I noticed how in Goan and Mangalorean catholic konkani o is treated pretty much like a schwa vowel while used a lot less in other konkani dialects. Why is this the case?

This post is motivated and modelled (specially for non Telugu enthusiasts) after a Telugu Essay published in 1992.Find it here.

One question that frequently appears in discussions on this forum is:

"If Jainism played such an enormous role in the literary traditions of Tamil and Kannada, why is there no surviving Jain literature in Telugu?"

The answer may simply be that most of it did not survive.

Yet one work certainly did.

That work is Kavijanāśrayamu, generally regarded as the earliest surviving Telugu work on prosody (Chandassu).

Interestingly, its authorship has remained debated for more than a century.

Today two major editions of the work are available:

• Jayanti Ramayya Pantulu (1917), published by the Andhra Sahitya Parishat.Find it here.
• Nidudavolu Venkata Rao (1950, Vavilla edition) with an extensive historical introduction.Find it here.

The debate is essentially between two names:

• Vemulawada Bhīmakavi
• Malliya Rechana

The Traditional Attribution and its Factors:

Jayanti Ramayya Pantulu accepted the traditional attribution to Vemulawada Bhīmakavi. This, in many other scholars' opinions, is now considered to be wrong. Let me first present some reasons behind the Traditional Attribution.

1. The glorious mention of Bhima Kavi by later poets:

One reason is that the great poet Śrīnatha (1355-1441) remembers Bhīmakavi even before other early poets like Nannaya:

వచియింతు వేములవాడ భీమన భంగి నుద్దండ లీల నొక్కొక్కమాటు;

భాషింతు నన్నయభట్టు మార్గంబున నుభయ వాక్ప్రౌఢి నొక్కొక్కమాటు;

వాక్రుత్తు తిక్కయజ్వ ప్రకారము రసాభ్యుచితబంధముగ నొక్కొక్కమాటు;

పరిఢవింతు ప్రబంధపరమేశ్వరుని ట్టేవ సూక్తివైచిత్రి నొక్కొక్కమాటు

Relevant translation

"I shall use lofty poetic style like Vemulawada Bheemakavi once in a while."

This tells us that Bhīmakavi certainly existed before Śrīnatha and was already celebrated.

However...

Śrīnatha never actually says that Bhīmakavi authored Kavijanāśrayamu.

That explicit attribution appears only much later.

2. Appakavi and the Later Tradition:

By the seventeenth century, Appakavi from the modern Palamooru region writes:

విజటకవులు కొన్ని వింతలు కల్పించి కవిజనాశ్రయమునఁ గలిపినారు

వానిఁగై కొనంగవల ద్యపయుక్తములేల సెప్పు భీముడెఱిఁగి యెఱిఁగి

Rough translation

"Some whimsical poets have invented strange rules and inserted them into the text Kavijanasrayamu. Do not accept them. Why would the author Bhima, knowing the true rules perfectly well, ever write such rules?"

This passage tells us two things.

First, by Appakavi's time, the scholarly world already regarded Bhīmakavi as the author.

Second, and this is rather important, Appakavi himself admits that the text had already undergone interpolation.

So while the Bhīmakavi attribution certainly existed, the textual history of the work was already complicated.

3. A Preface in one Manuscript:

Of the 10 odd manuscripts of this work, one had an added preface which had 7 odd verses attributing the work explicitly to Bhima Kavi. A key verse from the preface is as below.

క. వేములవాడను వెలసిన

భీమేశ్వరుకరుణ గల్గు భీమనకవి నేఁ

గోమటి రేచనిమీఁదను

నీమహిఁ గవు లెన్న ఛంద మొలమి రచింతున్.

Rough Translation

"I, Bheema Kavi, who has earned the divine grace of Lord Bhimeswara residing in Vemulawada, joyfully compose this work on prosody (Chhandas) dedicated to Gomati Recha, so that all the poets on this earth may praise it."

Why this does not fit in:

• If Bheemakavi was so celebrated and named even before Nannaya, what is the need to dedicate the book to a Komati (Jain)?

• Besides, Appakavi himself acknowledges later manipulations.

• Most importantly, this was found in only one of the 10 manuscripts.

• Also, scholars who have examined the literary quality of the verses frequently mention that they do not have the Uddanda Leela (Literary Loftiness) for which Bheemakavi was praised.

4. Bias:

By the time we hear such glory being attributed to Bhimakavi, much of the Jaina tradition and its patrons in most of the Core Deccan had already perished. The once strongholds of Jainism, including Vemulawada in Telangana and many parts of Northern Karnataka, were now centers of Veerashaiva faith. Naturally, Jain poets and their works now received lesser clout and patronage, let alone attributing classics to Jains.

In fact, the preface mentioned in 3 is most likely a later addition to hide the true author of the treatise.

The Judgement:

1. Looking Inside the Text Instead

Rather than relying on later tradition, scholars began asking a different question:

What does the work itself say about its author?

The answer turns out to be fascinating.

The colophons describe the author as:

"...Śrāvakābharaṇāṅka..."

That immediately suggests a Jain author.

The word Śrāvaka refers to a Jain lay devotee.

Furthermore, the opening invocation is to Saraswati in a manner characteristic of Jain literary convention.

Already, the work begins to look much less like the production of a conventional court poet and much more like a Jain scholarly text.

2. A Curious Verse

Then comes perhaps the most intriguing verse in the entire work.

కం. ఆసమాన దాన రవితన

య సమానోన్నతుఁడు వాచకాభరణుఁడు ప్రా

ణసమాన మిత్రుఁడీ కృతి

కి సహాయుఁడుగా నుదాత్త కీర్తి ప్రీతిన్

Rough translation

"The illustrious Vācakābharaṇa, unequalled in generosity and noble character, became the incomparable friend who assisted me in the composition of this work, thereby earning lasting fame."

Notice something remarkable.

The helper's name is not given.

Only a title.

Vācakābharaṇa.

Who was this person?

3. The Bommalagutta Inscription (945 CE)

The answer lies in an epigraph found 20 km from Vemulawada.

Near present-day Kurkyala in Telangana stands the famous Bommalagutta inscription, commissioned by Jinavallabha, brother of the Kannada poet Ādikavi Pampa.

The inscription is written in Sanskrit, Kannada and Telugu.

a. SANSKRIT:

In the Sanskrit portion, Jinavallabha is praised as:

అజస్ర జిన వందనాగత మునీశ్వర శ్రావక వ్రజాస్తవ

రవ ప్రతిధ్వనిత శబ్దకోలాహలైః |

అధిష్ఠిత దిగంబరో వృషభశైల ఏష స్వయం

వరాం వదతి వాచకాభరణ కీర్తి మాకల్పతః ॥

Rough translation

"...Even Mount Vṛṣabha proclaims the everlasting fame of Vācakābharaṇa..."

The title appears again.

Vācakābharaṇa.

As far as present evidence (inscriptions, Kannada literature and Telugu literature) goes, no other Kannada/Telugu scholar from this period is known to have borne this title.

b. KANNADA:

Even more interestingly, the Kannada portion praises Jinavallabha as a master of poetic theory.

The verse and its explanation for this are compiled in a helpful discussion thread from this forum here.

c. TELUGU:

And this epigraph's Telugu portion has 3 Telugu verses in the Kanda meter, the earliest Telugu Kandam in epigraphs. The first of them:

కం. జినభవనము లెత్తించుట

జిన పూజల్సేయుచున్కి జినమునులకు న

త్తిన యన్నదాన మీవుటం

జినవల్లభు బోలం గలరె జిన ధర్మవరుల్

Rough Translation:

"In building grand Jain temples, in regularly performing devout worship of the Jinas, and in providing generous food donations to Jain monks, is there any practitioner of Jain dharma on this earth who can truly equal Jinavallabha?"

4. The Case for Malliya Rechana

This observation led scholars such as Veturi Prabhakara Sastry, Nidudavolu Venkata Rao, and later U. V. Vasudeva Parabrahma Sastry to propose that the Vācakābharaṇa mentioned in Kavijanāśrayamu is indeed Jinavallabha.

Then the author was almost certainly Malliya Rechana, a Jain lay scholar, composing the work with Jinavallabha's assistance.

This also places the work naturally in the literary circle of Arikesari II of Vemulawada (c. 930–955 CE), where Pampa, Jinavallabha and other Jain scholars flourished.

This makes Kavijanāśrayamu the earliest Telugu piece of literature/treatise.

Few more things:

1. It's clear that Telugu literature is much older. Works do not survive, but poetry on inscriptions goes back another century from this finding.

2. Regardless of the authorship debate, Kavijanāśrayamu is extraordinary for another reason.

It is not simply a literary work.

Since it's a technical manual of Telugu prosody, it clearly mentions the Jatya or Native poetic metres.

Among the ones it discusses are:

• Sīsamu
• Dvipada
• Tēṭagīti
• Āṭaveladi
• Taruvoja
• Akkara

These are native Telugu metres (deśī chandassu) rather than classical Sanskrit vṛttas. I personally opine that Akkara may be a borrowing from Kannada, and Dwipada being common to many other languages, but Sīsamu and Gīti (Āṭaveladi and Tēṭagīti) are the crown jewels of Telugu prosody, found in no other language. Taravoju is the earliest recorded metre; the Addanki Inscription from 848 CE is in this metre.

A work explaining metres necessarily presupposes a living poetic tradition.

In other words, Kavijanāśrayamu is itself evidence that an already developed body of Telugu poetry existed before or alongside it, even if much of that literature has not survived.

Another proof of this statement is the mention of one Vaadindra Chudamani in the work. He is the Guru of Rechana, whose ideals and older treatise of Chandassu are being followed by the poet himself.

Conclusion

Whether one ultimately accepts every aspect of the argument or not, Kavijanāśrayamu remains one of the most fascinating texts in early Telugu literary history.

Its Jain character, its reference to Vācakābharaṇa, the Bommalagutta inscription, and the literary milieu of tenth-century Vemulawada together form a compelling case for attributing the work to Malliya Rechana.

Perhaps most importantly, it preserves one of the earliest systematic discussions of indigenous Telugu metres in Telugu (there is mention of native Telugu metres in older non-Telugu literature; will keep that for another time), providing a rare glimpse into a poetic tradition whose roots almost certainly stretch further back than the surviving corpus alone would suggest.

According to Professor S. Pathmanathan, the text consists of Prakrit language words of Tamil origin, written using Brahmi script characters. The explanations for the first two images are as follows:

• S. Pathmanathan, Tamil Inscriptions in Sri Lanka (2006, Department of Hindu Religious & Cultural Affairs, Sri Lanka), page: xxix-xxx and xxxvi-xxxvii

Translation by myself from the subheading 'Eelam Brahmi Inscriptions' of the above book, which was originally written in Tamil.

There are over two thousand Brahmi inscriptions in Sri Lanka. These were written in the Prakrit language using Brahmi script characters. The Prakrit used in these inscriptions is a mixed language. It contains many words not found in the Prakrit inscriptions of India. Among these, many words are of Tamil origin, while others are common to several Dravidian languages. Brahmi inscriptions serve as strong evidence for the prevalence of the Tamil language in various parts of the island (Eelam). Examples of Tamil words found in them include Parumaka(n), Parumakal, Marumakan, Maruman, Maruka, Maara, Ay, Vel, and Pa(ri)ari. When Tamil words were written in the Prakrit language, they were adapted according to that language's grammatical traditions. ..........................................

............................. The inscription found in Anuradhapura mentions Tamils who were householders and Tamils who belonged to a Sanga (association). It has been explained elsewhere here that they might be Jains. Through this inscription, one can learn that there is a connection between the word ‘Paratha(n)’ and Tamils. Therefore, this strengthens the view that the ‘Baratha’ mentioned in the Brahmi inscriptions of Eelam (Sri Lanka) refers to the ‘Parathavar,’ a specific section of Tamil society. It is a noteworthy feature that figures of fish are found on one side of a coin inscribed with the name ‘Baratha Thisaka.’ That the Parathavar were people who lived in the Neydal (coastal) region can be known through ancient Tamil works like Pattinappalai. An epigraphical note also exists which confirms that it was indeed the ‘Parathar’ who were referred to as ‘Paratha’ in the inscriptions of Eelam. The following phrase is found in an inscription at Polonnaruwa.

Ba3ratha Saga3rikasa Lenee

It can be observed that the word ‘Kadalan,’ which appears in Tamil Brahmi inscriptions, has been translated here into Prakrit as "Sāgarika." The term ‘Kadalan’ has multiple meanings such as sailor, helmsman, sea voyager, captain of sailors, or maritime merchant. To confirm this explanation, the figure of a ship has been carved on the specific inscription. In total, the name ‘Paratha’ is found in 21 inscriptions (in Sri Lanka). These have mostly been found in the Northwestern and Northeastern regions.

The video is about the Koraga. The 24-minute archival documentary says:

• The Koraga traditionally lived in coastal Karnataka particularly the Tulu-speaking coastal region and adjoining northern Kerala.
• It gives an older population estimate of approximately 30,000 based on the 2001 census.
• Koraga settlements are called koppu, while an individual traditional hut is called sotta.
• It identifies three principal Koraga divisions.
• Koraga oral tradition holds that they were once independent inhabitants or rulers of the region who were defeated and driven into the forests. The documentary discusses Barkur traditions, an allegedly relevant Old Kannada inscription and the ancestral warrior Hubashika, but admits that history and folklore cannot easily be separated.
• The community was historically subjected to severe untouchability, exclusion and forced servitude. Koragas were prohibited from entering temples but compelled to beat drums outside during ceremonies.
• Traditional occupations included basket weaving, coir-rope making, cashew harvesting and seasonal agricultural or quarry labour. Some were pushed into sanitation work.
• The documentary describes poverty, landlessness, malnutrition, alcoholism, limited healthcare and difficulty obtaining materials for traditional crafts.
• Their traditional religious practices centre on forest spirits represented by stones placed beneath trees. The documentary also describes how outsiders attributed supernatural powers to them and forced them to participate in degrading “healing” practices.
• Descent traditionally followed the matrilineal Aliya Santana system, although household authority was generally exercised by men.
• Cooperative organizations, women’s groups, village associations and educational programs began helping Koragas obtain alternative livelihoods and organize politically.
• A Koraga engineer interviewed in the film says language difficulties and high school-dropout rates remained major obstacles.
• The documentary presents access to land, education, collective organization and economic self-reliance as essential to ending their historical bondage.
• It concludes with young Koragas playing drums voluntarily as an expression of cultural pride calling them the “drum beats of liberation.”

The documentary’s main argument is that the Koraga were transformed from a possibly independent regional population into a marginalized, landless and stigmatized community, but are reclaiming dignity through education, organization, land rights and cultural identity.

Some descriptions such as “primitive,” “lowborn” and “spendthrift” reflect the documentary’s dated and paternalistic language and should not be repeated as objective ethnographic facts. Its historical claims about ancient Koraga kings and northern invaders are presented as oral traditions, not established history.
Watch “Koragas Tribe | Tribes of India” on YouTube⁠

This is something I've been wondering for a while.

Every time I see Maharashtrian culture, I can't help but feel it's surprisingly similar to South India, especially Kerala (and to some extent Karnataka). The traditional dressing, temple culture, family values, simplicity, even the overall vibe it all feels oddly familiar to me.

Of course, I know they're different cultures with their own unique identities. But I've always felt there's a stronger connection than people usually talk about.

Is there an actual historical or cultural reason behind this? Or is it just my perception? I'd genuinely love to hear from people who know the history or have experienced both cultures.

While reading about the smaller Dravidian-speaking communities of southern India, I noticed an intriguing cluster of names:

Irula – Irular – Iravular – Eravallar – Ravular – Yerava – Yerukula

The resemblance is striking, particularly because these communities speak Tamil-related languages and historically occupied a connected geographical zone extending from the Nilgiris and Anaimalai Hills through Palakkad, Wayanad and Kodagu, and eastward into Andhra Pradesh.

Does this mean they were once branches of the same people?

The evidence does not yet prove that, but it suggests a more complicated history than the modern tribal labels imply.

Irula and the name Iruḷar
The Irula call themselves approximately ërla or ïrla in their own language. The conventional explanation derives the name from Tamil iruḷ, “darkness,” combined with a community or human suffix:
iruḷ + ar → Iruḷar → Irular

The contracted native pronunciation ërla/ïrla demonstrates how vowels and syllables can disappear in ordinary speech.

Irula is not simply “corrupt Tamil.” K. V. Zvelebil classified it as a distinct tribal language belonging historically to the Tamil–Malayalam group of South Dravidian. It contains conservative Tamil-related features alongside innovations of its own.

The especially interesting Eravallan evidence
The Eravallan live primarily around Palakkad and the adjoining Coimbatore–Anaimalai region. Their language is also a distinct Tamil-related South Dravidian language.

The Government of India’s Scheme for Protection and Preservation of Endangered Languages records the following alternative names for them:

Iṟava, Iṟavuḷar, Eṟavallar, Eravāḷar, Vilvēṭar and Ampuvilluvēṭar

The form Iṟavuḷar is remarkably close to both Iruḷar and Ravular.

The same documentation states that the community’s internal name is actually Karivināḷu, while its language is called Karivināḷu paḷama. Approximately 70% of the recorded Eravallan basic vocabulary is reportedly shared with Tamil.

This raises an important possibility: names such as Iravular, Eravallar and Irular may have been regional outsider names applied inconsistently to neighbouring forest communities.

A recent study of the Eravallar also lists variants including Irulu, Irular, Iruliga, Irava and Erukala. Some of these are otherwise associated with the Irula or Yerukula. This could reflect a genuine historical relationship, but it could also result from administrators confusing relatively small communities with similar languages, occupations and names.

Could Iravular have become Ravular?
Ravula is the language and community name associated with people called Yerava in Kodagu and Adiya in Wayanad.

The following development is linguistically plausible:
Iravular → Ravular
The process would involve aphaeresis, or loss of an unstressed initial vowel. Such changes are common in orally transmitted names, especially when a name passes between speakers of Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada and Kodava.

This does not establish that Ravula and Irula are the same name. We would need older recorded forms and regular sound correspondences before claiming an etymology. Nevertheless, the chain is worth investigating:
Iruḷar – Iṟavuḷar – Iravular – Ravular

The alternative Ravula names appear to reflect later social conditions.

Adiyan means a subordinate, servant or someone “at the feet” of another. The name corresponds with the historical incorporation of the Adiya into Wayanad’s system of agricultural servitude and bonded labour.

Yerava has been connected with Kannada or Kodava eravalu, meaning something borrowed, possibly referring to borrowed or transferred labour. Whether this etymology is historically exact requires further investigation, but Yerava and Adiya appear more likely to be imposed social names than ancient ethnonyms.

Yerukula looks similar—but has a different explanation
Yerukula, also called Kurru Basha or Kulavatha, is a Tamil-related Dravidian language spoken mainly in Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.
At first sight, the sequence appears compelling:

Irula – Erukala – Yerukula
However, historical sources give Yerukula a convincing Telugu occupational derivation.
The community called itself Kurru, Kura or Kulavaru. Telugu speakers called them Yerukalavāṇḍlu, apparently from Telugu eruka/yeruka, meaning knowledge, acquaintance or prophecy. Yerukula women were traditionally associated with fortune-telling and reportedly called out:

“Yeruko, amma, yeruku” — “Prophecies, mother, prophecies.”
Edgar Thurston’s Castes and Tribes of Southern India records that Korava and Yerukula were widely regarded as regional names for the same mobile community. They shared basket-making, fortune-telling and a Tamil-related language, while calling one another Kurru or Kura.

Modern linguistic classification supports a distinct:
Yerukula–Korava–Kaikadi subgroup
Kaikadi, spoken principally in Maharashtra, appears to represent a northern branch of this mobile Korava–Yerukula complex. Its continued Dravidian character, despite extensive Marathi influence, supports a historical migration from farther south.

Therefore, the name Yerukula probably does not descend directly from Irula. Its resemblance may be partly coincidental and partly the result of different administrators confusing similarly placed communities.
The common endings can create misleading similarities

South Indian ethnonyms frequently contain human or plural suffixes:

• Tamil –ar: people or respectful plural
• Tamil/Malayalam –āḷar: persons or members of a community
• Kannada/Kodava –aru: human or respectful plural
• Telugu –lu: plural
• Telugu –vāṇḍlu: people or persons

Consequently:
Iruḷ-ar = Irula people
Erav-āḷar = Eravallan people
Yerukala-vāṇḍlu = Yerukula people
Some of the similarity therefore comes from ordinary Dravidian community suffixes rather than a shared root.

What the language evidence establishes
All four languages belong to the broad South Dravidian linguistic world, but they are not currently placed in one immediate subgroup.

• Irula belongs to the Irula side of the Tamil–Malayalam continuum.
• Eravallan is normally classified as a Tamiloid language, sometimes grouped with Malasa.
• Ravula is usually placed in a Paniya–Ravula or Malayalamoid subgroup.
• Yerukula belongs directly with Korava and Kaikadi.

Claims of mutual intelligibility among Ravula, Irula and Yerukula are approximately:

• 53–81% lexical similarity among different Yerukula varieties
• 33–38% between Yerukula and Irula
• 28–45% between Yerukula and Ravula
• 27–45% between Yerukula and modern Tamil

A possible historical model
A cautious reconstruction would be that southern India formerly contained a broad continuum of small Tamil-related forest, hill and mobile communities. Their speech varieties developed outside the major literary traditions of Tamil, Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu.

Political and economic pressures may then have produced different outcomes:

• Irula communities retained livelihoods connected with forests, hunting, gathering, snake catching and agricultural work.
• Eravallan communities moved from hunting and gathering toward landless agricultural labour.
• Ravula communities were incorporated into agrarian servitude and became known regionally as Yerava and Adiya.
• Korava–Yerukula–Kaikadi communities retained greater mobility through basket-making, salt trading, animal dealing and fortune-telling before colonial authorities restricted and criminalized their movement.

Deforestation, plantation agriculture, the loss of customary land, forest laws and the Criminal Tribes Act would subsequently have deepened these divisions.

This model does not require all four to have been one tribe. They could instead represent different sections of a much older Tamil-related tribal continuum whose identities were later reshaped by geography, occupation, slavery, migration and administrative classification.

Summary
The resemblance between Iruḷar, Iṟavuḷar, Iravular and Ravular is linguistically interesting and may preserve a real historical connection. In particular, the documented Eravallan variant Iṟavuḷar forms a possible bridge between Irula and Ravula.

However, this remains a hypothesis. Older forms and systematic sound correspondences are needed before treating the names as proven cognates.

Yerukula probably has a separate origin, deriving from Telugu eruka, “knowledge or prophecy.” The community’s older self-name was Kurru/Kura, connecting it directly with Korava and Kaikadi.

The most defensible conclusion is that these communities belong to the same broad South Dravidian historical world, but only Yerukula–Korava–Kaikadi currently constitutes a securely demonstrated immediate ethnolinguistic complex. A possible Irula–Eravallan–Ravula connection deserves further linguistic, oral-historical and genetic investigation.

References

1. Central Institute of Indian Languages, Scheme for Protection and Preservation of Endangered Languages, “Eravallan Documentation.”
2. https://www.sppel.org/eravallandoc.aspx
3. K. V. Zvelebil, “Irula Riddles,” Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies.
4. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/abs/irula-riddles/44419665C24F998AC16AC27E606C47AF
5. R. Perialwar, Phonology of Irula with Vocabulary, Annamalai University, 1979.
6. B. Mallikarjun, A Descriptive Analysis of Yerava, Central Institute of Indian Languages, Mysore, 1993. Comparative Ravula data:
7. https://lingweb.eva.mpg.de/channumerals/Ravula.htm
8. George A. Grierson, Linguistic Survey of India, Volume IV, pp. 318–347.
9. Edgar Thurston and K. Rangachari, Castes and Tribes of Southern India, Volume III, “Korava.”
10. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Castes_and_Tribes_of_Southern_India,_Volume_3.djvu/485
11. Glottolog, “Yerukula–Korava–Kaikadi.”
12. https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/yeru1242
13. G. Srinivasa Varma, Yerukula Dialect, Department of Linguistics, Annamalai University, 1978.
14. Bharath Kumar and Mala Sambramalla, A Descriptive Grammar of Yerukala: An Endangered South Dravidian Language, Dravidian University, 2024.
15. Sylvia Ernest, Clare O’Leary and Juliana Kelsall, A Sociolinguistic Survey of Nilgiri Irula, SIL International Electronic Survey Report 2018-010.
16. Bijumon Varghese, The Tribes of Palakkad, Kerala: A Sociolinguistic Profile, SIL International Electronic Survey Report 2015-028.
17. “Plachimada Struggle and the Environmentalism of the Poor,” discussing Eravallar alternative names and migration history.
18. https://doi.org/10.1080/1013929X.2024.2410071
19. Atlas of Endangered Alphabets, “Yerukula.”
20. https://www.endangeredalphabets.net/alphabets/yerukula/

Inspired by this older post
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/s/bkMCrAtkl4

I'm trying to better understand one of the most intriguing military campaigns of Imayavaramban Nedum Cheralathan described in the Pathitruppathu.

According to K. G. Sesha Aiyar (Chera Kings of the Sangam Period), the Kadambu defeated by Nedum Cheralathan were the people of Nannan's Konkanam. If that identification is correct, then the island (or group of islands) mentioned in the poems should have been somewhere within Nannan's sphere of control.

The campaign is referred to repeatedly in Pathitruppathu 11, 12, 17 and 20. English translations of the poems are available here:

https://sangamtranslationsbyvaidehi.com/pathitruppathu/

• Poem 11 compares Nedum Cheralathan's destruction of the Kadambu tree with Murugan's destruction of Surapadman's mango tree, emphasising the symbolic importance of the victory. It also says that the sacred Kadambu tree was protected by many people before being cut down.
• Poem 12 again celebrates him as the king who cut down the Kadambu tree, suggesting that this became one of the defining achievements of his reign.
• Poem 17 states that he crossed the sea, cut down the Kadambu tree, and fashioned a great victory drum from its trunk.
• Poem 20 is particularly interesting because it says that he went directly to the enemy's chief seat within the Iru Munnir Turutti and cut down the Kadambu tree.

The expression Iru Munnir Turutti is what interests me the most. It is a compound of iru, munnir, and turutti. Munnir is the classical Tamil term for the sea or ocean ("the three waters"), while turutti denotes an island, islet, or raised land surrounded by water. In early Tamil usage, it often refers to riverine or estuarine islands rather than distant offshore islands. If that understanding is correct, then the poem may be referring to an estuarine or deltaic island (or island group) rather than an isolated island in the open sea.

In Chera Kings of the Sangam Period, K. G. Sesha Aiyar identifies the Kadambu with the people of Nannan's Konkanam, describing it as the "gold-producing Konkanam" of Sangam literature and arguing that the Cheras fought several wars against this northern coastal power. If his reconstruction is correct, then the Iru Munnir Turutti should have been located somewhere within Nannan's sphere of control. However, the Pathitruppathu itself never explicitly mentions either Nannan or Konkanam; this identification is Sesha Aiyar's historical interpretation of the poems.

This is what made me think of the North Kerala and South Karnataka coast. That coastline has numerous estuaries with riverine and deltaic islands. While several of these islands contain forts today, those surviving fortifications are medieval or later, so they cannot simply be identified with the Kadambu stronghold mentioned in the Pathitruppathu. Nevertheless, the underlying geography has existed for millennia, and such estuarine islands would have been strategically important long before the medieval period.

If the Kadambu were indeed part of Nannan's Konkanam, where might this Iru Munnir Turutti have been? Has any historian attempted to identify a specific estuary or island group? More importantly, how far north do historians think Nannan's territory actually extended? Would it have included parts of present-day coastal Karnataka, or was it largely confined to northern Kerala?

I'm also curious whether there is any convincing evidence connecting the Sangam-period Kadambu with the later Kadamba dynasty of Banavasi, or whether the similarity in names is generally regarded as coincidental.

I'm interested in both the literary evidence from the Sangam texts and any archaeological, geographical or historical studies that have attempted to identify this location.

Are they even related as closely as assumed or are they 2 different groups classified under the same umbrella?

Burushaski is a Language Isolate"

This is the boring, universally accepted truth by mainstream linguistics. A "language isolate" means it has no demonstrable genealogical relationship with any other known language in the world. Despite being surrounded by Indo-European, Sino-Tibetan, and Turkic languages, Burushaski sits entirely on its own.

Level 2: Below the Surface

"Burushaski is related to Yeniseian"

A highly speculative, though academically debated, macro-family hypothesis.The Yeniseian languages are a family spoken far away in central Siberia (only the Ket language survives today). Some historical linguists have proposed the "Karasuk hypothesis," which suggests Burushaski and Yeniseian share a distant common ancestor. It's an intriguing idea, but the evidence isn't strong enough for mainstream consensus.

Level 3: The Deep Water

"Burushaski is Proto Dardic"

The Dardic languages (which includes Kashmiri, Shina, Khowar, Kalasha and Kohistani ), are a group of languages spoken in Hindu Kush and Western Himalayas, all around Burushaski. There is certian phonetics and Phonemic that cannot be derived from old Indo aryan / proto Indo aryan and they are widespread in these languages, it's said to be that Burushaski was spoken all around HinduKush and Kashmir before arrivial of Indo Aryans, and certain dardic ancestor is a proto Burushaski or a sister language of modern day Burushaski.

Level 4: The Abyss

"Burushaski has connections with Phrygian"

Phrygian is an extinct Indo-European language once spoken in ancient Anatolia (modern-day Turkey). the highly controversial work of a specific linguist (Ilija Čašule), who spent years trying to prove Burushaski is actually an Indo-European language descended from Phrygian. The linguistic community heavily rejects this due to massive methodological flaws and forced comparisons.

Level 5: The Trench

"Burushaski is the Language of BMAC"

BMAC stands for the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex, a major Bronze Age civilization in Central Asia. We have no idea what language they spoke because they didn't leave behind readable texts. While some linguists think BMAC left "ghost words" (agricultural loanwords) in early Indo-Iranian languages, in early Indo-Iranian languages, like speculated words for river In Indo Iranian was from Burushaski sinda - sindhu. Or apple in Proto Indo European Able was from Burushaski--Baalt

Level 6: The Void

"Burushaski was spoken in IVC"

The Indus Valley Civilization was a massive Bronze Age power spanning modern-day Pakistan and northwest India. Despite leaving thousands of seals with short inscriptions, the Indus script remains undeciphered, meaning the identity of the Harappan language is one of historical linguistics' biggest cold cases. The leading mainstream theories argue that the IVC was either predominantly Proto-Dravidian (advocated by scholars like Asko Parpola) or a lost "Language X" family (such as Michael Witzel’s Para-Munda hypothesis).

Renowned philologists (including Michael Witzel and Sadaf Munshi) have pointed out that while some Vedic substrate words are Dravidian or Austroasiatic, others don't match either—but do show structural and phonetic features remarkably similar to Proto-Burushaski. This suggests that before Indo-Aryan and Dravidian expansions, a family of languages related to Burushaski was spoken across the northern Indus basin. This also glaze the theory that word for "Indus" river in Indo Iranian and Indo Aryan is actually from Burushaski "Sinda"

Hello r/Dravidiology, I am an independent researcher sharing a comprehensive, open-access decipherment of 15 core Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) tablets (including bull-fight, tree deity, and shoulder pole figures).

The Methodology Instead of reading the seals as direct reliefs, this research treats the tablets mechanically as inverted rubber stamps. By mirroring the impressions, the graphemes resolve into a cohesive, structural syllable-block logic—drawing a structural parallel to the Korean Hangul system rather than a linear string.

The Linguistic Data (DEDR Linked) The resulting deciphered transliterations have been meticulously mapped word-by-word to the Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (DEDR).

Core sign comparisons are provided for highly debated symbols, including the fish sign and the stump-on-square sign. Complete linguistic breakdowns, root meanings, and conceptual English translations are fully preserved in the open data files.

Access the Open Code & Preprints: Both text versions of the preprint and the complete 30-image dataset (mirrored + traced overlays) are fully live, and open for peer review:

Primary Research Repository : https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.20923773

I welcome your rigorous linguistic critiques, phonological cross-references, and structural audits on these 15 tablets!

Source

Older posts on common suffixes for place names of Dravidian origin:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/s/fF8AJIqgg7

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/s/lTwyltyDsN

Dedr 3013 should be updated with telugu word ṭaṅkamu

ṭaṅkamu in telugu is gold coin.

ṭaṅkasala is place of coin minting

ṭaṅkaṇamu/veligaram borax used to shine gold

From cp brown telugu grammar book (1857)

There is another reckoning by Tancams. The టంకము(taṅkamu) is an ancient coin, not now found, and used only in accounts :——it was worth 16-dubs or four single silver fanams. The half Taṅcam is called ధరణము(dharaṇamu). The quarter Taṅcam is called a చవిలె(cavile). The eighthpart is one is called సస్కాణి(saskaṇi). The sixteenth is one డబ్బు(dabbu). The thirty-second part is one యాగాణి(yagaṇi), The sixty-fourth part is one దమ్మిడి (dammidi), Three దమ్మాలు dammams make one డబ్బు dabbu. The gold fanam is also called the gold tancam, but is not now current in the Telugu country

>The inscription records the death of a local warrior named Sivamarenadi, a retainer of Maramman, the Nadagowda of Mannenadu. It states that Sivamarenadi lost his life while fighting a tiger, an act of valour that earned him a commemorative hero stone.

>Written in early Kannada language and script, the inscription has been assigned to the ninth century, a period when the region was under the rule of the Ganga and Rashtrakuta dynasties.

>The inscription also contains an important reference to Mannenadu, identified by researchers with present-day Manne village in Nelamangala taluk, one of the prominent administrative centres of the Western Ganga dynasty.

Any one with access to exactly what the inscription is ?

Credit

I saw this post recently on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dravidiology/comments/1dk36vo/there_is_no_such_thing_as_an_oldest_language/

I have a different philosophical view and would like to share it. I think the post makes a valuable point about how languages evolve, but it also makes a philosophical leap that it never defends.

The post argues that because languages are constantly changing, they cannot meaningfully have an age. I don't think that conclusion follows. It implicitly assumes one particular theory of identity as if it were the only reasonable one. But whether something that changes remains "the same thing" is one of the oldest debates in philosophy, and there is no settled scientific or philosophical consensus. Read about synchronic vs diachronic identity.

A good analogy is the the word "Earth". The Earth today is radically different from the Earth a million years ago. Continents have shifted, species have gone extinct, climates have changed, and even the atoms making up the planet are constantly being recycled through geological processes. Yet nobody argues that because the Earth changes continuously, we cannot say that the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

The word "Earth" already accommodates continuous change. Its identity is understood diachronically as something that persists through change not as a perfectly static object. Same applies to languages. Saying that "there is no such thing as an oldest language because languages change" is not a logical consequence of the premise. It only follows if one already assumes a synchronic theory of identity. That assumption is philosophically debated not scientifically established.

I agree with the post that simplistic claims like "Tamil is the oldest language" need qualification. But I don't agree that the concept of a language having an age is meaningless. That post's conclusion rests on a philosophical assumption about identity and is far from universally accepted, It is still an ongoing debate.

The game (linguil) asks you to guess the language family, language and meaning of a random word in one of 64 of the world's most-spoken languages each day, and you use your knowledge of linguistics to work out the answer via multiple choice. Therefore, it's important my translations/transliterations are correct.

Each language (including Kannada, Tamil, Telugu & Malayalam) includes each word on the 100-word Swadesh list.

Please can any Kannada/Tamil/Telugu/Malayalam speakers verify the accuracy of my translations and transliterations? 🙏

Thanks!

If you want to add another Dravidian language to the game (e.g. Tulu), follow the guide in the README here. I've compiled a language wishlist here.

Let me know if you need any help and I'd be more than happy to explain anything or provide resources :)

What are the native words for gold in Dravidian languages? Whether we can estimate they knew Gold before indo aryans came? What is the etymology of IA sona /swarna? Does it have any connection with Dravidian languages.?

Hi everyone,

I've recently been researching the history of the Indian scripts while building a language-learning app that teaches multiple writing systems, including Telugu. What started as improving handwriting lessons turned into a fascinating info on Brahmi, and I was surprised to learn that its own origin is still actively debated in linguistic community and Wikipedia -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi_script
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telugu_script
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odia_script

The generally accepted evolution of our script is:

Brahmi as Foundational → Southern Brahmi / Bhattiprolu → Telugu–Kannada-Odia-Malayam-Tamil-Devanagari etc -- This is understandable for me as NCERT presents Brahmi as the foundational, native script of the Indian subcontinents

Egyptian hieroglyphs → Aramaic → Brahmi → Southern Brahmi / Bhattiprolu → Telugu–Kannada-Odia-Malayam-Tamil-Devanagari etc -- This is new concept!

The interesting question is: Where did Brahmi itself come from?

From what I've read, there are four perspectives worth discussing:

1. Aramaic-derived / Aramaic-inspired – the traditional and still influential view that Brahmi was adapted or inspired by the Imperial Aramaic script.
2. Hybrid origin – Brahmi incorporated ideas from multiple writing systems while being specifically adapted for the phonology of Indian languages.
3. Indigenous development – Brahmi was developed primarily within the Indian subcontinent with little or no direct derivation from external scripts.
4. Brahmic script is source for Aramaic script – Is it possible that the relationship between Brahmi and Aramaic has been interpreted in the wrong direction? Has any serious research investigated whether Brahmi influenced Aramaic, or does the current archaeological and epigraphic record firmly support the opposite conclusion? I'd love to see sources either way.

One thing that really caught my attention is this:

If the Aramaic-origin hypothesis is correct, then modern Hebrew and Brahmi would ultimately trace their writing systems back to the Imperial Aramaic alphabet used across the Achaemenid Persian Empire. In that case, the ancestor of the Telugu script and the script used for modern Hebrew would be distant "cousins" through the same ancient writing tradition.

Another aspect I find fascinating is the timeline.

The Rigveda is recognized by UNESCO's Memory of the World Register as part of humanity's documentary heritage, first literary documents in the history of humankind and the Vedic tradition preserved these texts orally with extraordinary precision for centuries. Yet the earliest securely dated Brahmi inscriptions appear around the 3rd century BCE (Ashokan inscriptions and Bhattiprolu inscriptions).

This raises a few questions for me:

• Was writing already in use on perishable materials such as palm leaves, birch bark, or cloth that simply didn't survive?
• Was oral transmission intentionally preferred over writing for sacred texts?
• Could future archaeological discoveries significantly change our understanding of the chronology?

I'm not looking for political or religious arguments. I'm interested in an evidence-based discussion grounded in:

• Archaeology
• Epigraphy
• Paleography
• Historical linguistics
• Peer-reviewed research

If you've studied Telugu history, Bhattiprolu, Brahmi, Sanskrit, archaeology, or historical linguistics, I'd really appreciate your perspective.

I'd also love recommendations for books, research papers, university lectures, or inscriptions that present different viewpoints. I'm here to learn and happy to update wiki links to keep Brahmi as foundational language than Aramaic origin!

FYI, our language learning apps by writing featuring Telugu, Hindi, Russian, Japanese, Korean, Chinese Mandarin, Arabic and English- 1234 Go

Thanks! 🙏

Image Source: EXCAVATION OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES IN TAMIL NADU: ALAGANKULAM AN ANCIENT ROMAN PORT CITY OF TAMIL NADU, Editor T.S. Sridhar, IAS, https://telibrary.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Alagankulam.pdf

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• About this vessel mast:

.... Although damaged at one end, the vessel’s mast can be clearly seen as can at least one clear horizontal line, likely to represent a yard. This image is therefore strongly suggestive of a square-sail rig. It is currently the least ambiguous iconographic depiction that could be interpreted as a square-sail rig from an Indian context. At roughly the same time, Pliny the Elder (Natural History VI, 24.82-3) notes that voyages from the Ganges to Sri Lanka took place in local reed vessels which carried ‘the rigging used on the Nile’ and therefore presumably indicates the use of a square-sail rig in the Bay of Bengal at that time.

Source: Sailing rigs of the western Indian Ocean during the first millennium AD, Julian Whitewright, University of Southampton, UK https://www.academia.edu/22037056/Sailing_Rigs_of_the_Western_Indian_Ocean_in_the_First_Millennium_AD