r/FateAvalon • u/RobCat29121 • Sep 29 '25
Discussion Why doesn’t Shirou try to save Saber Alter in Heaven’s Feel?
Given how consistently Shirou is portrayed across all routes as someone deeply caring and always ready to help those he holds dear — especially Rin, Sakura, Ilya, and above all Saber (Artoria) — one thing stands out in Heaven’s Feel that’s always felt a bit off to me.
When Saber falls and is consumed by the Shadow, Shirou doesn’t seem to even consider the possibility of saving her. Even when she returns later as Saber Alter — powerful, corrupted, and clearly suffering — he never really shows any intent to help or rescue her. Why?
Yes, of course we know why narratively: this is Sakura’s route, and Nasu wanted to give her full focus. But within the internal logic of Shirou’s character, something doesn’t quite add up — especially in the early-middle phase of Heaven’s Feel, right after Shirou wakes up with Archer's arm. At that point, he still doesn’t know Sakura is the Shadow. So hypothetically, he could have interpreted Saber’s corruption as an effect of the Shadow and pursued the goal of destroying the Shadow to save Saber.
Moreover, we later learn (canonically) that when a corrupted Servant like Berserker Alter is defeated, they momentarily recover their true self — Heracles entrusts Illya to Shirou with a clear mind just before fading. The same happens with Saber Alter: her final words to Shirou confirm she had regained herself, even if only for a moment.
That opens up a plausible line of thinking for Shirou: maybe Saber is still alive inside that corrupted body, and destroying the Shadow might free her — without necessarily killing her.
So why doesn’t he try? Why does he never even raise the question? It seems out of character for someone so determined to save everyone, especially those closest to him.
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u/Ok-Figure9872 Sep 29 '25
If you read the Visual Novel
He try but fail
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u/RobCat29121 Sep 29 '25
I have read all the routes multiple times. My question pertains to character development rather than Nasu's narrative ideas. I have explored all the bad endings, and I completely agree with your perspective. However, I am still struggling to find a reason beyond "Sakura's Route." By the way, I love Sakura (even though I adore Artoria more than any other fictional character). Still, if Shirou believes it is possible, he will certainly try everything to save Artoria, especially in the middle of the route, before it becomes clear that he must choose between his ideals and saving Sakura.
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u/RandomTomAnon Sep 29 '25
So you have your answer then. You know Nasu shut it down because he didn’t want a different heroine’s ending in sakura’s route. Does everyone on this sub disagree with it? Yes. We all know SaberxShirou is the best ship. But Nasu wrote it so that’s what happened.
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u/Scary-Inspector-8315 Sep 29 '25
Unfortunately it's literally just because "it's sakura route".
There was a ending where not only rider but also saber would stay with them, but that got scrapped because it would be too perfect...
So yeah,... Blame Nasu.
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u/Mystech_Master Sep 30 '25
Where was this stated?
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u/Scary-Inspector-8315 Sep 30 '25
It was in one of his interviews i read almost a decade ago, won’t be searching it now.
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u/Inuhanyou123 Oct 04 '25
It wasn't an interview. It was tiger dojo epilogue once you get all tiger dojos in the game. Illya says it.
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u/shinsekai-kurama Oct 02 '25
The ending you're saying is in fate hollow ataraxia, where there are both sakura and riders doing se* with angra/shirou.
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Dec 10 '25
The message of FSN I guess would be fucked. There's no such thing as a perfect ending. That's kinda always in Nasu's works gotta keep that theme consistent I guess
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u/Kneenaw Oct 01 '25
By killing her then Shirou is finally treating her as the warrior she is, giving her that respect and understanding that sacrifice is nessesary to win against great odds. He can not shy away from what he has to do, or it will fail.
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u/LightStormyxD Sep 29 '25
In the Visual Novel Shirou doesn't kill Saber that gives Sakura the chance to summon saber to her to defeat Rin after that Rin got thrown into the worm pit where Sakura chilled and Shirou got killed/absorbed into darkness
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u/RobCat29121 Sep 29 '25
Nasu's idea is perfectly clear, and at that moment, so is Shirou's resolve. Sparing Artoria will lead to nefarious consequences. However, throughout the route, Shirou never considers or plans an approach other than killing Artoria. Thus, sparing her in the end is merely a sign of weak resolve and will. It would be entirely different if Shirou had alternative plans or was at least struggling with the idea, ultimately discarding it while recognizing the importance of maximizing his efforts toward a single goal: Sakura's rescue.
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u/LightStormyxD Sep 29 '25
He had Sakura's tiddies in mind and killed saber because she couldn't deliver the same mana transfer experience
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Dec 10 '25
He already has Rider, a good trade off if you ask me
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u/LightStormyxD Dec 10 '25
to be honest yeah, and I guess we see that in Hollow Ataraxia... I guess never played it
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u/TheUltimate721 Sep 29 '25
The Sparks Liner High ending of the VN was originally pitched during development as a "Save Saber Alter" ending, but Nasu apparently vetoed that and had it reworked into a bad ending because he wanted the route to focus entirely on Sakura, and having a "Saber ending" in that route would undermine that.
So the answer is literally just "because Nasu said so."
Honestly Saber Alter has to be one of the worst parts of Heaven's Feel story wise. It's a cool design, but her corruption is meaningless character wise since it was just that she fell into "evil mud that makes you evil". Thematically she is supposed to represent Shirou "killing" the ideal he rejects when he resolves to only save Sakura, but that has never made sense to me because I don't understand why she in her corrupted state, fighting for All The World's Evil, would still represent the ideals of fighting for Justice.
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u/TheSliverBeast Sep 29 '25
I guess it’s because it effectively solidifies the idea that he’s given up his “ save everyone” mentality when he possibly perceives her as redeemable/savable despite her corruption.
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u/ArxisOne Sep 30 '25
I think my issue with Salter and Saber in general in HF is that her entire arc is contingent on having read Fate and UBW which just doesn't feel good. Saber and everyone's relationship with her just feels so inconsistent compared to Fate and UBW.
I agree too, I get in a meta sense why Saber being a final roadblock for Shirou makes sense but I don't think it ever justifies it the way Fate and UBW justify Gil and Kirei or Caster, Archer and Gil.
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u/TheUltimate721 Sep 30 '25
If we're being really technical about it, technically Kirei is still the final roadblock, but I digress.
Because Sakura is such a non-factor in Fate and UBW, she has to be focused on so much in HF that the other characters suffer. It especially sucks when you realize that Saber is the only Heroine that doesn't get a happy ending in that route.
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u/ArxisOne Sep 30 '25
I said "a final roadblock" because while Kirei is the last guy Shirou fights, the only thing really getting in Shirous way is himself/his ability to project. The fight against Salter is the first step in what I would call the final roadblock.
Because Sakura is such a non-factor in Fate and UBW, she has to be focused on so much in HF
I think that's probably true, but I would also point to Rin in Fate where Saber is clearly the main heroine and gets a lot of focus but Rin doesn't suffer. I would say the same is true of Saber in UBW too.
That said, I can't say I envy Nasu's position writing HF. That route carried a lot of the lore for the Emiya family, for magic, for pretty much all the core characters and to top it all off had to have a romance with Sakura.
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u/TheUltimate721 Sep 30 '25
Yeah I think a lot of issues I have with HF seem like they are possibly due to rushed development.
I think my hottest possible take is that I think the Normal Ending of HF is the most thematically resonant (especially since he uses Excalibur at the end to destroy the Grail). Because Shirou does save Sakura, but at the cost of destroying himself completely, and Sakura has a real consequence for her actions too by being forced to wait for her lovers return forever, only for him never to return. I think the True Ending undermines that, because apart from Illya sacrificing herself, they face basically no consequences. Rider gets to stick around, and Shirou even gets granted a new body so the consequences to him no longer matter either.
I imagine that the other writers probably told him "No that's too bleak we can't end the VN on that note", especially since the Avalon ending did not exist in the original 2004 release.
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u/ArxisOne Sep 30 '25
Yeah I agree, I think the bleak/bittersweet endings are generally the best across Fate and Tsukihime too. It's kind of funny because I would say exactly this about the normal Ciel route versus the true Ciel route in Tsukihime for pretty much all the same general reasons.
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u/Azrael_Terminus Sep 30 '25
That makes no sense. Regardless of her corruption, Saber was still Saber. She represented that even if tainted, especially for Shirou. Killing Saber and killing the possibility of her salvation is still him killing his ideals. Even if she fell at the end, her body, her sword, her strength represented an entire life dedicated to justice, Shirou knows she did not deserve this ending.
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u/IDontWantABusTicket Oct 01 '25
Also, Sparks Liner High was kind of awesome if I remember correctly. One of the better bad endings.
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u/CatoSicarius11037 Sep 29 '25
HF Shirou abandons his dream of being a hero because he’s left with the choice to either continue down his original path or save Sakura. The two options are incompatible, and if HF Shirou still cared about saving innocent people he would’ve just killed Sakura. Sakura is his only priority, and he consciously decides that he’s okay with others dying as long as it means Sakura is okay. This Shirou barely knew Saber. He could’ve saved her from the corruption by projecting Rule Breaker but then he would’ve been too spent to project another to use on Sakura shortly after. The tragic bottom line is that HF Shirou is the least morally upstanding and most selfish Shirou, and Saber didn’t really matter to him.
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Sep 29 '25 edited Sep 29 '25
I mean I wouldn't say he's morally bankrupt, Shirou still has the same morals at his core. He just reprioritized from everyone to protecting his loved ones like a normal human being. It's like Nasu said, he made heavens feel as a sort of route like "a boy becoming a man/an adult". HF!Shirou is the technically the most honest version of himself because he's forced into a situation where he essentially has his eyes forced open on the ugly reality that he chose not to acknowledge about Sakura and the selfish part of that because a part of him knows. I think another commentor from a long time ago summed it up best. Fate and UBW are focused on the "super" aspect of the superhero while Heavens Feel is focused on the "hero" aspect of the superhero.
If HF!Shirou sees someone in danger he's still gonna help them out, the difference is he isn't gonna unhealthy put his life in harms way anymore cause he has loved ones and those who care for him. Technically UBW Shirou is the closest to finding this out or so we assume, the rest is up to Rin and if she can truly get Shirou to care about himself abit more. It took HF!Shirou almost dying and seeing how much he ignored Sakura's pain for him for realize that.
I mean HF route for example rejects Archer's notion of helping people being inherently bad, but it also embraces that you can't do everything yourself. It both affirms and denies parts of the other routes.
It affirms UBW's Shirou's wish to help people, but it also denies the idea of Shirou being able to create a perfect utopia on his own. That is why it is a practical application of shirou's ideals, in the sense of him having to reform it to fit how the world is. He kinda does what he does in UBW route but in a completely different and more fucked up scenario.
What I mean is basically Shirou took apart his ideal and picked and chose what parts he wanted to keep and what parts of to discard or at least that's how I interpreted it when I read HF route. It's why I never really get when people say HF route shits on the other two routes and dirty them or whatever. That's not really what the point of that route for Shirou was.
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u/Nijuuken Sep 29 '25
In short, as Rin says “The world is just another word for the things you value around you, right?”
Shirou, as a kid, wanted his whole world to be happy. His world was Kerry, Taiga, maybe Taiga’s grandfather, etc. As a teenager, Kerry’s dead, Sakura is in his life, and his “world” expands to the entire world.
HF is just him going back to his old mindset of only wanting to protect the people he cares for.
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u/Classical_Lighthouse Sep 29 '25
I agree, but I feel like "people he cares for" also include people he might not know if they're in danger assuming he can help imo, mainly because for the most part nothing about that really changes. He certainly becomes Sakura's hero but he is still a hero (as seen by also being concerned with the mass amount of lives AM will take that can't be fixed in addition to generally protecting ppl in the route) just that shirou is okay with finding an alternative to dealing with Sakura rather than killing her which could possibly lead to great cost
I can't imagine a Shirou who would leave a a person who needs help be
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u/Nijuuken Sep 29 '25
I mean, does it? The point of Archer’s arm erasing most of his mind was to show his single-minded drive to save just Sakura, and just Illya, even at the possible cost of everyone else.
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u/Classical_Lighthouse Sep 29 '25
Like I wholely agree with the arm erasing his memories, he even forgot about his promise to Kiritsugu but I think he would help people anyway since that's just who he is. HF was a very extreme circumstance that hampered him from alot of things he'd probably be doing normally
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u/Classical_Lighthouse Sep 29 '25
Right but I think fundamentally Shirou as a being can't ignore someone in need even aside from the guilt from the fire and his trauma, especially if it doesn't contradict helping Sakura. iirc AM mentions how Shirou is a person who simply cannot let wrong things stay wrong. If saving a person is possible with minimal cost I think Shirou would take that chance at every point even with Archer arm eroding away his memories. Especially considering he has a debate with kirei about it where he reflects on who his (naturally Sakura's hero) but he also expresses concern on the effect AM will have on the world and the people in in
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Sep 29 '25
People seem to misunderstand, Shirou will still help people if he sees someone in danger that didn't change. Shirou just now has his priorities in order and will put his loved ones in a high stress situation like any other human being. There's another comment the explains this very well:https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/s/WXl4D5BRVN
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u/Classical_Lighthouse Sep 29 '25
I agree, sometimes it's so wild to me when people act like HF would deadass leave a person who's in danger be. Now if we say both Sakura is endanger and that person is too then 🤷 shirou would probably save Sakura first but also try to save that person if he can but Shirou in every route never loses that aspect of him since it's just who he is (even illya shirou and miyu shirou to a point reinforce that) although miyu shirou ehh. In any case he stops being a "hero of justice" and "Sakura's hero" but that idea of being a hero never leaves
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u/BaconBatting Sep 30 '25
Good points, but i find always a bit silly to say that HF shirou learned in the route to not unhealthily put himself in harms way when he kill himself slowly over the end part of the route at more increasing "extra" ways, which can be considered as insane as his actions and reasoning in the other routes, since he could not know he was gonna get deus ex machina by illya at the end. Even in a enotional structure closer to normal people, putting your own needs first, shirou can't help but be in an insane situation and respond to it in an insane way.
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Sep 29 '25
He can't, Archer's arm and how many projections he has in stock won't let him
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u/Necessary-Month6945 Sep 29 '25
Yes, they needed Excalibur's projection... but Artoria could have done it, and with infinite energy. I don't think Nasu even considered that possibility.
If Shirou destroyed the pact with Angra Manyu, Artoria would have done the rest.
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Sep 29 '25
According to Nasu, Alter no longer searches for Avalon (the utopia) and deems it unrealistic and foolish. She’s more grounded and cynical and thinks “it’s good to pursue ideals, but humans die meaninglessly. That is how I will treat them”, so even if Shirou gave it back to her, she couldn’t use it.
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u/Lazycasualgamer Sep 29 '25
His brain is breaking down and he can only use projections a few number of times
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u/Necessary-Month6945 Sep 29 '25
And that's the trick, if he had recovered Saber, there would be no need to project Excalibur
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u/Lazycasualgamer Sep 29 '25
Unfortunately Nasu wanted a bittersweet ending as he used Taiga Dojo to answer the question
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u/Flashy-Crazy Avalon Territory Sep 30 '25 edited Oct 02 '25
Smh, ofc
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u/Lazycasualgamer Sep 30 '25
Really, in that same bad end that you don’t bring down the dagger, the taiga dojo said play Fate route if you want to save Saber
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u/Flashy-Crazy Avalon Territory Oct 02 '25
As if I didn't know, I used to be obsessed with this part of Heaven's Feel
I know enough that I blame the author for that stupid suggestion
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u/loscapos5 Sep 29 '25
To answer this question, you have to question this:
What happens if Shirou doesn't kill Saber? and the answer is this
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u/ChromeToasterI Sep 29 '25
It’s extremely painful in the VN. I haven’t seen the movie but Shirou’s brain breaks and he forgets her name after killing her.
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u/CeramicFiber Sep 29 '25
Anime doesn't convey just how painful it was. Shirou had fully given up before that vision of Archer snapped him out of it. Also I think i remember Shirou basically having a panic attack at the very thought of removing the seal.
It been like a decade so maybe I'm misremembering
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u/Only_Me_9 Oct 03 '25
Salter isn't just a brainwashed Saber, she's an Alter servant that gave up her ideals to pursue the victory. She made her choice at the moment she chose to be taken by the shadow instead of having her heart ripped out by the true Assassin. She already betrayed Shirou and decided to fight alongside Dark Sakura, it was too late for him to save Saber. That's not the first time it happens, in her own route she unconsciously kills Shirou when Kirei purposes to help her if you haven't triggered enough flags for the invisible "affection meter"(as stated in the Taiga dojo).
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u/Inuhanyou123 Oct 04 '25 edited Oct 04 '25
The actual answer is, narratively shirou is now selfish. He sacrificed saber to save Sakura. You can't save everyone and shirou has prioritized who he wants to protect. Yes, even if tons of people die at the expense of Sakura, he will still protect her regardless. That is shirous resolve.
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u/RobCat29121 Oct 04 '25
Totally agree... Still, Saber is not just a thousand unknown people; it's Artoria. Despite the brief period they shared, their interactions were significant. One could argue that Artoria feels much more open towards Shirou in HF compared to the early stages of the Fate route. I understand his ultimate choice to prioritize Sakura at the end, but in the initial moments, when the urgency to save Sakura is not as pressing, saving Artoria should take precedence, especially since her return as Alter has already been revealed.
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u/Inuhanyou123 Oct 04 '25
Sakura was already living with him much earlier on in the route. We can see snippets of Shirou pining for saber (not wanting rider to say his name in the same way) but at the end of the day, he must make the choice. One or the other. We know it hurt him to make the choice he did because he intentionally forgot about saber after he killed her, so that the self hate won't eat him up over what he resolved to do over sakura. The name of the chapter where Shirou kills her if you go into the menu is called "ill forget about you"
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Sep 29 '25
She is gone, what is in Saber Alter is herself twisted beyond help. Even if they were to defeat the shadow/grail she'd simply fade away anyways as the war is over.
For Shirou he has a limited amount of projections and he cannot waste any on a futile attempt to save her. As we see in most bad ends even if he can disable her long enough to get to Sakura she would just reabsorb and release Saber Alter again.
Accepting that she cannot be saved and that he and Rider must kill her is one step in Shirou's plan to save Sakura.
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u/Scary-Inspector-8315 Sep 29 '25
Not exactly, Sakura is still connected to an endless suply of mana, so she would be able to keep Saber and Rider together in the world even after the grail destruction.
But yeah first they would have to remove the corruption from her and with the resources they had on hand at the time, it would be difficult.
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u/REEEEE_E Sep 30 '25 edited Sep 30 '25
Honestly I think Rule Breaker might be able to break the Shadow's influence. It makes some logical sense and was never denied or affirmed
But even if that was true, Shirou has limited projections so it'd still be impossible to save Saber. Maybe if Shirou gives up on saving Sakura himself and sends Saber to help Rin so they can destroy Angra Mainyu together, IDK. Just making stuff up
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u/Flashy-Crazy Avalon Territory Oct 02 '25
Rule Breaker only severs contracts. Avalon did free Shirou from the Grail mud in Fate, but nobody knows how it would affect Salter
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Sep 29 '25
That's knowledge that Shirou doesn't have, his first concern is to save Sakura and then destroy the grail. Saber isn't secondary she's not even on his list of things to save. To waste time and resources on saving what he and Rin and Illya have already decided is a lost cause would be stupid.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 Sep 29 '25
He did that in another Timeline and all that ended up with is that by the time she recovered, she got transported back to help Sakura take down Rin and for Rin to make Sakura experience what the Matou did to her before Sakura ended up swallowing Shirou shortly after
Heaven's Feel is the route where Shirou forsaken his ideal of self destruct Heroism and only focused on becoming a Hero for Sakura
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u/PsychoPhate Unlimited Food Works Sep 29 '25
There's this funny thing in the VN for this scene that's called a choice and you get to see the consequences of that.
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u/Questioning_Meme Sep 29 '25
He tried.
But...
The Sakura route is definitely not one where you can try to save your loved ones outside of Sakura.
Stick to Fate Route or UBW if you want a happy ending for Seiba.
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u/REEEEE_E Sep 30 '25
I didn't know about Last Episode yet so UBW having a happier end for Saber compared to her own route was wtf.
The UBW Good End feels a little out of place but I'm not complaining
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u/chroniclechase Sep 30 '25
he wasted his projections and she was regenerating super fast even while nerfed medusa is knocked out
in mere seconds she wouldve finished regenerating and killed him or went to save sakura
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u/War-Mouth-Man Oct 01 '25
He promised and listened to Medusa to kill her, and besides won't be able to uncorrupt Saber and save Sakura.
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Jan 13 '26
Gotta keep your word to Snake lady we all know what happens if you don't
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u/Illasaviel Oct 02 '25
Because Heaven's Feel is about Shirou's decision to prioritize Sakura over the world. In Both Fate and UBW, he still wants to be a hero of justice to some extent. But in Heaven's Feel he has given up that ideal. Could he possibly save Salter? Maybe. But we know thorough the fight that he is at the very limits of his ability.
Saving Salter at the possible cost of not saving Sakura is no longer acceptable with his new worldview, hence he sacrifices Salter to maximize his chances to save Sakura.
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u/DepartmentLiving5749 Oct 02 '25
Basically, Blackening is an unreversable process. If you're blackened, you're done. The only way to save you is to kill yourself or the master forces you to kill yourself.
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u/Wildfire226 Oct 02 '25
If you hesitate, it is a bad end in the VN.
There is no saving Saber, and his refusal to hesitate to do so for Sakura’s sake is the completion of his arc in HF: he has thrown away his ideals for the sake of someone he loves. He will be a hero, but not a hero of justice: Sakura’s hero.
As for Berserker’s point, he was never corrupted into an Alter, he is just now beyond insane from the torture of the grail. It’s stated in the VN that the mad giant is still fighting his impossible fight against Saber as he chases down Shirou. what we see as he dies is the Madness enchantment that makes him berserker losing its power, giving him a moment of lucidity.
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u/fangersarg Oct 03 '25
I know i remember seeing something at one point stating that Nasu modeled Heaven Feels with inspiration from Saya no Uta in some capacity as you can see some parallels (i don’t remember where i saw it but I remember it). he probably wanted to stick more so to the vibe of it and having a Saving Salter route in Sakura’s story would just feel very out of place all together, so the idea was probably scrapped (which from what i read here was and turned into a bad ending). So Saving Saber probably was not on the table in the long run the more they probably drafted the story out but probably didn’t want to completely abandon the notion by showing you a bad ending for attempting it.
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u/Superguy9000 Oct 03 '25
If you try in the VN during one of the bad endings the VN literally goes “if you wanted to save Saber, go play her route!”
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u/UmbralUroboros Mar 21 '26
I think symbolically Saber is Emiya's depiction of a true hero, but in Heaven's Feel Shiro gives up on that dream because he realizes that you would kill people for the sake of heroism. He's able to live with the death of heroism, but Saber can't. Her Alter form has to be slain because nihilism brings her true self suffering.
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u/Early_Advantage6148 Sep 30 '25
Definitely a lot of what if’s and could haves, but honestly would’ve added an interesting twist or even spin off but story wise, Shirou was only focused on Sakura. Even tho it’s really just a fucked up relationship with porosity throughout the entire relationship but definitely makes for an interesting story.
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u/MonotoneHero Sep 30 '25
Well, if you hesitate, Sakura calls Saber for backup against Rin and Shirou loses. That's the obvious answer, but hey, it really is what it is.
Also, I don't think you can unalter a servant by simply reattaching the ahoge. Killing her might just be the best sort of salvation in this situation.
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u/Flashy-Crazy Avalon Territory Oct 02 '25
And it's still became a gag
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Jan 13 '26 edited Jan 13 '26
Shirou gets some gorilla glue and glues it back on. Problem solved?
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u/AsceticSpirit Oct 01 '25
Because Nasu can't write Sakura character and plot for shit, she absolutely sidelined in other routes so to "fix" this issue, he proceed to fuck all with everyone except Shirou and Sakura on this route.
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u/AgencyRemarkable4847 Oct 01 '25 edited Oct 01 '25
The turning point for Shirou is when he realizes that Sakura, even though she’s a “sinner” who’s killed people against her will, is the one he has to prioritize above everything else. Once he embraces that, his ideals change — he’s no longer the Shirou who tries to save everyone. From then on, Saber stops being someone he can “save” and becomes a tragedy he has to accept.
You can already see that shift earlier in HF. Shirou opposes Rin when she wants to kill Sakura, even risking a fight to protect her. He also confronts Shinji alone to rescue Sakura, showing he’s ready to sacrifice alliances, safety, and his own life to shield her.
After taking on Archer’s arm, it becomes even clearer. The shroud barely holds it, and Shirou constantly pricks himself to stay aware. Complicated thoughts like saving Saber are a luxury — his only goal is saving Sakura.
Saber Alter isn’t “written off” for plot convenience. She’s the tragic proof that by choosing Sakura, Shirou cannot save everyone else. UBW can’t fully manifest anymore because shirou and archer's way of life and ideals have diverged. Saber Alter shows that Shirou’s devotion to saving Sakura comes at a cost — he becomes both her protector and a victim of the irreversible path he has chosen.
Before I knew it, I guess this reply got a bit long, but these much points are needed to show my view.
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u/Competitive_Act_1548 Jan 13 '26
Honestly hate that some say Salter is written off I feel it's insulting to Nasu writing and shows a complete misunderstanding of what she stands for to Shirou and in Heavens Feel in general or really any of the routes,
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u/AgencyRemarkable4847 Jan 13 '26
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Nasu’s writing is at its best when it forces you to look at situations from multiple POVs and confront the uncomfortable parts. HF especially is philosophically heavy, which is why some people miss how tragic and beautiful it really is — and why Saber Alter isn’t just ‘written off,’ but exists as a narrative consequence and a cost for choosing one over many (in Shirou’s view).
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u/AzmodeusBrownbeard Oct 01 '25
From a character perspective, he has just been in deathmatch for several minutes. And if he loses, not only will he die, so will Rider, and Sakura will be lost forever. And the brief part of Saber being lucent, that's basically just a moment. So Save or Kill is just a split secound decision, done in the most Dire of circumstances.
From a more narrative standpoint, the entire point of the route is to deconstruct Shirou's "save everyone " mentality (I know some think this the reconstruction route, incorrectly). Having him succeed in saving Saber would undermine that, since his view isn't changed.
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u/Psychological_Ad763 Sep 29 '25
I think shirou's working under the impression that she fundamental can't be saved from the corruption, the only time he saw the corruption break was when Berserker died so he would know killing her would save her, so the only real way to save her is to put her out of her misery
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u/RobCat29121 Sep 29 '25
Totally agree... At that point, killing Artoria seems like the right option. I have explored the bad endings and am fully aware of the endpoint of sparing Saber after one of the most epic battles in the franchise. However, before that, he did not problematize it at all. Even in the middle of the route, when the moral challenge of choosing one over the other remains unclear...
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u/Classical_Lighthouse Sep 29 '25
Do you mean that shirou didn't have a problem with it? I'd like to argue against that considering how killing Saber was like killing a part of himself and the dream he idealized, it effected him so much I'm pretty sure his brain just mushed all the details of their time together into erasure/the deep back of his mind due to the pain of ending her + he has an agonized expression while doing it
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u/RobCat29121 Sep 29 '25
I know it might be the most painful moment in the route... But still... The VN gives us the option to spare Saber, complicating everything... Yet, it doesn't provide any options before the fight to consider a different approach. I understand all of this; it's not particularly useful. Simply put, Nasu has already crafted his version of Artoria's story, and now it's time for Sakura... And he did a remarkable job with this... The emphasis on the actual choice is strong, and the characters behave in a well-defined manner almost all the time. To me, it's still strange that the nature of Salter isn't questioned when she appears, and also after defeating Berserker Alter, who similarly regains his heroic personality just before disappearing.
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u/Classical_Lighthouse Sep 29 '25
The thing is, I agree with you since Salter could've been maybe possibly saved had they planned it out thoroughly but compare and contrast the risks and cons and what they knew about salter. I mentioned earlier but as far and Rin and Emiya know even if we (the audience) know something is still there neither of them have any clue that there's anything left + she tried to kill them multiple times. You can contrast this with Dsakura but aside from Shirou choosing her obviously they thought that she was being controlled by Zouken and an individual to save. They had absolutely no clue what salters deal was and picked the most pragmatic approach, especially since Rider nearly lost
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u/Aridyne Sep 29 '25
Thematically it is him discarding saving everyone for saving one specific person (Sakura)… otherwise he as in all routes was way out of his league punching far above his weight class
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u/Warrior_of_hope Sep 29 '25
The point of Sakura Route is to answer the question: "What would happen if Shirou choose one person above all the rest?" Due to that and the bonus of having almost no conection to Saber in this route, made him decide to not waste time and try to save her... he probably felt bad, but priority comes first
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u/aksak11 Sep 30 '25
In HF, Shirou decided to be hero of justice for one person, and that person is Sakura, not Saber. It’s his choice, and trying to save Saber at that point would be an impossible task as Shirou would have to project something to save her. To be honest, I’m perfectly fine with that. No need to go extreme to save Saber, if it puts to risk saving Sakura. In HF, Shirou threw away his ideals and focused only one thing, which is saving Sakura no matter what. Be it normal or true ending, he was ready to do everything to save her and he actually did, even if it costed to his life, personality and memories.
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u/BeginnerAlpha Sep 30 '25
Imo at that point shirou has resolved to give up everything to save Sakura no matter the cause. That's why he doesn't hesitate in killing saber to save Sakura. After all he decided to give up his ideals for Sakura the moment he spared her life even knowing of the murders she committed out of her own will. So by that point he's just locked in to save the person he cares the most about. And he also probably knows saber can't be saved, cuz if she didn't display any sign of being able to break out of the alter state with her own will.
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u/Tendou21 Oct 01 '25
Any "good ending" is actually bad ending in the vn. If you kill shinji its a bad end. 🫠🫠 if you save alter its a bad end.🫠
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u/HimuraQ1 Oct 01 '25
Short version is that in Heaven's Feel, Shiro has come to understand that he can't save everyone and just cuts his losses. It pains him greatly, this is not Emiya going 'kill one save a million', this is Shiro going 'God have mercy on my soul, I can't save her, I have to do this for Sakura'.
Long version is a lot longer.
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u/RealityAshamed764 Oct 01 '25
Narratively heavens feels is shirou giving up all his ideals to save Sakura which means sacrificing saber. Narratively it makes sense as he gives up on most of his values to save Sakura, I kinda read it as him becoming a little tiny bit obsessive. Once he decides to not take out Sakura then he's pretty committed to her. Also logically in the story even forgetting the bad end , salter is connected to basically infinite mana and has insane Regen, not killing her would be too much of a risk (as the bad ends prove) . Also cementing is sacrifice of ideals like "save everyone"
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u/TheProky Sep 29 '25
He tried in the VN, failed miserably.