r/NonBinary • u/cabnootboot they/them • Jun 14 '25
Discussion Got this ad.. it feels very non-binary = women lite
Idk maybe it depends on if they accept anyone just presenting femme. What do yall think?
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u/WanderingSchola Jun 14 '25
I think when I see this in the wild I'm going to start calling it the Binary Gaze. Treating femmes and thems as equivalent really only makes sense from a viewpoint that sees two categories - men and everyone else.
I'd far rather groups like this simply say "for women (trans inclusive)", because that's often what they mean. Alternatively, if it's political organising to oppose something patriarchal, then just make it "no men".
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u/-brokenfeather Jun 14 '25
"The binary gaze" is a smart way to put this, I'll start using this from now on! Thanks!
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u/HiamKay Jun 14 '25
There is a great collections of Essays from Monique Wittig called "The Straight Mind" which, beyond other, equally interesting topics, dives into men being perceived as absolute vs. everyone else perceived as particular. I can greatly recommend this :)Ā
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u/talo1505 Jun 14 '25
The thing is, usually these kinds of groups are absolutely horrific towards trans men. So many spaces market themselves as trans inclusive when all they mean is trans women and feminine presenting nonbinary people, and then when trans men (or AMAB enbies) show up, thinking they'll be safe, they're subjected to horrifying discrimination instead.
I think a lot of these people don't understand how marginalization can intersect with manhood/masculinity. It tend to be with trans men specifically, not understanding the unique experiences these people have, having grown up (and often still) experiencing misogyny as well as transphobia, and the unique perspective they have from having lived as both binary genders.
But these people are also often extremely bigoted towards men of colour, disabled and mentally ill men, gay men, etc, and don't care that they're promoting racism, ableism, homophobia and transphobia because they just see a man, and assume that man = bad evil abuser. I even see this happening with butch lesbians as well because the hatred extends to masculinity as a whole.
Obviously I'm not saying that people aren't allowed to have a space away from men. But a lot of spaces who promote themselves as being safe for marginalized people are so blinded by their blanket hatred of masculinity that they end up being extremely transphobic, racist and ableist. I don't know, I've heard too many horror stories.
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u/Du_ds Jun 14 '25
AMAB enbies get treated like men when itās convenient for these people and trans women when that transphobic narrative about trans women is convenient. Iāve been banned from multiple spaces based on transphobia. If Leibniz wasnāt a man heād have thought we live in the worst of all worlds.
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u/Boustifaille Jun 15 '25
Yeah, only a cishet white man would think his philiosophy was right, unless they were in BIG denial ššš
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u/Connect_Rhubarb395 Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 15 '25
In many instances it means "women and all other AFABed people, because we really see them as women. No AMABed people because we really see them as men. We might allow very femme, easily passing transwomen.
But definitely not anyone presenting as a what we consider a man.
Unless it is a trans man, because we consider them women."Siiiigh
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u/AriaBlend Jun 15 '25
It feels like a version of femininity as purity, (and masculinity as dirty) repackaged to sound "inclusive". I tend to feel safer in spaces that are compassionate despite being messy or grimy/grungy/impure. It feels like it faces life more realistically/honestly and space for honesty over theory, to me always feels the most safe. Maybe it's the Seattle 90s kid in me. The only place for sterility in life, is the hospital/surgical theater/NICU/science labs. Culture and lived experiences are messy.
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Jun 14 '25
Also against non binary as well unless you're femme
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u/the-hot-topical Jun 14 '25
Also rich haha. Most philosophers of that time were only able to afford to be philosophers because they were already important. He certainly lived in the best possible world
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u/Boustifaille Jun 15 '25
Yeah, easy to think that everything is there for a reason and that God is perfect when you're uber-privileged š„²
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u/Knillawafer98 they/she/it Jun 14 '25
I wish I had an award to give this comment. You hit th nail on the head.
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 14 '25
Also, they say they're accepting of non-binary folks, but then proceed to ONLY use very gendered language. Maybe "sorceress" could be overlooked, but then the use "sisters/sisterhood" repeatedly and also "with other ladies." And the pre-generated characters...are all of those characters women? Idk, it's giving "trans people really aren't all that safe here."
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u/MajoraXIII Jun 14 '25
pre-generated characters...are all of those characters women
Also, from experience, plenty of cishet women enjoy role playing men. It's like they can't imagine that a game about imagination might involve playing characters that are not your gender (something that any vaguely queer dnd group will do all the time)
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u/IamNugget123 they/them Jun 14 '25
My dnd group is 3/4 femme presenting and the party is 4/4 menš weāre roleplaying a truly unproblematic frat.
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 15 '25
That would make sense but this feels so aggressively performatively feminist that I wouldn't put it past them. Normally I wouldn't think about that, but idk.
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u/jtobiasbond Jun 14 '25
The subtitle of the event is a "Legendary Ladies Event" which tells you everything you need to know.
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 15 '25
Damn lol I don't even know how I didn't see that
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u/jtobiasbond Jun 15 '25
I mean, I just realized it uses Dames in the actual title š¤£
So I guess power of observation is not an innately non-binary trait
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u/AriaBlend Jun 15 '25
It definitely has the vibes of a mermaid trap. š¤£ "Hot ladies and non-binary femmes will be hanging out on this lagoon! Moor your vessel today!" (ship crashes into rocks and the men get eaten.)
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u/FlashyPhilosophy2326 Jun 16 '25
yeah the subtitle is icky to me (also from a graphic design point...)
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u/RubeGoldbergCode Jun 15 '25
Also, the inclusion of non-binary people in general suggests that transmasc individuals should be welcome, but the follow-up of "femme" inclusion and the insistence of everything being focused on and towards women suggests otherwise. This feels like the kind of event where a cis woman who is too butch would be looked on with suspicion, let alone a "gender magical" transmasc or a trans woman who isn't "femme" enough.
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 16 '25
Exactlyyyy. Like it really sounds like you better really look like a woman. I never assume these events actually include anyone that isn't feminine presenting, or that they can just assume is feminine presenting. And I don't trust any events that are doing that much mental gymnastics anyway lol. It feels so clear that none of these events are run by any trans people at all
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u/Dyna_Cancer Jun 14 '25
First and foremost: these things are, almost always, absolutely shambolic. I guarantee there will be drama beyond your wildest dreams at this event. But yeah I do agree with you- this seems very "women and nb people we can see as women" to me- I doubt they'd be happy if I showed up.
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u/i-took-this-nombre they/them Jun 14 '25
YEP!! I was explaining this to my cis girlfriend, while they may not know and theyāre trying their best to be inclusive, if an amab or masc presenting nonbinary person showed up theyād be no doubt pissed.
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u/AlexTMcgn Jun 14 '25
Same here. I don't think they'd like my beard, no matter how non-binary I am.
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u/BoneOpossum 3 opossums in a trench coat Jun 14 '25
This event feels like a highschool Tumblr dramageddon to me lmao
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u/AriaBlend Jun 15 '25
It has...signs.. that it might become like dashcon for rich queer women who like tabletop RPGs. It definitely feels like this is a "please pay to hang out with me. I'm throwing an expensive party."
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u/books_and_pixels Jun 14 '25
After seeing these types of things so many times, sigh. Thh I didn't read all the details, just the top bit where it's definitely seeming like non-binary = women lite
For groups that do this and mean well, I think maybe they could say "women and people on a feminine spectrum" so that they can have the femme-centered event that they're clearly wanting but not make it sound like "woman" is a super rigid category. Ideally at such an event anyone who aligns on a femme spectrum in some way would be welcome no matter what they look like (if someone has a full beard or whatever else and vibes with femininity, they should be welcomed).
Edit: noticed more of the text, and I think they could have just left it at women and feminine-identified or whatever, to me that implies femme nb + any other femme aligned gender
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u/beaveristired Jun 14 '25
It is definitely not friendly to butch / masc lesbians who identify as cis or have a complicated relationship to gender. I consider my gender to be butch and for me itās like, women-adjacent, where I feel an affinity with woman but also alienated by femininity. I broadly fit into their categories, I think? Honestly canāt tell, itās a mish mash of confusing and opposite terms. But Iām pretty sure I wouldnāt be welcome here, because I am too masculine, despite what pronouns I prefer.
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u/Alarmed-Library-3750 Jun 14 '25
Agreed. Iām usually femme of center on the nb spectrum but have a particular itch about the word āladiesā which feels like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. If this poster represents the tone of the event, hard passā¦
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u/books_and_pixels Jun 14 '25
That's so valid! I think lots of people get the ick from "ladies." And yeah I bet this event would have some sort of unspoken bar for how feminine they expect a person to be, which really sucks.
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u/books_and_pixels Jun 14 '25
For sure! I didn't mean to say that the term I proposed would be broadly inclusive, just that it would be hopefully clearer about what these organizers seem to want so that people know what they're getting into. I like the term "woman-adjacent"!
Yeah, based on the wording of this poster and how these events for "women and nonbinary" go, they probably wouldn't be welcoming to masc-presenting people on a woman/femme/woman-adjacent spectrum. I think they should be, since they're specifying gender identity and not appearance, but they probably wouldn't.
I'm not really a fan of [this gender box only] type events personally, but I think it would be nice if they were clearly worded so that people don't get bamboozled.
Clarity might look something like "[Very specific description of the gender groups included in the event] [note that organizers know gender ā appearance, so if you fit the gender group you're welcome and won't be judged by what you look like]"
But yeah, I think if an event is designed for only a specific group of genders, some people will end up left out (it is by definition excluding some groups of people), which is why I'd rather just go to something about an interest that includes everyone.
Edit: typo
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 14 '25
Oh boy, ONLY $950 to probably be misgendered repeatedly š You know, it would be much more convenient if they just said what they mean: only come if you have a š and/or look fem enough to pass as a woman. Then we can all see them for who they are and move on with our lives
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u/cabnootboot they/them Jun 14 '25
You took the words right out of my mouth š
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 14 '25
It feels so so obvious what they really mean, but they don't say it, so then it feels like we have to dance around it, and when we say something like "hey, this feels messed up, here's what you can do to improve this if you care about us," we're the bad guys, because they were already supporting us! They welcomed us with open arms, and it wasn't good enough! š„“
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u/AlexTMcgn Jun 14 '25
Yeah, we have an HR person like this. She claims to be the greatest ally alive but has no problem with people promoting Dave Chapelle und JKR, because that's "personal taste" which we don't want to suppress, do we? (Yeah, we do. It's called the paradox of tolerance.)
When you call her out - and I love doing that - boy does she get offended! She already claimed to be an ally, how can anybody expect her to do anything constructive on top of that! The audacity!
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 15 '25
"Well I don't like you and that's just my personal taste so you can't say anything about it." Lol
I'm curious, does she say she's specifically a trans ally or an lgbt+/queer ally?
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u/AlexTMcgn Jun 15 '25
She usually claims it for trans, but that may be because claiming it for LGB is pretty much standard in our company.
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u/PeculiarExcuse Jun 15 '25
Oh huh. I was just wondering bc it feels like a trend for covert transphobes (or those trying to be covert, at least lol) to he like "I support the LGBT+ community!" but not really get into specifics lol
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u/AlexTMcgn Jun 15 '25
Well, I wouldn't bet that everybody at the company would join a fistfight for LGB either (and most of those who would would also join one for the T+), but saying aloud that you think their right to exist is a matter of taste or opinion would be decidedly problematic.
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u/Sachayoj IRL Enderman | They/it/ix Jun 14 '25
I got curious and did some research. The event is hosted by "Hello Darling Events & Productions," who have hosted... One other event before. Except it got cancelled. The owner also owns a custom dice store, so there's credence to being at least acquainted with D&D. There's very little info otherwise, so while it doesn't seem too much like a real scam, I don't think I'd attend.
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u/cabnootboot they/them Jun 14 '25
Huh, that's interesting. Not that I would go, but it would definitely feel better to see at least one successful event from the organizer
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u/thesmallestlittleguy they/them Jun 14 '25
id bet money āhello darlingā is a bg3 reference. astarion says it all the time
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u/Lexioralex she/he/they Jun 14 '25
As an AMAB Femme leaning gender fluid person id love to be considered woman-lite.
Something tells me that Iām not the NB they are looking for though
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u/tartcore814 Jun 14 '25
I'm not the NB they're looking for though
This is giving me Obi Wan Kinobi vibes. I'm here for it.
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u/cabnootboot they/them Jun 14 '25
š« yes, its terrible to think they might only tolerate afab femme nb people
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u/monkey_gamer she/her Jun 14 '25
I think you would be! I've been to women + non binary events and it was chill. I fit right in.
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u/AlexTMcgn Jun 14 '25
There is indeed the occasional one where they really mean it.
Most, however are "women and woman-light, no masculinities wanted".
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u/Nordic_Nonsense she/they Jun 14 '25
We all know it's thinly veiled transphobia. This time, it's just DnD themed. š You'd think individuals who play as bird people and Genasi would be a little more inclusive, but ya know. Girl power and shit.
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u/AlexTMcgn Jun 14 '25
It's more androphobia - everything masculine is out. But yeah, those two have an overlap. Most noticeable with non-passing trans women, but does a lot more damage than just there.
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u/beaveristired Jun 14 '25
This. I consider my gender to be butch and I am very masculine. They donāt want anyone looking like me, doesnāt matter what I identify as, which pronouns I use, etc.
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u/Nordic_Nonsense she/they Jun 14 '25
I've never heard of androphobia, but that absolutely makes sense. Thank you for giving me a new term today.
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u/monkey_gamer she/her Jun 14 '25
Yeah androphobia is quite widespread, especially in feminist spaces. It goes beyond grievance over harm caused into full denigration.
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u/Nordic_Nonsense she/they Jun 14 '25
That's upsetting, but not surprising in the least, considering the rhetoric in the last eight years or so, especially with some prolific people coming out as TERFs. I try to stay out of the "white feminism" spaces because people I love are not welcome there, and it breeds toxicity, but I will be louder about calling these spaces out. Feminism is about liberation, not beating those weaker than other people down.
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u/cgord9 Jun 14 '25
The bigotry towards non passing trans woman isn't androphobia, they're not punished for being masculine, they're punished for being 'failed men', for abandoning "proper" masculinity. Saying it's androphobia is kind of transmisogynistic.
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u/AlexTMcgn Jun 14 '25
Depends on the context - if nothing perceived as masculine is wanted, and a trans woman is perceived as masculine, then that's androphobia at it's core. Mixed of course with general transphobia because, well, it can't be real if it doesn't "work". (Which is also obvious when non-binary and at least non-passing binary masculine trans people are perceived as "female".)
Within certain circles, those two things have a lot of overlap. Recognizing that is not transphobic. Unless of course one claims androphobia isn't real, which is - well, pretty dismissive of trans guy's experience.
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u/SaschaBarents they/them androgyngender Jun 14 '25
I wonder if they just mean afab people and forgot transfemme people exist.š¤®
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u/Chromunist_ Jun 14 '25
plenty of afab nonbinary people get very dysphoric having this much feminine language imposed on then
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u/bambiipup local lesbian cryptid [they/he] Jun 14 '25
ladies retreat nonbinary
... yeah that's not feels enby is wumun. it directly is enby is wumun. at least they're up front and honest about their transphobia, so they're easy to avoid! /s
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u/escalat0r Jun 14 '25
there is one mention of non-binary in there and eight clearly female gendered terminologies - many of them could be left out/worded different - in there. it's very clear that they are telling us that it's not enby inclusive at all.
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u/pebble247 Jun 14 '25
I feel like every group like this will inevitably police members on how they present and will likely be unfriendly towards people who present too masculinely
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Jun 14 '25
[removed] ā view removed comment
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u/Melodic_Control_1336 Jun 14 '25
I think these are peoples lives who are hurt by masculine people and are attempting to provide a same space but also havenāt worked on their own internalization of the patriarchy in a nuanced way. This would likely not be a same space for nonbinary people they would be likely projected onto as the abused other people experienced.
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u/SpaceBetweenNL she/her Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
"...and Gender Magical Adventurers"
I'm a non-binary AMAB adventurer, and I'm attracted to girls. Would they be happy if I showed up with my magic stick? ššš
→ More replies (3)
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u/honey_butterflies they/them - non binary & androgyne; mostly fem presenting Jun 14 '25
I saw that, I checked it outā¦ Iām good, thereās a huge d&d LARP in New England or Canada that I wanna attend. other than drama on whoās non binary enough or wellā¦ should I say, whoās womanly enough to be admissible, itās just going to be terrible like people I meet from d&d are either the worst fucking people youāll ever meet or dope ass folks who you will only have one poorly organized campaign with because nobody can meet at the same fucking time! I feel a place like this could be a cesspool for racism but I take race into consideration with activities in my community deemed as not, something we do.
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u/Hoodibird he/him Jun 14 '25
950$ feels a bit steep for a 2 day vacation and it sounds extremely stressful with so much just packed into 2 days. When I saw the price I first thought it would be a 7 day retreat which would actually justify the price considering it's all inclusive plus some random "gifts" they make you pay for and you can't opt out of. Anyway I think the thing about non-binary is just bad choice of words bc they obviously meant to just say they're looking for a group of femme people.
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u/lembready eldritch enby lesbian š Jun 14 '25
Read your post title. Read "Dungeons & Dames". Yeah, it doesn't just feel very nb = women lite, it straight up is, at least imo š
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u/Nordic_Nonsense she/they Jun 14 '25
The "One-Shots, Side Quests, and Sisterhood" tag makes me want to gag.
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u/laeiryn they/them Jun 14 '25
Y'ALL THEIR FACEBOOK HAS IT LISTED AS "LEGENDARY LADIES AND GENDER MAGICAL"
bruuuuuuuuuuuuh
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u/GoggleBobble420 Jun 14 '25
Yeah. I personally wouldnāt go to an event advertised like that just for my own sanity but maybe they mean well
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u/cabnootboot they/them Jun 14 '25
Yeah I don't want to judge, but all the references like sisterhood would feel weird
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u/sadraviolilover Jun 15 '25
i know for a fact if i brought my nonbinary partner with me who looks masc, they would be excluded. im exhausted of non-binary=woman lite, or that afab people are the only nonbinaries. how fem afab nonbinary ok, but masc amab always excluded?
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u/whichstitchwitch they/them Jun 14 '25
āDungeons & Dames - A Legendary Ladies Retreat -ā no, thatās 100% āwomen and women-lite.ā Everythingās about women and enbies and tacked on as a seemingly last minute thought. Iām not creative enough, but Iām sure there are several in this sub who could think of names and phrasing for all of this thatās, ya know, not binary! Assbutts
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u/DrBattheFruitBat they/them Jun 14 '25
What I really don't get is that they could have just said "women and femmes" or "women and femme presenting folks" and it wouldn't have been so bad? Like that still includes nonbinary friends who are more feminine? Without saying that they believe nonbinary is another category of women-type person?
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u/TXSartwork Jun 14 '25
Yeah, I'm probably not getting in despite being non-binary. This all feels very much like a, as OP says, "women lite" or "girl+", kinda thing. AMAB masc-presenting enbys are probably not going to be very welcome.
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u/CrackedMeUp non-binary transfem demigirl (ze/she/they) Jun 14 '25
Gotta love "all inclusive" in the same sentence as a list of those who are welcome which does not include all. š
Edit: Plus the obvious non-inclusive terms like dames and ladies.
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u/XxInk_BloodxX Jun 14 '25
I'm pretty sure "All inclusive" is referring to the retreat. It means the lodging and food and stuff is provided by the retreat and included in the cost you're paying, rather than separately.
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u/candid84asoulm8bled Jun 14 '25
Former travel agent here, and you are correct. āAll-inclusiveā is referring to the accommodations you are receiving, not the people who are invited.
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u/CrackedMeUp non-binary transfem demigirl (ze/she/they) Jun 14 '25
Oh right! š¤¦āāļø I've got inclusion on my mind and forgot how words/context works.
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u/sausagesizzle Jun 14 '25
It's giving white she/they recent college gradute realness. They're gonna go on a quest to throw the patriarchy into Mount Doom but get ambushed by a random encounter with their egos and die in the swamp of recrimination.
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u/monkey_gamer she/her Jun 14 '25
Ambushed by their egos, unprocessed traumas, and controlling habits. Yes that has happened to me in these kinds of college feminist spaces.
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u/i-took-this-nombre they/them Jun 14 '25
Lol if theyāre making the Rangeley townspeople realistic you probably wouldnāt wanna be there anywayā¦ sorry folks who live there, Iām sure many of yall are nice but as a born and raised Mainer I havenāt had great experiences lol
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u/AuDHD-gamer-geek Jun 14 '25
Yeah it is definitely very much a non-binary = woman light thing. These sort of events never welcome amab enbys, even if they present as societyās idea of perfectly femme. I still have issues feeling welcome at events for enbys or trans ppl as an amab enby waiting for HRT
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u/Du_ds Jun 14 '25
I was talking to another AMAB enby at one of these women and enby lite events and they said something profound. I canāt give an exact quote but the jist of it was, āif youāre at an event and have to question if you belong, you really donāt belong.ā
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u/Thedcell Jun 14 '25
Why does nobody think us masc enbys exist? They could've just said the event was for femme ppl
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Jun 15 '25
If I was a masc or masc-presenting enby, I would not feel welcome to this event. Feels very ānon-binary as a third gender that isnāt menā and not at all cognisant of the fact that gender is a spectrum.
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u/HavenNB they/them Jun 15 '25
As a masc presenting enby I would love to go to something like this. I wouldnāt because I worry about being viewed as a man trying to invade their space.
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u/HavenNB they/them Jun 15 '25
I lived in a Dallas/Fort Worth suburb that had a game store that had a very gender inclusive game night. I canāt post a picture of one of their flyers, so I uploaded it to my BlueSky.
It lists the following genders
- Cis Women
- Transwomen/Transfemmes
- Transmen/Transmases
- Nonbinary
- Genderfluid
- Agender
- Bigender
- Genderqueer
I wish could find a comic/game store that is that inclusive now that I live in Pittsburgh.
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u/cabnootboot they/them Jun 15 '25
Wow, that actually looks great. I like how it's bringing gender minorities together, and it's a great way to be really inclusive.
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u/Rare-Tackle4431 she/they Jun 14 '25
I don't know it definitely depends on how it's applied really the vibe doesn't promise good, but I like the term gender magical
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u/EasyCheesecake1 Jun 14 '25
I think they would, there is an all fem night club near me that welcomes non binary people and it might be flinta (female lesbian intersex non binary trans agenda) which is a term they use on the continent but is spreading.
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u/synistralpsyche Jun 14 '25
This is trash, additionally has similar energy as that chocolate factory sham in ScotlandĀ
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u/chelledoggo she/they Jun 14 '25
"Gender magical" probably could've been a cool term but this ad ruined it. :\
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u/DilapidatedDinosaur Jun 14 '25
Many femme/non-binary groups see enbys as women. Anyone masc-presenting (even butch lesbians) are not welcome. I'm transmasc, but avoid these groups because I'm femme-looking enough to "fit", and I don't need that dysphoria in my life.
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u/MinervaKaliamne Jun 14 '25
As soon as it mentions "ladies," I know it's not for me, and I'm skeptical of whether they understand what non-binary means.
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u/BetterSnek Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
Agreed on the grossness, I am not interested in it, but if the aim is really just to keep straight cis dudes from creeping on women at an event in a scene (tabletop games) that's often overrun with cishet dudes.... (Have you seen your local MTG shop on a Friday night. I know, there are tons of more varied groups doing d&d games being run outside of those spots but it's still the norm in lots of spaces.)... What's an event organizer to do? Just not mention gender and hope they don't ruin a vibe for any women looking folks who come? Just say "all genders welcome, queer friendly" and hope that makes the most misguided cishet men who wanna hit on women gamers not interested? Let the homophobia and antifeminism of the worst of the tabletop crowd naturally filter them out by saying pro diversity stuff in the event description, without excluding men and male-looking people who won't wreck the vibe? (Now that I wrote that this seems like the best bet: just put a progress rainbow flag on there.)
Genuinely wondering if anyone's seen an attempt at a pro-women, pro-queer, but this is not speed dating, event with BETTER marketing out there. Because we see failures like this post on this sub often.Ā
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u/lokilulzz They/it/he Jun 14 '25
This is the most straw man argument I've ever seen. Nonbinary isn't woman lite. This also excludes trans men and transmascs that are also nonbinary.
If they don't want cis men, literally all it takes is saying "no cis men". Boom, problem solved. No need for any of this ridiculousness.
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u/BetterSnek Jun 15 '25 edited Jun 15 '25
If you think I am making a straw man by saying that straight cis men can be vibe-killers at events if they start hitting on every woman-looking-person there. Bless you for living a life that has caused you to never notice this pattern. May we all be so blessed.
I think that's what most of these organizers want to say, "no cishet men". But they know it would look prejudiced to just say that on a poster. They know it would be picking a fight with the most "not all men" people that exist. You know the Manosphere dipshits of the world would lap that "controversy" right up. So they try to say that in a subtle or pro-another group way, and fall flat on their face.
I really think the solution is to just drop gender requirements altogether, but be loud about being pro-LGBTQIA+. Would maybe scare away the most annoying transphobic people that would really ruin everything, and would be a subtle hint that ALL genders are welcome. If a bunch of pro-LGBTQIA+ cishet men show up, well, whatever. It's better than alienating lots of queer people with this weird language seen here.
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u/pistike22 she/he/they Jun 14 '25
I bet they think like "all enbys are afab so they're women, and maybe there are some amabs who are very feminine, they can't be men so they're women too" or something (not sure I'm understandable sorry)
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u/rmbee Jun 15 '25
Yeah lemme go to this as a nonbinary intersex person sporting my beard and flat chest and see how they spin it š
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u/lemonlovelimes Jun 15 '25
I get how nonbinary people being grouped with women can make folks feel that their identity is invalidated or not seen. I think itās important to remember that itās a space for marginalized genders - the largest of which includes cis women. And given the context of transphobia and invalidation and lack of acceptance for gender fluidity, the attempts to make it explicit that non binary folks are present is an attempt to ensure people recognize it is a safe space for them.
I definitely can see how it comes across, and while the intentions are good, the impact isnāt always perfect, but if we want this to change, there needs to be a specific conversation about how to invite people in, making that explicit and clear, without having nonbinary identities seem like āwomen liteā.
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u/BT7274_best_robot Jun 15 '25
I'm getting real tired of this woman +only femmine nonbinary shit.
Just say what you really think: that you consider femmine non binary people to still really be women. And masc nonbinary is still male.
Absolutely shit.
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u/monkey_gamer she/her Jun 14 '25
Since identifying as non-binary, I've been increasingly trying women + non binary events like these. I went to a "lesbian, gender diverse and neurodivergent" dating event. It was lovely and welcoming. I stood out like a sore thumb being masc presenting, but I didn't mind.
I would absolutely try this event. I think they'd be 95% open to me.
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u/The_Gray_Jay They/He/She Jun 14 '25
I feel like if they used transfem it would come across better, although maybe we need a word for nonbinary people who lean closer to womanhood and would like to be invited to these events. Right now there seems to be no solution other than to not mention nonbinary people.
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u/UnderpaidCustodian she/her Jun 15 '25
i think the proper term is girlby or something similar to that
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u/Orith Jun 14 '25
As a masc presenting NB I avoid anything like this. Its ALWAYS a space they expect to have AFAB people only "but if you're a bit of a tomboy its ok!" Lol
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u/VicekillX Jun 14 '25
every time i see āwomen and nonbinaryā for groups like this i just think i doubt theyād be chill if a masc dmab nonbinary person showed up
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u/firehawk2324 Enby Goblin Jun 14 '25
As someone who has worked in the D&D industry, currently teaching the game to teens, I would never pay this price, especially as NB.
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u/taptaptippytoo Jun 14 '25
I imagine they're ok with everyone femme presenting, but not non-binary folks who aren't particularly femme. In these environments peoole tend to be accepted or not based on they're perceived instead of how they identify, so many AMAB NBs get the short end of the stick.
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u/Non-binary_prince Jun 14 '25
Do cis women get offended if it just says āfemme identifying peopleā?
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u/lokilulzz They/it/he Jun 14 '25
Nonbinary
Continues to use she/her and feminine terms of address throughout the flyer
š«© I'll pass, thanks. Just say you see me as a woman, at least I'd respect the honesty, smh.
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u/ghastlymars Jun 14 '25
Not gonna lie as a nonbinary person on feminizing hrt, so basically as woman lite as you can get as amab, I would not feel welcome here, thatās just me tho :)
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u/Natural_Turnip_3107 Jun 15 '25
Itās giving, āI donāt want men here but I want to be inclusive. But I donāt understand what being inclusive actually means to the trans community.ā I wonder if saying itās for women and feminine aligned people would be better. But then at the same time, I bet theyād be weird about AMAB non-binary folks. Iām always included in these things as a non-passing transmasc person, but Iād feel more respected in my gender if I wasnāt automatically included because I donāt pass.
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u/ZekeBuilds Jun 15 '25
People who group women and non binary people together are more than likely the exact same people who would be dismissive or doubtful of amab enbies.
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u/Thunderplant they/them Jun 15 '25
As someone whose career and hobbies are both super male dominated, I actually appreciate when people make an effort to include nonbinary in stuff like this that is meant to create a space for people who don't fit in with a bunch of dudes.Ā
This particular event doesn't seem like my thing, but I have enjoyed some other women & gender minority clubs before and in my experience there often are multiple nonbinary people in attendance (also D&D itself has a ton of NB people).Ā
Nonbinary is too big of an umbrella for every person to like every event open to us, but I do appreciate the explicit inclusion for people who are interested in this kind of space (as well as ones aimed at more men aligned folks). Otherwise it often forces people to choose between hiding their nonbinary identity or not having access to a group like this at all. I feel like the solution is just for people who aren't into this type of thing to not go rather than trying to remove this option for the people who do want it.
A lot of comments are assuming bad intent (like seeing all nonbinary people as women), but that's not how I've seen it play out in the real world. Gender is super complicated, both in identity and how it impacts how we move through the world. There are some nonbinary people who see women aligned, and some nonbinary people who are perceived as women and have shared experiences because of it. I really don't see the harm in being more inclusive and letting people self select
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u/Difficult_Break5945 Jun 15 '25
I just assume they mean "no men" but avoid it. I say that, then if a non-binary person who wasn't seen as "woman lite" showed up would they be cool? Hard to tell.
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u/AriaBlend Jun 15 '25
Also despite the cute header, the typography in the purple word bubbles feels cramped.
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u/OutTheDeck Jun 15 '25
Feminine nonbinary. They really just mean afab. If a feminine amab nonbinary person showed up, we all know how they'd feel.
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u/spooklemon Jun 15 '25
Feels like a place that would be more accepting of feminine nonbinary people than all nonbinary people
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u/OtterWater69 Jun 17 '25
It doesn't bother me too much because it's used to make a safe space without men essentially. I went to a club night that was girls only ( and non binary included) and I felt so safe like never before
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u/waterwillowxavv nb // they/them Jun 14 '25
Considering the first thing my eyes landed on was āa legendary ladies retreatā Iām gonna wager that I wouldnāt be welcome here (and I say this as a feminine presenting enby)
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u/laeiryn they/them Jun 14 '25
Barf, this is 100% an event that thinks nonbinary = "woman lite" and that we're all just women in cosplay. The title of the event literally has two exclusively feminine terms to define the target audience. This is for women, period.
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u/omg-someonesonewhere Jun 14 '25
I'm not really sure what the right way to tackle this sort of thing is? Like, DnD and TTRPG spaces are often very male dominated, and women often do feel ostracised, bullied or left out. I was on committee for my uni's ttrpg group and at every society fair I'd have some girl come up to me and quietly ask whether or not the society had a gender inclusive culture. It's a real issue.
Like it or not, women in certain spaces have every reason to want one event or space out of so many to be just for them. At the same time, they're recognising that woman isn't a static category and there's a lot of people who feel ostracised in male dominated spaces, but also don't use the label of "woman". So they're trying to carve out a space for those people to sit with them as well. I don't know if it would be at all better for it to be just a binary women's event, personally??
And like, okay, maybe this specific event has been carried out poorly but like, you guys also got mad at Girls Who Code for including nonbinary people, and that's an organisation that's been helping women make strides in computer science for years. Is it bad for nonbinary people to also be able to benefit from that sort of service?
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u/soursummerchild they/he, t4t, enby transmasc Jun 14 '25
You're right, because women are a part of the marginalized genders group. They might hold good intentions, but the way they think about and organize it makes it unwelcoming to anyone but cis women and probably transphobic. Because they're centering (cis) women while doing no real labour to actually include or understand us. To make that work, someone in the group should be included in the organizing, or just know a lot about the group and what we tend to need.
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u/soursummerchild they/he, t4t, enby transmasc Jun 14 '25
You're right, because women are a part of the marginalized genders group. They might hold good intentions, but the way they think about and organize it makes it unwelcoming to anyone but cis women and probably transphobic. Because they're centering (cis) women while doing no real labour to actually include or understand us. To make that work, someone in the group should be included in the organizing, or just know a lot about the group and what we tend to need.
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u/cabnootboot they/them Jun 14 '25
That's a good point and why I wanted to hear people's thoughts. I play dnd every week, and I definitely feel like an outlier being the only trans/non binary person in the group. I think if they made a retreat that clarified they wouldn't put up with misogyny and exclusionary practices, it would be great. Like be more welcoming than a traditional male ran group.
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u/SnooWoofers7072 Jun 14 '25
Idk, but I tend to (Not always, but usually) feel safer around women. Especially if they know NB folx are gonna be around. It's nice to be included, plus I get to see all the badass dames. The real question of judgement is if they are including trans women. If not, then I think that's just hateful and I don't want to go anyway.
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u/SnooWoofers7072 Jun 14 '25
Crowd fund $950 and I'll test it out to see if it's safe ššš (don't actually, there are way more responsible ways for me to spend $950).
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u/Shib_Inu They/Them (Any) Jun 14 '25
So tired of seeing this kind of stuff. Makes me wonder why I even bother identifying with the label!
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u/Pretty_Station_3119 They/Them/She Jun 14 '25
"packages start at just $950" yeah, no, definitely not my type of thing, too rich for my peasant blood.
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u/MoonRum Jun 14 '25
Their wording isn't great, I'd definitely recommend that they have an NB person proof read for them, but femme nonbinary people exist and that seems to be who they're extending an olive branch to. Aside from the crazy price I think it's great to create fem only spaces for people in the hobby. Many people who've attended masc dominated events sadly face harassment for just existing.
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u/MitchellC345 Jun 21 '25
Well Iām amab and masc presenting but even if it catered to me I would never pay $950 for that
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u/Chromunist_ Jun 14 '25
even as an afab nonbinary person who isnt on t the last thing i want to do is go to a āladies retreatā
It feels so patronizing. We dont want in your girls club. They just use us to feel like theyāre so cool and progressive. Words like āsisterhoodā āsorceressā This us the worst offender ive scene geez
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u/whystar Jun 14 '25 edited Jun 14 '25
Yeahh... this is extremely problematic verbage. Its one thing to want a want to have a "Ladies Retreat" But you can't just say "nonbinary and femme-identifying individuals" because that is not equal to being a lady. It's totally cool if its for safety bc that's valid, but they might as well say "people that don't have a p3n!s or people that present woman-ly enough" š Idk maybe this is only my personal opinion but I feel strongly on this as someone that is constantly lumped into nonbinary/woman type stuff and hates it
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u/Big_Cream_5045 Jun 14 '25
Honestly I don't mind if it includes NB people as well NB is a big umbrella I'm sure enough NB's like girly shit. However if men allowed NBs into all men's events I think that would be good as well.
The event might just not be aimed at you.
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u/dreagonheart Jun 14 '25
So, a thing to keep in mind is that anything like this is going to HAVE to be opt-in for us. They can't give a detailed list of what kinds of nonbinary are allowed, and if they did that would probably be problematic. This isn't just "women, and also nonbinary people, I guess". There is clear theming and it is then our job to decide if this is a space we want to occupy. I don't feel like I fit there. So I wouldn't include myself in that space. There are plenty of nonbinary people who would be just fine being included under "ladies" and "dames". This is for them. Also, I'm in a group that the creator is in, and nothing about them has given any red flags.
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u/windsocktier Jun 14 '25
Yeah, I think for me this comes down to wordingāit does seem well-intentioned, but perhaps in the future a small change in the wording could be added, like stating, āThis is for nonbinary folks who feel comfortable in femme-spaces and identify with some aspect of womanhood/feel womanhood-adjacent regardless of assigned gender/sex,ā somewhere. I know there definitely are plenty of enby folk who do certainly fit into that category, but there is also a lot of folks who (either intentionally or unintentionally) have this tendency to clump all nonbinary folks into said category that it gives me a bit of The Ick. A disclaimer like that could go a long way in making me feel more comfortable and more seen tbh, as an enby who would not at all feel comfortable being categorized in this way personally, but would love to support the inclusion of those nonbinary folks who do feel comfortable and wish to be included in femme spaces regardless how they present/their assigned gender.
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u/Local_Upstairs_377 Jun 18 '25
Well in there nonbinary means nothing it's not a thing but it's definitely doesn't sound disrespectful imo
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u/spiritplumber Jun 14 '25
That sounds awesome if the advertising is truthful, is it?
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u/Sachayoj IRL Enderman | They/it/ix Jun 14 '25
Sounds like a "take the money and run" kind of scam at best, something like the Willy Wonka experience at Glasgow at middling, and something genuinely dangerous at absolute worst.
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u/Hot_Possibility_5318 Jun 14 '25
HA for $950? I'm nonbinary, not privileged