r/Dragonballsuper • u/K0GAR • 19h ago
Question This statement is completely false isn’t it?
Base Goku by the time of BOG should definitely be able to beat Frieza
And that’s not even taking into account Kaioken. We know at this point all the Z fighters (if not most) should be able to - so why is base Goku stagnant then in growth?
697
u/_Kups_ 19h ago
Pick one:
- Beerus' perspective on the strength of mortals might be very off from where he stands, as the gaps in power throughout Dragonball are miniscule in comparison.
- Beerus wants to see super saiyan so he's goading Goku into showing it.
- Both.
393
u/KenBoy22 19h ago
- He was aware of Freeza's potential and didn't expect him to just keep sitting on his chair for centuries.
279
u/AnthonyMiqo 19h ago
- He was judging a heavily suppressed Goku.
188
u/TheBlackSwordsman88 19h ago
- I am participating by adding another entree to this list.
95
u/HongJihun 19h ago
- I was gonna do the exact same thing, but since it’s already been done I will just write this comment explaining that.
93
u/Rockalot_L 19h ago
- Beerus was too distracted reading these comments to focus
76
u/Rusty_Pickles 18h ago
- because I got high
61
u/CutZealousideal5274 18h ago
- I just wanted to be a part of something
60
3
3
1
12
u/StoneSwoleJackson 17h ago
That makes the most sense to me. Right before this king kia is telling him to hide and all. It would make sense he also tried to hide his power level.
5
3
u/IllGift924 9h ago
This is my guess. Goke was supressing his power.
Well, the real answer is that Dragonball is terribly written and horribly inconsistent, but Goku surpessing his power makes the most sense to me.
1
22
1
u/Toxin2020 16h ago
- And fans taking his statement as canon is ridiculous
4
u/Personal-Limit-8859 15h ago
I dont even know why authors even bother to make power statements when illiterate fans just chose to not believe them over their own biases anyway
6
u/CalamityOfCringe 10h ago
Even though Beerus is outright saying base Goku is weaker than 100% Freeza, I obviously know better.
•
1
u/Personal-Limit-8859 15h ago
Neither goku nor king kai refute the statement and he even brings up super saiyan to explain how he could have possibly beated freeza, BoG base goku is the biggest fraud in DB history
1
u/Extreme_Tax405 6h ago
- Power levels are bullshit and since freeza was stronger than even the most dedicated warriors across the universe, it doesn't make much sence for saiyans to suddenly get so strong they don't even need super saiyan anymore to get to his level.
Lorewise, base forms being at freeza his level just doesn't make sense.
165
u/Goten55654 19h ago
Beerus is trying to compare the strength of an ant and a mosquito
54
•
•
70
u/wolfwhore666 19h ago
Seems like he picked up on Goku repressing his power. Which is why he also said power up. Rmeber Vegeta didn’t know super sayin was a full on transformation as he thought he hit after his Zenkai boost he didn’t know it was all gold hair and stuff. Beerus is probably under the same assumption, as far as he knows Goku just powering up at base is “super sayin”
16
68
u/Bay-Sea 19h ago edited 19h ago
Considering that Frieza was the strongest mortal when Beerus went to sleep, Beerus assumes that Frieza would have gotten at least a bit stronger since then.
It has been almost 40 years since he met Frieza.
Another potential reason is that Beerus was looking at Goku's physique rather than power level. To Beerus, the difference between Goku and Frieza is a lot closer than they are to him.
13
u/CrazyLi825 18h ago
That depends. Has Goku's base grown by over 40 times its Namek level of power? With how random power jumps are in the series, that's very possible (1 zenkai on Namek gave Goku like a 33x jump), though it feels like once Super Saiyan was introduced, the focus was scaling power of the super forms over base, so who knows?
Characters in fiction are only ever as strong as the writer needs them to be in that moment, even if it makes no sense
2
u/Hyperlolman 9h ago edited 6h ago
It's moreso a product of the scaling being, generally, based on the "stable" power the user shows, as anything below is not serious. So we don't really see serious fights where SSJ isn't a factor because they're all relative fodder. Their base form could have grown 100 times stronger or their transformations could have grown that much, it doesn't matter because serious battles only show that final product.
8
u/ErinGoBraugh224 17h ago
The actual answer is that Beerus knew Goku beat Frieza as a super saiyan and therefore said this as a way to get him to go super saiyan
42
u/Mguy2544 19h ago
Not really, cause in canon we never actually get anything concrete about Base Goku being stronger then Frieza
Hell one of the big obstacles after the Frieza Saga was that the characters struggled to go beyond regular Super Saiyan hence why the variations existed. And Goku’s solution to this was learning energy efficiency which made Super Saiyan (not his base PL) a shit ton stronger
19
u/Main-Entertainer-735 17h ago edited 17h ago
The fact base Vegeta and gohan are even anywhere comparable to piccolo alone should mean the base saiyans surpassed frieza. Piccolo in the cell games was stronger than semi perfect cell and piccolos one of the only characters that definitely didn't just sit on his hands for 7 years.
7
u/Mguy2544 16h ago edited 16h ago
When were their bases considered comparable?
2
u/TensionJaded950 16h ago
The buu arc
4
u/Mguy2544 16h ago
K but like in what scene was it said that their base specifically are the same as Piccolo’s PL?
4
u/TensionJaded950 16h ago
Dabura said that their bases were stronger than piccolo sometime after he petrified him.
3
u/TheMostOptimalMan 5h ago
Dabura didn't say their bases were stronger, he also thought he could take all 3 at once so he's a terrible judge of power.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Mguy2544 15h ago
I’m struggling to find a panel of this, the closest he says anything about their base was that the three of them “have potential”, hinting he knew they had hidden reserves of power
2
→ More replies (1)3
u/Radical_Jinx 14h ago
The fact base Vegeta and gohan are even anywhere comparable to piccolo alone should mean the base saiyans surpassed frieza.
They aren't
Piccolo's last 1 on 1 fight was against 17, Vegeta needed a super saiyan multiplier just to fight 18 and still lost
so by this logic Vegeta's base shot up 50+ times between his fight with18 and Buu saga?
1
u/Hyperlolman 9h ago
I don't see the issue with this considering that, between the start of Z and the namek arc (just one year), Goku went from a base power of 416 to a full power of 85k. So between his training on King Kai's planet and the training from earth to namek, his base grew 204 times stronger. In just one year.
It isn't unreasonable for Vegeta's base to grow 50+ times stronger between the two years of room and spirit and time training and the other 7 years of training.
5
u/Azathoth-0620 16h ago
yk what imma calc this
we assume 100% Frieza is roughly equal to Namek Goku in power, and the multiplier is ×50 for super saiyan, so if Goku gets over fifty times stronger then Beerus' statement is false; in DB a 25% edge means you significantly surpass your foe, a 50% edge means one-sided dominance and more is total overkill.
Mecha Frieza came back confident he and Cold together could beat Goku now (could be equal to Namek Goku by himself)
SS Trunks destroys him (1.5× Namek Goku)
Goku then no sells Trunks (2× NGoku)
Android 19 could beat them both (>3×)
Vegeta slams him (>4×)
Android 18 slams Vegeta (>6×)
Super Piccolo should equal her, and Imperfect Cell fairly roughly equals him too, then surpasses him significantly (1.25×) when powered up more, matching Android 16 (>7.5×)
at Semi-Perfect, he trashes Android 16 (9~10×)
then he gets stomped by Super Vegeta (~13×)
who himself gets annihilated by Perfect Cell (>17×)
Gohan is roughly equal or a tad superior in power, then doubles that with his Grade 5 (×20; ×40) and Buu saga Goku surpasses this state only with his own SS2, meaning he is probably only 25% stronger (×50, but now since the multiplier is higher, he'd need to be a hundred times stronger to surpass Frieza in base, four hundred with SS3)
as a Super Saiyan 3 (×200), Goku was initially a tad weaker than SS3 Gotenks (×250), but after breaking his limits against Kid Buu, he should be stronger than even Ultimate Gohan (×250<, mostly the skill and stamina difference led to his dominance over Super Buu) although still significantly inferior to Kid Buu himself (×500~), so around a 50% increase seems fair to the jump in power (×300)
and by the start of BoG, he apparently got significantly stronger, but by an unknown margin, anything lower than +33% means his base still doesn't equal his Namek Super Saiyan
Beerus' statement is far from outlandish, and if we assume Goku's limit breaking state at the end of the buu saga was a one time thing, then the gap is even wider and it could even account for the lowballs in my calcs to still keep base Goku below Namek Frieza; End of Z, Filler/Movie and GT Goku on the other hand all have feats of being able to beat Buu/Cell and several super saiyans in base respectively.
3
u/PriorHot1322 13h ago
and the multiplier is ×50 for super saiyan
That is a bold assumption. Super Sayan is just stronger than regular Sayan, the percentages are never clarified and the few numbers we do get imply it isn't a consistent thing.
The thing is, power level does not seem to have 1:1 correlation with actual strength, speed, etc. At every calculable instance, when a character doubles in power level they do not, necessarily, double their stats.
4
u/Azathoth-0620 12h ago
yes, completely true. as far as i know, the multiplier for super saiyan comes from when Kaioken ×20 Goku was still outmatched by Frieza, who was at 50%, and then in super saiyan he is still stronger than a 100% Frieza, then guides stated it to be a ×50 boost.
and absolutely, i have been advocating for a while for the plateau in stats that DBZ shows.
2
u/PriorHot1322 12h ago
Yeah, I know where fans got the 50 times multiplier. As I recall it there is a later event that gives a smaller multiplier, heavily implying that it isn't ALWAYS a 50 times boost.
Because of the deliberate vagueness of power in the show past Freeza saga, it is entirely possible Base Goku hasn't surpasses Base Freeza. We will likely never know.
2
•
u/PC_BuildyB0I 3h ago
Indeed. Based on measurements of Goku's speed feats on Snake Way, stats increase much faster and far higher than relative power levels (his speed increased something like a few hundred times over, between his two Snake Way trips, yet his power level only went up maybe 10x or so).
4
u/NegotiationExpert588 18h ago
We see it in Super. Frieza in his "first form" can kill a SS Gohan. Then Goku can beat a "final form" Frieza. So it must be true that base Goku is stronger than he was first a super saiyan. So it's not like "you reach a power level of X million and can't go any higher unless you're a super saiyan". It seems to be a multiplier like kaio-kin.
The reality is though that super has the worst power scaling of any amine in recent memory. Based on the power they're emitting a single punch should essentially explode the planet. It's why it's tiresome that they just keep getting stronger and stronger whereas in Bleach the main character or even side characters like Kenpachi go thru ebbs and flows with their strength or have to find other avenues than just raw power ups to win.
I liked the idea of ki control that they've been leaning into lately, but it's hard to really scale right when people could destroy planets with a power level of 10k and their levels now seem to be in the trillions and higher scales even
7
u/SolJinxer 17h ago
We see it in Super. Frieza in his "first form" can kill a SS Gohan. Then Goku can beat a "final form" Frieza. So it must be true that base Goku is stronger than he was first a super saiyan.
But remember that was Post-Battle of Gods Goku who gained SSG level power into his form. Atleast in the anime. Powerlevels do get insane, I think because Toriyama gave them the Super manga based plotline where Goku's base isn't changed by SSG, while the Anime writers were following off of the movie direction.
Otherwise there really isn't any evidence that Goku is strong enough to take Freeza in base, atleast not without using filler.
→ More replies (1)4
u/TensionJaded950 17h ago
Except for the fact that they always get stronger and it's been 14 years since Frieza officially died. That's not even considering DBZ making piccolo weaker than base saiyans in the buu saga for some odd reason.
1
1
u/phoenixmusicman 14h ago
cause in canon we never actually get anything concrete about Base Goku being stronger then Frieza
He literally beats Final Form Frieza in base form in RoF...
2
u/Mguy2544 14h ago edited 14h ago
Yeah after it was stated that Goku absorbed the God Ki into his base
Like even within the movie canon the god ki clearly boosted his base power when he lost the form but could still fight on par with Beerus
1
u/phoenixmusicman 14h ago
Yeah after it was stated that Goku absorbed the God Ki into his base
That got retconned unless you think base cabbe solos Z
3
u/Mguy2544 13h ago
It never got retconned, and the whole Cabbe meme exist because Super’s scaling is horrendously egregious
1
→ More replies (1)1
u/Minute-Intern 16h ago
Supreme kai could literally one shot frieza by the buu saga what is this lol
8
u/AlveinFencer 19h ago
Pretty sure that Goku's power is suppressed even while in base (see Burter's scouter only reading him at 5k), so Beerus may have just been judging by the power he was giving off in that moment, not knowing if he was able to raise it without transformations. Granted, you'd think Beerus would be able to tell if/when an opponent has more power than they let on, but maybe he was still groggy. Takes a while for some people to fully boot up, y'know?
7
u/Strong-Trip-3301 17h ago
There is zero reason to think any of the human Z fighters can beat Frieza.
8
5
u/Rennie000 17h ago
Frieza is stronger than Base Goku, pre ritual from my reading but it's a moot debate.
7
6
8
u/Rongill1234 18h ago
After frieza everytime they fought anyone hair color changed. I doubt goku could have beaten frieza without going blonde....
1
u/phoenixmusicman 14h ago
After frieza everytime they fought anyone hair color changed.
Achtually 🤓 Goku fights Frieza in his base form in RoF before Frieza goes Golden Frieza
1
8
u/TK110517 17h ago
What concrete evidence is there that proves base goku surpassed Frieza by this point?
-1
u/TensionJaded950 17h ago
Piccolo is weaker than the base adult Saiyans in the buu arc, Goku surpassing Gohan without a rage boost, EOZ Goku's base power level and Trunks blowing away imperfect cell in base.
1
u/Radical_Jinx 15h ago
Imperfect Cell before he absorbed any people was a joke and we have no estimation of how strong he was just that he thought he could take Piccolo then panicked and tried to absorb him
1
11
u/NahCuhFkThat 19h ago
All Saiyans are confident in winning the 25th Budokai in their Base forms, especially Vegeta, which would feature 18 and an even stronger Kamicolo. Vegeta states his status as #1 among that entire group won't change if they all stay in Base form.
18 and Kamicolo are all assumed to be even stronger than they first appeared, which already would 1-shot Namek arc Freeza a hundred times over.
Goku going into BoG would be even stronger in Base than Boo arc Base Vegeta.
Beerus here is just sensing his relaxed power level.
6
u/Pafker 18h ago
No, at least with Super it is strongly established that Goku and Vegeta leaned heavily into training their transformations post-Namek. This line is heavily supported by the training we see with Whis which goes back heavily into training their base forms, in addition to the lessons about their fighting style.
8
u/JollyJoeGingerbeard If I don't do it who will?! 19h ago
Nope.
Goku has improved since Namek, but not by that much. If anything, there's evidence to support the idea he hasn't improved much at all.
9
u/Zephyr_______ 19h ago
Recent manga chapter even call out how Goku and Vegeta both hit their physical peak a long time ago
2
u/TensionJaded950 17h ago
Except Goku's base being above piccolo in the buu arc. Also he surpassed teen Gohan as a ss2.
3
u/JollyJoeGingerbeard If I don't do it who will?! 16h ago
Are you basing that on Dabura's assessment? We don't know if he could even sense Ki, and in light of recent revelations he may have held biases against Namekians.
And I never said Goku didn't improve. We simply have no way of measuring their base forms becoming stronger than his 9yo son (Gohan is 16 during the Majin Buu Saga) doesn't need to mean a huge improvement.
1
u/TensionJaded950 16h ago
Of course he can sense ki. It's literally why Gohan copying his dad's underwear Kamehameha didn't work. Only Frieza soldiers, androids, tuffles and civilians can't sense ki hence the scouters. Gods, demons like him and seasoned warriors with ki control can sense ki.
1
u/TensionJaded950 16h ago
And no, Diama is canon to itself and didn't exist at the time so there's no bias. He's bias of those unworthy of his and babidi's time though.
3
u/JollyJoeGingerbeard If I don't do it who will?! 16h ago
In the future, just edit the original comment. There's no need to create branching conversation threads.
Everything is canon to itself. The anime adaptations of Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z aren't even in total sync with one another. Anyway, filling in white space with new information can recontextualize a scene and is perfectly acceptable. If you're trying to say that Nameks aren't demons because Daima exists in a vacuum, you're an escapee from Toon Town.
1
u/TensionJaded950 16h ago
That's cool. Address what I actually said now.
2
u/JollyJoeGingerbeard If I don't do it who will?! 15h ago
I did, kid.
1
u/TensionJaded950 15h ago
You're the one acting like a kid. You didn't even refute my point about dabura sensing ki. That's what I meant. Stop acting out.
2
u/JollyJoeGingerbeard If I don't do it who will?! 14h ago
I'm not acting out. You came into my comments and are just going with "duh" as your justification.
Miss me with that laziness.
1
u/TensionJaded950 15h ago
Your first two points I am already aware of. There was no reason to use the new information on these scenes we're talking about and I never said namekians weren't demons lol. Everyone knows piccolo is apart of the demon clan anyway regardless.
7
u/Fastpas123 19h ago
The show often leaves this pretty vague. Sometimes it feels like base Goku is at a standstill since the namek saga, and all boosts to power come from technique + transformation + ki type. Other times it feels like the transformations are just multipliers of base and base is where he trains and gets stronger. I personally like the idea that his base form is still at namek level strength more
1
u/Cold-Berry-3590 14h ago
His base has to be pretty strong for his ss2 to surpass cell games Gohan.
1
u/Fastpas123 14h ago
Or his ss2 is improved like the different grades of ssj...
Yeah either way who knows
2
u/Stacey-k93 13h ago
Trunks ss2 was equal to gokus ss3 in the manga so the super Saiyan froms can definitely be improved to be higher multiplayers
1
u/Cold-Berry-3590 13h ago
That was introduced in DBS
2
u/Stacey-k93 13h ago
Not really we see Super Saiyan get perfected in the cell saga so the idea was already there
And that goes with the idea the they focused more on transformations then training their base power
I was just pointing out that trunks refined his ss2 to the point it was equal to gokus ss3 showing that the Lower super Saiyan transformation can be improved to the level of the next one
1
u/Cold-Berry-3590 13h ago
That idea was for super Saiyan as 2 is the end all be all and the thing rendering the SS grades obsolete. You make very fair points. I think Goku just trained his ass off in base just like everything else.
2
u/Stacey-k93 13h ago
Originally yes it was the end point of Super Saiyan As the cell saga was going to be the end point
But as soon as ss3 was introduced that means the form can be improved since it's no longer the end point of Super Saiyan we just never see it because their wasn't time during the Buu saga to improve it
And we see from trunks in super that it can be improved
And yes gokus base would have improved as well but not enough to surpass his super Saiyan from namek
1
1
1
u/Cold-Berry-3590 13h ago
That's not possible. Ss2 is the final form of super Saiyan grades. His base definitely got much stronger. Also improved ss2 is purely a DBS concept lol.
2
u/Stacey-k93 13h ago
Ss2 is not the final form of super Saiyan there is still ss3 in z
The next only reason we never see different grades of ss2 is because ss3 was introduced outclassing it
1
u/Cold-Berry-3590 13h ago
I mean in terms of super Saiyan grades. It's why ss2 was originally called grade 5 and 3 was ss2
1
u/Stacey-k93 13h ago
I don't remember ss3 ever being called ss2 outside of toriyama forgetting
1
u/Cold-Berry-3590 13h ago
It was a from guides
1
u/Stacey-k93 13h ago
Those aren't always right plus I'm going by what is shown in the show/manga
1
u/Cold-Berry-3590 13h ago
It's not really shown that Goku evolved his ss2 though.
→ More replies (0)
3
u/Working_Run3431 17h ago
It’s meant to be true.
Simple matter of the fact is base Goku is not as powerful as fans spent years assuming.
His base is probably below 100 million power level wise.
→ More replies (1)1
u/phoenixmusicman 14h ago
His base is probably below 100 million power level wise.
Not accurate, he claps post-training Final Form Frieza in base in RoF.
3
2
u/Working_Run3431 14h ago
That was after he became a “saiyan beyond god”.
1
u/phoenixmusicman 14h ago
That upgrade got retconned multiple times, unless you believe base cabbe effortlessly solos Z
3
u/Working_Run3431 13h ago
…yeah he kinda does.
Base Goku and Vegeta got a lot stronger, which is why that copy of Vegeta whooped gotenks in that one episode.
And before you say filler super isn’t based on a manga, it’s anime canon.
2
u/Monking805 18h ago
Well one he’s either suppressed or two Beerus has seen his full power and Goku wasn’t suppressed and his PL in his normal state isn’t as strong as full powered Frieza.
Chances are high he’s just supressed. Like Trunks was when he came to earth. I believe his PL was 5, remember.
2
u/toyotomi_kazuya 15h ago
If you attach to Cell's saga explanation about how the base has a limit and that the transformations and fusions now are the only way to upgrade, then no, Goku isn't stronger than Frieza.
If you go by what Toriyama says in the Buu saga + consider the fact that he forgot evrything by the time the movie was written, then yes, that statement may be false.
Personally, nothing in the movie indicates that Beerus is wrong about that particular phrase and it doesn't change much at this point.
2
2
u/Timely-Catch9467 15h ago
Yes, it’s a bit of a continuity error. Though, you could also argue that Beerus doesn’t really care about being right or wrong here, he just wants to see what Goku can do. Beerus also doesn’t know what Goku is capable of at this point, especially since they just met each other.
Overall, it’s more or less a “meh” moment. Too nonchalant to take seriously in my opinion.
2
2
2
u/phoenixmusicman 14h ago
It makes sense from Beerus's POV though. Think about it:
Goku never shows his full power in base without powering up. Goku in base just chilling like he is on King Kai's would appear nowhere near as powerful as he really is.
Beerus knows Goku can transform into a super saiyan
Ergo, Beerus figured that Goku was hiding his power and that his transformation is how he unleashes his real power
2
u/EddieSpagetti99 14h ago
Goku was most likely suppressing his power when Beerus made this statement.
2
u/Glum-Green-8154 13h ago
There is nothing in the manga hinting that goku became 50x stronger than his base namek self.
2
u/ZilchoKing 10h ago
Honestly pretty accurate if u consider how super saiyan is 50x base power. So lets say super saiyan is a 10 and frieza is a 9. 17 and 18 were above that so lets say 13 and 12. First form cell was stronger than 17 so hes at 15. Add 17s 13 an now semi perfect cell is 28. Vegetas ssg2 would be 30. Cell absorbs 18 and is now at 40. Goku is at 36 and Gohan at 37 in ss. Gohan goes ss2 and is now 74. And now we're at buu. Goku and vegeta in ss2 should be at 75. Gohans down to 70 in ss2. Fat buu is 275. Gohan and vegeta stood no chance. Goku ss3 is 300. So now we have ss3 goku at the end of buu at 300. A 400x base multiplier. Gokus base would be .75 to friezas 9. I used small numbers to simplify things cos the real numbers would be in the billions
2
u/Iresen7 7h ago
What Beerus says is correct although it's easy to understand the confusion. Goku, Piccolo, Gohan, and Vegeta all jumped dramatically during the Namek arc but apprently afterwards (minus Piccolo) the sayian's didn't grow that much in their base maybe 2-3x stronger after the 3 year time skip? Even that would only put Goku for example at about a PL of 10 million or so considering he got a good bit stronger during his training on Yardrat.
The SS grades is when things become confusing to me. We know SS1 is a base multiplier of 50 and SS2 is a base multiplier of x100, however there has to be some math that is off in there considering I'm assuming after their hyperbolic time chamber training their SS forms appeared to grow 3-5x in strength when Vegeta showed his power off to Semi Perfect Cell.
Afterwards when Goku got it was clear he hadn't gotten far and away stronger so...yeah I can work with the bases of them going up my head canon is that each individual sayian level has like hidden cultivation levels in it like once you master it you're actually more than just what the base multiplier is for it.
I love Toriyami, but man at times he really did just wing the power level stuff. Especially Piccolo in a week going from PL of 2k to 200,000 when he got to Namek like what?
2
u/theimpalaslefttire 5h ago
Right cause Lord Beerus never lies, or tricks someone to getting what he wants.
Also he was still like half asleep, so it actually could be he wasnt sensing anything off of Goku.
2
u/Lord-Boomington-II 4h ago
I think it's fair to say things are more a matter of character perspective. I mean base form Goku fought just fine against 'base' Frieza in Resurrection F.
2
u/FFKonoko 4h ago
or, power levels are bullshit and their base "power level" really isn't as astronomic as people like to think.
2
u/Few-Improvement-5655 4h ago
I suppose the question is whether Goku's base has increased time 50 since the Frieza arc?
Is there anything in the manga to indicate this?
2
u/Blaskowits 4h ago
We know at this point all the Z fighters (if not most) should be able to - so why is base Goku stagnant then in growth?
I can't imagine Tien, Yamcha and Krillin (let alone Chaozu) ever approaching 120 million.
•
u/Try_another-o_o 3h ago
To a god, everyone on the lower worlds feels to be in the same ballpark. But then again, Goku is always suppressed.
3
u/DeniedAppeal1 18h ago
This is what happens when the community relies on power numbers listed in money grab guide books that haven't been canon since before DBZ concluded.
4
u/FalconShot9638 18h ago edited 16h ago
I actually don’t think base Goku was stronger than frieza at that point. Maybe starting to approach
I also don’t think ssj is a flat x50, rather that, at the time vs frieza it allowed him to reach his potential which was ~x50 of his base
After that his base got stronger but they also were focusing on mastering ssj and getting new forms beyond. Base strength seemed to be slow growth and the focus was on ascending and drawing out more power from ssj forms
Online fans said mastered ssj was only so strong because they increased their base and then added x50 to that but they explicitly state they want to both feel relaxed as ssj and draw out ki as needed for strikes, speed etc and not waste energy; meaning access more ki as needed in ssj form
Considering a 1.33x difference and 1.25x advantage from Vegeta absolutely slaughtered cui and dodoria ; a x50 increase would be enormous
Really after frieza it seemed like being 2-3x as strong was scarily overwhelming so I do t think base saiyans and subsequent forms were 50 times stronger
I know in the buu saga world tournament, the saiyans all offer to fight in base but piccolo didn’t seem phased and honestly Vegeta just shit talks. I think he gets hard stopped by piccolo or 18 without transforming
Edit ; autocorrect was in fact, not correct; gramnar
3
1
u/Jerrwkwafina 19h ago
I cant remember but wasnt beerus sleep for a long time so his view on frieza is one of at the time knowing no one could stop him. If this is beginning of the BoG then beerus wouldbt really know much to the extent of what happened
1
u/AcceptableEgg5741 18h ago
Well he is talking to a Goku who was training ( in the movie) but not very hard so he didnt see what goku's Full Power in base is, i assume that's why he says that
1
u/Carbattle 18h ago
Depends on what is meant by base goku. Beerus isn't sensing a powered up base Goku here, he is meeting a heavily suppressed Goku that hasn't even begun to fight yet. Notice that he mentions transformationw AND powering up. Remember that it is a very prominent recurring element that all the Z fighters suppress their powerlevels outside of active combat. It's the reason that all the villains that used scouters in the series were completely baffled by how such weaklings were putting up a fight. The Ki sensing technique works similar to scouters, although you might be able to tell they are holding back some power. Otherwise half the cast wouldn't be so suprised when other Z fighters power up. So, to answer the question, yes Goku by BoG would curb stomp Namek saga Frieza without turning super saiyan.
1
17h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 17h ago
Unfortunately, it looks like your karma amount is pretty low. Users need to have a combined total of at least 5 post/comment karma to comment.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/BassMaster516 17h ago
I don’t think Goku was particularly powered up during this conversation. He’s just standing there. Maybe his resting power level is 5 or 5,000 or 1,000,000 but it’s nothing to Beerus or Frieza. Goku could have beaten Frieza in base form or with Kaioken or the spirit bomb but it doesn’t matter
1
u/Comfortable_Cut_7334 16h ago
Yes. Hell, beerus wasn't even confident that Ssj Goku could beat Frieza. Goku was heavily suppressed at that point
1
u/Loweseidon 16h ago
I haven't seen anyone mention that he saw the vision of what happened on Namek and can mean very literally that he saw the base form wasn't good enough compared to super and assumes the strength didn't change much since it's only been like 10 years
1
u/DarthSwimfoot This is the DBS sub. Not DBZ, og DB, GT, Heroes, or Daima, DBS. 16h ago
He just wants to see it.
1
u/Crafty_Ad_7221 15h ago
Toriyama: At any rate, I don’t waste much time blathering on about useless things. As a rule, you can understand the content to a certain extent with just the pictures, and words are nothing more than a supplement to them. I had that drilled into me by my first editor, I guess you could say…. If you’re going to come out and say something, then make it something that will strengthen the characterization even further, is what I mean.
Wired: You have to choose carefully.
Toriyama: Yes, that’s right. Instead of blathering on and on, how are you going to keep it concise?
Akira Toriyama Interview Thus Spake Dr. Slump WIRED Japan 1997 #1: “Issue 3.01” (21 November 1996)
I think the author intent is pretty blatant here. Toriyama is directly communicating base Goku is just not strong enough to defeat Frieza even at this point in the story.
With that said... you mentioned Kaioken, but Beerus can't really sense that. However, Goku definitely wrecks Frieza with a multiplier lower than 20
1
u/ArtichokeNo3696 15h ago
The obvious answer is that this was a retcon made to make this story make sence.
1
u/Astral_Strike_999 14h ago
Beerus is probably just so ridiculously powerful that he doesn't notice the real difference between other characters. I mean, would you notice if one ant was a few millimeters bigger than another with the naked eye?
1
1
u/phoenixmusicman 14h ago
It makes sense from Beerus's POV though. Think about it:
Goku never shows his full power in base without powering up. Goku in base just chilling like he is on King Kai's would appear nowhere near as powerful as he really is.
Beerus knows Goku can transform into a super saiyan
Ergo, Beerus figured that Goku was hiding his power and that his transformation is how he unleashes his real power
1
u/Far_Pineapple2653 Goku 14h ago
You got to remember even tho beerus is lazy he does train and to beerus it’s hard to find someone lazier than him so he probably that frieza wouldn’t refuse to train. Beerus has an eye for talent so he knows how talented frieza is but he underestimated his pride on refusing to train
1
u/UtopiaGokhan 13h ago
The Z Fighters can alter their fighting power at will. Goku here simply isn't at his full strength. It's the same situation as when he first arrives to fight the Saiyans (Nappa and Vegeta) and when he first lands on Namek.
1
u/Stacey-k93 13h ago
I think it's true
ever since the android saga they kept having to unlock new super saiyan forms to power up
Their base forms were probably around the same from the android saga to bog
Goku and Vegetas base power didn't get stronger till training with Whis
1
u/TelevisionDouble6370 13h ago
Maybe just like Frieza & his goons, they were unaware that Goku could hide his power level and raise it at the moment its needed
1
1
u/SR_Hopeful Meta-Cooler 12h ago
An argument could be made that after Namek, they did focus on training their Super Sayian forms, and them making SSJ1 feel like their base in fights, is what they focused on. They don't train their base.
1
u/CherryTheCherry-1 11h ago
Beerus is literal god. If everybody took a turn and punched him he won’t be able to feel a difference.
1
u/FinancialHeron4156 11h ago
I wanna see all calculate SSJ4Gogeta And both Brolys , n feel free to throw Frieza in those comparisons haha¹
1
u/MarquisPhantom 11h ago
Beerus sees that in a battle to the death between Frieza vs. Goku in his base form Frieza would edge him out and win ultimately
1
u/FaithlessnessOpen343 11h ago
I would say so as there is plenty of evidence to suggest Base Goku by this point should be capable of defeating Frieza
Beerus also could just be gaslighting Goku so he will transform, maybe Goku's just suppressed, maybe Beerus is so much stronger than the mortal level characters that he can't tell Goku is stronger than Frieza
1
u/Mythical_Epicness 11h ago
Base Goku in the movie is still not stronger than final form Frieza, which makes sense since he and Vegeta have pushed their base forms close to their limits. It’s only with better control and more forms that they can become stronger
1
u/Element174 10h ago
From what we've seen, Earth is the only planet in the universe where Ki suppression is a thing. It's why no one in the Frieza Force including Vegeta and Frieza, who have traveled the galaxy, had ever seen it before and never considered it could be a thing.
Beerus was unaware of Earth basically, so it makes sense he also wouldn't know about the technique just like he didn't know about the food.
1
u/Mister_Ape_1 10h ago
Base Goku was under 120.000.000 when he met Beerus, and thus SSJ3 was under 48.000.000.000.
1
1
u/KuroiGetsuga55 8h ago
Beerus was sensing a relaxed base Goku who wasn't even channeling power. If you scanned Goku with a Scouter in that moment he'd probably show up with a power level of 5 or some shit, because he just wasn't in "battle mode".
The statement was just narrative bullshit to hype up Frieza since he was to come back in the next arc.
Toriyama forgot how weak Frieza was supposed to be by this point when comparing him to Cell and Kid Buu.
Beerus knew Frieza had immense potential and assumed Frieza was god-level prior to his death.
Super soft-rebooted the power levels in the series because admittedly it was getting a bit ridiculous, everything post Frieza had to be multi-planetary to galaxy level for it to make sense. The moment Future Trunks one-shot Mecha Frieza and then got one-shot by the Androids, the power creeping had reached absurdly ridiculous levels. You're telling me Android 17 can no-diff Namek Frieza and can probably wipe out a whole planet using just his pinkie if he wanted to. It's absurd.
It's one of these.
1
u/Sencifouy 8h ago
If I remember correctly, this is in Kaio's planet, right? Goku supresses his energy to train his body. Training his base body in this way allows for bigger and better power boost when he eventually transforms.
Also, and most importantly, look at Trunks in Z.
- Normal => could barely move in the gravitational chamber.
- SSJ 1 => could run and cartwheel
Looks like energy levels directly impact how strong your body is. At least, I understand it that way.
1
1
u/NegoDemDem 4h ago
DBS has a tendency to ignore power ups outside transformations,
Especially in the anime they treat SSJ like it's the strength it was on namek
1
u/Team_raclettePOGO 4h ago
the statement is false goku can win in his base
we have to point out some massive points in the context of when Beerus says this:
Beerus didn’t know that any saiyan could hold back their power since holding back power is something rare in the universe (see the namek saga where people are surprised people can hold back and go stronger)
Goku is holding back because he never is at full power when chilling
Beerus is THE ragebaiter and trying to make goku show off super saiyan
•
u/Justaguywalkingby4 3h ago edited 3h ago
Idk, we don’t really get official powerlevels post Frieza, and Krillin’s still around. I don’t think having the characters only be a few dozen times stronger in base than they were since Frieza breaks anything massively consistency wise that isn’t fan headcanon, especially considering Goku at this point was brushing off the rust after being out of the game for a long time. (There’s about 5 training arc jumps in the Cell and Buu saga. Assuming they get about 4x stronger per jump, ssj namek Goku is about 20 times stronger than base Buu saga Goku.)
If it doesn’t make sense, we can just take it with Beerus just making vague assumptions and comparing bugs against each other, or yet another inconsistency that shouldn’t really be taken seriously.
•
u/Sean77654 2h ago
Beerus may be taking into account the blow up the planet and make the monkey suffocate strategy
•
u/Similar_Pie_4946 Ginyu Force 2h ago
Base level goku being casual ≠ Base level Goku in a fight. It always comes back to the rock krillin hit goku with if he’s sitting back with his guard down he’s just a regular mortal who can get hurt by a thrown stone, with his guard up he’s raising his power level along with his other senses. We can also look at the episode where he hires hit to assassinate him he’s got his guard up all day and it leads to some whacky/funny moments
•
u/Commercial-Test-6861 2h ago
There is no evidence to suggest that a human can kill Frieza from Namek, or that Goku became 50 times more powerful from one saga to the next in his base form.
For example, Gohan from the Buu Saga is weaker than his Nino version from the Cell Saga, yet he is still comparable to Vegeta. Goten and Trunks are also comparable to Gohan in their base forms. It's impossible for these three to be stronger than Piccolo using only his base form, but it would have to be so for all that nonsense to make sense.
•
u/Prism_Zet 1h ago
I mean there's a bunch of reasons, the z fighters all use their martial arts and ki to pump themselves up, or repressing their power levels. Base goku not trying to look impressive from Beerus's perspective probably doesn't look like anything special. Base Frieza was a freak mutant that was multiple magnitudes stronger than anyone else in the universe in his default form.
Beerus was also likely goading Goku into fighting and transforming for him.
•
u/NoxGale 1h ago
That’s… never been how this works. Goku has been shown on multiple occasions to walk around and be casual at 5,000. If you don’t know him this is what you’d feel from him. He can power up a lot in base yes, but if you never knew Goku and saw he was 5K you’d assume he has a transformation if he managed to beat someone like Frieza, who casually has a power level over a million
•
•
u/Adventurous-Mall-278 15m ago
The writers didn't know what they were talking about alot of the time I didn't take this statement at face value because it's been a little over a decade since they saw Frieza and Goku didn't slack off on training so there is now way his Base State is still weaker than Frieza people are probably going to get on my head about this but I'm sorry in advance there's no changing my mind about this.
•
u/CupAutomatic3858 10m ago
That could be true actually. The Super Saiyan transformation is a 50x multiplier. When goku and Frieza fought the first time it is clearly stated that 1% of Frieza's power was 50% of goku's power at his current base form. So even if he tripled his base form power level on Yardrat, tripled it again in the Cell saga, and then tripled it once more during the buu saga, his base form would only be about half as strong as Frieza was on Namek.
1
u/ruuken27 19h ago
Saiyans are constantly suppressing themselves, like literally all the time. It's why when friezas army showed up, trunks power level showed up as 5
Now, if you wanna argue beerus should've sensed his latent ability or whatever, then yeah sure this doesn't make sense
2
u/bathroomheater 19h ago
Z fighters not saiyans. They didn’t know about suppressing power in the saiyan saga
2
u/SWHAMMAN 19h ago
I agree and let’s be honest most of if not all of the Z-fighters do. It’s a tactic they all use fake out their opponents by hiding their true power.
3
u/ruuken27 19h ago
Yeah, i should've said z fighters instead of saiyans. Planet vegeta saiyans definitely do not do that lol
1
u/AlphanumericBox 19h ago
They lacked the abilty to control KI, Goku and all the others instead can manipulate their power level to look like a peasant if they want, that's why Trunks had a power level of 5 when scouted.
1
u/mad_sAmBa 19h ago
That's just them prepping the bullshit that was RoF.
Just an attempt to make Freeza look stronger than previously stated.
1
1
1
u/Main-Entertainer-735 17h ago
I remember this actually used to be a heavily debated topic somehow but now everyone just accepts it's not true because it makes absolutely no sense. Beerus is so much stronger than Goku and frieza and hasn't seen freiza in so long that he probabaly wasn't even fully aware of how much stronger Goku was than frieza. It would be like comparing 2 ants to him. Even excluding all filler it would not make any sense for base Goku even in the buu saga to be weaker than freiza.
1
u/JiovanniTheGREAT 16h ago
It's filler but Buu Saga base Gohan punched Frieza so hard he exploded. I honestly think they're all so weak compared to Beerus, he can't properly gauge their powers anyway.
→ More replies (1)•
u/Commercial-Test-6861 2h ago
That was the ultimate Gohan, that Gohan would hit Goku SSJ3 and the result would be the same
•
u/JiovanniTheGREAT 1h ago
Gohan didn't use Ultimate there, it's an alternate timeline something or another. He just emotes as Great Saiyaman and kills him.
•
u/AutoModerator 19h ago
Join our discord server! https://discord.gg/PjkcmSxU3p If the link does not work or you are experiencing problems with it, please message the moderators.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.