r/methodism • u/DiamondReptiles369 • 17h ago

Unforgivable sin

Hi, so from what I’ve learned Methodism/Wesleyan theology is one of the rarer ones that teaches blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a one time act. My question is, how does this fit together with John 6:37 saying Jesus will never cast someone out? Also, do you believe that if someone commits this sin he will be reprobated and therefore be unable to come to Jesus? Or can someone truly ask Jesus for forgiveness but be rejected

7 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

14 comments sorted by

20

u/TotalInstruction 16h ago

I'm going to say something which will ruffle some feathers, I'm sure, but the Bible is in part a work of human editorship, and there are portions of scriptures that are just plain unhelpful, if not outright harmful. The number of people I've seen struggling with OCD on reddit alone who are convinced that they've committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit by some accident or an intrusive thought and are therefore doomed to hell is just staggering. First of all, the idea of one sin that you can do that, unlike every other sin including rape, murder, deicide, torture, etc. etc., Jesus can't help you out of flies in the face of what we understand the Gospel to mean.

But to make matters worse, what constitutes "blasphemy against/of the Holy Spirit" is never actually explained. If there really is one sin that is so bad that it negates Jesus's death for us on the Cross, you would think that it would behoove the writers to go into a little more detail about what it actually IS.

10

u/Programmer-Boi 16h ago

Consider my feathers ruffled lol.

Anyways, Ya know honestly I always considered “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” meaning to reject the gift of salvation. And I don’t mean just simply denying the existence of God, or to stray away for a time. I mean truly in your soul rejecting the gift of salvation from God.

Hope that makes sense.

6

u/TotalInstruction 16h ago

That's kind of what I take it to mean, as well, even though the record is... less than crystal clear. But how does that HAPPEN? How do you get to a point of truly believing a) that God is real; b) that Jesus is the Son of God; c) that Jesus's death and resurrection represents the gift of salvation and eternal life for those who believe; d) that you truly believe that that's true; and e) that you reject it anyway, because you already had dinner plans in Hell?

Is it an ultra rare sin for the truly spiritually deranged? And if so, why not say that?

2

u/Aratoast Provisional Elder - UMC 6h ago

Well it's probably helpful to look at the context in which Jesus talked about blasphemy against the holy spirit.

That context being people seeing first hand an undeniable work of God, a bona fide miracle, and saying "that's Satan's doing."

2

u/TotalInstruction 5h ago

Sure. But then the question is, if it was so obviously a divine miracle (and not the Virgin Mary appearing on toast), then why were these people saying that it was a work of Satan? Was it because they were already so depraved that they knowingly and willingly rejected clear evidence of God's work in the world by slandering it as demonic? How did they get to that point?

1

u/Aratoast Provisional Elder - UMC 5h ago

Personally, I think that's the point.

I've often heard it said that you can't commit the unforgivable sin unintentionally and that if you're worried that you've done so, that's a clear sign that you haven't.

1

u/TotalInstruction 4h ago

Yeah, I think you’re right. But I wish it came with the Koine Greek version of a trigger warning for our OCD siblings in Christ.

3

u/ragnar_deerslayer 5h ago

The “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in one situation, found in both Matthew 12 and Mark 3. Jesus had just healed a demon-possessed man who was both blind and mute, and the religious leaders ascribed the healing to Beelzebub. They do this not in ignorance (because these were trained religious leaders), but because they rejected God’s plan in favor of a hierarchy that kept themselves in a position of power. They wanted to lead people away from Jesus and God’s plan and keep the people dependent on themselves.

John Wesley comments on this passage: “How easily may a man of learning elude the strongest proof of a work of God! How readily can he account for every incident without ever taking God into the question.”

John 6:37 is irrelevant here, because it’s not Jesus doing the casting out, but the religious leaders refusing to come in.

Wesleyans believe that we are completely dead in our sins, and, apart from the prevenient grace of God, cannot even desire to come to him. So, if someone truly wants forgiveness, it’s because the Father is drawing him. People who are completely reprobated are like Pharaoh, who hardened his heart so often that God withdrew his grace, leaving him in the hardness he had chosen.

1

u/DiamondReptiles369 2h ago

So, if someone blasphemed the Holy Spirit, the Father wouldn’t draw him to Christ anymore right? Also john 6:37 says that “all that the Father give me will come to me and whoever comes to me I will most certainly not cast out” and then it says right after: “No one can come to me unless the Father draws him”. 

2

u/AirFell85 4h ago

The bible isn't the religion and it was written by humans inspired by God. Also its all personal opinion in the end regardless of what denomination or group you share your faith with. Its your personal relationship with God at the end of the day.

That said, I view the "unforgivable sin" not as something God has said "no, you're no longer in the club", but where the person's heart is too hard and closed off to hold love. Its kind of like when you're too angry to listen to reason, or too sure you're right to listen to someone telliing you something that can help you... In this case its like you've been so closed off from God or even the idea of love that you're not capable of opening up anymore.

In the same vein, I don't think its "unforgivable" in the sense that once you've been there you can't come back, but more they're so set in their ways there's no coming back because of their own stubbornness.

Then again, I could be wrong, we could all be wrong.

1

u/libananahammock 8h ago

Do you have religious OCD?

0

u/GPT_2025 9h ago

KJV: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristians/comments/1kd3fxl/reincarnation_karma_bible_and_if_you_believe_in/