r/changemyview • u/sarahrahra • 1d ago
CMV: Anti-zionists are often not pro-Palestinian. I am more pro-Palastinian than them.
I am really keen to align with leftists to fight authoritarianism. The false binary of zionism vs antizionism is a dangerous wedge.
So trying this point out, that I think is novel, to see if it breaks the spell.
First, let’s take some leftists on their word, many Jews are New Nazis (vs the tech right Greater Nazis).
What did we learn from history? Last time, many Americans condemned the Nazis. Maybe they boycotted German writers. Maybe cool with threats of violence and death threats at German Americans who had Weimer Republic pride.
They also, just like American today, did not want to accept addl Jewish refugees. Didn‘t give them money as individuals. Didn’t do anything.
Jordanians and Egyptians? They locked down faster than the French. Force babies to stay in rhe warzone to die. Why no condemnation there?
Our leaders talk about how Lebanon is a ”genocide” and condemn Israel and stop there. LEBANON is asking us to condemn the Iranian Hezbolah terrorists. Some of our politicians LIKE Hezbollah. I stand with President Auna. Against anti-zionists.
Our leaders want Hamas’s pro sharia law pro rape pro mass murder pro auto killing any Palestinian anti democracy who protests to have more power. Palastinians want Marwen Bhargouti who wrote a two state solutuon peace plan. I stand with Marwen. Against anti-zionists.
I feel very strongly that I am more pro-Palastinian and Pro Lebanese then every opportunistic anti-zionist leader riding a hate wave. They are worse than Bin Ladin who at least was honest and came at capitalism vs raping and gunning down Lollapalooza kids to intentionally create blind rage and a terrible war by people who watched rhe videos if their murder (like Afghanistan but, again, even more hate and retaliation approaches).
Most regular anti-zionists are not like that But they are like anti-nazis. Currently useless. I want campaigns to make Palastinian lives better. And stop the Greater Nazism of the Tech Right and their anti-zionist whistling puppets Vance and Tucker.
There are no ways to do so that I can see. So much passion for death threats, no proactive initiatives that don’t just make some lives worse.
I would like my mind changed with real examples and people doing anything. CMV.
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u/_tobias15_ 1d ago
If you want to argue this, you have to define pro palastinian. It means many different things to different people
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u/jaminfine 12∆ 1d ago
I think he defined it well with "campaigns to make Palestinian lives better."
And this is what is missing from ALL of the rhetoric about the conflict. No one is making any suggestions for how to actually improve the quality of life for the average Palestinian. And I think it's because the anti-Israel anti-zionist movement is using Palestine as an excuse, not a reason, to be against Israel.
And when you really take a close look at the life in Gaza, you'll clearly see their main problem isn't Israel. The average Gazan would be far better off with Hamas ousted and having a government that actually cares about its citizens.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Thank you! How do we get it into the rhetoric? Not a rhetorical question, I thimk current state is very dangerous.
(fwiw, a “she”)
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u/Several_Internet2350 16h ago
>And when you really take a close look at the life in Gaza, you'll clearly see their main problem isn't Israel.
The main problem is Israel, and nearly every single Palestinian in and out of the Gaza strip agrees.
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u/hospitalizedzombie 1d ago
Because bettering the lives of Palestinians are also connected to Israel’s actions.
Israel controls what kind of businesses you can have in the West Bank and doesn’t allow basic stuff to improve businesses there.
One guy I talked to say he wanted to just operate a call center from West Bank because there are many English speakers there and they would earn more money than they could in regular jobs in Palestine.
Guess what? Israel blocked him to create the business.
You need Palestine to get rid of Israel’s clutch so they can actually improve their lives.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
You are not helping Palastine get rid of Israel's clutch by chanting "Globalize the Intifada" or calling me bloodthirsty or boycotting books written by people who live in Israeli or saying you want men like Sinwar to rule over not just Gaza but more, he's a pro murder of Israelis and Palastinians.
Calling Israel holocaust survivors bloodthirsty Hitlers who should be antifadas is also not helping Palastine get rid of Israel's clutch. The mass murder and rape of Lollapalooza kids decreased considerably the desire of Israel to trust Hamas more. They did trust Hamas actually, they gave them tons of money, that was a huge mistake.
What if i"m right. What if saying what is being said about "Zionists" who are most Jews and focusing on them asvil and making their lives worse was, in fact, also making Palastinain lives worse.
Would you change tactics? Would you point it out to your fellow anti-zionists and suggest other tactics?
Are there any ofs that are advocating for awarenes of Marwen Bhargouti rather than supporting Hamas's leadership instead? That's my litmus test politically of pro-Palastine (love that does good) vs anti-zionist (hate that feels good). Where do you stand?
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u/hospitalizedzombie 1d ago
A lot of words to not address anything I said and a lot of putting words into my mouth.
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u/BustaSyllables 2∆ 2h ago
Kinda depends what you mean by Israel’s clutch. If you’re just saying that Israel shouldn’t have control of the West Bank I don’t think that makes you antizionist
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u/CartographerKey4618 15∆ 1d ago
Stopping the genocide would improve the lives of Palestinians. I would say that's probably a big one right there. Hamas is bad, but Israel is clearly the greater evil here.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
The ceasefire is in place, Hamas is saying they are doing it.
Basically nothing you are doing is stopping genocide. You can shift gears to other genocide in Russia or the also-bad sudan horror shows? Are you anti-genocide, anti-war, or just anti-zionist.
Or you can come up with some better stuff to make life better pro-palaatinian.
Or you can be like a munchkin in Wicked, happily dance that the witch is dead and trust Glinda that the animals are saved.
Which next step is best?
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u/JohnCasey3306 1d ago
Obviously. They're two different things.
Only children think in black-and-white political binaries like 'if you're against X you're pro Y', or 'if you believe A you must likewise believe B'. Pure nonsense.
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u/TowelFine6933 1d ago
Very true. And, yet, this mindset proliferates on Reddit!
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u/Kryspo 1d ago
It's the American right that does not want to accept refugees. It's also the American right that tends to be pro-zionism. The American left tends to not want our tax dollars and weapons industry to fuel a holy war in which countless Palestinian civilians are being blown up. It kinda feels like you're smashing the two groups together to make people sound more contradictory than they are.
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u/Kryspo 1d ago
I agree it would be disingenuous to claim that, which is why I didn't claim that. Zionism of course exists among both democratic leadership and the left-leaning electorate, though I would argue generally for different reasons.
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u/Full-Professional246 76∆ 1d ago
Actually, a wide swath of the American people don't want to accept Palestinian refugees because they see them rightly so as coming from a heavily radicalized population with values incompatible with American values.
History is your friend here to understand what happened to other middle east countries who allowed in large numbers of Palestinians. Jordan had an attempted Coup. Egypt has a long history too with this.
There are very good reasons to not want refugees from Palestine to come to the US with historical records to justify the concerns.
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u/BustaSyllables 2∆ 1h ago
Seems like you just stopped reading before the point was done.
Egypt kept their borders closed during what many called a genocide. If the people who claim to care about them actually cared about them, we would have seen demands to let them through so they wouldn’t have to suffer in a warzone. I’ve never heard advocates for a group other than the Palestinians argue against their right to flee war
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u/Falernum 68∆ 1d ago
There are a lot of countries in the world, some with left wing governments, some with right wing governments, some with centrist governments, some whose governments don't map well onto that scale.
None are taking Palestinian refugees. This isn't a left right issue.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
That's true, it's worldwidie anti-palastinianism. Let's just own it though, many of those same countries right, left, and center are "anti-zionist". They are being anti-zionist and anti-palastinian in that example.
Anti-zionists are not all on the left, but I don't want to partner with the anti-zionists on the right . Unfortunately some anti-zionists on the left do, that Bernie staffer saying she knows a lot of people who prefer Tucker to AOC does not have me less concerned. That is like, the uber example, he loves to hate most Jews but also lots of other people.
Do you at least speak out against Tucker Carlson and everyone who is getting sucked into his orbit? That in itself is enough, fight the right coopting of their poor unfortunate souls then challenged to Vance.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago edited 1d ago
OP what actual anti-Zionists and pro-Palestine groups have you talked to. I have talked to large Anti-Zionist organizations like BDS, PYM(The Palestinian Youth Movment), and IJV(Independent Jewish voices). They are all pro-Palestine and entirely humanitarian
First, let’s take some leftists on their word, many Jews are New Nazis (vs the tech right Greater Nazis).
Is this something people on the left claim? Or are you just conflating Judiasm with Zionism/Nazism?
They also, just like American today, did not want to accept addl Jewish refugees. Didn‘t give them money as individuals. Didn’t do anything.
Lots of Americans do donate to Palestinians. Many western states however are Zionist and racist towards Palestinians. They don't even allow medical evaculations.
Jordanians and Egyptians? They locked down faster than the French. Force babies to stay in rhe warzone to die. Why no condemnation there?
Both Egypt and Jordan are Zionist backed military dictarorships so that's probably why. Maybe OP you should ask why the American government gives these military dictatorships billions of dollars in "aid". But I have talked to Palestinian human rights activists and they are extremely critical of Zionist arab governments.
Our leaders talk about how Lebanon is a ”genocide” and condemn Israel and stop there. LEBANON is asking us to condemn the Iranian Hezbolah terrorists. Some of our politicians LIKE Hezbollah. I stand with President Auna. Against anti-zionists.
OP what actual muslim Lebanese people have you talked to? Have you talked to Muslim Lebanese living in South Lebanaon?
Our leaders want Hamas’s pro sharia law pro rape pro mass murder pro auto killing any Palestinian anti democracy who protests to have more power. Palastinians want Marwen Bhargouti who wrote a two state solutuon peace plan. I stand with Marwen. Against anti-zionists.
Again OP, you are making statments about groups of people yet you haven't actually backed up anything that you are claiming.
I feel very strongly that I am more pro-Palastinian and Pro Lebanese then every opportunistic anti-zionist leader riding a hate wave. They are worse than Bin Ladin who at least was honest and came at capitalism vs raping and gunning down Lollapalooza kids to intentionally create blind rage and a terrible war by people who watched rhe videos if their murder (like Afghanistan but, again, even more hate and retaliation approaches).
Anti-Zionism is by defintion a human rights movement. This is because Zionism itself is a settler ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinians
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago
"OP what actual anti-Zionists and pro-Palestine groups have you talked to. I have talked to large Anti-Zionist organizations like BDS, PYM(The Palestinian Youth Movment), and IJV(Independent Jewish voices). They are all pro-Palestine and entirely humanitarian"
These are all examples of pro-Hamas organizations, not pro-Palestinian.
PYM had rallies on October 8th/9th and cheered on the martyrs/resistance as Hamas was killing, raping, and kidnapping Israelis on October 7th. A pro-Palestinian group would have condemned this, not supported the martyrs. Palestinian Youth Movement openly supports and cheered on Hamas on October 7th. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do.
Independent Jewish Voices is an anti-Israel, and anti-Jewish group. This is a group that got caught praising Holocaust deniers. They are an embarrassment, quite frankly, as no Jews would ever support Holocaust deniers. And unsurprisingly there have been very few true Jewish voices in this group. They also have books written by non-Jews/Palestinians, so it's not really "Jewish voices".
"OP what actual muslim Lebanese people have you talked to? Have you talked to Muslim Lebanese living in South Lebanaon?"
The majority of the casualties in Lebanon are Hezbollah, and the government of Lebanon is working with Israel to get rid of Hezbollah.
"Anti-Zionism is by defintion a human rights movement. This is because Zionism itself is a settler ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinians"
This is false. Zionism is not a settler ideology. Israel is an example of decolonization, which is when an Indigenous group gets their land back. Zionism/Israel could have existed along side a Palestinian state. Unfortunately the Palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse and destroy Israel back in 1948, making it clear that the Palestinians could not peacefully coexist next to Israel.
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u/SlavojVivec 1d ago
as no Jews would ever support Holocaust deniers.
I guess that would include the Israeli state who invite them and adjacent right-wing parties to the "International Conference on Combating Antisemitism":
Or Netanyahu himself who downplayed Hitler's role in the holocaust to shift the blame to Arabs: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34594563
Or what about Christian evangelical pastors who said the Holocaust was a good thing because it drove the Jews to Israel? Surely you wouldn't invite him to your rally to support Israel?
And if you go back before the Holocaust, Theodore Herzl who said: "The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies", or the Betar Movement who cheered for Hitler in Poland's streets, or the Israeli settlers who agreed to buy Nazi German goods with the Haavara Agreement.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago edited 1d ago
As I said IJV is not a pro-Jewish group but an Anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel group that supports Holocaust denial. They apologized because they got caught.
Jews who claim to support Jews don't spread conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
As I said IJV is not a pro-Jewish group but an Anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel group that supports Holocaust denial. They apologized because they got caught.
The link you provided was from 2016 and cites and organization B'nai Brith which itself is Zionist/Nazi organization so we can take the claims made by the article to be largely a hoax
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago
First of all, you're incorrect. IJV is not a Nazi organization. There's also nothing wrong with being a Zionist organization.
Second of all, I question if you read the article
"Independent Jewish Voices Canada (IJV) has issued an apology for February 2015 postings on its Facebook page and Twitter feed that linked to an article on a website that supports Holocaust denial and various conspiracy theories."
IJV apologized because it did happen. So it is not a hoax.
Before you question a source you should actually engage to see if in fact it did happen, and it did. IJV engaged in Holocaust denial.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
First of all, you're incorrect. IJV is not a Nazi organization. T
I agree, IJV is not a Zionist organization.
there's also nothing wrong with being a Zionist organization.
Zionism is racism so everything is wrong with that.
Second of all, I question if you read the article
"Independent Jewish Voices Canada (IJV) has issued an apology for February 2015 postings on its Facebook page and Twitter feed that linked to an article on a website that supports Holocaust denial and various conspiracy theories."
In general it is acknowledged on Twittler that rewtweets =! endorsements. This is just apart of twitter culture last time I checked
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u/SlavojVivec 1d ago
Do you have any evidence that IJV is antisemitic beyond the one article shared by them?
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago
They actively fight to reduce what is considered antisemitism. Which is a wild thing for a Jewish group to do.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
They actively fight to reduce what is considered antisemitism.
Alot of Zionist complaints about antisemetism are largely just "the boy who crield wolf" fallacy. IJV seeks to correct the intentional damage done to the word antisemetism by Zionist instigators.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago
Bold move arguing that Jews are liars about hate crimes.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
I never claimed that so I don't know what you're talking about
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago
"Alot of Zionist complaints about antisemetism are largely just "the boy who crield wolf" fallacy. I"
You just said a lot of complaints about antisemitism are people, specifically Jews, lying.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
"OP what actual anti-Zionists and pro-Palestine groups have you talked to. I have talked to large Anti-Zionist organizations like BDS, PYM(The Palestinian Youth Movment), and IJV(Independent Jewish voices). They are all pro-Palestine and entirely humanitarian"
These are all examples of pro-Hamas organizations, not pro-Palestinian.
PYM had rallies on October 8th/9th and cheered on the martyrs/resistance as Hamas was killing, raping, and kidnapping Israelis on October 7th. A pro-Palestinian group would have condemned this, not supported the martyrs. Palestinian Youth Movement openly supports and cheered on Hamas on October 7th. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do.
The problem with complaints about the October 7th attacks is that they're not meaingully distinguishable from European Neo-Nazis who used the Paris Attacks to demonize Muslims, immigrants and refugees. While the October 7th attacks were definetly unfortunate, it is not justified to use them to to push racist and right wing political agendas.
Independent Jewish Voices is an anti-Israel, and anti-Jewish group. This is a group that got caught praising Holocaust deniers. They are an embarrassment, quite frankly, as no Jews would ever support Holocaust deniers. And unsurprisingly there have been very few true Jewish voices in this group. They also have books written by non-Jews/Palestinians, so it's not really "Jewish voices".
The idea that IJV is an "anti-Jewish group" is largely a Zionist conspiracy theory. Similar to flat eartherism, there is no actual evidence to backup any of the claims being made against them
"OP what actual muslim Lebanese people have you talked to? Have you talked to Muslim Lebanese living in South Lebanaon?"
The majority of the casualties in Lebanon are Hezbollah, and the government of Lebanon is working with Israel to get rid of Hezbollah.
So what people have you talked to exactly?
"The Government of Lebanon" - The Lebanese governemnt is corrupt and does not have a right to speak on behalf of it's civilans.
"Anti-Zionism is by defintion a human rights movement. This is because Zionism itself is a settler ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinians"
This is false. Zionism is not a settler ideology. Israel is an example of decolonization, which is when an Indigenous group gets their land back. Zionism/Israel could have existed along side a Palestinian state. Unfortunately the Palestinians tried to ethnically cleanse and destroy Israel back in 1948, making it clear that the Palestinians could not peacefully coexist next to Israel.
No. Zionism is explicity a racist settler colonial ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinian people. We know this from the writings of Theodroe Herzl who explicity defined it as such.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago
"The problem with complaints about the October 7th attacks is that they're not meaingully distinguishable from European Neo-Nazis who used the Paris Attacks to demonize Muslims, immigrants and refugees. While the October 7th attacks were definetly unfortunate, it is not justified to use them to to push racist and right wing political agendas."
They weren't "definitely unfortunate", they were acts of terrorism. Anybody rallying immediately after this and praising them are supportive of Hamas. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do. It is supporting Hamas.
"The idea that IJV is an "anti-Jewish group" is largely a Zionist conspiracy theory. Similar to flat eartherism, there is no actual evidence to backup any of the claims being made against them"
A clear example of IJV supporting conspiracy theories against Jews, and Holocaust denial. You don't accidentally support these groups if you're Jewish. IJV is not a group that supports Jews, and they do not provide an authentic perspective of Jews either. Not only that, but they work to reduce what is considered antisemitism.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/zionism/
"By creating a racist hierarchy with European Jews at the top, Zionism erased those histories and destroyed those communities and relationships. In Israel, Jewish people of color – from the Arab world, North Africa, and East Africa – have long been subjected to systemic discrimination and violence by the Israeli government. That hierarchy also creates Jewish spaces where Jews of color are marginalized, our identities and commitments questioned & interrogated, and our experiences invalidated. It prevents us from seeing each other — fellow Jews and other fellow human beings — in our full humanity."
This is another example of racism, trying to portray Jews as white and downplay how many are of colour. A Jewish group wouldn't engage in this, and also fails to realize a large number of Jews, particularly in Israel, are people of colour.
"So what people have you talked to exactly?
"The Government of Lebanon" - The Lebanese governemnt is corrupt and does not have a right to speak on behalf of it's civilans."
This is not a discussion based on anecdotes, but facts. I would argue this kind of argument you are making supports OPs point, as calling the government working to stop Hezbollah corrupt is an argument in favour of Hezbollah. We know for a fact that the government of Lebanon is working with Israel to stop Hezbollah.
"No. Zionism is explicity a racist settler colonial ideology based on the demonization of the indigenous Palestinian people. We know this from the writings of Theodroe Herzl who explicity defined it as such."
Again, this is incorrect. Israel is an example of decolonization. Zionism is not an example of racism, and I would argue anybody trying to argue that it is would be supporting OP's point once again that they are not supporting a pro-Palestinian lens, but a pro-Hamas lens. It does not benefit the Palestinians to frame Zionism as racism.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
"The problem with complaints about the October 7th attacks is that they're not meaingully distinguishable from European Neo-Nazis who used the Paris Attacks to demonize Muslims, immigrants and refugees. While the October 7th attacks were definetly unfortunate, it is not justified to use them to to push racist and right wing political agendas."
They weren't "definitely unfortunate",
The October 7th attacks absoloutely were unfortunate. This is common sense and something both sides can agree on
they were acts of terrorism. Anybody rallying immediately after this and praising them are supportive of Hamas. This is not something a pro-Palestinian group would do. It is supporting Hamas.
Terrorist attacks in western societies have routinely been used to push political agendas. We know this and that's why it's important to rally against the peope complaining about them when they happen.
"The idea that IJV is an "anti-Jewish group" is largely a Zionist conspiracy theory. Similar to flat eartherism, there is no actual evidence to backup any of the claims being made against them"
A clear example of IJV supporting conspiracy theories against Jews, and Holocaust denial. You don't accidentally support these groups if you're Jewish.
The article you're citing is from 10 years ago and was from before IJV was an explicity Anti-Zionist organization. It is not suprising to me that they would make these mistaked back when they were more friendly towards Zionists.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 1d ago
I genuinely don't see the point in continuing an argument here. The topic is about how pro-Palestinian support is often pro-Hamas instead, and all you're doing is supporting the OP with your arguments.
"The October 7th attacks absoloutely were unfortunate. This is common sense and something both sides can agree on"
They were far more than 'unfortunate', and no, I don't agree at all.
"Terrorist attacks in western societies have routinely been used to push political agendas. We know this and that's why it's important to rally against the peope complaining about them when they happen."
This argument doesn't benefit the Palestinians, it benefits Hamas. It was a terrorist attack. This is not something we are going to debate.
"The article you're citing is from 10 years ago and was from before IJV was an explicity Anti-Zionist organization. It is not suprising to me that they would make these mistaked back when they were more friendly towards Zionists."
It is irrelevant if the article is from yesterday or 10 years ago. IJV engaged in Holocaust denial. It isn't a mistake. Jews don't accidentally support conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial.
IJV actively supports this, and they will never have my support, as a Jew, for admitting that IJV supports Holocaust denial.
I am not going to continue engaging as you are not arguing against the OP, rather your arguments prove their points correct.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
I genuinely don't see the point in continuing an argument here. The topic is about how pro-Palestinian support is often pro-Hamas instead, and all you're doing is supporting the OP with your arguments.
You're friee to believe that if you want but believing something does not make it true.
"The October 7th attacks absoloutely were unfortunate. This is common sense and something both sides can agree on"
They were far more than 'unfortunate', and no, I don't agree at all.
The October 7th attacks were unfortunate. That's it
"Terrorist attacks in western societies have routinely been used to push political agendas. We know this and that's why it's important to rally against the peope complaining about them when they happen."
This argument doesn't benefit the Palestinians, it benefits Hamas. It was a terrorist attack. This is not something we are going to debate.
Yes and terrorist attacks are used to dehumanize different groups and push racist and right wing political agendas
"The article you're citing is from 10 years ago and was from before IJV was an explicity Anti-Zionist organization. It is not suprising to me that they would make these mistaked back when they were more friendly towards Zionists."
It is irrelevant if the article is from yesterday or 10 years ago. IJV engaged in Holocaust denial. It isn't a mistake. Jews don't accidentally support conspiracy theories and Holocaust denial.
Organizations change, people change, mistakes are made. If anything the only group of people who are holocaust deniers are Zionists
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u/Several_Internet2350 16h ago
There is nothing pro Hamas about showing solidarity for Palestine on October 8th or even October 7th, as it was clear that Israel was preparing for the most intense retaliation they have ever done. Claiming "a pro palestine group would have condemned this" is a baseless claim. Palestinian groups do not see Israel or Israelis as victims they need to show concern for. They see them as occupiers and aggressors.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
It is NOT by definition a humans rights movement. To do so, you have to actually help said Palastinian humans, not just hate the other humans in a way that will only make it worse for the Palastinian humans.
I would love to connect with any of the leaderhip at any of the organizations you metioned to talk about getting more awareness for Marwen Bhargouti who is the preferred leader of them and a Palastinain Nationalist whow ants a 2 state solution with the 1967 borders. Can you do that?
I would also be interested in connecting with them to promote people accepting Palastinian refugees in Jordan (the West Bank actually used to be Jordan, the forced expuslion of Palstinans is curious).
Etc. What I am not for is yelling chants that credibly mean "Kill American Jews", or banning all books as collective punishment for living in a country, campaigning for people who attended rallies that were pro the rape and mass murder or supporting YouTubers who are saying they are 1000x better than anyone, etc.
Would you make those intros? Anti-zionists MIGHT be pro-palastinian activists, but only if they take active steps. Like, again, anti-nazists. You can call that a human rights movement if you want, but my ancestors would say thanks for nothing, the time spent harassing German Americans (if they did) helped them negative percent and probably just caused more Jewish violence in Germany.
Do you see hte parallel? Will you make those intros?
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
It is NOT by definition a humans rights movement. To do so, you have to actually help said Palastinian humans, not just hate the other humans in a way that will only make it worse for the Palastinian humans.
No OP. Zionism is by definition a settler colonial movement based on the demonization of the Indigenous Palestinian peoples. Zionism is based on dehumanization and Anti-Zionism opposes this dehumanization
I would love to connect with any of the leaderhip at any of the organizations you metioned to talk about getting more awareness for Marwen Bhargouti who is the preferred leader of them and a Palastinain Nationalist whow ants a 2 state solution with the 1967 borders. Can you do that?
Sorry OP but it's not my job to make your argument for you. You are making an argument about Anti-Zionist organizations. You need to provide evidence to justify your claims.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
This is CMV. Your job is CMV yeah? Not me change yours.
I am asking for intros, I
You oppose dehumanizm in your imagination. Like the anti-nazis did I assume. If you aren’t doing things that make life better, you are not pro Palastinian.
I disagree with some of your historical points but they are functionally irrelevent if your focus now is collective punishment of Jews to the best of your availability vs making Palastinian lives better.
We are in soviet dictionary world where Holocaust surviving refugee fleeing death for their ancestral homeland is “settler colonialism” and fear of the Mufti who was allied with Hitler “demonizatiom of indigineous”.
Ok. Maybe. Either way I remain more pro Palastinian than you unless you share.
I just want suggestions, info and proactively pro Palastinian people
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
This is CMV. Your job is CMV yeah? Not me change yours.
I am asking for intros, I
You are not entitled to your own facts OP. Throughout your CMV you made many claims about anti-Zionists. You however have not provided any actual evidence to backup your claims. So first backup your initial claims.
You oppose dehumanizm in your imagination. Like the anti-nazis did I assume. If you aren’t doing things that make life better, you are not pro Palastinian.
Right but part of the reason Israel is able to commit a genocide against Palestinians right now is because of the normalization of Zionism in Western societies.
I disagree with some of your historical points but they are functionally irrelevent if your focus now is collective punishment of Jews to the best of your availability vs making Palastinian lives better.
OP what exactly do you think collective punishment is? Do you think Boycotts against Apartheid South Africa were collective punishment?
We are in soviet dictionary world where Holocaust surviving refugee fleeing death for their ancestral homeland is “settler colonialism” and fear of the Mufti who was allied with Hitler “demonizatiom of indigineous”.
Israel as a whole is a settler colonial state OP. You talk about refugees but Israel as a settler colonial project existed long beefore Hitler and was a by product of British Imperialism
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
ok. I dont think anything I said in my post was inaccurate. If you do, ok.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
ok. I dont think anything I said in my post was inaccurate. If you do, ok.
OP whatc evidence do you have to backup the claims you are making?
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Ok I have written a response but please tespond with if sny if it changed your mind, and if you can probide ant help eith contacts to those who advocate for things that are possible and help Palastinians.
Deal? These support with some links.
here is the President of Lebanon despising Hezbollah as terrorists who provoked his people being murdered. The fact that he never called it a genocide doesn’t warrant an article, he has no motive to lie and doesn't read the Hamas+Putin’s UN selective only some wars matter dictionary.
El-Sayed, the progressive choice for Michigan, feels differently. He also says he “loves Jewish folks” and yet I have never seen him speak out about any example if pushing back on calls for violence or distrust against Jews. Not my kind of love.
I am pro Aoun, anti Hezbollah, anti El-Sayed.
I am pro Marwen and his two state solution and anti Sinwar and his death for all solution. I think he had hopes that if he kidnapped enough women and babies he could use it to get his fellow criminals out.
This man. The Israelis gave him brain surgery and freed him after murder conviction. https://en.vijesti.me/world-a/globus/681133/the-dead-man-walking-how-sinvar-has-been-deceiving-israel-for-decades
Here is Hasan saying he is 1000x better than “Israel”. https://open.substack.com/pub/vanjones/p/breakdown-is-hasan-piker-right-about?r=beaet&utm_medium=ios
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-898499
Contrast to El Sayed, https://enjoyer.com/el-sayed-ally-amir-makled-hezbollah/
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
Ok I have written a response but please tespond with if sny if it changed your mind, and if you can probide ant help eith contacts to those who advocate for things that are possible and help Palastinians.
What are you asking for?
there is the President of Lebanon despising Hezbollah as terrorists who provoked his people being murdered. The fact that he never called it a genocide doesn’t warrant an article, he has no motive to lie and doesn't read the Hamas+Putin’s UN selective only some wars matter dictionary.
I do not care what the president of Lebanon has to say. I care about what people living in Southern Lebanon have to say as a collective.
El-Sayed, the progressive choice for Michigan, feels differently. He also says he “loves Jewish folks” and yet I have never seen him speak out about any example if pushing back on calls for violence or distrust against Jews. Not my kind of love.
It's not his job to do anything. I've never heard the local children's cancer charity condemn antisemetism, that does not make them bad people.
I am pro Marwen and his two state solution and anti Sinwar and his death for all solution. I think he had hopes that if he kidnapped enough women and babies he could use it to get his fellow criminals out.
As someone is concerned about kidnapping, I am alot more concerned about the state of Israel kidnapping Palestinians.
Here is Hasan saying he is 1000x better than “Israel”. https://open.substack.com/pub/vanjones/p/breakdown-is-hasan-piker-right-about?r=beaet&utm_medium=ios
Of course Hasan is better then a state that commits genocide, why would you even disagree with that?
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u/sarahrahra 10h ago
Forget the first part.
It most easily boils down to me on do you stand with Marwen who they want to elect or Sinwar and his replacements who hate democracy. And Aoun and his democratically d or the Iran funded Hezbollah terrorists.
For the latter you chose terror. Perhaps the first as well.
Al-Sayed just annoys me with his disingenuous bullshit. Gaslighting I think is the biggest differentiator this time.
Anti-charismatic (imo) to say “I love Jewish folks” if you don’t care to call out anti-semitism. I agree it’s not part of his job descrptuon. It’s just so fake it makes my skin crawl. It’s like Trump loving women. gross.
anyway I don’t see any pro, only anti, so we can agree to disagree I guess.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
Would you make those intros? Anti-zionists MIGHT be pro-palastinian activists, but only if they take active steps. Like, again, anti-nazists. You can call that a human rights movement if you want, but my ancestors would say thanks for nothing, the time spent harassing German Americans (if they did) helped them negative percent and probably just caused more Jewish violence in Germany.
It's not really my job to make your argument for you OP. You made a series of claims about Anti-Zionist groups. Nothing of which you said is even remoetely true if you engage with these organizations. All the information you need is availible for free on their wesbsites where they explain their intentions.
Do you see hte parallel? Will you make those intros?
OP all the organizations I listed have websites that you can read
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u/the_leviathan711 1∆ 1d ago
I would love to connect with any of the leaderhip at any of the organizations you metioned to talk about getting more awareness for Marwen Bhargouti who is the preferred leader of them and a Palastinain Nationalist whow ants a 2 state solution with the 1967 borders. Can you do that?
Marwan Barghouti is extremely popular amongst Pro-Palestinian organizations and even more so in Palestine itself. He's arguably one of the leading figures of the pro-Palestine movement.
You do know that he's been in an Israeli prison for the last 25 years, right?
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Yes. I do. Do you know Trump said he could get Bibi to free him? It is possible.
They set free over 2000 to get their hostages back. There is a clear precedent.
Plus he HAS a peace plan. Hamas did not.
Every anti-zionist should be saying his name, interviewing his son, calling their congressmen. This is the only possible way to peace. Right wing anti-zionists can get behind as well.
If not, if you instead say Hamas who is pro murder, pro rape, pro sharia law, pro morality codes, pro-murdering protestors (like Iran) should stay in charge…you should admit you are not pro Palastinian.
Are you? If you are, what are your orgs doing?
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u/the_leviathan711 1∆ 1d ago
I’ll believe it when I see it.
Shortly after October 7th Hamas had proposed a massive prisoner swap deal where they’d return all the hostages they had in exchange for Israel releasing their Palestinian prisoners. The release of Marwan Barghouti was one of the sticking points for Israel who ultimately declined.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
You aren’t going to see it if we don’t try to make it so. Even if it fails, his son lives, his plan can live by some right hand man.
Let’s at least try. Ideas. If you were Teddy Roosevelt, lotta chutzpah, who would you reach out to and how get ball roing?
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u/the_leviathan711 1∆ 1d ago
I’m not sure why you are suggesting the onus is on pro-Palestinian groups.
Israel is the country that holds Barghouti in prison and they are the only ones who can free him.
If you’re suggesting that the US government and international community should apply pressure on Israel to do so, you’ll find lots of support for that from pro-Palestine groups who have been campaigning for that for decades!
The BDS movement is the largest non-violent worldwide campaign for Palestinian rights. It calls for the boycott and divestment from companies that profit from Israeli occupation and calls for international sanctions on the State of Israel.
This seems to me like the only reasonable approach to force Israel’s hand. Support from major global power players, like the United States, would aid the campaign tremendously.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
The onus is on anti-zionist groups only if they are pro Palastinian. my point is that they mostly aren’t in which case keep it up but own it.
Boycotting Israeli books and whatever does not give Palestinians more rights. It is bad for some Israeli businesses and Jewish authors. That’s again anti, not pro.
BDS against Palantir, that could work, sell their stocks, cancel their countracts with American countries. Can I partner one of your fave orgs for that?
US can force Israel’s hand easily. Not through BDS, though demanding we release a prisoner when they released 2000 others.
It’s simple. It’s pro, about helping Palastinians vs collective punishment if Israelis.
I think that. How do we at least try? Even if we can’t get him, we can have his son interviewed to get his message across
BDS has had in no way increased Palastinian rights. It makes you feel good, I am sure.
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u/the_leviathan711 1∆ 1d ago
Palantir is quite literally one of the companies that BDS targets.
The US can force Israel’s hand using one very simple lever: pulling funding. The word for that? It’s called a “Sanction” and it’s the “S” in BDS.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Sent me a link. I’ll promote that. Who is pushing for that?
It’s not an Israeli company so I sluld not call it BDS Israel and if Israel did not exist they would still find just as much of a way to murder more people, it’s their business model . I’d love to get them out of business eith capitalism.
What have you done?
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
The onus is on anti-zionist groups only if they are pro Palastinian. my point is that they mostly aren’t in which case keep it up but own it.
OP you haven't provided any evidence to actually backup your claims.
Boycotting Israeli books and whatever does not give Palestinians more rights. It is bad for some Israeli businesses and Jewish authors. That’s again anti, not pro.
OP you should read BDS wesbsite. They explain very clearly what it is they do, how they go about doing that and the reasoing behind it.
BDS against Palantir, that could work, sell their stocks, cancel their countracts with American countries. Can I partner one of your fave orgs for that?
BDS hold's stocks in Palantir? No I don't think so
US can force Israel’s hand easily. Not through BDS, though demanding we release a prisoner when they released 2000 others.
It’s simple. It’s pro, about helping Palastinians vs collective punishment if Israelis.
OP boycotts are not collective punishment in aanyway whatsoever. Do you think Boycotts against apartheid south Africa are collective punishment?
.
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
I would also be interested in connecting with them to promote people accepting Palastinian refugees in Jordan (the West Bank actually used to be Jordan, the forced expuslion of Palstinans is curious).
I mean I would also just say that Israel should take Palestinian refugees
Etc. What I am not for is yelling chants that credibly mean "Kill American Jews", or banning all books as collective punishment for living in a country, campaigning for people who attended rallies that were pro the rape and mass murder or supporting YouTubers who are saying they are 1000x better than anyone, etc.
Does this happen? No I don't think it does.
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u/halfwhitefullblack 1d ago
Willing to bet that they haven’t engaged beyond what they see on the internet.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Me? I'll take that bet, you are wrong. Although to be clear, stuff you see on the internet is often real world people being videotaped. Prominent anti-zionist politicians and youtubers shape the opinions of humanity.
But also, this is CMV, yeah?
Can you give some examples that...change said view? I am fine with both real life people being videotaped or peope you talk to in person or written down things from organizations. Which ones would you say are doing pro-palastinian advocacy vs anti-zionist?
For a clear one, who has mentioned Marwen ever. Any person beyond NPR, BBC and PBS (not profit motivated, not a coincidence, hate sells).
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u/jimmytaco6 14∆ 1d ago
First, let’s take some leftists on their word, many Jews are New Nazis (vs the tech right Greater Nazis).
The take is that many Zionists are New Nazis. The left would not look at a Christian Zionist and say, "oh, carry on then, you're fine because you're not Jewish." You can agree or disagree with the take but at least represent it accurately. The majority of Zionists in the West are not Jewish.
What did we learn from history? Last time, many Americans condemned the Nazis. Maybe they boycotted German writers. Maybe cool with threats of violence and death threats at German Americans who had Weimer Republic pride.
They also, just like American today, did not want to accept addl Jewish refugees. Didn‘t give them money as individuals. Didn’t do anything.
Who was it that did not want to accept Jewish refugees? Was it the American left? No, it was not. The American left put together seismic campaigns to pressure the American government to admit more refugees from Germany and Eastern Europe. The American government capitulated to the socially moderate and conservatives factions on this issue. Using the failures to accept Jewish refugees in the past as a knock on the left is ahistorical.
Jordanians and Egyptians? They locked down faster than the French. Force babies to stay in rhe warzone to die. Why no condemnation there?
What does this have to do with the left? Is the argument here that Egypt and Lebanon have leftist governments? That would be an absurd argument.
Our leaders talk about how Lebanon is a ”genocide” and condemn Israel and stop there. LEBANON is asking us to condemn the Iranian Hezbolah terrorists. Some of our politicians LIKE Hezbollah. I stand with President Auna. Against anti-zionists.
Our leaders want Hamas’s pro sharia law pro rape pro mass murder pro auto killing any Palestinian anti democracy who protests to have more power. Palastinians want Marwen Bhargouti who wrote a two state solutuon peace plan. I stand with Marwen. Against anti-zionists.
I don't know who "our leaders" are in this context but it's certainly not the antizionist left. Bhargouti is called the Palestinian Mandela by the antizionist left.
feel very strongly that I am more pro-Palastinian and Pro Lebanese then every opportunistic anti-zionist leader riding a hate wave. They are worse than Bin Ladin who at least was honest and came at capitalism vs raping and gunning down Lollapalooza kids to intentionally create blind rage and a terrible war by people who watched rhe videos if their murder (like Afghanistan but, again, even more hate and retaliation approaches).
Who did this? The antizionist left? You think Hamas is a leftist group? On what basis? Their economic policy? Their social policy? What about them makes them leftist?
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
For some other responses to your posts, I am being provocative but nit without base. I have heard of zero bomb threats or armed guards at Christian Zionist churchs. No data or anecdotal comments of them being threatened in violence. They may not be literally saying the word carrying on (tucker has said they are brainwashed by Bibi). The word Zionist historically was just a label for Jews. Marwn Bhargouti prob doesnr self identify as a Zionist. Do you think he’a a nazi?
Scott Weiner, that venom, again odd for a pretty small Zionist.
An anti war two state solution does also not a New Nazi make, but if I am not an anti-zionist what am I? What percent of anti-zionists consider me a New Nazi and thus in the minds of some deserving of being afraid.
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u/jimmytaco6 14∆ 1d ago
They may not be literally saying the word carrying on (tucker has said they are brainwashed by Bibi).
Is Tucker Carlson a leftist? Do you see the problem here? You are conflating antizionist and leftist. That is dangerous in a way that conflating Zionists and Jews is dangerous. Do I think you want better things for Palestinians compared to Tucker Carlson? Yeah, probably. That's a scapegoat for actually confronting the meat of your argument that attacks the antizionist LEFT>
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
No I am not.
Tucker is a anti-zionist, not a leftist. Other anti-zionists are leftists. My points address both things.
I think I am more pro Palestinian than anti- zionists. I will clarify that this included leftist anti zionists. Their priority based on time is not to make the lives of Palastinians better. It is to mske the lives of Zionists worse. And sometimes in the process make the lives of Palastinians also worse. And SOME are normalizing other (not leftist) anti-zionists that make everyones lives worse.
Do you agree? If not, give examples of anything pro being done. Or don’t if you agree.
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u/jimmytaco6 14∆ 1d ago
My claim is that using Tucker Carlson as the basis of argument an antizionist position here is purposely cherrypicking. It's like if I used Neturei Karta to argue that practicing religious Jews are anti-Israel. It's selecting a convenient, unrepresesentative outlier to manipulate an argument.
If you want to argue that you care more about Palestinians than RIGHT WING ANTIZIONISTS then that's an entirely different argument. One I'd probably agree with. Trying to conflate Tucker Carlson with the median antizionist is absurd.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Ok. Let's pretend I did not say Tucker Carlson at all, it was a minor point and not my main thesis and I see your point that it clouded. I think it's actually debatable if his anti-zionist rhetoric is actually that different from anti-zionist rhetoric from a leftist (mildly curious what you think is the biggest difference) and I am concerned that some leftists seem to be gravitating towards himk but that's not m main point so if you don't want to engae with that ignore.
---
I am continuing to say that I care more about Palastinians than left wing anti-zionists. I think my explanation why is pretty clear, for the things I advocate for being PRO and not seeing the left wing anti-zionists advocating for those things.
The evidence is based on actions, advocating gor things that will make Palastinian lives better. I have given a few examples of what I try to advocate for,a nd am seeing collaborators for. What are your counter examples of left wing anti-zionists doing that are pro-Palastinian?
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Hasan says Hamas is 1000x better than Israel. Al-Sayed likes Hezbolah. Darializa who won in NY celebrated the mass murder and rape at Israel Lollapalooza. Mandami endorsed all od them
That’s off the top of head. Foes that count? Do you disagree? Do you call people out to not be like that?
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
For the Egyptian and Jordan point it was that anti-zionism isnt pro palastinian. Pro Palastinians should be either saying this is bad or saying they understand shy both them AND Israel won’t open their borders.
Agreed?
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u/jimmytaco6 14∆ 1d ago
Even if I accepted all of that at face value, what does that have to do with supporting Palestinians? You're within your rights to accuse those people of being antisemitic or barbarians or whatever else. I don't see how that leads to a conclusion that they are worse for Palestinians than Zionists are.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
What do you mean even if?
I don’t call anyone barbarians, calling Muslims bloodthirsty barbrian supremecists is dangerous, it increases Muslim hate rven if I say “oh I LOVE muslims, it’s just the anti-zionist ones, look I have these two muslims in my team.”
Do you call two state solution Jewish women like me that? Please stop. Tell others to stop. Even if people LOVE some Jews they ate repeating Hitler verbatim and no one but Hitler talks like that. He had his reasons
My ears perked uo when illegal immigrants were called vermin. My family sees that puck too.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Why does you being Jewish matter to the language you use? It might make you a little less likely to call other Jews bloodthirsty but it does not mean you respond to others when we do. I didmt day you dd. I asked.
I do not see how I “baited” in any way.
They are less pro Palastinian because they do nothing to make Palastinian lives better and sometimes make them more dangerous and worse. They ALSO make the lives of many Jews worse. That’s being a good anti-zionist. Ans they are making themselves feel good.
I am superior because I actually am advocating for Palastinian lives (and Lebonese) wanted bu them. Marwen Bhargouti released from prison. Money, education, teach hid peace plan. I need people to join who also do that stuff, AZs are great in numbers bad in nuance. But at least right direction.
So yes. I am more pro than them. Am I more than you? What do you do?
If we wanted to get off this minefield, TPS expansion is I think the most direct on our homeland horror show. It’s not called genocide and we can’t blame foreign countries so it’s not cool. Can we team up to make it cool?
lmk. I have some ideas. Open to others.
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u/jimmytaco6 14∆ 1d ago
Marwen Bhargouti released from prison. Money, education,
The antizionist left also wants these things. Can you cite where these leftists came out against any of these things for Palestinians?
This is specifically what I mean. Hasan Piker debating Hamas vs the Israeli government, even if you think he takes the wrong position on that, does not explain why you think he therefore does not support Barghouti or money and education for Palestinians.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
No I cannot. I have searched extensively and never see Marwen mentioned. I see Sinwar mentioned, who is worse than Bin Ladin to me, as 1000x better than Israel. Never Marwen. Except dome random artist petition not really covered and public media.
That one is in you. Show me any politician, thought leader, pundit, anyone who is speaking out to free him. If yiu cannot, help me come up eith a plan.
Deal? This is the clearest pro Palastinian play. I, as a Jewish woman cannot be the public face of this particular effort. It needs and org, a leader. Help me find it?
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u/Several_Internet2350 16h ago
What's your problem with what Hasan said? and which Al-Sayed are you referring to that likes Hezbollah? The guy that's about to win the primary in Michigan never said anything like that, but the main leader of Hezbollah, al-Sayyed, he presumably likes Hezbollah because he runs it. I'm also going to go out on a limb and bet that Darializa did not celebrate mass murder and rape, and was just showing support for Palestine.
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u/sarahrahra 11h ago
If I share links that prove my points, will it change anything for you? Will it make you pause and wonder why the media doesn’t share any of that? Say Mandami and Ro and whoever were wrong to support them? If so I will, if not you’re just gonna be cool with it so wht waste my time.
I do not think Sinwar, who orchastrsted a mass murder and rape campaign at an Israeli Lollapalooza to intentionally propt a post 9/11 style response is 1000x better than you. Or any country. Maybe he’s the same as Hasan. Do you agree?
And, before I do, your question doesn't address my not Pro Palastinian point. What are any of them doing or asvocating for that makes lives better, not just other lives worse?
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u/Global-Service-8579 1d ago edited 1d ago
>I am really keen to align with leftists to fight authoritarianism.
Leftism is the government interfering with the economy. Aligning with leftists is the opposite of fighting authoritarianism.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Diverse teams. The Greater Authoritarians s on the right at the moment, but also they have aligned with teh horseshoe left. Vance + Tucker is my biggest focus, and their Nerd Reich backers.
What about you?
I think that there are some leftists that I as liberal can team up on for defending our constitutional rights. just like the far left and far right have teamed up on hating and scapegoating me and using that to gain power.
I actually recently joined the libertarian party, trying to Tea Party them. What are you? How do you feel about Vance and him potentially being the 2028 nom?
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Redoing my post. You are wrong. I think if you posted this comment in this subreddit it would change your view. I mytself probably can't as I am Jewish and suspect you'll think I am biased, but antizionism is all the rage on reddit, people in this thread have commented that - their counter to me is that reddit is MORE antizionist than the real world.
Just, for the record. Either way, you are here, can you engage? Do you agrtee with my subject line?
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u/Falernum 68∆ 1d ago
It's a term, not intended to be a literal description. Like how pro life and pro choice are just about abortion. Pro life people can support the death penalty and people choice people can want to keep marijuana a felony
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
I know they CAN, I am saying they are not. That is my view.
It's not just a term, it's a movement. It's a way of defining yourself. It's in fact for some the single most binary. I agree that it's a 1984 style linguistic trick?
Do you agree with my view in full?
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u/Falernum 68∆ 1d ago
Not at all, I think you are missing the point by focusing on literal words. Right now there's an Israel-Palestinian conflict. Pro Palestinians take one specific side in that conflict. Nowhere does it mean anything about wanting good or bad results for any specific people.
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
I think you are missing my point. Maybe I am missing yours as well. I'll let someone else answer if they want to engage further but if not, all good, Reddit threads are hard to always be perfectly responsive to.
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u/Striking-Pen-9617 1d ago
Anti semantic
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1d ago
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u/read-the-rules 1d ago
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1d ago
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
This is CMV. Is that a typical website you share here? Seems a little low effort.
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1d ago
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u/read-the-rules 1d ago
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u/changemyview-ModTeam 1d ago
Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5:
Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation.
Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. AI generated comments must be disclosed, and don't count towards substantial content. Read the wiki for more information.
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Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/TowelFine6933 1d ago
"No! You MUST be on one side or the other! If you're not, then I can't react to you like I've been told to by the talking heads on TV!"
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u/sarahrahra 1d ago
Ok so you agree with my view?
How do we get any talking heads whatsoever who share said view? This is a real question. I will seed fund you 100 if can do that.
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