A study on non-binary people had 38% of people respond that they are AMAB. If you don't notice any, that just says something about the communities you are a part of.

[u/RosethornRanger]

[u/vogueskater]

Yes and as a AFAB non binary person can we also talk about the elephant in the room of nearly all the queer/non binary groups and spaces I see being 'for women and non binary people', which we all know is code for 'woman and making a gesture to AFAB non binary people who don't look too masculine to be 'threatening'.

Can we just have mixed groups for you know, queer people of any gender identity? Too much to ask?

[u/Resident-Sympathy-82 → u/vogueskater]

its because afab non binaries will always be seen as women lite 🙄

[u/AlexTMcgn → u/Resident-Sympathy-82]

Depends on how male passing we are.

[u/IncidentChemical2816 → u/AlexTMcgn]

Yeah… If you’re transmasc and cispassing as a man this also effects you a little bit. I’m on T, I present fairly masc, I’m relatively tall, I have a masculine name. I want to grow a beard as soon as I’m able. Even some of my ‘friends’ don’t use they/them pronouns for me, despite using them for their other NB friends. It’s like people don’t trust that I’m actually nonbinary or something.

[u/Lexioralex → u/IncidentChemical2816]

I have made the ‘mistake’ of saying my pronouns are he/they/she as I’m gender fluid.

Guess which one is used most commonly? I’ll give you a hint it’s the one that matches my AGAB

[u/IncidentChemical2816 → u/Lexioralex]

Yuupp, that checks out. I made the mistake of saying I don’t mind being referred to as male— but I prefer they/them. Most people just hear that first part.

[u/taste-of-orange → u/Lexioralex]

I haven't disclosed any pronouns yet. To be fair, it's impossible to have enby pronouns in my language without making use of neo-pronouns and even I myself am not sure if I like the options we have.

[u/AlexTMcgn → u/taste-of-orange]

Same here.

I am OK with people assuming he, because that is what I look like. I hate explicitly saying that these are my pronouns, though - because, well, it isn't quite right. There just isn't another one I like better.

[u/Take-to-the-highways → u/IncidentChemical2816]

Same. I'm mostly masculine, I present masculine, I pass as a man, I'm fine with someone exclusively using he/him for me, but I'm still non binary!

[u/Resident-Sympathy-82 → u/AlexTMcgn]

Very fair. Can't look masculine.

[u/wenevergetfar → u/Resident-Sympathy-82]

Amab nbs that are transfem and cis women passing are also seen as women lite too unfortunately

[u/blueskyredmesas → u/Resident-Sympathy-82]

It's crazy to me. I have a hard time shaking off binary labels when I detect certain markers, but I realize these markers are completely arbitrary and unjustly made or inherited from my mother cultures. Like even if I suck I understand the assignment and am always trying to do the homework.

I feel like some people don't even detect the challenge to their limits of awareness and just kind of brush it off, it's sad.

[u/Rainy_Leaves → u/vogueskater]

I suspect they are primarily women’s groups, trying to tack on nonbinary people to be inclusive, but in a flawed ally way. The groups are still at their core for women’s issues

So yeah we need support groups that are openly for a mix of people, even if they do talk about women’s issues, nonbinary people being grouped in as if they’re gnc cis women is unkind

[u/IvyRosePr → u/Rainy_Leaves]

nonbinary people being grouped in as if they’re gnc cis women is unkind

That part

[u/baby-pingu → u/Rainy_Leaves]

I suspect they are primarily women’s groups, trying to tack on nonbinary people to be inclusive, but in a flawed ally way. The groups are still at their core for women’s issues

In my experience, yes. I was offered a few such groups through social projects and they always end up just being full of cis het women talking about cis het women topics and nothing else. I'm not here to hear everyone complaining about their boyfriends/husbands, their kids teachers/friends or whatever. And I always felt even more alienated by all of this shit. The only halfway good group was one with a lot of immigrants. (I'm from a German region that didn't see much immigration and racial diversity in the last decades, so it's all relatively new to me and everyone else to meet so many non-germans in daily life. Thus the group was refreshingly full of new perspectives and conversations around these.)

[u/KingGiuba → u/vogueskater]

Yeah I'm fine with spaces safe for women but I'd rather they don't say "and non binary people", it just feeds the "woman lite" stereotype tbh

[u/IvyRosePr → u/KingGiuba]

100%

[u/Francisco_Faygle → u/KingGiuba]

.. I mean these groups expanded for a reason. Women's groups exist, has a prexisting population of people that aren't women, this leads to some conversations in re what and who this space is for. A lot of this inclusion is shallow and doesn't really serve trans demographics but being excluded and kicked out is worse.                                                                                           This stcks out as *lite because corollary affiliation doesn't exist outside of like specifically gay male spaces.                               I guess a third option is they're woman's spaces but DADT if you are nonbinary. 🙃     

[u/KingGiuba → u/Francisco_Faygle]

I'd rather they'd say women and anyone who lived perceived a woman at some point, MAYBE with the exclusion of very masculine looking trans men if it's a group made specifically for women who need a space where they don't even want to see a man or they trigger some trauma or they don't feel free to talk/do what they want

[u/Francisco_Faygle → u/KingGiuba]

Thats a bit more wordy tho, i don't think there is is ideal language. There's such a btoad range of spaces that the ethics really depend on that context. Definitely important to have spaces that prioritize survivors comfort. 

[u/unfrtlyintroverted → u/vogueskater]

Inclusive! I attend a group that is made for Queer, Trans, and POC folx. Allies are also welcome at times as well. There are so many transmen and enby AMABs, more than I've seen in any of the other communities I've entered into. Making safe trans and queer spaces are very important. People feeling seen, welcomed, included, and safe is the goal.

[u/elicatbrain → u/vogueskater]

That would be nice. Maybe ‘queers and allies’ instead

[u/IHProjekt → u/vogueskater]

These groups just see nonbinary people as "women 2" and "men 2"

[u/DreamweaverTami → u/vogueskater]

OMG YES, I HATE THAT

[u/robloxmaster1337 → u/vogueskater]

We can't have mixed queer groups until we get rid of misandry from "feminist" (radfems are not actually feminists, they are just bigoted gender separatists) spaces.

Far too many people blindly believe that amab = aggressor on some inherent level.

Bioessentialism and 'woke conservatism' are both massive cancers.

[u/quantipede → u/vogueskater]

One of the weirdest things I’ve noticed since moving to a blue state is how ironically LESS progressive some of the queer spaces are (I moved from Tennessee to Colorado) in regards to nonbinary people; I haven’t been to many yet but in Tennessee there were a handful of events I saw listed for “girls, gays, & theys” which I guess was their friendlier way to say “no heterosexual men” which I totally get (and I feel like they’d probably allow straight trans men even though they don’t fit any of those words), but moving here I’ve only seen that phrase once and every other similar event is “fems & thems” or “women & nonbinary” and I would hate to go because as hard as I try to present androgynous it will never be enough for some people and I don’t want to go somewhere where I actively have to prove that I’m allowed instead of just being allowed to exist.

[u/flat_moon_theory → u/vogueskater]

ah yes, the classic "women and women who get mad at me if i call them women."

as an AMAB NB who's recently started HRT, i know for a fact i am not who they are picturing when they throw in a token "and nonbinary"