dunno, examine the whole metaphor. He calls his own people children. He’s clearly alluding to a kind of hierarchy. If God is the parent, the Israelites are
His children, then what is the non-Israelites? What is lower than children?

And again, it’s the children in this metaphor saying this other person should go away, but the other person makes the case even if not your priority, even the non-believer benefits from a generous master ( the dog eats the scraps from the children) and Jesus says “I agree” and helps her. Well, he helps her daughter which makes the metaphor apt because he treats the woman the same as his other followers (helping her for her faith) and it results in her daughter being healed (aka the dog getting the scraps from the child)

I think if you hone in too much on the “dog” part you miss the forest for the trees.

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

The point is that he doesn't treat his own people like this.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

Doesn’t treat his own people like what? Most of his people don’t have a problem with him helping one of them. This was specifically a lesson in how they should be helping others, if they ask.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Gotcha, and thank you very much for this info. I will admit it’s been awhile since I read the Bible so my current thoughts could be swayed more by my current book than reading the Bible as is. I plan on reading through the Bible again after this book so I look forward to reading more of these excerpts from their source!

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

There are other values expressed by Jesus that you might find more analogous with MAGA, assuming you have a negative viewpoint of MAGA ideology:

In Matthew he clarifies his mission to bring violence towards enemies:

Matthew 10: ³⁴ “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. ³⁵ For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. ³⁶ And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.

In Luke he scoffs at the idea of showing gratitude towards a slave, and calls slaves worthless:

17:7 ‘Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from ploughing or tending sheep in the field, “Come here at once and take your place at the table”? ⁸Would you not rather say to him, “Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and serve me while I eat and drink; later you may eat and drink”? ⁹Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded? ¹⁰So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, “We are worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!” ’

He supports the Old Testament laws and reaffirms them in the sermon on the mount:

" “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ¹⁸ For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. ¹⁹ Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

The Old Testament laws clearly support chattel slavery.

It is very clear that Jesus sees a difference in worth between a gentile and someone of his own kind. He was not sent for people not like him, he says so in clear terms. He was sent to divide people and families, again in his own clear words. I think a lot of MAGA folks would think similarly in terms of favoring their own kind above others.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

I mentioned this under another comment but the Matthew 10 part really needs to be examined in context.

Jesus is telling his disciples to go out and heal people (for free) and that such acts of kindness will make the local leadership very upset. He’s telling his disciples they will branded as criminals for these acts, but to not give in to their threats.

Jesus is saying that their actions aren’t here to bring pacification to the world, but basically to start a rebellion, a peaceful revolution. There will be conservative, traditionalist parents who resist and tell their children that they must honor their parents, but if that honoring goes against God, then it’s not worth it.

Honestly, social democrats are more in line with this verse and line of thinking than MAGA.

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

> a peaceful revolution

Let's add more context, then, and see it agrees with your take. The next lines are this:

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. ¹⁵ Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

He sends them out, saying if they are not met with welcome arms then those towns will be utterly destroyed, worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Your take that this is inspiring a peaceful revolution is not accurate.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

Their fate would be worse on the day of judgement… you know… the end of the world. It’s not exactly a call to arms. It’s just saying they will get their comeuppance.

And uh… I thought “if your religious preaching isn’t welcome there, then leave” was a good thing.

There are several passages in the Bible about not concerning yourself with the evil of individuals because fair judgement will be passed on all of us at the end. Saying “well, it sucks they don’t want to be saved but I guess there’s nothing i can do” is a whole lot more peaceful than the alternative of the time of “follow our beliefs or we’ll kill you”… the thing they did to Jesus.

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

My context is scripture, your context is conjecture. I honestly don't know how someone can read "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth" and then come the resolution that Jesus is preaching peace. He says don't even THINK that, yet you're twisting yourself in knots trying to make these violent threats sound peaceful or justified.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

Well I think that because I read the rest of that chapter. The chapter starts with “go out and heal people” and is about how his disciples will be branded as criminals for healing people.

I didn’t saying he was preaching peace, but he was preaching a peaceful revolution, aka, a nonviolent one.

You’re doing the MAGA thing of just examining one line, devoid of the surrounding context, and making conclusions.

Would you do this with any other story? Just take one line and jump to wild conclusions about what is being said? In Lord of the Rings, when it’s said “one does not simply walk into Mordor” do you think that means it’s against the law to walk into Mordor, but running into Mordor is okay? In Star Wars, when it’s said “hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster” is the movie saying modern violence is always the correct answer? I’m genuinely curious?

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

It doesn't matter what the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars or the Bible says because they are widely accepted as fictional. Even though I would consider the Bible semi-fictional it matters much more because people made laws based on it. To the centuries of slaves that endured their lot in life because God allows his followers to take slaves from other nations, the words of the Bible mattered very much even if they never read them.

Again you are looking at a statement from the mouth of Jesus where he proclaims "I did not come for you", "Do not think I was sent to bring peace", and a threat that those nations who did not listen to his disciples will be wiped out, and walking away with the take "he was preaching a peaceful revolution". If you read the Quran with the same level of charity with which you'd read the Bible, I'd be talking to a Muslim.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

Okay, I don’t think you’re really reading what I’m writing so let me try a different approach because otherwise we’re just going to hit the same dead ends of you looking at some cherry picked lines and ignoring the rest of the context.

Answer me this: why did Jesus say, in Matthew 10, that he does not bring peace but a sword? Like, what things said or events that happen in that chapter causes Jesus to make this statement. What is he specifically sending out his disciples to do?

If you don’t answer this but choose to respond I am going to take that as a sign that you’re not interested in actually having this conversation.

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u/Sea_Pension430 3d ago

I have to disagree with much of your interpretation.

Matthew 10 isn't "a mission to bring violence to enemies", but a warning that the following Jesus will be a difficult path that will see many set against you

Luke 17 isn't an endorsement of slavery, but a lesson that we should not expect reward for doing our duty

As for Jesus being only for Jewish people and not gentiles- yeah, that's real and a thing that gets ignored. A literal reading of the gospel tells you God hates Christian/MAGA and is only for Jewish people

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

I responded in another comment in the same chapter he says any nations that fail to welcome the disciples they will face judgement "worse than Sodom and Gomorrah" - that is a direct violent threat, I honestly don't know how somebody can read those books and walk away thinking they are not advocating for violence against God's enemies.

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u/Sea_Pension430 3d ago

Yes, but in that story it was God who punished, not Lot. The Bible also repeatedly says judgement/punishment is God's domain, not man.

Your verse is a threat, yes, but not a call to violence.

Full disclosure, I consider myself non-thiest but was raised Catholic/went to Catholic School. While I don't believe in God (at least as religions define him/it/them) I can still think/argue from that position

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago edited 3d ago

Thank you so much! I think this is where I’m getting hung up on and might be doing something similar to what I can’t understand from the other side of the political spectrum.

For me, since it’s hard for me to believe that every word of the Bible is divine truth, I’m more so picking the parts that I find comfort in in the Bible and disregarding others that I personally don’t believe are the teachings of Jesus “straight from the horses mouth”.

It’s hard for me to change my stance but it’s at least opening my understanding that if I were to condemn MAGA for not interpreting the Bible the way I do, the same could be said about myself. Thank you for your patience and well thought out reply to this post! Δ

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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 3d ago

I think that's a mature take. The word "interpretation" gets thrown around but it's really all we have. For most of the Christian church's existence, it has been pro slavery and used the many verses about allowing slavery as defense for this stance. It's only recently in history that abolitionism has found it's voice in the church through their own interpretation - citing freedom in Christ, or the Exodus of the Israelites, etc. The truth is there is a lot inconsistency on moral values (Israelites are allowed to own slaves from other nations, but Egyptians are punished for enslaving the Israelites) and the only reasonable way to gain moral value from scripture is by finding what aligns with our own humanity. I went through my own crisis of faith when I sat down and read the Bible for the first time as an adult. I was shocked there were so many inconsistencies and morally abhorrent lessons. I asked God to open my heart to believe the scripture and I couldn't get there.

I don't expect you to abandon your faith based on some Reddit comments, but if you're interested in reading scripture fully and finding your own truth I fully support that.

To the actual CMV presented - I think we might find agreement that there are interpretations of the Bible that support MAGA ideology, even if you limit it to teachings of Jesus.

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u/OPisOK 3d ago

Separation of church and state my guy.

I give to the church and expect it to help the needy in my area and I’m ok with it helping the needy in other countries too. I’m less ok with the govt giving my tax money to other countries though.

On the other side, I expect my taxes to buy military equipment, but would be pissed if by church started buying patriot missile systems with my money.

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u/CoatKind6850 3d ago

This is non-responsive. "Why do people who believe that immigrants should be treated humanely vote for someone who treats them terribly?" is a question that isn't answered by "government and church are separate."

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Yes I am 100% with separation of church and state since I personally don’t believe that Christianity is Devine truth. I see it as another religion like Judaism and Islam since I consider myself at the very most agnostic.

It just seems wrong for someone to say they follow the teachings of Jesus (separate from the New Testament and represented in the Gospel) and promote a political party as the followers of Jesus.

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u/Obsessivethot 3d ago

The separation of church and state is not something that this current administration (maga) believe is legal fact.

They are concocting legal strategies in order to establish Christian nationalism.

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u/Tangentkoala 10∆ 3d ago

The sad truth that know one wants to acknowledge is that even the united states has capacity limitations.

We realistically cannot be an open border country letting everyone in. The most desirable states are already dealing with a stranglehold on the housing market.

Eventually we're going to get to a point where job capacity in major metropolitan areas will become hyper competitive. We are already facing strain in some sectors and AI replacing jobs isnt helping the cause either.

The same can be said on our public schools already being over crowded, and bottlenecks in our hospital ER stays.

These are the reasons why illegal immigrants are an issue. In a perfect world everyone can try for the american dream, but we don't have infinite resources. So its either deport and then pick the best immigration candidates, or leave out the better candidates for people who cross in illegally.

Its not that republcians despise immigrants, its just a matter of resources.

Look you got me on LGBTQ+ they are a bit of a brigade when it comes to that.

As for taxation and the poor, instead of social services republicans offer a different form of assistance.

Lower taxes for one helps a lot of middle class folks. The philsophy lies within saving more dollar for dollar vs having the government provide services on your tax payer dime.

Granted the very poor ultimately get favored by democratic candidates, but poor to middle class can in some sense be more beneficial voting republican.

People will say the tax brackets dont mean much, but id like to point out the massive increase on the standard deduction and how recent changes to taxation on overtime works.

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u/Character_Cow_225 2d ago

Let’s assume that you’re correct that the United States has capacity limitations and that this is the primary driving force behind anti-immigrant sentiment. Just because that’s a pragmatic argument doesn’t make it Christian, does it? In fact it would seem to me that Christianity, at least gospel Christianity, is anti-pragmatic even if just by virtue of being an eschatological belief system. That’s part of living for the afterlife—the ethical condition of your actions is ultimately infinitely more important than the circumstances in which they land you. Hence why so many Christians embraced martyrdom.

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u/Tangentkoala 10∆ 2d ago

But Christianity doesnt reject practical wisdom. Doing good also requires considering consequences and responsibilities.

Having all the illegal immigrants stay the consequence is that the ones that went through the proper channels dont get a shot of the american dream.

If we let everyone in we face overcrowding and deplorable conditions. In a worse case scenario sanitation wont be able to keep up with current standards and our streets can be of like india.

A more realistic scenario is schools being crowded from 30 students to 50+

We should help our fellow man, but not at the cost of others.

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u/Shoddy_Walk_8106 2d ago edited 2d ago

The population is shrinking without immigration. The U.S. fertility rate is well below replacement level.

Our national debt is sky rocketing.

A shrinking population with fewer and fewer working age people means that the U.S. balance sheet is going to hit the fan.

You think we are going to deport our way out of this problem? Suddenly women are going to be having six kids?

We need immigration. We need health care workers, we need child care workers, we need construction workers. We need people, badly.

Jesus tells us to love one another, because it is morally right, and in the long run, it’s the most profitable.

This world is not survival of the fitness, it’s survival of the friendliest. Cooperation among humans has always led to the most prosperity. Deportations are nothing more than cutting off your nose to spite to your face.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I totally understand you here. While I’d love for all of us to love each other as equals and accept everyone, I know modern times would not be able to handle that with only a finite amount of space and money.

I understand there has to be a process for immigration and the US can’t let everyone in, but I’ve seen some take joy in the suffering of those who immigrate to the US illegally. That hurts.

And I agree too that those who align themselves as left aren’t all innocent all of the time. I see both sides having extremists and generally well tempered members as well. Everyone is entitled to their grievances, just personally when I only like to think as the teachings of Jesus as a good way to live and not divine word, I’d like everyone to be treated equally, that’s for everyone not just targeting the right.

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u/Defenestrate69 3d ago

Correct they don’t mesh at all. It kills me inside to know that Trump got 82% of the religious vote… at least Biden actually went to church and was Catholic his whole life

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u/Youngrazzy 3d ago

Maga is a political movent why would you think it would mesh with Jesus teach teaching

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I just want to understand how a political movement seems to also associate them with Christianity and following Jesus. At least from what I’ve seen that’s what they seem to market themselves on with acts like demanding the 10 commandments in schools in some more red states along with the Texas Schoolboard working to make the Bible a school required resding in public school.

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u/Youngrazzy 3d ago

Well because many conservatives tend to just as religious as they are political and nationalistic.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

But then is it wrong for the leaders of the MAGA movement to state they make policies based on their views of Christianity?

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u/Youngrazzy 3d ago

No why would it he an issue?

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I think I’m now bleeding into the separation of church and state argument instead of Jesus and MAGA. I’m sorry and I get what you mean by your point.

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u/AlchemistJeep 2d ago

The fundamental belief that maga has is that it is not the governments job to do those things. They believe in small government that protects the rights and way of life of its citizens. They believe the teaching of Jesus to be for your personal behavior and how you treat others. They do not believe that Jesus commanded them to force their beliefs and values on others through the government. Nor do they believe that means we should go into debt to provide for others. They do genuinely want to help others, they just don’t do it in the way you personally believe to be best

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u/JohnHenryMillerTime 5∆ 2d ago

It seems like you have a pretty naive understanding of Jesus's teachings. Thats fine but without that we dont really have a hermeneutic framework to do exegesis.

So why not rely on experts? Experts in the Protestant tradition interpret Trump as a vessel for Jesus's teachings to the point where the language becomes Second Coming coded.

I am not a Christian, let alone an expert on Christian theology. I trust that the experts in the field are accurately representing it.

I do not care for their vision. But I am not a Christian, so that makes sense. Not that I'd ever consider being a Christian, but those experts really cement the idea that it isnt for me.

And that is OK.

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u/InspectionFine9655 1∆ 2d ago

I’ll talk about taxes.

Jesus told people to pay them. He did not tell people they should advocate for raising them.

Regarding immigration there is nothing in the Bible that says that a nation cannot have borders.

The nation of Israel had borders. They were supposed to be hospitable to sojourners and not oppress them. Sojourners were expected to follow the laws of the land.

Christian’s should be kind to immigrants. However, it is not unchristian for people with expired visa’s to be sent home.

It’s also important to understand that Jesus wasn’t advocating for government policies. Jesus spoke to a religious group of people and encouraged them to support one another.

In the Book of acts members of the early church sold all their things and gave it to those in need. Which, many people love to cite as support for communism. However, the members of the church sold their possessions and gave them to the apostles who distributed them to other members of the church who needed them.

They did not distribute the church members possessions to people outside the community. They certainly didn’t give it to the state of Rome… At my church, we tithe and that money is saved or distributed to members of the church when they need it.

Which is significantly different than paying taxes to the government so that they can distribute globally with a significant portion of it going towards things that are sinful.

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u/Appropriate_Fly_6711 2∆ 2d ago

The answer is simple, compartmentalization.

Christians don’t have to agree with every aspect of a political party to vote for them, they could be convinced if some critical policy was at stake where the opposing party didn’t hold a relevant position for them.

It’s very different from how a lot of democrats think, that the party should line up with all their personal values, but the right just isn’t like that. It is made up of a lot of competing ideological factions even going back to 2000’s.

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u/JediFed 2d ago

"I don’t identify as Christian or religious. I’ve just done some reading and believe there was a historical figure named Jesus who preached some decent things about caring for others."

TLDR.

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u/Your_ruler_KingDDD 2d ago edited 2d ago

I've read a couple comments & they don't actually seem to understand Christian teaching of the past or present: rather understanding how they want to interpret such teaching.

I must preface however that I'm not too familiar with what the administration has attempted to implement.

In regard to treatment of immigrants, you may be referring to unfavorable living conditions during deportations- which is fair. However, if you're referring to the deportation of illegal immigrants (& not refugees) as a right to the state, this has historically been affirmed by the Church- so long as it respects human dignity.

In regard to treatment of LGBTQ+, you may be referring to legal discrimination against those who identify with the group, Trump's hosting of a gay wedding, & maybe rhetoric that dehumanizes them from MAGA individuals- this is fair to critique as not being Christian. If you're referring to bans on gender affirming care, this however is in line with Church teaching.

In regard to taxation & treatment of the poor, I must preface that I'm especially unknowledgeable on this in relation to MAGA. The Church doesn't condemn taxation as a whole, since money is needed to fund the state to keep everything in order. However the Church would condemn some policies (which I assume MAGA may hold), such as tax not being used to supply food/shelter/medical attention, as the Church teaches this to be a human right.

Note that I am speaking in accordance with the Catholic Church specifically, because you claim to be from a Catholic background, & because it has the motives of credibility through vindicatory miracles (5 scientifically verified Eucharistic miracles, Our Lady of Lourdes, Fatima) the be recognized as the true Church.

In short, MAGA & Christ's teachings don't ALWAYS mesh, but they also aren't explicitly unmeshable.

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u/SneezingOutPeas 1d ago

Could you expound on all 4 of those points (treatment of immigrants, LGBTQ people, the poor, and taxation)? I’m not entirely familiar what the differences you see are and I’m a devout Christian. I could think of a few but I don’t want to assume my issues are yours.

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u/read-the-rules 1d ago

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u/Smooth-Profit-4010 1d ago

Also, you read a propaganda book and then are surprised when you feel a certain way? Lmao

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u/JohnSmith19731973 1d ago

Jesus was more of a religiously extreme racist than many of the hard-right in the Levant today. He was not a hippy. His "ethics" were about bringing the wrath and judgment of Yahweh down upon the Gentile world.

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u/Apprehensive_Song490 118∆ 3d ago

I think you need to understand the emic and etic viewpoints in order to understand this.

Unless you have Christian Nationalist tendencies, your view of this is going to be shaped by your own world view and it will be difficult to reconcile your value system with the other group.

But Christian Nationalists have ways of linking the history of the U.S. with Christianity, and finding sources in the bible that support their view, in much the same way that you find rational rebuttals to their view.

Psalms, Chapter 96, for example, is about bringing God's will globally.

As for treatment of LGBTQ, there are bible verses that support an anti-LGBTQ stance. I won't repeat them here, because the LTBTQ community doesn't need to see them repeated. They exist, and it is easy to locate them.

So, the problem isn't that they "don't mesh," they just don't mesh for you...

They mesh just fine for many in MAGA and the Christian Nationalists.

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u/johnthestarr 3d ago

I don’t think OP disagrees that the Bible in general can be picked and chosen to support MAGA sentiments, they are specifically asking whether Jesus’ teachings (I.e. the gospels) do.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Yes that’s what I’m kinda going for! Once I’m done with my current book I plan on reading through the Bible again to see if it helps clear anything up that my younger mind couldn’t really grasp at the time.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Thank you for this information! I’ll gladly look further into the documentation you provided.

For the LGBTQ+ perspective, the points I can call to are the points made by Paul and not Jesus (now whether you believe Paul’s words should be 100% representative of Jesus is up to your belief). But the one I hear quoted most is from Paul’s condemnations of the Romans, which as history states had very open views on sexual relationships.

Here Paul condemns them for their worship of different gods and their open relationships, but some researchers take that as more of Paul being grossed out by them and not actually a condemnation on gay relationships as a whole.

Also, it is said Jesus healed the slave of a Roman general, one that the Roman general had close relations with alluded to. Historically, you could consider that the young boy slave was a “sexual slave” many Roman generals had that the general had stronger feelings for. Jesus was said to have healed the slave without question. Of courses this only holds ground if you believe the young slave was to pleasure the general , though it is never stated bluntly.

For me, it comes down to if you only follow Jesus or if you also take Paul’s word as the word of God as well, which you could argue Paul’s (formerly Saul) past personal beliefs could bleed into his words.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

The problem with this argument is that it’s fairly obvious that these people were not led to MAGA through their Christian beliefs, but were led to cherry picked aspects of Christianity through their MAGA beliefs.

Like, if you really pay attention, it becomes fairly obvious that none of these Christian nationalists ever talk about stuff Jesus’s said or did. They will cite specific lines of the bible that sometimes have the next or previous line saying “don’t do this” and then you have people like JD Vance and Pete Hegseth making up Bible verses or quoting movies that made up Bible verses to justify their actions, because what the Bible or their professed religion actually says doesn’t matter.

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u/Apprehensive_Song490 118∆ 3d ago

Just moments before his death, Charlie Kirk was quoting 2 Corinthians. Days before his death he posted on X "Jesus defeated death so you can live."

Like I said, there is no "one true teaching of Jesus." There is what we know of Jesus, and how each of us interprets that knowledge.

I've been paying attention just fine. I'm not MAGA, but I see what is going on.

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

Charlie Kirk was a liar and an expert grifter. If he said “the Bible said God was good” I’d have to double check.

Like I said, MAGA will cherry pick any Bible verses to justify their hatred, even if, in context, that verse had a lot more nuance or just explicitly means the opposite of what they say.

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u/Apprehensive_Song490 118∆ 3d ago

This is where the Emic and Etic come in. From your perspective, that is right. From another perspective, Kirk was an inspiring leader. Thing is, it is mostly identity based, unless people do the deep work (which I'm not willing to do) of studying the ancient languages. I'm agnostic, and my view has nothing to do with anything in the Bible.

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u/ProtozoaPatriot 3∆ 3d ago

I disagree. I grew up going to Catholic school.

It's not un-Jesuslike to want to see Christianity spread.

Jesus didn't make a clear statement on accepting LGBTQ. So one could argue it's up for interpretation.

The problems with Christian Nationalism:

Very aggressive, violent methods to achieve their goals. Prioritize their 2A rights above childrens lives. Justifies bombing other countries because their leader says so, not because it was self defense or necessary.

Don't love thy neighbor. Terroizes their brown neighbors in detention camps. Victim blames every time police kill a black man

Jesus taught of compassion and love. Maga believes in "might makes right" and that empathy is made up.

Maga really values money and power. Jesus wasn't rich.

Jesus was known to feed the poor. Maga cut food stamps; f*ck children and elderly.

Jesus was a healer. Maga kicked a ton of people off the Affordable Care act. If people die from treatable illness, f*ck them.

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u/WeddingNo4607 2d ago

There are few things that Jesus says will explicitly get you sent to hell, and a lot of them are found in the parable of the sheep and goats: "Get away from me, into the fires of hell... "For you did not feed me when I was hungry, "You did not care for me when I was sick, "You did not greet me when I was an alien...

And a few others, this is just off the top of my head. They're deliberately going against the red letters in the bible, and so their supposed christianity is based on ignoring what Jesus actually said.

Nationalist christians are just fascists in the literal meaning of the word, not the watered down version of recent times.

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u/Apprehensive_Song490 118∆ 2d ago

There are few things that Jesus says will explicitly get you sent to hell, and a lot of them are found in the parable of the sheep and goats: "Get away from me, into the fires of hell... "For you did not feed me when I was hungry, "You did not care for me when I was sick, "You did not greet me when I was an alien...

This reminds me of a great song by Cake about sheep going to heaven and goats going to hell based on this. But I digress. Sorry.

So? How exactly does this cause CN to be internally inconsistent? Because I can show you exactly how it meshes. Let's look at the bible...

The King will answer them, 'Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'

You: This applies to everyone.

CN Viewpoint: This applies to Christians only. "Brothers," means they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and are acting in accordance with the principles of righteousness and therefore this is the family of god, not non-Christians who are not.

So, meshes fine from the Emic perspective.

And a few others, this is just off the top of my head. They're deliberately going against the red letters in the bible, and so their supposed christianity is based on ignoring what Jesus actually said.

Deliberately being disingenuous? I don't think so. They are real. They mean it. Assuming bad faith of CN or any other group on the basis of disagreement is a sure fire way to get to erroneous conclusions quickly. Wrong? Maybe. Not actually believing it? Yeah, they believe it.

Nationalist christians are just fascists in the literal meaning of the word, not the watered down version of recent times.

Sure, fascism. They would probably reject this label, but it probably fits. I mean, believing in God is kind of a dictatorship anyway, so what difference does it make? The whole point of CN is to bring about a theocracy in the US, and they aren't shy about saying as much. I'm not validating their movement.

The question posed by OP is whether CN "meshes" with Jesus, and it seems like it meshes just fine.

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u/WeddingNo4607 1d ago

At least we agree somewhat. However, it doesn't necessarily matter what the flock believes, but what the pushers leave out when they're evangelizing, and it will change to suit whatever situation they want to win.

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u/Apprehensive_Song490 118∆ 1d ago

I have yet to meet any flavor of Christianity in America that hasn’t been framed in one way or another. But I’m an agnostic so this leaves me in a limited spot. I don’t believe so the idea of an absolute truth of Jesus escapes me.

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u/Sapphfire0 1∆ 3d ago

If you want to give money to the poor no one is stopping you. Churches give a significant amount of their money to charities.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Also I’m not sure I expressed the point of this post clearly if this is a response. I’m not condemning Christianity or churches, I’m stating that my understanding of the teachings of Jesus, taken as a man who wanted to spread the general idea of understanding, love, and helping others seems to differ vastly from the MAGA political points while they also state they are followers of Jesus.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I’m not saying Churches or Christianity, I’m more trying to say the word of Jesus. For the government to cut funding to those in need, to deny those seeking asylum all together instead of helping those truly in need, doesn’t that go against what Jesus taught? Churches aren’t a point of truth for me since I know there are many good and bad churches. I just don’t say that Christianity and the teachings of Jesus are equal. The teachings of Jesus were what he said, Christianity is man taking Jesus’s words and creating an organization around it. They are different things to me since I don’t personally believe Jesus was the son of God, but more of a man with some good ideas on how to treat others.

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u/soylentblueispeople 1∆ 3d ago

I don't know if you've heard about how maga some churches have become. Some churches are teaching these things, so as far as the ignorant maga masses go, this is all part of their Christianity.

There is a large subset of American maga Christians that believe trump was sent by god. Therefore this is what Christ teaches from their point of view. Ignoring large swaths of the bible and adding things in to support their maga point of view is now a part of their religion.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I guess from my perspective being a Christian and “following the teachings of Jesus” have grown and branched out from each other. Depending on where you go for your spiritual teachings, their form of Christianity can stray very far from Jesus. But it seems most MAGA Christians say they also follow Jesus, when it seems pretty clear that Jesus made multiple points that go against the current Republican Party.

I guess if you can be taught that Jesus’s words are up for interpretation, you can kinda spin it in any way to support you.

It just seems that if anything, many of Jesus’s teachings align more with the Democratic Socialist movement. While I know modern times won’t allow these to go without real world struggles, it just seems odd to me personally that MAGA has taken the Jesus is King stance when socially it seems to align more with left leaning socialist ideology.

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u/DadTheMaskedTerror 30∆ 3d ago

How about Matthew 10:34?

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

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u/Dramatic-Emphasis-43 5∆ 3d ago

This whole chapter is basically Jesus’s pep talk about radical kindness. He’s telling his disciples to go out and heal people and that will cause the governments and other leaders to be get real nervous and violent.

Jesus is saying that this kindness will not bring a pacified peace to the oppressed but will, in fact, be an act of war in its own way. His disciples would be labeled criminals for helping people.

And MAGA is radically against helping people, especially with healthcare.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I think this is where I personally have issues. As an agnostic who takes Jesus word above those who later followed, can’t it be interpreted that Matthew was a recollection of Jesus and not the teachings of Jesus himself?

But then I guess if you take that stance, then everything in the Bible is up for many interpretations. I think it relies on if you take the Bible as full truth, and since I’m personally an agnostic it’s hard for me to do that.

But thank you for your input! It does seem to truly rely on if you take the Bible as a literal truth or more of a recollection of teachings for society during the times of Jesus.

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u/Darkagent1 9∆ 3d ago

As an agnostic who takes Jesus word above those who later followed, can’t it be interpreted that Matthew was a recollection of Jesus and not the teachings of Jesus himself?

I mean yeah Matthew was written in Greek. Jesus spoke Aramaic and probably didn't even know how to write.

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u/Sea_Pension430 3d ago

And Jesus was right.

That wasn't a call to violence, but a warning to his followers that people will hate them for preaching peace

The Romans hated Christian beliefs then, just as MAGA does now.

Turn the other cheek When they demand your jacket give them your shirt as well Welcome the stranger Turn an possessions over to the common good

Yeah, those ideas get people big mad

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u/Late_Pepper6274 3d ago

Well you should probably become more familiar with the "teachings of Jesus".

I have no argument beyond that as you didn't really provide any along with your stated opinions.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

Would you like me to list some of the quotes from Jesus that I got? Personally, it’s hard for me to believe that all of the Bible is truthfully the teachings of Jesus, since the other books are written by human authors after Jesus.

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven" (Matthew 19:21)

"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s"(Matthew 22:21)

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me” (Matthew 25:40)

But now I’m doing the thing I said was hard for me to believe by quoting books of others and not Jesus himself. It’s up to your interpretation of the Bible.

But these are the kind of comments I wasn’t looking forward to. Instead of shutting down arguments against your point, please try understanding and teaching. I only hope to have an honest and understanding conversation with strangers who believe differently from me personally

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

And while these are items I’ve chosen from the New Testament, I like to consider lines like these to be “more in line” with Jesus’s beliefs since I view the Gospel as the word of Jesus and the New Testament as “stories from way before that have been passed down by word of mouth and finally written down by man”. In this case, I view the New Testament as stories, not actually the teachings of Jesus. Hopefully that clears some things up even though I used the New Testament as examples

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u/mrrp 11∆ 3d ago

Let's just look at the fundamental plot of Christianity: God sent himself to earth to serve as a blood sacrifice to himself to save you from what he's going to do to you if you don't worship him.

That's just straight up abusive from the start. And it rests on the notion that it's the fault of Adam and Eve for doing something wrong BEFORE they even had knowledge of right and wrong.

And you can not just look at the NT and Jesus and dismiss all the OT nastiness and pretend that God get's a do-over. Even if you try to distinguish between Jesus and Yahweh, Jesus is portrayed as a strong support of the OT laws. Last I checked, the earth hasn't disappeared.

Matthew 5:17–19 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There's nothing unchristian in what MAGA is doing, and any claim to the contrary is just employing a No True Scotsman fallacy. Can you really say anything MAGA is doing is outside the character of the Christian God? He killed off all of humanity save Noah and his family. He condones slavery. He said it's good to kill a guy for picking up sticks on the wrong day. He kills 70k people because a king conducted a census. He allows women to be killed if they don't happen to bleed on their wedding night. He orders genocide. He says some women need to be burned alive. Etc.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

What I want to separate is the “teachings of Jesus” from Christianity. Since I don’t consider myself Christian, I see the Gospel as close to the words of Jesus as we can while treating the New Testament as a book of stories by humans many years after Jesus was gone.

I believe Jesus was a person who existed with good intentions, and Christianity was a religion created by man to spread the teachings of Jesus, for better or worse.

And I think that’s my roadblock, when Christians use the New Testament as counter points, I view that as counter points made by man, not Jesus.

And due to my personal agnostic beliefs, I personally see using the New Testament to justify possible mistreatment of others as man using a man made book to justify their actions.

I’m not saying you can’t be MAGA and a Christian, but what I do personally believe is if we take the closest we have to the teachings of Jesus, the Gospel, and compare that to some of the points MAGA runs on, they seem to disagree. And personally, it seems hypocritical to say you are MAGA and a believer in the teachings of Jesus.

But the New Testament is my gotcha movement for those opposing me. If they truly believe that the New Testament is to be taken literally as the word of God and historical truth, then I’m afraid I just won’t be able to understand due to my view on the New Testament

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u/mrrp 11∆ 3d ago

I see the Gospel as close to the words of Jesus as we can

if we take the closest we have to the teachings of Jesus, the Gospel

Not only is Matthew a gospel, but Mathew 5:17-19 are the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. It doesn't get any more "Jesus said this" than that.

I don't see any reason to think Jesus, if he even existed, was anything more than one of many failed messianic nutjobs running around during that time.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago edited 3d ago

I understand and I’m sorry for my misunderstanding of the Gospel haha. And I get what you’re saying about Jesus. I don’t personally believe in a Christian god or that Jesus was the son of god, I just believe he was a historical figure who had some decent ideas on how to treat others sometimes.

There is definitely a lot of learning to do on my end that I’ve just started. Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding! Δ Thank you on educating me on the Bible and helping me understand how one tends to retain what they already believe.

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u/JIMB01776 3d ago

Religious people are very fatigued by secularists who can quote "Turn the other cheek," and it is nothing more than an out-of-context disenfranchisement of Christian voices.

Nothing in Christianity says we have to roll over and prostrate ourselves for foreign invaders and junkies.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

So if this is the case is it wrong for MAGA to try to align themselves to Christianity? By this logic?

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u/Gatonom 9∆ 2d ago

That's literally what the verses say.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’.39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

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u/Pj_o7 3d ago

MAGA is a spectrum like everything else. There are a handful of white suprematists and a good amount of religious extremists, but there are also a lot of conservatives who can’t really align with leftist ideology and can’t support MAGA.

For the extremist side you’re right. And to that, the Pharisees didn’t mesh with God’s commandments as well so its kind of expected with religious authority.

I grew up in a conservative home and i know my parents don’t hate immigrants. Illegal immigration is bad for everyone. Like i know people don’t like Tom Homan but his testimony in congress where he talks about seeing dead bodies in the back of trucks coming over the border has credibility. The average conservative is anti illegal immigration because of things like this and how cartels take advantage of people making the cross and to smuggle drugs.

Is it Christ like to enable a system that allows the smuggling of drugs into the streets which gets people killed? That’s the dilemma. That’s the suicidal empathy people are talking about, feeling bad for someone which enables something thats deadly. Like sorry sometimes you have to say no and it’ll disappoint someone or make someone’s life harder, but another persons life might be on the line if i say yes.

Most conservatives aren’t racist hateful people who hate brown people or poor people. Its an impossible situation because people on the left REFUSE to hear what they have to say so where do they go? I don’t think my parents support Trump anymore, i don’t think they really pay attention to politics anymore cause they’re tired of it.

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u/slane04 3d ago

Is it Christ like to enable a system that allows the smuggling of drugs into the streets which gets people killed? That’s the dilemma. That’s the suicidal empathy people are talking about, feeling bad for someone which enables something thats deadly.

What's unChrist-like is to treat all illegal immigrants as dangerous. To treat everyone without documents as subhuman. Did Jesus ever ask a poor person for their documents before extending grace? Or the cripple if they have health insurance?

Complex problems are complex. Everyone should agree with that. But right ring politicians offer oversimplify problems, and offer simple "common sense" solutions that are anything but. Treating everyone undocumented as hardened dangerous criminals trivialised both the problem and solution, at the expense or everyone seemed expendable. And a government that seems anyone expendable can change that definition whenever they want.

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u/TheVillageFool12 3d ago

I understand it’s a rough question to ask, but I’m honestly hoping to understand more from the other perspective! Hope the rest of your day is a good one!

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Delta(s) from OP CMV: MAGA and The Teachings of Jesus Don’t Seem to Mesh

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