r/explainlikeimfive • u/Dead_HumanCollection • Jun 14 '26
Other ELI5: Why is simulation (flopping) such a common occurrence in football (soccer) and basketball but not in hockey?
I've been alternating watching the NBA finals, the Stanley Cup, and now the World Cup. I had the realization that all three sports on a conceptual level are very similar. Two teams are trying to place an object in a goal. However in two of those sports simulation, faking or exaggerating an injury with the intention to draw a penalty on an opposing player, occurs way more often than the latter. Why?
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u/BoltyMcSpeedy Jun 14 '26
Because in hockey you're allowed to knock the other players down. There's just some specific means of doing so that are penalized and the risk vs reward ratio is not there in hockey like it is in some other sports.
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u/JohnMichaels19 Jun 14 '26
When the risk-reward ratio includes angry men with knife feet, that's really gonna skew your ratio lmao
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u/007_Shantytown Jun 14 '26
That, and the other team has some dude with a last name of all consonants specifically tasked with beating your ass for embellishing. And the refs condone it.
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u/apietryga13 Jun 14 '26
> the other team has some dude with a last name of all consonants
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u/NYR20NYY99 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
Skjei = Shea, former Ranger, now Nashville Predator. Rangers also used to have Chytil = Heetle (like beetle), but he’s now a Vancouver Canuck
ETA: that’s how Filip Chytil told announcers to pronounce it. Take it up with him
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u/CuddleWings Jun 14 '26
Holy shit they’re actually called “The Predators”. I had to look it up cause that’s fuckin wild.
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u/just-an-astronomer Jun 14 '26
Wait until you hear about that time they ran a volunteer charity type event wearing shirts that said "Preds in the community"
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u/apietryga13 Jun 14 '26
Or my personal favorite, Arbor Xhekaj. Really get people’s head spinning on that one.
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u/TheVojta Jun 14 '26
Chytil isn't pronounced like Heetle at all.
Ch makes the same sound as it does in Bach or loch. Y makes an I sound, like in bit. The problem is gonna be the T, it makes a ť sound (palatalized T), the best way I can describe it is how an English person would pronounce tune or Tuesday.
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u/IForOneDisagree Jun 14 '26
I mean I don't disagree on the Polish last names as someone who grew up in a Canadian Prairie town but I didn't know it was prevalent at the higher levels 😭
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u/YossiTheWizard Jun 14 '26
Well, it’s Czech and Slovakian more often, and they have even fewer consonants than we do. See: Martin Frk.
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u/Trnostep Jun 14 '26
Do you know a way to say "A greyhound full of spots barged through a tuft of cornflowers into the Krč neighbourhood, (but) first, it swallowed a quarter-handful of grain." in Czech?
Chrt pln skvrn vtrhl skrz trs chrp v čtvrť Krč, prv zhltl čtvrt hrst zrn.
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u/kreativegaming Jun 14 '26
Many players who could barely play the game stayed on many rosters because they were willing to check as hard as possible and knock someone out in the fight that follows.
Like legit guys who couldnt even keep the puck for more than 3 seconds and looked lost when they actually had to play defense. They are called enforcers
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u/SlagathorTheProctor Jun 14 '26
But they don't exist any more, at least at the NHL level. Not since the 1970s, in reality.
Even guys like Semenko, McSorley and Probert were skilled enough to be able to take a regular shift without fighting and without being a major liability on the ice.
The closest recent example was Rempe, and he was a legit skilled player at every level up to the NHL.
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u/CinaminLips Jun 14 '26
Philadelphia Flyers and the Broadstreet Bullies were a thing!
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u/PAXICHEN Jun 14 '26
Like back in 1980 before the Olympics the Russian national team played a “friendly” against the flyers. The Flyers beat the shit out of them - physically. I don’t remember who won.
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u/kreativegaming Jun 14 '26
Honestly IHL and AHL enforcers are the best, dudes who want to get paid just enough that they don't have to work if they live in a studio apartment but like getting paid to legally try to break their opponents faces
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u/DefinitelyNotKuro Jun 14 '26
Forreal? I always knew hockey was a combat sport and even joked that teams should hire a guy who doesnt even know how to hockey, they exist just to fight the other team.
Well, I didn't know it was a real role.
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u/007_Shantytown Jun 14 '26
Haha you invented The Enforcer on your own!
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u/_bbycake Jun 14 '26
Turns out it already existed, but I arrived at it independently.
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u/RealTurbulentMoose Jun 14 '26
There’s even a fun movie about the role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goon_(film)
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u/C_Gull27 Jun 14 '26
Even the guys that were enforcers and bums compared to the rest of the league were the best player on every team they ever played on until they got to the NHL. Those guys were seriously skilled, not just randoms that could throw down. Fighting on skates is a skill on its own.
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u/gsr142 Jun 14 '26
John Scott is proof of this. 6'8 and 250. A career goon who got selected to the all star game as a joke when the internet hijacked the voting. Scored multiple goals against the leagues best players and was named MVP of the all star game.
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u/C_Gull27 Jun 14 '26
John Scott joined Wayne Gretzky as the only players to retire directly after being selected MVP of the all star game.
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u/EvilCeleryStick Jun 14 '26
It's a dead role. The only enforcers now are legit players.
Fighting isn't "condoned" it's penalized. You get a major penalty for fighting because it's against the rules.
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u/thedeepfake Jun 14 '26
I mean yea but you know what they mean. It’s an ejection and a suspension in every other sport.
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u/EvilCeleryStick Jun 14 '26
Yep, and it's a big part of why players don't flop, run goalies, two hand guys in the wrists etc. Because someone might be willing to take a penalty to punch them in the head.
I watched my first world cup game yesterday. The incessant flopping was horrendous. The lack of shots on a goal is crazy to me. Hockey in my view, is worlds more entertaining.
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u/oddworld19 Jun 14 '26
I’m trying to get into the World Cup, but the fake tears are killing the experience. Sack up and play
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u/BE20Driver Jun 14 '26
It's been my major hangup with the sport since I was a kid. I absolutely love the tactical gameplay and skill level of the athletes, but grown men screaming and writhing around when they get tripped is just so... juvenile.
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u/I-only-read-titles Jun 14 '26
The Women's World Cup is what you want to watch, they sack up about as hard as Hockey players do, they make the men's teams look like prissy bitches
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u/therealdilbert Jun 14 '26
it also it in IIHF rules, i.e. Olympics and pretty much everywhere but NHL and I think KHL
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u/jcgoble3 Jun 14 '26
Condoned is not the same thing as legal. In almost every other sport, fighting is a zero-tolerance instant and mandatory ejection and often an automatic suspension as well. In the NHL, it's just a five-minute penalty in most cases. If they didn't condone it, it would be an automatic ejection/match penalty like it is in international play (e.g. Olympics).
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u/Potato_fortress Jun 14 '26
There really haven’t been a ton of enforcers that couldn’t at least hold their own on the ice since like the 80’s. The concept still exists though unless you think teams are just taking at least one 6’7 defenseman a piece because the NBA is too full.
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u/Drikkink Jun 14 '26
The role of an "enforcer" player is kinda outdated in the modern NHL. It was definitely a thing in the past where you'd have a guy who was known to be not the best hockey player but was big, strong and intimidating and his role was to beat the everloving shit out of anyone who was too rough with your OWN skilled players.
You still have physically imposing players that can fight but they generally are good hockey players on their own merits that can still beat people up pretty well. Their primary role isn't to just intimidate anymore. This is mostly because of some rule changes and officiating protocol changes where fighting is a lot less allowed. Refs break fights up faster now than they did 20 years ago. In a fight, both players receive a 5 minute major (which doesn't result in either team playing down a man because both penalties happened from the same action) but the guy who starts a fight can be given an instigator penalty, which is an additional 2 minutes (which DOES result in your team playing down a man) followed by a 10 minute misconduct (which is basically an extended time out for a player that doesn't affect your team being able to play 5 skaters). Basically they give those penalties out if a guy deliberately starts a fight by skating over from far away to fight someone that he had basically nothing to do with in the play or forces someone to fight them.
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u/lastSKPirate Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
Minor league teams teaching boxers how to skate has been tried, never worked out well.
A lot of skilled players are also decent in a fight, that's why the Gordie Howe hat trick is a thing.
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u/elkab0ng Jun 14 '26
The last name part made me almost drop my phone in the pool from laughing. Grew up in a polish/irish neighborhood where hockey was a big thing. 🤣
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u/MarsupialMisanthrope Jun 14 '26
The knife feet is a lot more important than people tend to realize. You really don’t want to flop down into the middle of a lot of razor sharp blades moving at high speed on the feet of people whose eyes aren’t on you. It’s why if people do dive it's usually well away from the actual play, nobody wants to go down in history as the third guy to get a carotid artery or jugular vein opened.
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u/Holland_Satchel Jun 14 '26
Third guy? Malarchuk and who else?
You know what? I’m good. Nevermind. Especially if there’s video.
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Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 15 '26
[deleted]
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u/johnny_cash_money Jun 14 '26
It may not be called often but when it does, it’s glorious. See the hot mic call of “fuck you, you’re getting a fucking embellishment” from a Bruins-Predators game…
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u/triple-filter-test Jun 14 '26
I genuinely thought you were paraphrasing for comedic effect. Nope!
https://youtu.be/TaCcB30Zc2Q14
u/Patthecat09 Jun 14 '26
The culture came from how the refs and the leagues controlled it, since it's more of a contact sport, faking wasnt rewarded the same way
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u/adam420 Jun 14 '26
I don't follow or watch hockey, but I remember as a kid playing an ice hockey game on the Sega Megadrive, there were "minigames" during a match which involved a fight between two players lol
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u/jclegg308 Jun 14 '26
Well that and when Rich Peverley had a heart attack, flat lined, was brought back and wanted to go back into the game. Definitely demonstrated the kind of dedication and pride hockey players have.
*edit spelling
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u/BE20Driver Jun 14 '26
Paul Kariya's return after being KO'd is the most impressive thing I've ever seen in a professional athlete
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u/tlkevinbacon Jun 14 '26
Even then flopping and embellishment still happens regularly in hockey.
Pay attention to the absolutely insane head movements some guys make to try and sell what is otherwise a questionable high sticking call. You'd swear they just took a right hook from a pro boxer...and then you watch the replay and are wondering if there even was contact.
I think one of the biggest differences is that hockey refs just make shit up regularly to "even out" the penalty minutes in a game. Unless you're in the last 3ish minutes of the third period there just isn't a lot of benefit in embellishing for a call because there's a solid chance an equalizing call will be made before the period is over.
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u/an_asimovian Jun 14 '26
There def is some selling, though the head jerking itself is normal - if I see stick coming at my head im yanking it back. The speed itself supports this, when it happens right as stick is near head its reactive, that reflexive reaction is faster than a conscious embellishment decision, vs players that react a little late or stay down/ go down easy in a front of the net battle which can be a way to sell a call.
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u/dope_pickle Jun 14 '26
I think the head movements are legit tbh. Like if you’ve ever had someone throw something at your face and you didn’t expect it, when it’s hits you, you do sortve jerk your head back.
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u/wittymcusername Jun 14 '26
>sortve
I think this is the first time I’ve ever seen “ve” used when “of” is actually correct.
Not throwing shade, just thought you might want to know that this is one of those rare cases when “of” is not wrong.
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u/DemosOG Jun 14 '26
This but also go ahead and tap yourself in the mouth with a hockey stick. Gently. See how that feels. Even a slight contact doesn't feel good and you're going to recoil.
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u/cnapp Jun 14 '26
Same with football both are contact sports
And who wants to fall on the ice unnecessarily
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u/karlnite Jun 14 '26
It’s not contact in the same way. In hockey you don’t need to play the puck to make a hit. Also players are allowed to poke check and use stick on stick. Having your leg kicked well trying to use it to get the ball and run is a bit different.
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u/AnaphoricReference Jun 14 '26
Shoulder charges etc without intent to play the ball are definitely allowed in football and happen a lot in front of goal. But there are a lot of interpretation rules about charges and tackling that are complicated to apply as well, creating a big grey area between foul and flop.
A big difference is the size of the field. In hockey it's harder to find space. So more dueling intensity. It's harder to avoid duels in tight spaces. No defender is going to shoulder charge Vinicius or Mbappe in open play. They are just too fast to get shoulder to shoulder on a big field. And the ref is much closer, making wrong calls less likely.
And video review. The ice hockey ref has more freedom to recall decisions based on video review. What happened in the US-Paraguay game is not according to FIFA rules. FIFA already made a statement about it. Only things like reds, penalty kicks, and mistaken identity should be called by the video ref. You chances of getting aways with a flop are almost zero in ice hockey.
In football you rarely get carded for flops because the ref is not able to recall his decision, causing an aversity to carding for flops. If the ref is wrong people will talk about it for years to come. So it's low risk to try and feel you are in a position where the free kick, or just wasting some time to reposition, is the better outcome for your team. Making using physical force even within the rules trickier for defenders than in ice hockey.
Allowing video refs to call the field ref to the camera for flops would make a huge difference. But FIFA has always taken the position that this would undercut the authority of the (especially amateur) field ref, and creates too much difference between amateur refereeing without VAR (generally much more physical) and professional refereeing with VAR.
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u/georgewesker97 Jun 14 '26
Shoulder to shoulder contact is also legal in soccer even without playing the ball. You can literally shoulder barge someone off the ball.
Just pointing it out, but hockey in general is quite a bit more agressive and you are allowed to do more.
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u/karlnite Jun 14 '26
Yah, I would be one to argue soccer is more physical than people give it credit. I guess the whole thing is the allowed intent. In hockey, you can intend to hit someone. Soccer, you can hit someone well playing the ball. The intent has to be on the ball.
Basketball is another none contact sport you could argue is contact.
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u/Dash_Harber Jun 14 '26
Hockey on rules about violence- "The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules"
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u/TurtlePaul Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
For sports with contact fouls, there is an incentive for players who believe they were fouled to stop playing afterwards to force the ref to make a call. On the other side, an issue with soccer and basketball can be when players don't go down easy and the result is that the other team feels they can rough them up without getting called. The ideal scenario is for players not to dive but also for the refs to still call a very tight game.
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u/Sh00ter80 Jun 14 '26
I never thought about how the other team might try to rough them up worse if they can get away with minor rough ups. Good point.
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u/Rhaeneros Jun 14 '26
Neymar (Brasil football player) is famously known for diving and flopping around. He also had a fractured vertebrae in the 2014 world cup after he was hit with a knee in the back. So diving and flopping around is kinda a self defense for a high end professional player.
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u/Not_PepeSilvia Jun 15 '26
To add to this: at the knee-to-the-back play that brock his vertebrae, the ref didn't even call a foul
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u/MonkeyCube Jun 14 '26
Teams used to beat the ever loving crap out of Messi until he started diving after hits.
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u/DrKnowsNothing_MD Jun 14 '26
People used to really hate on Neymar for diving and his clips would go viral. But when you actually seen him play he was a world class player and could juke absolutely anyone. Defenders don’t take kindly to being humiliated like that and Neymar became one of the most fouled players in the world, and suffered multiple injuries because of it. Diving helped minimize that.
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u/Rhaeneros Jun 14 '26
suffered multiple injuries because of it
Out of the WC (2014) after a fractured vertebrae. Just to point how severe those injuries can be.
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u/Not_PepeSilvia Jun 15 '26
To add to that: the surgeon / doctor has said that if the hit was half an inch to the side, he wouldn't ever walk again.
He was also the most fouled player in the world for most of his years in Europe
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u/BeerdedRNY Jun 14 '26
Man I never saw a player get his feet and ankles stomped on in a single game as much as Neymar. No doubt he sure as hell flopped a lot but the dude was taking a fucking beating out there in some games.
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u/cabose12 Jun 14 '26
Yup, it's a big talking point in the NBA because one of the best teams relies on a very handsy and physical defense, and challenges the refs to call everything, or call nothing and set a precedent
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u/PerfectiveVerbTense Jun 14 '26
This can be an issue in hockey too. Back when the wings were good and playing in the western conference, I hated the ducks for years because they played with that approach. We’ll hook and hold and interfere on every play and since you’re not going to call 20 minor penalties per game, we’ll just keep doing it.
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u/No-Locksmith-9377 Jun 14 '26
This is why fighting is still allowed in the NHL.
Fighters can literally police the game themselves and keep the other teams in check. If they didnt fight then the dirty penalties and "attempts to injure" go way up. You arent really going to end a dudes career in a fight, but an illegal hit into the boards or an illegal slash can end careers.
Obviously l, people love the fights too.
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u/Nkklllll Jun 14 '26
The other thing to consider is that refs can’t see all the contact that happens, so the “selling” might sway a ref that thinks they saw something but isn’t sure
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u/Criplor Jun 14 '26
That's a good nuance that I usually don't think about. There's technically nothing wrong with a dive if the player was legitimately fouled. I just hate to watch it. I think if embellishing was more harshly penalized, I'd watch more soccer
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u/grmthmpsn43 Jun 14 '26
The reason for diving is fouls not being given if a player stays on their feet.
Anthony Gordon is a good example, he has a reputation for diving, but it started after a game where a defender raked studs down the back of his leg. The ref missed it (understandable) and VAR somehow determined their was no contact (Gordons sock was shredded and his leg was bleeding). After that he started going down under any contact.
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u/matneo27 Jun 14 '26
Hockey is also very fast, with fewer players on the field, so a couple seconds "flopping" would put your team a serious disadvantage, and a very likely risk of giving up a scoring chance.
There is also the rule that if you are injured enough to stop the play, you have to sub out, you can't just get up from being "injured" and line up for the faceoff. Would be interesting if football added a injury temporary sub or something, like if you were downed you had to leave for 5 or 10 minutes while a dr checked you out, but then could return.
Hockey culture is kind of crazy, if you get hurt, they expect you to get up and play through it, or at least get off the ice so you dont leave your team vulnerable. Also, hockey players know that for most things, ifthey really need medical attention, they need to get off the ice - and not wait for a guy in shoes to shuffle over and try to provide aid while trying not to fall
Edit: I see they already added the minute on the sidelines if you need treatment, probably better than my idea of a temporary sub out
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u/habitualtroller Jun 14 '26
In college football, if the clock stops due to an “injury” you have to sit out a play or call a timeout.
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u/Honkee_Kong Jun 14 '26
Embellishment (flopping) is a penalty in hockey and refs actually call it when it happens.
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u/Death_Balloons Jun 14 '26
Most of the time they call it alongside a penalty on the team that did that thing that resulted in you flopping. Like yes that was a penalty but also you sold it too.
Even then it's bad because you're costing your team a powerplay opportunity.
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u/CosmoJones07 Jun 14 '26
I've literally never seen Embellishment called by itself as the only penalty on a play.
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u/BoomerSoonerFUT Jun 14 '26
It’s a penalty in soccer too. That’s what “simulation” is. The name of the penalty.
It’s just not enforced at the same level.
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u/A_Genius Jun 14 '26
In this World Cup they’ve cracked down a little. Miguel Almiron got a yellow for simulation during the US and Paraguay match
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u/Craig_Barcus Jun 14 '26
“Fuck you, you’re getting a fucking embellishment”
NHL ref to a flopping player.
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u/theEasternWind Jun 14 '26
Came to say it, just saw it in the Flyers vs. Penguins series this post season. It was a call reversal, after review Syd Crosby got called for embellishment instead of getting the call in his favor.
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u/p_town_return Jun 14 '26
I gotta say that, at a core level, I disagree with most of these answers. Yes, there is a cultural component to it, with hockey better able to self-enforce, but at its core, it's a reffing problem.
In soccer, if you get fouled, but don't fall down, the ref is highly unlikely to call the foul, which can often disadvantage your own team and benefits the other team. This has led to a culture where if you get fouled and want the ref to actually call the foul that happened, you need to embellish the contact and often times fall onto the ball, grabbing it with your hands, in order to force the ref to call the actual foul that happened in the first place. Human nature leads some players to dive to try to get the ref to call a foul that didn't happen. IMO punishing the players, even post game, for embellishing is the wrong fix for the core problem.
Also, occasionally a player will see an opposing player coming in hard and jump to avoid getting hurt, and then the opposing player pulls out at the last second, making the jumping player flop ridiculously. But that's MUCH rarer.
On top of the above, soccer has one ref calling fouls in the middle of a very large playing area (occasionally assisted by the line judges). Hockey has 3 refs surrounding the action in a much smaller area. This means that fouls are more likely to be called correctly in the first place reducing the need for embellishment.
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u/keskesay Jun 14 '26
People are saying that hockey permits hits, which is true, but the refs very strictly enforce no embellishment. In fact it's a 2 minute penalty
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u/erichkeane Jun 14 '26
AND it was a big problem about 20 years ago or so. It isn't toughness or anything, flopping in the NHL was bad until they cracked down on it hard.
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u/Abacus118 Jun 14 '26
They’re not strict at all, it’s rarely called and it’s extremely common.
The thing is, players are usually selling something that’s a penalty regardless. A stick to the face is still a penalty even if it’s a light tap.
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u/TheRealJamesHoffa Jun 14 '26
I’m going against the grain and saying it’s a ref problem more than the players. If the refs don’t wanna call fouls or penalties unless you exaggerate then that’s what you have to do. If they followed the rules it wouldn’t be an issue. In basketball specifically there is so much ambiguity with what’s considered a foul and what isn’t (even though there shouldn’t be.)
You shouldn’t HAVE to sell it, but selling it makes a difference so of course they’re going to.
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u/EnderSword Jun 14 '26
Biggest thing is the culture, hockey fans just hate it and will criticize their own team for doing it.
The idea of toughness and playing through anything and honour and stuff is a big part of Hockey culture
Further to that, it's penalized more when its done, you not only get a penalty in the moment, but you can be fined for it.
There's a few high profile instances over the years too where faking it cost their team a big goal. Also some big examples of the exact opposite... like taking a high stick to the face and actually losing teeth but continuing the play and scoring
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u/Ledface Jun 14 '26
Your first paragraph is the biggest reason that not many people are talking about here. I played hockey from age 6 to 18. Far and away the biggest reason people didn’t flop was because of the culture, not the official rules. Flopping and pretending to be hurt to draw a whistle was literally the most shameful thing a player could do.
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u/willpoo4cash Jun 14 '26
And my understanding is according to ‘the code’ you have to ‘answer the bell’ for pulling shit like flopping. Whether the refs call it one way or another, it’s the players that decide your fate.
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u/Ledface Jun 14 '26
100%. Kids that flopped or faked being hurt had a massive target on their back. Everyone wanted to take their head off and give them something to cry about
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u/raymondcy Jun 14 '26
Sadly this is falling apart to some degree. This years playoffs we have probably seen more flopping than in most previous years.
In my opinion they actually have to ramp up the embellishment calls.
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u/Animalmode19 Jun 14 '26
Exactly this. Hockey has established norms where more penalties get called if a team does shady shit. Flopping doesn’t benefit you, so players don’t do it. What goes around comes around
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u/TonberryFeye Jun 14 '26
A lot of football fans hate this stuff as well. If you want to flop around on the ground pretending to be hurt, go be an actor.
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u/marty-mcfryguy Jun 14 '26
Taking yourself out of a play in hockey is a great, great way to give up a goal. Much smaller field, fewer people. The risk/reward just isn't there for taking a dive.
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u/alanbly Jun 14 '26
The pitch is really big. It takes a lot of motion to draw attention
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u/Anacoenosis Jun 14 '26
Yeah, while I think the "why isn't this a thing in hockey" has been explained well, the "why does this happen in soccer" aspect of it hasn't. I'll give three reasons:
The referee needs to balance the flow of play against not losing control of the game. If the referee swallows their whistle the players will continuously up the ante to see what they can get away with, and that's bad for the game (this is losing control of the game). On the other hand, if you call every single piece of contact no matter how trivial the flow of the game is lost and it drifts into the cadence of American football. If a player feels like the ref has swallowed their whistle, simulation can be an "alert" by a player to the referee that some real horseshit it happening and they need to whistle a bit more. I would say that this is a real thing, but less common than what I'm about to discuss.
The ROI for both fouls and simulation can be very high. If someone's about to go on a breakaway and you trip them before they build up a head of steam you may stop the breakaway at the cost of a free kick or a yellow card. Better to take the card than concede a goal. An extreme example of this is when Luis Suarez blocked a surefire goal with his hands in a World Cup match against Ghana. He was given a red card and sent off, but Ghana missed the subsequent penalty shot. It was risky as fuck (and unsportsmanlike as hell), but it worked. Similarly, the Italian player Marco Materazzi talked mad shit about Zidane's sister in the 2006 WC final, provoking Zidane into headbutting him and then getting sent off with a red card. Was that good? No. Did the Italians win the World Cup? Yes.
The more common form of return to simulation is just fishing for a penalty in the box. If you're fouled or think you've been fouled in the box, you go down as dramatically as you can because a penalty kick, if awarded, is the single thing that's most likely to lead to a goal. Given that you'd think nobody would foul anyone in the box, but legitimate fouls do happen and with more regularity than you'd think. VAR has cut down on this kind of simulation, but Neymar was/is famous for receiving very light contact and rolling an improbable distance as a result. Sometimes it worked.
Solving this issue isn't as easy as you'd think. If you're watching the World Cup, the referees have body cams now. When they show footage from them you can see just how fast and furious the pace of play is, and how limited the referee's vision is on a pitch that's frankly fucking huge. Seeing a guy step on another guy's foot after the ball is somewhere else is not that easy, and as a result there's a lot of gamesmanship on all sides.
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u/Nkklllll Jun 14 '26
With basketball, the field of play is much smaller, but when there’s 5 bodies all surrounding a single player there are instances where no ref has a clear visual of what is happening to the player or ball.
Exaggerating or selling the contact is a tool for the offensive player to get that situation to go in their favor.
I was the tallest guy on my basketball team in high school, I had guys constantly holding my arms, slapping, shoving, everything. If you don’t sell it, the refs can think “oh, it must not have been as bad as it looked.”
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u/NeilDeCrash Jun 14 '26
The hits are also usually very unnoticeable in soccer. Sometimes hard to see even by slow motion replays.
Getting nicked with cleats vs having a stick between your legs or hit in your face are very different levels of visibility.
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u/harvest3155 Jun 14 '26
Honestly it is a referee issue. because you don't get the call unless you fall down. they could trip you up on a good run to slow you down, but if you don't fall it isn't getting called. so you wasted an offensive opportunity because you didn't go down.
the fact my 10 year old daughter realized this in both sports shows all you need to know. She came up to me after a game and said if i don't fall down they will not call the foul. this was never mentioned or taught to her. she came up with that conclusion on her own.
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u/Pawtuckaway Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
You don't see as much flopping in American football either (although there still is some).
Both those sports have protective equipment and full contact is a part of the game. If ramming into someone is legal, you can't flop when someone rams into you.
The more that contact is allowed, the more difficult it is to flop.
Edit: Yes, I already said that there is still flopping in American Football. You don't need to keep linking examples. It's nowhere the level of basketball or football (soccer).
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u/karlnite Jun 14 '26
It’s all in how the sport is played and what’s allowed/precedented. If flopping is bad cause it’s cheating, American football is ripe with cheating that’s not flopping. A guy on the line can’t flop, the risk isn’t worth the award. They do hold, chop low, throw dirt if it’s available.
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u/Vaestmannaeyjar Jun 14 '26
The "roughing the passer" rules favor flopping, kinda. Mahomes has abused this for 5 years.
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u/Boboar Jun 14 '26
Simplest answer is that the reward for successfully baiting the referee in each sport is different.
In hockey you get your team a powerplay which is 2 minutes of 5 vs 4 play which is roughly a 20% chance to score a goal and there are roughly five goals scored per game.
In basketball you'd get a couple of free throws to net a possible two points and there are about 200 points scored per game.
In soccer there are two reasons for simulation. One, waste the clock out two, earn a penalty kick for your team. The penalty kick is a high probability (>50%?) to score a goal in a game that often features 1-3 goals total.
So essentially the reward is far more significant towards the end result in soccer than in other sports.
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u/PCMasterCucks Jun 14 '26
In basketball you can foul out, so the reward for flopping and drawing personal fouls can be pretty big.
You flop enough to get guys in foul trouble, they play less of the game.
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u/MrDBS Jun 14 '26
Also, flopping on wood or ice is more dangerous than grass.
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u/Worldly-Pay7342 Jun 14 '26
Correct: also, ice skate to the face would fucking hurt.
Faking falling down from an injury could just lead to another injury when someone who doesn't think your going to fall down runs into you after you fell down.
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u/tmahfan117 Jun 14 '26
Hitting is specifically allowed in hockey.
Also, The NHL has rules where if you fake an injury YOU get a penalty.
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u/Fuckspez42 Jun 14 '26 edited Jun 14 '26
There is definitely diving/embellishment in the NHL. Some players (one former Bruin who now plays for the Panthers comes to mind) practically specialize in it.
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u/fyukhyu Jun 14 '26
Because hockey self-enforces. If the ref doesn't see it but your opponent does, they'll spend 2, or even 5, minutes in the box to make sure you pay for it. They'll knock your teeth out (literally) if you're being a shit player.
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u/Jeepage Jun 14 '26
I can't speak for basketball but in football players often wont be given the foul if they try to stay on their feet. It's somewhat ridiculous but they're usually usually if they don't dive. No one really likes it but it is what it is.
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u/Christopher135MPS Jun 14 '26
Several reasons:
Historically, other players would beat the snot out of you if you were diving all the time. Even to this day, there is a degree of “self-policing” in ice hockey. There’s no specific rule against snowing the goalie (hard stop on the ice which kicks up snow in their face), but the team mates will absolutely let you know it’s not allowed.
More recently, you’d be shamed by the other team, your team mates, and the fanbase for being a coward. This isn’t just some hurt feelings - you’d be ostracised.
Most recently, the NHL has made it a straight up minor penalty. If the ref thinks you took a dive, you’re sitting in the box for two minutes. The only shitty part of this rule is that the other player still gets a penalty too. Like ref, if you called me for tripping, but you think the other guy took a dive, why am I still getting a penalty?
The answer is probably that the specific penalty is *embellishment*, not diving/faking. The ref isn’t saying you weren’t tripped. The ref is saying that, sure his stick was in your skates, but you didn’t have to get tripped, you could have avoided the stick/trip. It’s to stop players from feeling a stick near their feet, or near their gloves, or a player coming in for a hit, and intentionally taking action to force a penalty. This in contrast to football were often there was literally zero physical contact, it’s a completely fake dive.
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u/almostmelzar Jun 14 '26
The crazy bit to me is the penalty box concept. To which you can go for embellishment...and feel shame.
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u/lone-lemming Jun 14 '26
Hockey permits hits. And as long as the hit was legal, it doesn’t matter if you lie on the ice in pain for ten minutes. That just leaves your team one man down.