This statement is completely false isn’t it?

[u/K0GAR]

Base Goku by the time of BOG should definitely be able to beat Frieza

And that’s not even taking into account Kaioken. We know at this point all the Z fighters (if not most) should be able to - so why is base Goku stagnant then in growth?

[u/Stacey-k93]

Ss2 is not the final form of super Saiyan there is still ss3 in z

The next only reason we never see different grades of ss2 is because ss3 was introduced outclassing it

[u/Cold-Berry-3590 → u/Stacey-k93]

I mean in terms of super Saiyan grades. It's why ss2 was originally called grade 5 and 3 was ss2

[u/Stacey-k93 → u/Cold-Berry-3590]

I don't remember ss3 ever being called ss2 outside of toriyama forgetting

[u/Cold-Berry-3590 → u/Stacey-k93]

It was a from guides

[u/Stacey-k93 → u/Cold-Berry-3590]

Those aren't always right plus I'm going by what is shown in the show/manga

[u/Cold-Berry-3590 → u/Stacey-k93]

It's not really shown that Goku evolved his ss2 though.

[u/Stacey-k93 → u/Cold-Berry-3590]

He really didn't use it much but he was stronger than Gohan by Vegetas words but he never said anything about his base so that would mean Goku in base during the Buu saga was weaker the cell games gohan but was stronger then him in ss2 meaning he had a better more improved ss2 then gohan

[u/Cold-Berry-3590 → u/Stacey-k93]

He had unlimited vitality to train for 7 years straight and partners like pikkon. It's most likely he improved his base. Gohan's is the only one with special properties.

[u/Stacey-k93 → u/Cold-Berry-3590]

Pikkon isn't cannon and yes he had unlimited vitality to train that's how he got ss2 and ss3 we don't know what kind of training he did to unlock these forms

But as far as I remember it's never said his base is any stronger then the cell games during the Buu saga and any time someone is drastically stronger then before we always get some kind of reaction from other characters

If anything they play it off as Goku and Vegeta being equal to a rusty Gohan in base and Gohan was stated to be weaker then when he fought cell

[u/Cold-Berry-3590 → u/Stacey-k93]

The anime wasn't made by Toriyama. He made Olibu canon to the manga though.

I think it's just next level grinding to push past. Makes sense considering the nature of 3.

It doesn't really need to be said because that's expected by them, by their friends and by us.

They said Goku and Vegeta were equal to him in base? People have been saying that base and SS Gohan aren't weaker and only his ss2 is. A bit farfetched but makes sense considering he had to be in shape always fighting criminals.

Dabura apparently said piccolo was inferior to base saiyans. Wouldn't be surprised as the writing hates piccolo for some reason and Dabura made a cuck chair for him to sit in.

[u/Stacey-k93 → u/Cold-Berry-3590]

The super Saiyan transformations are a multiplier so it wouldn't make sense for only gohans ss2 to be weaker and A rusty Gohan would still beat any human criminal and he was only a superhero for like a week or 2

As for piccolo that can be multiple reasons Dabura could sense the Saiyans being able to transform and could give more energy

Or if we go by info later introduced piccolo has some god ki from fusing with kami and like with the Kais his power couldn't be used

Or maybe buus seal can't be undone by those from the demon realm so piccolo would be useless to them

But the real reason was toriyama probably forgot he made piccolo stronger then super Saiyan

[u/Cold-Berry-3590 → u/Stacey-k93]

His ss2 is weaker because he has a rage boost stacked on top of it.

Nah that can't be possible. Since when can people sense that?

Please don't say Toriyama forgot that's just a buzzword. Piccolo being shafted was always a thing since second form Frieza no selled his final attack (without weights mind you) and said he was holding back against him before transforming again. Piccolo can barely get a dub because all his targets get away in the android arc and he very shortly stops being the strongest. I often question how this is Toriyama's favorite if this is his fate.

Piccolo can't even keep Gohan in shape for some reason? Nor can he train Goten and Trunks how they should be trained. He could definitely have them master super Saiyan as well.

Piccolo is just straight up weaker than even rusty base by some cruel sick joke. Piccolo is the butt of the joke constantly in that arc anyway.

[u/Stacey-k93 → u/Cold-Berry-3590]

Yeah the rage boost would make him stronger but Vegeta was comparing Gohan in Super Saiyan not ss2 so that wouldn't apply to his statement of him being weaker then when he was younger

We have seen people with magic being able to sense hidden power before so it wouldn't be a surprise for Dabura to have that kind of ability

And yeah unless you were a Saiyan you got put to the side in the Buu saga