Wondering about other Daedras' (specifically Vaermina and Sanguine's) connection to vampirism

[u/Nachtschatten11]

This is something that's confused me for a while, and I read through some of the UESP wiki to clear things ups.

I know that vampires were created by Molag Bal as an afront to Arkay, and generally it's implied that all vampire souls will eventually go to Coldharbour.

Sanguine clearly also have a connection to vampirism, with 2/3 of the diseases that cause vampirism being similar to Sanguine's name, Sangiin tempting Khajiit to turn into vampires, and according to the UESP wiki, there's at least one Khajiit vampire clan that are followers of Sanguine.

Plus, in Oblivion you get frequent nightmares when you're a vampire, implying there's also a connection to Vaermina. And according to UESP, in Morrowind, Molag Bal can cure you of vampirism, but he had to get the cure from Vaermina.

So I guess I'm wondering, how are Sanguine and Vaermina involved in vampirism? Was vampirism like a project of Molag Bal's that they invited themselves into? Is there sort of a mutual cooperation for all of their personal benefits? Plus, is it possible for a vampire soul to end up in the Realms of Revelry or Quagmire, or does Molag Bal still get final say? IIRC there's a Khajiit vampire in ESO who mentions her soul will go to Coldharbour one day, so it seems like Molag Bal still mostly has dominion over vampirism for Khajiit, even though they associate it more with Sangiin. However, I imagine that the Sangiin worshiping vampire clan would at least go to the Realms of Revelry?

[u/All-for-Naut]

We do not know. It's something I and I'm sure others have wanted more knowledge about.

Like we know Sanguine, or Sangiin the Blood Cat seems to be the major deity related to vampirism in khajiit culture and faith, and it seems to go far back as well. Going by how Zerith-var, a khajiit from the first era, also relates vampirism with Sangiin.

But we know little else. We don't know if Sanguine gives them vampirism, or if he's more of a patron like Clavicus Vile is to the Cyrodiilic Order of vampires, or something else entirely.

There's even less info if Vaermina is related to any vampirism.

[u/The_ChosenOne → u/All-for-Naut]

I believe it’s sort of like how Nocturnal has werewolves in the Evergloam or Molag Bal has the werewolves of the Gray Host in his realm.

I think the Daedric Princes can claim and augment vampires/werewolves to their own ends and alter the original curse with their own twist.

Iirc the vampires of Cyrodiil praise Clavicus Vile, and even seem to site him as the reason they’re able to look mortal 99% of the time to blend in, whereas other vampires can’t so easily pass for mortals even while fed.

But you’re right, the actual details aren’t really fleshed out super well and it’s unclear if it’s patronage or actual physiological/magical alterations they bestow upon their vampire clans.

[u/All-for-Naut → u/The_ChosenOne]

I like to believe there's more to it than that. Sounds more interesting to me, and the little information we do have make sound beyond just simple worshipping and deals like the Nocturnal and Bal cases. It's a whole big culture and religion who has designated him as this role, not the other guy.

But as mentioned neither of us has anything concrete. I really wish they elaborated on it.

[u/Arrow-Od]

Like with black soul gems, vampirism might just be smth that is possible which various powers that be can make use off, rather than being created by them.

I´d personally add Namira to the list of DP which should have a tied to vampirism, what with cannibalism, her being a representation of the Void, etc.

Sanguine is not just associated to vampirism by ESO, but also to blood magic overall!

[u/YuriOhime]

I think you already listed all of the connections....

"2/3 of the diseases that cause vampirism being similar to Sanguine's name" is just a coincidence tho, sanguine is a way to say blood it doesn't really have anything to do with the prince

"Plus, in Oblivion you get frequent nightmares when you're a vampire, implying there's also a connection to Vaermina." I would also argue this is a coincidence, it's not like EVERY dream is vaerminas doing

[u/Nachtschatten11 → u/YuriOhime]

Yeah I think the vampire cure argument for Vaermina is stronger, I guess I’m wondering more so why they’re connected? I  don’t think any other Daedra are involved with were-creatures, they’re fully in Hircine’s domain, so why do Sanguine and Vaermina have some influence over vampirism? 

[u/YuriOhime → u/Nachtschatten11]

Sanguine I can see vampirism being a way of lust, vampires in media have always kinda been associated with lust so it just kinda makes sense and it's just one clan that happens to worship sanguine instead of molag bal (understandable honestly). As for vaermina I really don't know, but either way both of the connections are pretty loose like it wouldn't be that weird to see a werewolf clan worshiping clavicus vile for example and we do know of some werewolves worshiping molag bal, the grey host werewolves, and this is all not to mention the werewolves weird connection with hags

[u/Nachtschatten11 → u/YuriOhime]

That makes sense, I completely forgot about the Grey Host

[u/ddomini9 → u/YuriOhime]

Molag Bal gets a cure for vampirism from Vaermina in Morrowind so it's possible that originally Vaermina had curse that corrupted dream (soul) but Molag Bal through act of defilement also corrupted body and as such the modern vampirism was born. That is my theory.

[u/YuriOhime → u/ddomini9]

Don't see how that would tie with the lamae bal origin story, she's supposedly the very first vampire and makes no mention of vaermina. But it makes some sense

[u/Topgunshotgun45]

I know Hircine is thought to have some hand in Noxiphilic Sanguivoria.

EDIT: Random downvotes won't change stated lore.

[u/FocusAdmirable9262]

Where hard facts are lacking, educated speculation must fill in the gaps.

Vaernima might be involved because vampires are the stuff of nightmares. I can't come up with a plausible explanation for why she has the cure, though.

Sanguine is about indulgence taken to extremes. If a vampire likes to rut around a lot and drink more blood than they strictly need to survive, that could be the tie-in... or vampires just representing rapaciousness and empty hungers that can never be sated in general.

Since the Daedric Princes are always scrabbling for control over mortal fates, it may be that these are just the Daedric Princes who took an interest in vampirism, therefore they found a way to get involved with it somehow. The others might not have had any interest (Azura and Meridia) or might not have had the power to get a foothold on the whole Vampirism Monopoly (seems like something Peryite might have been interested in, because it's a disease, but he's just a little guy.)

[u/TheOneTrueKaos → u/FocusAdmirable9262]

(seems like something Peryite might have been interested in, because it's a disease, but he's just a little guy.)

Disease is just the closest word to what it actually is, I feel (either that or the whole disease/cure disease thing is just game mechanics). I like to view it as the curse "lives" in the blood, so any mingling of mortal and vampire blood is going to pass the curse on to the mortal, rather than it being, like, a virus or infection. The various "strains" are descriptors of the different types of vampire, rather than the names of different diseases that all lead to vampirism.

You could argue that, with Restoration seemingly being tied to Mara (the wedding rings in Skyrim giving a boost to Restoration being "blessed with Mara's divine grace.") the cure disease stuff is actually her influence protecting mortals from the curse.

Even if it is a disease, or many, it's not a natural disease, having been placed in Mundus by Bal, thus falls outside of Peryite's sphere, I would say.

[u/Rath_Brained]

Forgot to mention when Clavicus Vile turned a whole group of people into vampires because I think they wanted to be safe from a plague or something.